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[G]/[D] Why You Lose and How to Win -Using APM effectively…

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Shikada
Profile Joined May 2012
Serbia976 Posts
July 01 2012 18:45 GMT
#161
On July 02 2012 01:44 Snoodles wrote:
The low league advice rests on the assumption that more supply beats less supply, always.


Not always, just the vast majority of times, and that assumption is correct. This guide is very well written and everyone that puts this into practice is bound to improve, and the lower the league the more relevant this is.

Stutter stepping, blink micro and clever infestor use will win you a few games, a solid macro foundation will get you into diamond. Your choice.
MrLlama
Profile Joined December 2010
United States454 Posts
July 02 2012 01:17 GMT
#162
On July 02 2012 03:45 Shikada wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 02 2012 01:44 Snoodles wrote:
The low league advice rests on the assumption that more supply beats less supply, always.


Not always, just the vast majority of times, and that assumption is correct. This guide is very well written and everyone that puts this into practice is bound to improve, and the lower the league the more relevant this is.

Stutter stepping, blink micro and clever infestor use will win you a few games, a solid macro foundation will get you into diamond. Your choice.



Thank you very much.

and yeah more supply doesn't always beat less supply sure, as a zerg player I ESPECIALLY know that.

That being said, if you are at the peak supply you can be at during a certain time, and your opponent is a lower level player, his supply will be at the point where you CAN crush him with simply more supply.
www.youtube.com/mrllamasc << Casting & Analysis Videos
Targe
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
United Kingdom14103 Posts
July 02 2012 19:37 GMT
#163
Odd, I'm bronze but I have never been able to a-move for the last 30 or so games, worked in the beginning but not anymore.
11/5/14 CATACLYSM | The South West's worst Falco main
MrLlama
Profile Joined December 2010
United States454 Posts
July 02 2012 21:20 GMT
#164
On July 03 2012 04:37 Targe wrote:
Odd, I'm bronze but I have never been able to a-move for the last 30 or so games, worked in the beginning but not anymore.


If you A-move with an army of bronze-macro supply levels, yes there is a chance you won't win.

I bet if I went and macroed on your account and A-moved my army would have no problem winning.

The point of this guide is that you need to work on getting your macro to the point that you can simply A-move and win at lower levels simply by having such a greater supply
www.youtube.com/mrllamasc << Casting & Analysis Videos
animus128
Profile Joined February 2012
Germany43 Posts
July 02 2012 23:23 GMT
#165
I'm not sure if not really teching for P Bronze/Silver is good. Sure Storm will not work out that well but tech to colossi is always good especally in PvP! People in low leagues (me included^^) can FF their ramp and if they then come at you with colossi its GG, even if your macro was better.
MrLlama
Profile Joined December 2010
United States454 Posts
July 02 2012 23:49 GMT
#166
On July 03 2012 08:23 animus128 wrote:
I'm not sure if not really teching for P Bronze/Silver is good. Sure Storm will not work out that well but tech to colossi is always good especally in PvP! People in low leagues (me included^^) can FF their ramp and if they then come at you with colossi its GG, even if your macro was better.


I'm willing to 1v1 you as a protoss and prove this to you
www.youtube.com/mrllamasc << Casting & Analysis Videos
animus128
Profile Joined February 2012
Germany43 Posts
July 02 2012 23:53 GMT
#167
On July 03 2012 08:49 MrLlama wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 03 2012 08:23 animus128 wrote:
I'm not sure if not really teching for P Bronze/Silver is good. Sure Storm will not work out that well but tech to colossi is always good especally in PvP! People in low leagues (me included^^) can FF their ramp and if they then come at you with colossi its GG, even if your macro was better.


I'm willing to 1v1 you as a protoss and prove this to you



well the thing is that a silver player has way worse macro than you and makes way more mistakes! a master player could win with pretty much everything, just because of the way better mechanics and understanding of the game.

anyway i overall like your guide worker production seems like the biggest issue in low leagues, by far (from personal experience)!
MrLlama
Profile Joined December 2010
United States454 Posts
July 02 2012 23:57 GMT
#168
On July 03 2012 08:53 animus128 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 03 2012 08:49 MrLlama wrote:
On July 03 2012 08:23 animus128 wrote:
I'm not sure if not really teching for P Bronze/Silver is good. Sure Storm will not work out that well but tech to colossi is always good especally in PvP! People in low leagues (me included^^) can FF their ramp and if they then come at you with colossi its GG, even if your macro was better.


