• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 07:51
CEST 13:51
KST 20:51
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL22] Ro24 Preview: Summer's End6Serral wins HomeStory Cup 2915Serral wins Maestros of the Game 243ByuL, and the Limitations of Standard Play3Team Liquid Map Contest #22: Results and Winners7
Community News
Weekly Cups (August 10-16): SHIN doubles1GSTL Returns in 2026!43Weekly Cups (Aug 3-9): Protoss get shut out7RSL goes to London! 2026 Offline Finals Nov 21-2212Weekly Cups (July 27-Aug 2): SHIN's big week0
StarCraft 2
General
Weekly Cups (August 10-16): SHIN doubles Balance hotfix patch 5.0.16b (July 16) GSTL Returns in 2026! SC4ALL: II Talent Announcement! Protoss AoE skill expression
Tourneys
2026 GSTL Announcement PIG STY FESTIVAL 8.0! (13 - 23 August) WardiTV Mondays 2026 KungFu Cup Announcement Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament
Strategy
[G] Having the right mentality to improve
Custom Maps
Nexus Wars 2021 GUIDE [M] (2) Industrial Park
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 539 Thunder Dome Mutation # 538 Media Blackout Mutation # 537 Hostile Territory
Brood War
General
SC4ALL II: Brood War Player Announcement 3/4 - soO BW General Discussion Rush's Odyssey Controversy [ASL22] Ro24 Preview: Summer's End StarCraft 64 is coming to Philly at SC4ALL II
Tourneys
[ASL22] Ro24 Group B [ASL22] Ro24 Group A Small VOD Thread 2.0 CSLAN 4 is Coming!
Strategy
Odyssey Mineral Stack Saturation Fighting Spirit mining rates Any training maps people recommend? Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread General RTS Discussion Thread Anyone here play Quakeworld back in the day? Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread EVE Corporation
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish TSM pausing esports and CLG Dead
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Power Rank TL Mafia Community Thread NeO.D_StephenKing vs This Guy From 1 Million Dance
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread The Letting Off Steam Thread Artificial Intelligence Thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
MarineLorD Fan Club The ShoWTimE Fan Club The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread Series you have seen recently...
Sports
MLB/Baseball 2023 Football (Soccer) Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread Simple Questions Simple Answers FPS when play League Of Legend on laptop
TL Community
The Automated Ban List Northern Ireland Global Starcraft
Blogs
LOCKPICKING NOOB
LUCKY_NOOB
Chinese Gen Z: Between Dream…
TrAiDoS
Cathedral Of CS And NY pizza a…
FuDDx
Please support my new stand…
Peanutsc
Hello guys!
LIN1s
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 6836 users

[G]/[D] Why You Lose and How to Win -Using APM effectively…

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
Post a Reply
Prev 1 8 9 10 11 12 Next All
Seiferz
Profile Joined May 2011
United States640 Posts
July 03 2012 21:02 GMT
#181
On July 02 2012 03:45 Shikada wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 02 2012 01:44 Snoodles wrote:
The low league advice rests on the assumption that more supply beats less supply, always.


Not always, just the vast majority of times, and that assumption is correct. This guide is very well written and everyone that puts this into practice is bound to improve, and the lower the league the more relevant this is.

Stutter stepping, blink micro and clever infestor use will win you a few games, a solid macro foundation will get you into diamond. Your choice.


I disagree. I came back to SC after a while and switched to terran + changed all my hotkeys and used filter's guide straight up to diamond in a week. That's where I had the problem of routinely losing TvPs where I was 50 supply ahead literally every game. The "more army will win" implies that you micro at least better than your opponent on some level.

The problem with a lot of these guides is that no matter how solid your macro is you're never going to get out of diamond if you can't dodge storms or split against banelings at a reasonable level.

That said, I think micro should be the number one focus for terran players since it's a lot harder to develop. If your micro is excellent and carries you to diamond, then there are only a few tiny changes to make to catapult into masters. As opposed to fundamentally learning how/when/where to engage from scratch because you've been a-moving your armies and winning off macro forever.
DeZrog
Profile Joined October 2011
Canada5 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-03 21:05:49
July 03 2012 21:04 GMT
#182
On July 04 2012 05:17 DeZrog wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 04 2012 01:03 DeZrog wrote:
I see a lot of players on here who disregard the good advice because...<cut>


Show nested quote +
On July 04 2012 01:03 MrLlama wrote:

I'm probably going to steal this comment and put it somewhere in the bottom of the guide.

