[G]/[D] Why You Lose and How to Win -Using APM effectively…

On June 23 2012 20:09 cork wrote:
hmm this guide is good in its core but you seem to assume lower lvl players have lower apm. I think most players are in the lower leagues because of tactics. Take me for an example, i have around 300 apm and 170+ eapm(According to sc2gears) and i am in platinum. My mechanics is of the hook, i never miss a drop on the minimap(i play zerg) and my creepspread is amazing. BUT my tactics ingame is fucking bad. I get cheesed out in like 80 % of my games because i play zerg...

Because of my good mechanics i can do all those things pro's do on their stream because i got even better mechanics than some pro players. I can do everything you said i shouldn't do and still be platinum...

On June 09 2012 07:05 MrLlama wrote:
To cut to the chase, people misuse their APM. The biggest REASON for this misuse is because people watch pro replays and streams, see the little details that win games for the pros, and then try to apply those same things to their gameplay.

On June 24 2012 01:00 MrLlama wrote:



Another thing to note is you have the same symptom that most people have and I've explained this before. You have the "I can't get much better in a certain area symptom" which I think is pretty obvious to see considering you believe your mechanics are better than some pros. This is very common around your level and I'm going to assume you're someone who has said you are a high plat/low diamond league player before because you think that's where you deserve to be.
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On June 24 2012 01:35 Emporium wrote:
Firstly PMed.

secondly could you elaborate more on this 30 apm idea, i think its exactly what lower level players need, if would have to have everything going at that speed, so even engagements etc

but if you can show just how to defend at that APM level then it would be really cool

On June 24 2012 01:36 -Kira wrote:


I think there hasn't been a single time that i've had higher APM than my enemy (except when being matched vs lower leagues at the start of the season). Whether i win or lose i always have lower APM, sometimes, my enemy has twice my APM (and EPM) and i'm stil able to outmultitask them in 30 min macro games. At the end of a replay i check the APM and it's always lower. - EU Masters.

On June 24 2012 01:55 cork wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +

Thats just plain wrong... Ive played around 1000 games against plat people and NONE of them had an eapm over 135, i have an eapm around 160 - 175. I looked at the pros eapm and the best have around 170 to 250 while the lower pros have around my eapm. Its not COMMON that players around plat think they have good mechanics.

On June 24 2012 01:55 cork wrote:



Thats just plain wrong... Ive played around 1000 games against plat people and NONE of them had an eapm over 135, i have an eapm around 160 - 175. I looked at the pros eapm and the best have around 170 to 250 while the lower pros have around my eapm. Its not COMMON that players around plat think they have good mechanics.

On June 24 2012 02:03 MrLlama wrote:


Yeah basically I think there are 2 big things that lower level players deal with
1. Poor macro because they are trying to do too many things (which is what this whole thread is about)
2. Unsure of what to do when they get cheesed/dropped/pressured. The pros use 250apm and fly around the screen to deal with everything and it's hard to determine what the most important actions were. I'm going to use 30apm to slowly defend and go over every important step by step detail to go through to defend something.



Yeah I believe that. First off, what race do you play? That can make a difference as protoss needs less apm than terran or zerg usually. Also, using APM effectively is really what matters. A lot of people spam more apm for less important actions and they can still easily lose the game.

in SC2 you only really need like 70apm to do everything you truly want to do. Anything above that is nice but not necessary to at least get into masters.




I think you are confusing apm (or eapm) with mechanics. I can spam a lot of actions and lose tons of games, or I can use 40eapm and win lots of game at a level higher than yours. That's just your ability to click a lot, how you USE that apm is what matters. It's definitely better to have more than less though when learning how to use it importantly.

On June 24 2012 02:15 cork wrote:
but eapm takes away spam and show just the EFFECTIVE actions...

On June 24 2012 02:11 Exoteric wrote:


Unless you post replays of your 'amazing mechanics' that are superior to pro players, you can't really expect us to take what you're saying seriously.

On June 24 2012 02:19 oZii wrote:
Ok what I have done so far is take what you have said and kind of tweaked it a bit and it seems to work so far.


Most of my games consist of making roaches and lings in ZvT and ZvZ.

In ZvP I am using roaches and lings with a rough stephano style max. Rough meaning can't perform it to profection but have general concept down.

Zerg is different as you said so what I have been doing is basically focusing on the openers i.e. hatch first or pool first 15/15,14/14. I still scout can't break that habit as I was diamond toss so I do still scout even though Im silver zerg after my break from the game.

Basically I am preparing for what the basic unit comps I will face at stages be it immortals or bio and tanks. So I am not focusing on a build really just a rough draft I guess just having what I think I need at what times. Its been working pretty good so far. Lings and roaches pretty much covers everything I play at my level. ZvZ is another story right now though as those games actually seem to go longer I just go 14/14 and go from there. Never realized how much defenders advantage comes into play in zvz.

On June 24 2012 02:16 MrLlama wrote:


Effective doesn't mean it's effective in terms of advancing your game play. It just means it's not a spammed action. I could boost my EAPM by cancelling units I create individually, that doesn't mean it's actually effective.

On June 24 2012 03:05 Noruxas wrote:
I totally disagree with this entire thread lol. Idk if its just because of the diffirence in skill on servers, but from gold league of its no longer just macro man. To win you have to scout good, micro well and all those things. The times where all you needed to get into diamond or master was macro is over. The thing that got me the most as a terran though:
"I think this is a great time to start thinking about drops as a terran player." --In platinum....
Srsly? I started dropping in TvZ since bronze, and it is basicly a way to win a game.Well, theres more but I just want to say you think a bit too low of the lower leagues.

On June 24 2012 03:43 Emporium wrote:



LOL, this is funny cos like 10 posts earlier i say the same thing.


I think that MRLlama is trying to say is not that you shouldnt drop, just that if you macro more, the you shoudlnt be dropping at these levels because if you macro perfectly your so far ahead then it is more efficient to not drop cos you can just a-move your army and win.


i just played him, and the macro level difference meant that by 16min mark he had a 40 supply lead.

So to re-iterate, i think he means, that there is no point in doing drops at this level because if you macro properly, then you will be so far ahead, that the dropping doesnt gain you as much as just macroing hard does.

because you can then just a-move and win.(by having a supply lead, and better economy so that even if you lose, you can respawn quicker etc.)

And i think your forgetting that Dropping is to try and gain an edge when you and your opponent are of similar level, well bronze to gold, generally it is just practicing build orders and executing them perfectly, and you win. I suspect that the reason you won the matches you did at the lower levels was less to do with the fact that you dropped but more to do with the fact that you just macroed better than your opponent.

Bear in mind i said less likely, not, not at all.