I'm willing to 1v1 you as a protoss and prove this to you



well the thing is that a silver player has way worse macro than you and makes way more mistakes! a master player could win with pretty much everything, just because of the way better mechanics and understanding of the game.

anyway i overall like your guide worker production seems like the biggest issue in low leagues, by far (from personal experience)!


hehehe exactly my point. I wasn't going to tech or micro my army, I was simply going to macro up and send it at your base. I think if a silver player can simply try and copy the macro portion of my game (not any other parts) then they will find themselves advancing
www.youtube.com/mrllamasc << Casting & Analysis Videos
Targe
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
United Kingdom14103 Posts
July 03 2012 07:39 GMT
#169
On July 03 2012 06:20 MrLlama wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 03 2012 04:37 Targe wrote:
Odd, I'm bronze but I have never been able to a-move for the last 30 or so games, worked in the beginning but not anymore.


If you A-move with an army of bronze-macro supply levels, yes there is a chance you won't win.

I bet if I went and macroed on your account and A-moved my army would have no problem winning.

The point of this guide is that you need to work on getting your macro to the point that you can simply A-move and win at lower levels simply by having such a greater supply


I've been using Filter's guide, at first I was able to just a-move and win, but It's got so that most players I play are either a fast cheese or can macro well for the first 10-15 minutes.
11/5/14 CATACLYSM | The South West's worst Falco main
lazyitachi
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
1043 Posts
July 03 2012 09:12 GMT
#170
On July 03 2012 08:49 MrLlama wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 03 2012 08:23 animus128 wrote:
I'm not sure if not really teching for P Bronze/Silver is good. Sure Storm will not work out that well but tech to colossi is always good especally in PvP! People in low leagues (me included^^) can FF their ramp and if they then come at you with colossi its GG, even if your macro was better.


I'm willing to 1v1 you as a protoss and prove this to you



My mass hellions won against stalkers and colossus. Weird huh?
MrLlama
Profile Joined December 2010
United States454 Posts
July 03 2012 12:59 GMT
#171
On July 03 2012 16:39 Targe wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 03 2012 06:20 MrLlama wrote:
On July 03 2012 04:37 Targe wrote:
Odd, I'm bronze but I have never been able to a-move for the last 30 or so games, worked in the beginning but not anymore.


If you A-move with an army of bronze-macro supply levels, yes there is a chance you won't win.

I bet if I went and macroed on your account and A-moved my army would have no problem winning.

The point of this guide is that you need to work on getting your macro to the point that you can simply A-move and win at lower levels simply by having such a greater supply


I've been using Filter's guide, at first I was able to just a-move and win, but It's got so that most players I play are either a fast cheese or can macro well for the first 10-15 minutes.


if they could macro well for the first 10-15 minutes, they would be in Diamond-Masters league.

Once again I think it's hard to realize such a difference in macro until you can either A. do it yourself B. play against a bronze-gold who you think macros well, then play against a Masters player who actually macros well.

Also in regards to cheese, I've been working on coaching a kid who is struggling to defend cheese...the reason he struggles though is because when he is cheesed his macro falls to complete crap. We've been practicing 4gates against him and he is definitely at the point where he could hold off a bronze-gold 4gate, but his problem is whenever I 4gate him, he suddenly just spends all of his time with his army microing back and forth and then he supply blocks, builds up 100 energy on each queen, stockpiles money, and then he dies after 8 waves of a 4gate where he should have basically already won and forced me back to nothing simply because he has 1300 minerals in the bank and no extra larva to use it on.
www.youtube.com/mrllamasc << Casting & Analysis Videos
Ragnarork
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
France9034 Posts
July 03 2012 13:28 GMT
#172
Pretty good tips, i'll definitely give a try. As a platinum player, i find myself constantly trying to micro drops/ do multipronged attacks, and though it sometimes works, the problem is that if it fails, i have like 4 barracks/2 fact/1-2 starport less than i should have at this moment...

This guide made me realize that when i look back at my games...

Definitely worth giving a try, there's some interesting advices.