Are you sure you're only platinum? because you definitely understand the game and exactly what I'm trying to prove.


Thanks - that's high praise. I'm Plat probably because I don't have enough time to play to keep my skills high - I've kinda hit the point where brushing the rust off is all I can keep up with, and that has put a ceiling on improvement.

You can feel free to steal any parts of my comment, and adapt as you will - maybe it will wake people up to what they have to do to improve, even though they don't want to hear it.

I wanted to add one more thing to those feeling discouraged: some people have a better start than others at SC2 because they have a higher native ability to do automatic repetition and/or multi-tasking, or fast hands for micro or whatever. Most of all (I've realized) that time playing is really what improves you... IF you are willing to spend that time doing the things you need to do to improve - and at the top of that list is macro, which means getting the "building things" so automatic that you can afford the brainspace to do other things, like scout, micro, etc. If you're really serious about SC2, you have to put in some "practice", similar to any sport. If you are only going to play the game for fun then stop worrying about your rank and stop arguing with people who HAVE put in the work and have seen results.

Also - MrLlama never said "scouting is bad" or "micro is bad". He said "macro is more important - worry about the rest later". This applies EVEN IF practising your macro, at the expense of other things, will lose you games in your current league! (but it will win you more games later).

DeZrog


Crap - what the hell? I went to edit a few things in the post and created a duplicate.

Help help! I need moderation! (you can delete this post).
Parskatt
Profile Joined September 2011
Sweden9 Posts
July 03 2012 21:26 GMT
#183
So many people in this thread that say stuff like "mutas require micro but it requires a lot of micto to defend vs them" etc.
OP said you shouldn't go banshee etc for a reason. The reason is that you dont improve by winning, you have improved when you look at your supply a realise that this time you got your injects/chronoboost/mules down a tad better than you did last week or that you timed your expand better. And the next time you play you remember that and start to improve even more. losing or winning a game doesn't matter as long as you remember this and practice.
NoBanMeAgain
Profile Blog Joined January 2012
United States194 Posts
July 03 2012 23:24 GMT
#184
if you want me 2 upload a replay i can...but i have tried the filterSC way of expo at 3:45 50 scv and 100 food at 10 mins and its weird bc i cant seem to get into gold. im 2v2 diamond(ik its a team thing) but i cant seem to win against top gold ppl. mid gold is no problem. but my trend seems to be (im top 8 silver btw) silver=win, top silver=win, mid gold=win, top gold=failboat. i cant seem to get promoted using both of your strats. ne tips?
'Widow mines will split open the earth, releasing the fiery bats of hell. The skies will grow black with the shadows of the medivacs, and they shall see no light but the harsh exhaust of afterburners. MajOr-16:1
BoondockSnake
Profile Joined April 2012
United States30 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-04 00:13:43
July 04 2012 00:05 GMT
#185
On July 04 2012 06:02 Seiferz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 02 2012 03:45 Shikada wrote:
On July 02 2012 01:44 Snoodles wrote:
The low league advice rests on the assumption that more supply beats less supply, always.


Not always, just the vast majority of times, and that assumption is correct. This guide is very well written and everyone that puts this into practice is bound to improve, and the lower the league the more relevant this is.

Stutter stepping, blink micro and clever infestor use will win you a few games, a solid macro foundation will get you into diamond. Your choice.


I disagree. I came back to SC after a while and switched to terran + changed all my hotkeys and used filter's guide straight up to diamond in a week. That's where I had the problem of routinely losing TvPs where I was 50 supply ahead literally every game. The "more army will win" implies that you micro at least better than your opponent on some level.

The problem with a lot of these guides is that no matter how solid your macro is you're never going to get out of diamond if you can't dodge storms or split against banelings at a reasonable level.

That said, I think micro should be the number one focus for terran players since it's a lot harder to develop. If your micro is excellent and carries you to diamond, then there are only a few tiny changes to make to catapult into masters. As opposed to fundamentally learning how/when/where to engage from scratch because you've been a-moving your armies and winning off macro forever.


I think that your post confirms what he is saying, though. The very point is that macro will carry you relatively high up, and that people in lower leagues (i.e., roughly bronze - plat) could improve greatly without learning some super tricky new build, or marine-splitting like MKP. Rather, it is very possible to make it all the way to diamond through the brute force that superior macro gives you.