Thanks !
LiquipediaWanderer
Dogvomit
Profile Joined October 2011
United Kingdom10 Posts
July 03 2012 13:42 GMT
#173
As a silver league player I agree in part, however it is difficult in the lower leagues as roach rushes, 4 gates, dt rushes, banling busts, proxy gates and rax happen all the time. players learn one build well and execute them well. Believe me surviving to 12 minutes can be difficult. If you don't learn to spot the heavy pressure builds and all ins you just loose. Believe me the lower leagues are scary.
origin sucks
DeZrog
Profile Joined October 2011
Canada5 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-03 16:27:58
July 03 2012 16:03 GMT
#174
I see a lot of players on here who disregard the good advice because:

1) they want to win NOW instead of moving up the ladder LATER.

2) they don't want to practice macro because it's boring - they like micro'ing, even when they are bad at multi-tasking.

3) they don't realize that if you have a bigger army and they get banshee rushed, they can just go crush the opponent's base while some static AA builds back home, instead of getting distracted by the bancheese. Best case, they pull the banshee(s) back to defend their own base, so you have time to build AA and get back to macro'ing.

4) they don't understand that just because someone is in a certain league, it doesn't always mean they are that level of player - they could be on a meteoric rise up or a slow slide downward. You WILL lose (or win) games in your league to players who actually shouldn't be in that league. This doesn't make this a "typical match" in X league.

5) they don't understand the concept of a "build order loss". Sometimes you go with something standard, and you lose to cheese, or the one thing that will counter you. This doesn't mean that what you are doing is wrong, just that you haven't learned the specific defense. Again, if you are practising MACRO, this loss shouldn't matter to you - you are not playing to win. You are playing to IMPROVE. If you are low-ranked, learning the counter to every cheese MIGHT win you some games, but you'll lose the others due to bad macro, and anti-cheese won't get you to Diamond (or whatever your goal is). If you play enough games, while focusing on macro, you'll eventually learn anti-cheese, and this anti-cheese will partly be macro-based. That is, it will be way easier to defend cheese when your macro is rock-solid - one of the reasons people cheese is that even if the cheese fails or does poorly, it throws off the person's build order so bad that they can be crushed later.

6) They don't believe that a Zerg can 2-base vs. another race's 2-base (with good macro). This is untrue - you just have to attack them at the right time, before all their tech kicks in (a friend also demonstrated this to me using a 2-base Roach+Drop+Nydus all-in that hits at about 11 mins). You can also use Infestor-Ling or a variety of other builds that get through walls (high-econ baneling bust is another classic).

Personally, I love the idea of better macro protecting against cheese and harass. In fact, there was one Nestea game casted by Tastosis, where one of the commentators mentioned this exact thing: Nestea's defense vs. Hellion Harass was actually "build more drones". He could AFFORD to lose the drones because making more units for defense actually SLOWED HIM DOWN, and if the harass DIDN'T come, he was even FURTHER behind for making units! Yes, we've all lost games where the hellions just wrecked everything, but in others, the hellions didn't come or were easily fended off and then you CRUSHED him with a big push of your own at 7-10 mins... and you thought it was just because he sucked.

My own piece of advice, as Plat Zerg who plays intermittently and has to brush the dust off frequently, is to go play the computer on Medium until you can do a 12-ish minute Roach 200/200 push. The point of the exercise isn't the Roach Push, but that it gives you a basis for an exercise in not getting supply blocked, hitting your injects, taking enough gas and at the right times, and keeping the "build units" part fairly simple. The reason for the Medium computer is that it attacks about the time when an FFE protoss would come harass you with a few units. Try it! It improved my play a great deal.
Ammoth
Profile Joined August 2011
Sweden391 Posts
July 03 2012 18:13 GMT
#175
The Bronze/Silver advice for terran seems to suggest to only build marines(?)

Or did I read it wrong? :/
MrLlama
Profile Joined December 2010
United States454 Posts
July 03 2012 18:38 GMT
#176
On July 04 2012 01:03 DeZrog wrote:
I see a lot of players on here who disregard the good advice because:

1) they want to win NOW instead of moving up the ladder LATER.

2) they don't want to practice macro because it's boring - they like micro'ing, even when they are bad at multi-tasking.

3) they don't realize that if you have a bigger army and they get banshee rushed, they can just go crush the opponent's base while some static AA builds back home, instead of getting distracted by the bancheese. Best case, they pull the banshee(s) back to defend their own base, so you have time to build AA and get back to macro'ing.

4) they don't understand that just because someone is in a certain league, it doesn't always mean they are that level of player - they could be on a meteoric rise up or a slow slide downward. You WILL lose (or win) games in your league to players who actually shouldn't be in that league. This doesn't make this a "typical match" in X league.

5) they don't understand the concept of a "build order loss". Sometimes you go with something standard, and you lose to cheese, or the one thing that will counter you. This doesn't mean that what you are doing is wrong, just that you haven't learned the specific defense. Again, if you are practising MACRO, this loss shouldn't matter to you - you are not playing to win. You are playing to IMPROVE. If you are low-ranked, learning the counter to every cheese MIGHT win you some games, but you'll lose the others due to bad macro, and anti-cheese won't get you to Diamond (or whatever your goal is). If you play enough games, while focusing on macro, you'll eventually learn anti-cheese, and this anti-cheese will partly be macro-based. That is, it will be way easier to defend cheese when your macro is rock-solid - one of the reasons people cheese is that even if the cheese fails or does poorly, it throws off the person's build order so bad that they can be crushed later.

6) They don't believe that a Zerg can 2-base vs. another race's 2-base (with good macro). This is untrue - you just have to attack them at the right time, before all their tech kicks in (a friend also demonstrated this to me using a 2-base Roach+Drop+Nydus all-in that hits at about 11 mins). You can also use Infestor-Ling or a variety of other builds that get through walls (high-econ baneling bust is another classic).

Personally, I love the idea of better macro protecting against cheese and harass. In fact, there was one Nestea game casted by Tastosis, where one of the commentators mentioned this exact thing: Nestea's defense vs. Hellion Harass was actually "build more drones". He could AFFORD to lose the drones because making more units for defense actually SLOWED HIM DOWN, and if the harass DIDN'T come, he was even FURTHER behind for making units! Yes, we've all lost games where the hellions just wrecked everything, but in others, the hellions didn't come or were easily fended off and then you CRUSHED him with a big push of your own at 7-10 mins... and you thought it was just because he sucked.

My own piece of advice, as Plat Zerg who plays intermittently and has to brush the dust off frequently, is to go play the computer on Medium until you can do a 12-ish minute Roach 200/200 push. The point of the exercise isn't the Roach Push, but that it gives you a basis for an exercise in not getting supply blocked, hitting your injects, taking enough gas and at the right times, and keeping the "build units" part fairly simple. The reason for the Medium computer is that it attacks about the time when an FFE protoss would come harass you with a few units. Try it! It improved my play a great deal.


I'm probably going to steal this comment and put it somewhere in the bottom of the guide.

Are you sure you're only platinum? because you definitely understand the game and exactly what I'm trying to prove.
www.youtube.com/mrllamasc << Casting & Analysis Videos
sCCrooked
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Korea (South)1306 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-03 18:52:51
July 03 2012 18:52 GMT
#177
On July 04 2012 03:38 MrLlama wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 04 2012 01:03 DeZrog wrote:
I see a lot of players on here who disregard the good advice because:

1) they want to win NOW instead of moving up the ladder LATER.

2) they don't want to practice macro because it's boring - they like micro'ing, even when they are bad at multi-tasking.

3) they don't realize that if you have a bigger army and they get banshee rushed, they can just go crush the opponent's base while some static AA builds back home, instead of getting distracted by the bancheese. Best case, they pull the banshee(s) back to defend their own base, so you have time to build AA and get back to macro'ing.

4) they don't understand that just because someone is in a certain league, it doesn't always mean they are that level of player - they could be on a meteoric rise up or a slow slide downward. You WILL lose (or win) games in your league to players who actually shouldn't be in that league. This doesn't make this a "typical match" in X league.

5) they don't understand the concept of a "build order loss". Sometimes you go with something standard, and you lose to cheese, or the one thing that will counter you. This doesn't mean that what you are doing is wrong, just that you haven't learned the specific defense. Again, if you are practising MACRO, this loss shouldn't matter to you - you are not playing to win. You are playing to IMPROVE. If you are low-ranked, learning the counter to every cheese MIGHT win you some games, but you'll lose the others due to bad macro, and anti-cheese won't get you to Diamond (or whatever your goal is). If you play enough games, while focusing on macro, you'll eventually learn anti-cheese, and this anti-cheese will partly be macro-based. That is, it will be way easier to defend cheese when your macro is rock-solid - one of the reasons people cheese is that even if the cheese fails or does poorly, it throws off the person's build order so bad that they can be crushed later.