In his original post, he says that in diamond is when you should have decent enough macro that you can start looking outside of your base more and more. In the Terran advice, he specifically says to start practicing splitting, etc. So really, your post lines up perfectly with what he says. You were able to win simply by macroing much better than your opponents up to this point, and now it's time to start practicing other stuff (while keeping up with all the good macro behind it!). Afterwards, you'll be pooping on diamond folks as easily as you did all the other leagues to get there in one week, because you'll have the control AND a 50 supply lead.



In your last paragraph, you say that you can micro your way to diamond, and then make "a few tiny changes" in terms of macro to go up to Master's. You say that is easier to learn how to macro than it is to learn how to engage. To me, it seems like learning to split, do multi-prong attacks, not run into banelings/storms/colossus/etc. fall under the "tiny changes" category, while macroing well is a much longer and more difficult process. Half the challenge of it is learning to do it while doing those engagements. If someone doesn't know how to macro at all, wouldn't it be easier to learn it without looking at their army, versus trying to learn it while still performing all those fun micro tricks? That's where macro usually falls apart. So these guides emphasize the importance of a solid macro foundation, where you then lay micro/finesse unit control on top. Learn to how to build an army before you learn how to use it, essentially.

No one is saying that you can a-click a ball of marines up to Grandmaster's. These guides just emphasize the importance of the macro aspect, which a lot of people in the game seem to underestimate (and perform sub-optimally, especially when worrying too much about control, etc.). To play at high levels, you need the good unit control, but you also need to macro extremely well behind it.
0Toph
Profile Joined November 2011
Canada8 Posts
July 04 2012 10:37 GMT
#186
I'm loving the written guides they look very helpful. I'll try them out when I hop online and I can completely understand where you are coming from with the misused APM. Thanks!
"If all else fails. Play N64"
SweKenZo
Profile Joined December 2011
Sweden82 Posts
July 04 2012 11:27 GMT
#187
On July 04 2012 06:26 Parskatt wrote:
So many people in this thread that say stuff like "mutas require micro but it requires a lot of micto to defend vs them" etc.
OP said you shouldn't go banshee etc for a reason. The reason is that you dont improve by winning, you have improved when you look at your supply a realise that this time you got your injects/chronoboost/mules down a tad better than you did last week or that you timed your expand better. And the next time you play you remember that and start to improve even more. losing or winning a game doesn't matter as long as you remember this and practice.


Exactly!

And thats why OP tells bronze-silver player only to build MM, gateways units or roach/hydra cause theres more important things to worry about than unit comps (worker producton, infrastructure and armyproduction).
Bronze->Silver->Gold->Platinum->Diamond-> ?
Postjudice(Oneye)
Profile Joined July 2012
United States3 Posts
July 05 2012 17:23 GMT
#188
First post!!!!!!! (been a lurker for at least 3 years)

I have been playing since the beta and I'm overwhelmed sometimes at how unnatural being good at games is for me. I've never been past bronze except after placement matches where I get put into high silver. Even with COD4 or fps games going way back to CS 1.6, I could never best my opponents.

With that being said, I think SC2 has the most potential as being a game I can see some real improvement based on regimented timing practice.

When I think about it, maybe I've been approaching all gaming the wrong way, not retaining lessons I should have been paying attention to.

I think this post more than others, starts to educate people in the sense that it stresses the importance of self reflection. I always fall into the trap of viewing the game from my opponent's end telling myself what they did was just too 1337 s4uce, and I have a life outside of practicing my keyboard mouse dexterity.

Identifying and targeting personal weakness should go further than merely being humble. Improvement requires being humble with the right recipe of competitiveness and investigative reasoning. Masters are furious reasoners.

Like many olympic atheletes claim. Winning (in their category) is 10% physcial, 90% mental, and I'm not talking about ping pong here.







There is no secret to balance....
Emporium
Profile Joined May 2012
England162 Posts
July 05 2012 18:02 GMT
#189
All the posts saying that that bronze/silver you can't just macro and defend against cheese just isn't correct, earlier in this thread i was of the same opinion, but i have worked hard on my macro, doing a 1rax expo, into 3rax with starports, BUT, i just made sure that i kept my macro up. If i miss a marine or 2, it isnt the end of the world, because if you defend well, bunkers, pulling scv's, then you can hold safely. i am getting regulalrly 4gated, because they see me, expo, and i just hold it off, because any timings they have, i just have too much supply, for them to win.