6) They don't believe that a Zerg can 2-base vs. another race's 2-base (with good macro). This is untrue - you just have to attack them at the right time, before all their tech kicks in (a friend also demonstrated this to me using a 2-base Roach+Drop+Nydus all-in that hits at about 11 mins). You can also use Infestor-Ling or a variety of other builds that get through walls (high-econ baneling bust is another classic).

Personally, I love the idea of better macro protecting against cheese and harass. In fact, there was one Nestea game casted by Tastosis, where one of the commentators mentioned this exact thing: Nestea's defense vs. Hellion Harass was actually "build more drones". He could AFFORD to lose the drones because making more units for defense actually SLOWED HIM DOWN, and if the harass DIDN'T come, he was even FURTHER behind for making units! Yes, we've all lost games where the hellions just wrecked everything, but in others, the hellions didn't come or were easily fended off and then you CRUSHED him with a big push of your own at 7-10 mins... and you thought it was just because he sucked.

My own piece of advice, as Plat Zerg who plays intermittently and has to brush the dust off frequently, is to go play the computer on Medium until you can do a 12-ish minute Roach 200/200 push. The point of the exercise isn't the Roach Push, but that it gives you a basis for an exercise in not getting supply blocked, hitting your injects, taking enough gas and at the right times, and keeping the "build units" part fairly simple. The reason for the Medium computer is that it attacks about the time when an FFE protoss would come harass you with a few units. Try it! It improved my play a great deal.


I'm probably going to steal this comment and put it somewhere in the bottom of the guide.

Are you sure you're only platinum? because you definitely understand the game and exactly what I'm trying to prove.


A lot of people have good understanding but the hands and mouse accuracy of a drunkard.

Its understanding timing and just what those extra workers and tech buildings on time mean. Go ahead and try forgetting to make your gas or roach/evo vs in ZvP vs a masters Protoss going 2 base mass-gate and realize instead of microing your lings around his zealot(s) at 7:00-7:30 and then not realizing you had missed 1 inject at each hatch and gotten supply blocked at 52. Pretty sure that'll drive the message of building/tech timings home.
Enlightened in an age of anti-intellectualism and quotidian repetitiveness of asinine assumptive thinking. Best lycan guide evar --> "Fixing solo queue all pick one game at a time." ~KwarK-
MrLlama
Profile Joined December 2010
United States454 Posts
July 03 2012 19:06 GMT
#178
On July 04 2012 03:52 sCCrooked wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 04 2012 03:38 MrLlama wrote:
On July 04 2012 01:03 DeZrog wrote:
I see a lot of players on here who disregard the good advice because:

1) they want to win NOW instead of moving up the ladder LATER.

2) they don't want to practice macro because it's boring - they like micro'ing, even when they are bad at multi-tasking.

3) they don't realize that if you have a bigger army and they get banshee rushed, they can just go crush the opponent's base while some static AA builds back home, instead of getting distracted by the bancheese. Best case, they pull the banshee(s) back to defend their own base, so you have time to build AA and get back to macro'ing.

4) they don't understand that just because someone is in a certain league, it doesn't always mean they are that level of player - they could be on a meteoric rise up or a slow slide downward. You WILL lose (or win) games in your league to players who actually shouldn't be in that league. This doesn't make this a "typical match" in X league.

5) they don't understand the concept of a "build order loss". Sometimes you go with something standard, and you lose to cheese, or the one thing that will counter you. This doesn't mean that what you are doing is wrong, just that you haven't learned the specific defense. Again, if you are practising MACRO, this loss shouldn't matter to you - you are not playing to win. You are playing to IMPROVE. If you are low-ranked, learning the counter to every cheese MIGHT win you some games, but you'll lose the others due to bad macro, and anti-cheese won't get you to Diamond (or whatever your goal is). If you play enough games, while focusing on macro, you'll eventually learn anti-cheese, and this anti-cheese will partly be macro-based. That is, it will be way easier to defend cheese when your macro is rock-solid - one of the reasons people cheese is that even if the cheese fails or does poorly, it throws off the person's build order so bad that they can be crushed later.