Im a top 8 silver, but im playing against plats/top golds, and still holding, and winning, because as long as you do hold it off, your 2 base v 1 base, and its just almost auto pilot to victory then.

Im not necessary winning in macro games v these levels, but if they try and do timings off of 1 and even 2 base, if you just macro hard, and keep up with production constantly and consistenly, at this level you will find yourself, way ahead in supply.
Remember your mortality.
Emporium
Profile Joined May 2012
England162 Posts
July 05 2012 18:09 GMT
#190
On July 04 2012 08:24 ImANinjaBich wrote:
if you want me 2 upload a replay i can...but i have tried the filterSC way of expo at 3:45 50 scv and 100 food at 10 mins and its weird bc i cant seem to get into gold. im 2v2 diamond(ik its a team thing) but i cant seem to win against top gold ppl. mid gold is no problem. but my trend seems to be (im top 8 silver btw) silver=win, top silver=win, mid gold=win, top gold=failboat. i cant seem to get promoted using both of your strats. ne tips?



I was having this problem aswell.

But this will be down to starting to understand how to use micro, when you macro hard and a move into your opponents base, at the lower levels you win, sure you might lose 5-10 supply cos you didn't engage optimally but when your 30 or 40 supply clear it doesn't matter. But losing that 5-10 supply because your engagements and micro isn't up to standard when your only say 10 supply ahead, means all the difference, if you play EU, im also top 8 silver, and we can play a few matches and i will show you what i mean.
Remember your mortality.
MrLlama
Profile Joined December 2010
United States454 Posts
July 07 2012 06:21 GMT
#191
On July 06 2012 02:23 Postjudice(Oneye) wrote:
First post!!!!!!! (been a lurker for at least 3 years)

I have been playing since the beta and I'm overwhelmed sometimes at how unnatural being good at games is for me. I've never been past bronze except after placement matches where I get put into high silver. Even with COD4 or fps games going way back to CS 1.6, I could never best my opponents.

With that being said, I think SC2 has the most potential as being a game I can see some real improvement based on regimented timing practice.

When I think about it, maybe I've been approaching all gaming the wrong way, not retaining lessons I should have been paying attention to.

I think this post more than others, starts to educate people in the sense that it stresses the importance of self reflection. I always fall into the trap of viewing the game from my opponent's end telling myself what they did was just too 1337 s4uce, and I have a life outside of practicing my keyboard mouse dexterity.

Identifying and targeting personal weakness should go further than merely being humble. Improvement requires being humble with the right recipe of competitiveness and investigative reasoning. Masters are furious reasoners.

Like many olympic atheletes claim. Winning (in their category) is 10% physcial, 90% mental, and I'm not talking about ping pong here.



Welcome to the boards You're right in that you definitely have to be humble. The higher in Masters that I climb, the worse I realize I truly am because there is still so much to learn. Yet when I was diamond, I thought I was a near perfect player. It's funny but once you accept that you really can improve and just focus on the basics and improving those, you'll do much better.


On July 06 2012 03:02 Emporium wrote:
All the posts saying that that bronze/silver you can't just macro and defend against cheese just isn't correct, earlier in this thread i was of the same opinion, but i have worked hard on my macro, doing a 1rax expo, into 3rax with starports, BUT, i just made sure that i kept my macro up. If i miss a marine or 2, it isnt the end of the world, because if you defend well, bunkers, pulling scv's, then you can hold safely. i am getting regulalrly 4gated, because they see me, expo, and i just hold it off, because any timings they have, i just have too much supply, for them to win.

Im a top 8 silver, but im playing against plats/top golds, and still holding, and winning, because as long as you do hold it off, your 2 base v 1 base, and its just almost auto pilot to victory then.

Im not necessary winning in macro games v these levels, but if they try and do timings off of 1 and even 2 base, if you just macro hard, and keep up with production constantly and consistenly, at this level you will find yourself, way ahead in supply.


Glad to see this has been helpful to you. It's good to hear that people are able to find out how to hold off 4gates and timings simply by having more supply instead of just sititng there saying "well if I don't scout it perfectly then I'll lose"

Keep up the good work!
www.youtube.com/mrllamasc << Casting & Analysis Videos
Postjudice(Oneye)
Profile Joined July 2012
United States3 Posts
July 08 2012 16:47 GMT
#192
Just wanted to say, I'm seeing great results with this technique. It's pretty exciting in itself to realize you are not panicking when you see 6 zerglings coming at you right before your 2nd queen and spine crawler pop at your natural.

There is no secret to balance....
MrLlama
Profile Joined December 2010
United States454 Posts
July 09 2012 00:33 GMT
#193
On July 09 2012 01:47 Postjudice(Oneye) wrote:
Just wanted to say, I'm seeing great results with this technique. It's pretty exciting in itself to realize you are not panicking when you see 6 zerglings coming at you right before your 2nd queen and spine crawler pop at your natural.



Good to know it's working out for you

And yeah, panicking is never the right answer. Just stay cool, keep macroing, and you'll be fine.
www.youtube.com/mrllamasc << Casting & Analysis Videos
Pleks
Profile Joined February 2012
United Kingdom14 Posts
July 09 2012 13:23 GMT
#194
This thread has been very helpful to me and I am noticing a big improvement on supply leads at certain timings.

I am a silver zerg player on EU playing against top50 gold every game at the moment and I have been having good success but am now starting to have problems with other players walling off so my supply advantage doesnt actually help when I am loosing alot of it before I can actually start attacking my opponants army from tanks or mass canons. If someone is turtling like this is it better to just take all the bases I can and keep throwing units at their base or try and go for some sort of tech?

JustinL
Profile Joined April 2011
Australia58 Posts
July 09 2012 14:08 GMT
#195
Still don't understand this obsession of telling low level players to focus solely on macro before learning unit control and strategies. There is no reason to think that winning a match by having more units is 'more important' that winning a match through strong unit control and well thought out strategy.

I started in bronze and focused on muta/ling play. As you can imagine, this style was very taxing on my bronze league 30 apm. But you have a mineral counter in the top right of the screen forcing you to play faster and faster until you develop strong macro. This method of improving ensures that you will be playing fast enough and be skilled enough to use the units you make effectively.

On the other hand, when my friend started playing in bronze league, I taught him to play very macro focused. I directed him to FilterSC's Bronze to Master guide for terran. He wins games through having a huge unit advantage. He loses games through terrible unit control and non-existent multitasking. His apm is improving very slowly. There is no 'micro counter' that tells you when you are playing too slow and need to micro harder. There IS a 'macro counter'.

Since this thread is about misusing apm, I thought it would be worthwhile to point out that while this guide directs low level players to use their apm in a way that will win games easily, this method also leads to slower apm improvement as you rise through the ranks.
MrLlama
Profile Joined December 2010
United States454 Posts
July 09 2012 14:39 GMT
#196
On July 09 2012 22:23 Pleks wrote:
This thread has been very helpful to me and I am noticing a big improvement on supply leads at certain timings.

I am a silver zerg player on EU playing against top50 gold every game at the moment and I have been having good success but am now starting to have problems with other players walling off so my supply advantage doesnt actually help when I am loosing alot of it before I can actually start attacking my opponants army from tanks or mass canons. If someone is turtling like this is it better to just take all the bases I can and keep throwing units at their base or try and go for some sort of tech?



Yes this is definitely a problem you will face at that level and it's where you will first start to really use decision making. I don't think you need to make tons of crazy army decisions at this time, but if your opponent is sitting there in his base with 9 siege tanks and a wall, it can be a bit tough to break and it's kind of silly to throw your army away into this. I think this is a point I should address more in the OP

If you find your opponent is mega turtled like that, don't be afraid to just sit back a bit and macro up more. Start adding stationary defenses (cannons, turrets, spines/spores) all over your bases and continue to expand so that he can't just drop you and catch you panicking. Instead, you will start to really accumulate a lot more money off of more bases and with this you can continue to add on more production facilities and maybe start working in more upgrades/tech. Eventually he is going to have to come out and then you can trade with him and remax much faster and stronger than he can.

There's a nice saying in starcraft: Whenever you're ahead, get further ahead.

Sure it's nice to know exactly when you can push to win and etc, but there's really nothing wrong with simply furthering your lead to put you in an even better position.

On July 09 2012 23:08 JustinL wrote:
Still don't understand this obsession of telling low level players to focus solely on macro before learning unit control and strategies. There is no reason to think that winning a match by having more units is 'more important' that winning a match through strong unit control and well thought out strategy.