6) They don't believe that a Zerg can 2-base vs. another race's 2-base (with good macro). This is untrue - you just have to attack them at the right time, before all their tech kicks in (a friend also demonstrated this to me using a 2-base Roach+Drop+Nydus all-in that hits at about 11 mins). You can also use Infestor-Ling or a variety of other builds that get through walls (high-econ baneling bust is another classic).

Personally, I love the idea of better macro protecting against cheese and harass. In fact, there was one Nestea game casted by Tastosis, where one of the commentators mentioned this exact thing: Nestea's defense vs. Hellion Harass was actually "build more drones". He could AFFORD to lose the drones because making more units for defense actually SLOWED HIM DOWN, and if the harass DIDN'T come, he was even FURTHER behind for making units! Yes, we've all lost games where the hellions just wrecked everything, but in others, the hellions didn't come or were easily fended off and then you CRUSHED him with a big push of your own at 7-10 mins... and you thought it was just because he sucked.

My own piece of advice, as Plat Zerg who plays intermittently and has to brush the dust off frequently, is to go play the computer on Medium until you can do a 12-ish minute Roach 200/200 push. The point of the exercise isn't the Roach Push, but that it gives you a basis for an exercise in not getting supply blocked, hitting your injects, taking enough gas and at the right times, and keeping the "build units" part fairly simple. The reason for the Medium computer is that it attacks about the time when an FFE protoss would come harass you with a few units. Try it! It improved my play a great deal.


I'm probably going to steal this comment and put it somewhere in the bottom of the guide.

Are you sure you're only platinum? because you definitely understand the game and exactly what I'm trying to prove.


A lot of people have good understanding but the hands and mouse accuracy of a drunkard.

Its understanding timing and just what those extra workers and tech buildings on time mean. Go ahead and try forgetting to make your gas or roach/evo vs in ZvP vs a masters Protoss going 2 base mass-gate and realize instead of microing your lings around his zealot(s) at 7:00-7:30 and then not realizing you had missed 1 inject at each hatch and gotten supply blocked at 52. Pretty sure that'll drive the message of building/tech timings home.


Believe me, you're preaching to the choir here. I had to learn this the hard way. 1 supply block or 1 missed inject has easily been the difference between a win and loss for me.
www.youtube.com/mrllamasc << Casting & Analysis Videos
DeZrog
Profile Joined October 2011
Canada5 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-03 21:02:59
July 03 2012 20:17 GMT
#179
On July 04 2012 01:03 DeZrog wrote:
I see a lot of players on here who disregard the good advice because...<cut>


On July 04 2012 01:03 MrLlama wrote:

I'm probably going to steal this comment and put it somewhere in the bottom of the guide.

Are you sure you're only platinum? because you definitely understand the game and exactly what I'm trying to prove.


Thanks - that's high praise. I'm Plat probably because I don't have enough time to play to keep my skills high - I've kinda hit the point where brushing the rust off is all I can keep up with, and that has put a ceiling on improvement.

You can feel free to steal any parts of my comment, and adapt as you will - maybe it will wake people up to what they have to do to improve, even though they don't want to hear it.

I wanted to add one more thing to those feeling discouraged: some people have a better start than others at SC2 because they have a higher native ability to do automatic repetition and/or multi-tasking, or fast hands for micro or whatever. Most of all (I've realized) that time playing is really what improves you... IF you are willing to spend that time doing the things you need to do to improve - and at the top of that list is macro, which means getting the "building things" so automatic that you can afford the brainspace to do other things, like scout, micro, etc. If you're really serious about SC2, you have to put in some "practice", similar to any sport. If you are only going to play the game for fun then stop worrying about your rank and stop arguing with people who HAVE put in the work and have seen results.

Also - MrLlama never said "scouting is bad" or "micro is bad". He said "macro is more important - worry about the rest later". This applies EVEN IF ractising your macro (at the expense of other things) will lose you games in your current league! (but it will win you more games later).