I started in bronze and focused on muta/ling play. As you can imagine, this style was very taxing on my bronze league 30 apm. But you have a mineral counter in the top right of the screen forcing you to play faster and faster until you develop strong macro. This method of improving ensures that you will be playing fast enough and be skilled enough to use the units you make effectively.

On the other hand, when my friend started playing in bronze league, I taught him to play very macro focused. I directed him to FilterSC's Bronze to Master guide for terran. He wins games through having a huge unit advantage. He loses games through terrible unit control and non-existent multitasking. His apm is improving very slowly. There is no 'micro counter' that tells you when you are playing too slow and need to micro harder. There IS a 'macro counter'.

Since this thread is about misusing apm, I thought it would be worthwhile to point out that while this guide directs low level players to use their apm in a way that will win games easily, this method also leads to slower apm improvement as you rise through the ranks.


I think you're mistaken in believing there is a 'macro counter'. There is no such thing as a macro counter, just like APM is not a true micro/multitask counter.

I see people with 50APM have better multitasking and micro than people with 100APM simply because of how much of the actions are spam and pointless vs efficient clicks.

You say you can look at your minerals as your 'macro counter', well guess what those minerals don't show: potential minerals you could have were your macro actually perfect. According to your logic, if I stay on 6 scvs all game and constantly stay at 0 minerals, my macro is impeccable because the 'macro counter' shows I have 0 minerals left all the time. Does this seem right? Of course not, because my macro is horrendous and there are thousands upon thousands of unrealized minerals there.

The reason that I (And basically every Masters+ player out there) says focus on macro is because of the effect that it has. There was a recent article released showing the effect of additional marines in your army and how much of a lead it actually gives you. The main point of the article was that being 10% ahead in the army count didn't put you 10% ahead, it put you about 50% ahead. Every additional marine that you added to your army ended up saving something like 3-4 marines by the end of the fight. It's extremely hard to wrap your head around this and I understand that, but it's just something that you have to trust we have learned.

If we 1v1 I can sit there and mass up a sweet army and attack at you, and no matter how much unit control you have or how many flanks you do, in the end I'm going to steamroll your army and there's nothing you can do about it until you finally take my advice and start learning how to REALLY macro (not using your 'macro counter' but using real benchmarks).

First benchmark: Go into a game vs an easy comp and pretend you are playing vs a FFE protoss who doesn't early pressure. This means you will have 8 minutes of free time to drone and macro. By 8:00 you should have 68+ supply. In my games where the protoss pressures and pylon blocks and all that, I will have 70+ supply everytime. In my games vs an easy comp with no pressure, I will have 86+ supply. This includes having 2x gas, a roach warren, and an evo chamber done. That's a real benchmark or 'macro counter' for you.
www.youtube.com/mrllamasc << Casting & Analysis Videos
Shikada
Profile Joined May 2012
Serbia976 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-09 14:47:49
July 09 2012 14:45 GMT
#197
On July 09 2012 23:08 JustinL wrote:
Still don't understand this obsession of telling low level players to focus solely on macro before learning unit control and strategies. There is no reason to think that winning a match by having more units is 'more important' that winning a match through strong unit control and well thought out strategy.

I started in bronze and focused on muta/ling play. As you can imagine, this style was very taxing on my bronze league 30 apm. But you have a mineral counter in the top right of the screen forcing you to play faster and faster until you develop strong macro. This method of improving ensures that you will be playing fast enough and be skilled enough to use the units you make effectively.

On the other hand, when my friend started playing in bronze league, I taught him to play very macro focused. I directed him to FilterSC's Bronze to Master guide for terran. He wins games through having a huge unit advantage. He loses games through terrible unit control and non-existent multitasking. His apm is improving very slowly. There is no 'micro counter' that tells you when you are playing too slow and need to micro harder. There IS a 'macro counter'.

Since this thread is about misusing apm, I thought it would be worthwhile to point out that while this guide directs low level players to use their apm in a way that will win games easily, this method also leads to slower apm improvement as you rise through the ranks.


I'm sorry, but you and your friend are only two examples. I'm more willing to listen to every guide out there, including this one and those written for BW (you can easily find them here on TL), which do in fact advocate this method. I know it may sound strange if that's not the way you learned to play, indeed neither did I. But I recognize is it a standard that most pro players and guide writers recommend. I used it to improve and so did quite a few of my friends, but who cares about that right?

Unit control and multitasking are nothing without macro. Without a solid build order and macro it's hard to even see the balance of the game (which may explain a lot of balance whines). Yes we all like fancy unit control and micro, but I would leave that off until diamond, once your foundation is in order. And it's not like macro doesn't help you with multitasking and timing, it's not as boring as some make it out to be. When you don't have to worry about supply blocks and spending money, you will have more attention to micro units, and will more rapidly improve, than trying to do it all at once. You don't have to take my word for it, but it seems like common sense to me.
sfdrew
Profile Joined January 2010
United States201 Posts
July 09 2012 16:18 GMT
#198
I think a lot of high level players are out of touch with the lower ranks. Bronze and Silver aren't what they used to be. The number of players in each division is based on percentages, and a lot of new and bad players quit playing. You can still find bad players during peak hours, but otherwisw they are better than you think.

Telling people to A-Move their army and not scout in Bronze and Silver simply does not work anymore, and if you think it does, then you don't play Bronze and Silver. The skill gap has shrunk. You have to beat people ranked higher than you consistently in order to move up, and top ranked Bronze and Silver players are not A-move cream puffs.
I cant build there, somethins in the way
MrLlama
Profile Joined December 2010
United States454 Posts
July 09 2012 17:47 GMT
#199
On July 09 2012 23:45 Shikada wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 09 2012 23:08 JustinL wrote:
Still don't understand this obsession of telling low level players to focus solely on macro before learning unit control and strategies. There is no reason to think that winning a match by having more units is 'more important' that winning a match through strong unit control and well thought out strategy.

I started in bronze and focused on muta/ling play. As you can imagine, this style was very taxing on my bronze league 30 apm. But you have a mineral counter in the top right of the screen forcing you to play faster and faster until you develop strong macro. This method of improving ensures that you will be playing fast enough and be skilled enough to use the units you make effectively.

On the other hand, when my friend started playing in bronze league, I taught him to play very macro focused. I directed him to FilterSC's Bronze to Master guide for terran. He wins games through having a huge unit advantage. He loses games through terrible unit control and non-existent multitasking. His apm is improving very slowly. There is no 'micro counter' that tells you when you are playing too slow and need to micro harder. There IS a 'macro counter'.

Since this thread is about misusing apm, I thought it would be worthwhile to point out that while this guide directs low level players to use their apm in a way that will win games easily, this method also leads to slower apm improvement as you rise through the ranks.


I'm sorry, but you and your friend are only two examples. I'm more willing to listen to every guide out there, including this one and those written for BW (you can easily find them here on TL), which do in fact advocate this method. I know it may sound strange if that's not the way you learned to play, indeed neither did I. But I recognize is it a standard that most pro players and guide writers recommend. I used it to improve and so did quite a few of my friends, but who cares about that right?

Unit control and multitasking are nothing without macro. Without a solid build order and macro it's hard to even see the balance of the game (which may explain a lot of balance whines). Yes we all like fancy unit control and micro, but I would leave that off until diamond, once your foundation is in order. And it's not like macro doesn't help you with multitasking and timing, it's not as boring as some make it out to be. When you don't have to worry about supply blocks and spending money, you will have more attention to micro units, and will more rapidly improve, than trying to do it all at once. You don't have to take my word for it, but it seems like common sense to me.


I think it's interesting you bring up the balance and yes you are correct that it's very hard to see balance at this level when you don't have macro/build orders.

I have beaten many players up to platinum league with only queens and drones, and every single time I win all I hear is "QUEEN OP BLAH BLAH BLAH" or "ZERP SO OP" or anything of that nature. At the same time I have won with only marines straight up to the same level and it's the same "MARINE OP TERRAN OP BLAH BLAH" crap. Then all of those players come onto the forums spewing out their zerp/terran/protoss op nonsense and this is why nobody ever takes them seriously.

On July 10 2012 01:18 sfdrew wrote:
I think a lot of high level players are out of touch with the lower ranks. Bronze and Silver aren't what they used to be. The number of players in each division is based on percentages, and a lot of new and bad players quit playing. You can still find bad players during peak hours, but otherwisw they are better than you think.

Telling people to A-Move their army and not scout in Bronze and Silver simply does not work anymore, and if you think it does, then you don't play Bronze and Silver. The skill gap has shrunk. You have to beat people ranked higher than you consistently in order to move up, and top ranked Bronze and Silver players are not A-move cream puffs.