DeZrog
sCCrooked
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Korea (South)1306 Posts
July 03 2012 20:37 GMT
#180
On July 04 2012 04:06 MrLlama wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 04 2012 03:52 sCCrooked wrote:
On July 04 2012 03:38 MrLlama wrote:
On July 04 2012 01:03 DeZrog wrote:
I see a lot of players on here who disregard the good advice because:

1) they want to win NOW instead of moving up the ladder LATER.

2) they don't want to practice macro because it's boring - they like micro'ing, even when they are bad at multi-tasking.

3) they don't realize that if you have a bigger army and they get banshee rushed, they can just go crush the opponent's base while some static AA builds back home, instead of getting distracted by the bancheese. Best case, they pull the banshee(s) back to defend their own base, so you have time to build AA and get back to macro'ing.

4) they don't understand that just because someone is in a certain league, it doesn't always mean they are that level of player - they could be on a meteoric rise up or a slow slide downward. You WILL lose (or win) games in your league to players who actually shouldn't be in that league. This doesn't make this a "typical match" in X league.

5) they don't understand the concept of a "build order loss". Sometimes you go with something standard, and you lose to cheese, or the one thing that will counter you. This doesn't mean that what you are doing is wrong, just that you haven't learned the specific defense. Again, if you are practising MACRO, this loss shouldn't matter to you - you are not playing to win. You are playing to IMPROVE. If you are low-ranked, learning the counter to every cheese MIGHT win you some games, but you'll lose the others due to bad macro, and anti-cheese won't get you to Diamond (or whatever your goal is). If you play enough games, while focusing on macro, you'll eventually learn anti-cheese, and this anti-cheese will partly be macro-based. That is, it will be way easier to defend cheese when your macro is rock-solid - one of the reasons people cheese is that even if the cheese fails or does poorly, it throws off the person's build order so bad that they can be crushed later.

6) They don't believe that a Zerg can 2-base vs. another race's 2-base (with good macro). This is untrue - you just have to attack them at the right time, before all their tech kicks in (a friend also demonstrated this to me using a 2-base Roach+Drop+Nydus all-in that hits at about 11 mins). You can also use Infestor-Ling or a variety of other builds that get through walls (high-econ baneling bust is another classic).

Personally, I love the idea of better macro protecting against cheese and harass. In fact, there was one Nestea game casted by Tastosis, where one of the commentators mentioned this exact thing: Nestea's defense vs. Hellion Harass was actually "build more drones". He could AFFORD to lose the drones because making more units for defense actually SLOWED HIM DOWN, and if the harass DIDN'T come, he was even FURTHER behind for making units! Yes, we've all lost games where the hellions just wrecked everything, but in others, the hellions didn't come or were easily fended off and then you CRUSHED him with a big push of your own at 7-10 mins... and you thought it was just because he sucked.

My own piece of advice, as Plat Zerg who plays intermittently and has to brush the dust off frequently, is to go play the computer on Medium until you can do a 12-ish minute Roach 200/200 push. The point of the exercise isn't the Roach Push, but that it gives you a basis for an exercise in not getting supply blocked, hitting your injects, taking enough gas and at the right times, and keeping the "build units" part fairly simple. The reason for the Medium computer is that it attacks about the time when an FFE protoss would come harass you with a few units. Try it! It improved my play a great deal.


I'm probably going to steal this comment and put it somewhere in the bottom of the guide.

Are you sure you're only platinum? because you definitely understand the game and exactly what I'm trying to prove.


A lot of people have good understanding but the hands and mouse accuracy of a drunkard.

Its understanding timing and just what those extra workers and tech buildings on time mean. Go ahead and try forgetting to make your gas or roach/evo vs in ZvP vs a masters Protoss going 2 base mass-gate and realize instead of microing your lings around his zealot(s) at 7:00-7:30 and then not realizing you had missed 1 inject at each hatch and gotten supply blocked at 52. Pretty sure that'll drive the message of building/tech timings home.


Believe me, you're preaching to the choir here. I had to learn this the hard way. 1 supply block or 1 missed inject has easily been the difference between a win and loss for me.


I meant the bottom part there more for lower mineral-leaguers and not masters but yes 1 mistake like that will cost you a masters or higher game.
Enlightened in an age of anti-intellectualism and quotidian repetitiveness of asinine assumptive thinking. Best lycan guide evar --> "Fixing solo queue all pick one game at a time." ~KwarK-
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