1. I coach players CURRENTLY that are in bronze/silver league. I watch replays, play against them, and watch them promote as well.
2. I play against players of all levels. Whether it's coaching or helping friends practice or whatever, I know how the different leagues play.
3. A lot of times when I play people at lower levels, I will play with restrictions such as: 1. I can't tech beyond X point, 2. I can't scout. 3. No unit micro allowed. 4. etc... Even with all of these restrictions, they attack with a 12 minute push of collo and gateway units, and my pure unupgraded marine marauder army is twice the size and just A-moves to steamroll them. Why? because I macroed and they didn't.
www.youtube.com/mrllamasc << Casting & Analysis Videos
emmagoldman
Profile Joined May 2012
4 Posts
July 09 2012 19:04 GMT
#200
Newly Silver Protoss here. Seen so many people advocate this route, I tried it today. So far, I like it: I've only won about half my games, but that's not the point now, eh?

Here's the one problem that I _do_ have: I have no idea when is right to attack in this strategy. It seems so far that many of my losses come down to timings, but then again, maybe I just need to Macro Harder.

Any more suggestions than 'a big army?'
Prev 1 8 9 10 11 12 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
GSL
11:00
2026 GSTL: Main Stage Day 1
LiquipediaDiscussion
Afreeca Starleague
10:00
Ro24 Group B
Sharp vs Shinee
Action vs Shine
Afreeca ASL 7693
StarCastTV_EN267
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Lowko391
PiGStarcraft286
herO (SOOP) 91
Maru 70
Rogue 58
SHIN 58
Cure 38
Zoun (SOOP) 37
Rex 24
aLtNXZ 18
EnDerr 4
StarCraft: Brood War
Calm 14113
Shuttle 2935
Jaedong 2167
Horang2 1726
BeSt 1493
EffOrt 828
Light 498
Soulkey 321
ZerO 189
Stork 181
[ Show more ]
Larva 165
Rush 127
ToSsGirL 117
Hyun 88
Snow 68
Killer 45
JYJ 44
Bale 33
soO 30
Sacsri 29
JulyZerg 27
Hm[arnc] 27
sSak 27
[sc1f]eonzerg 25
sorry 19
Free 17
Noble 17
IntoTheRainbow 11
ajuk12(nOOB) 9
zelot 6
Dota 2
Dendi1732
XBOCT1682
canceldota117
BananaSlamJamma11
Counter-Strike
shoxiejesuss1192
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King91
Heroes of the Storm
Trikslyr36
Other Games
B2W.Neo466
crisheroes262
Hui .149
DeMusliM133
Liquid`LucifroN89
QueenE29
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick511
StarCraft 2
IntoTheiNu 510
StarCraft: Brood War
UltimateBattle 193
Other Games
BasetradeTV34
StarCraft: Brood War
lovetv 13
[ Show 12 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• CranKy Ducklings SOOP93
• StrangeGG 59
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV616
League of Legends
• TFBlade195
Upcoming Events
PiGosaur Cup
12h 9m
Replay Cast
21h 9m
Afreeca Starleague
22h 9m
BeSt vs Paralyze
Jaedong vs Speed
Kung Fu Cup
23h 9m
Replay Cast
1d 12h
The PondCast
1d 22h
KCM Race Survival
1d 22h
Replay Cast
2 days
Escore
2 days
PiG Sty Festival
3 days
[ Show More ]
CranKy Ducklings
3 days
PiG Sty Festival
4 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
4 days
PiG Sty Festival
5 days
The Patches Monday
6 days
GSL
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSLAN 4
CranK Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League
Eternal Conflict S2 Finale

Ongoing

KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 3
K-JUNGMAN
ASL Season 22
Super Anchor Qualifying S3
RSL Revival: Season 6
PiG Sty Festival 8.0
META DYMY #4
Esports World Cup 2026
Esports World Cup 2026: LCQ
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026

Upcoming

CSL Season 22: Qualifier 1
Escore Tournament S3: W8
CSL Season 22: Qualifier 2
CSL 2026 AUTUMN (S22)
Acropolis #5
Acropolis #5 - TRS
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
HSC XXX
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
Big Dog Cup 2026 Div 1
Stake Ranked Episode 5
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
1win Private Club #1
Logitech G Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #5
BLAST Open Fall 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.