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On July 10 2012 04:04 emmagoldman wrote:
Newly Silver Protoss here. Seen so many people advocate this route, I tried it today. So far, I like it: I've only won about half my games, but that's not the point now, eh?
Here's the one problem that I _do_ have: I have no idea when is right to attack in this strategy. It seems so far that many of my losses come down to timings, but then again, maybe I just need to Macro Harder.
Any more suggestions than 'a big army?'
there are 2 things to say here
1. You'll start to get a feel for when to attack as you play more. Suddenly you'll realize if you're terran that attacking in that period he is teching to collosus is a very vulnerable time, or hitting a zerg as a protoss at 10:30 can be very tough for them. etc.
2. There's nothing wrong with just macroing more. Sure it's good to know when to attack, but there is also something called defenders advantage. You get chokes, faster reinforcements, ramps, and the defensive positioning. If he is turtled up or not attacking, nothing wrong with just chilling and macroing even harder to get a larger lead. Maybe just keep checks on him to make sure he didn't expand 10 times freely (because then maybe it's time to attack!)
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On July 10 2012 04:27 MrLlama wrote:
there are 2 things to say here
1. You'll start to get a feel for when to attack as you play more. Suddenly you'll realize if you're terran that attacking in that period he is teching to collosus is a very vulnerable time, or hitting a zerg as a protoss at 10:30 can be very tough for them. etc.
Seems reasonable. 
2. There's nothing wrong with just macroing more. Sure it's good to know when to attack, but there is also something called defenders advantage. You get chokes, faster reinforcements, ramps, and the defensive positioning. If he is turtled up or not attacking, nothing wrong with just chilling and macroing even harder to get a larger lead. Maybe just keep checks on him to make sure he didn't expand 10 times freely (because then maybe it's time to attack!)
Makes sense! I guess this that this fear comes out of later tech units being 'better,' so if I don't hit early enough I feel like I'll get wiped.
For example, I just played a PvP game; when I swung at 10:30 with 14 stalkers and seven zealots. he had four stalkers, four zealots, and 4 immortals, because he went two gate robo exapand. (I derived this from the replay of course, not from the game  ) His counterattack with 7 immortals and 5 stalkers vs my re-'max' at 8 stalkers didn't go so well. I got crushed. I guess If I'd had a few more gateways out earlier (I had money in the bank because I didn't have enough production for my income level) I might have held him and won.
Then again, I'm paying close attention to this game, rather than games in aggregate, which is the entire point. But that game illustrates my general fear with not knowing when to attack.
I also had a bad loss due to a Terran with a cloaked banshee. Nothing I could do. It's hard to remind yourself "That's the first time I've seen that in a long, long time" and not freak out over what's essentially an outlier.
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@emmagoldman:
I am newly gold thanks to a few guides (lookup Filtersc's bronze to masters series and then when you can hit his benchmarks, look up Apollo's bronze to master's series that is faster-paced and introduces higher-level game reading).
Essentially, with protoss, (I'm not expert) the point of attacking at any early timing is to:
1.) Expand behind the attack
2.) Prevent an opponent from expanding.
3.) Fake pressure to prevent zerg droning too heavy
4.) All-in (which doesn't really fit well with learning to macro at our level)
So I guess if you think about attacks as methods of doing on of the above, it might help you to pick your timings. It is also very race dependent! Generally a protoss will attack first when attempting to take a 3rd base/denying an opponent's 3rd.
Hope that helps!
-Robin
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First benchmark: Go into a game vs an easy comp and pretend you are playing vs a FFE protoss who doesn't early pressure. This means you will have 8 minutes of free time to drone and macro. By 8:00 you should have 68+ supply. In my games where the protoss pressures and pylon blocks and all that, I will have 70+ supply everytime. In my games vs an easy comp with no pressure, I will have 86+ supply. This includes having 2x gas, a roach warren, and an evo chamber done. That's a real benchmark or 'macro counter' for you.
I have been hitting 80 by 8:00 - but I can't a-move an all roach army like that into a top gold protoss and get a free win (though it worked well in silver haha).
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Hey jinx1281255!
Last I checked, Filter hadn't done toss yet, so I can't get any direct benchmarks there. Of course, I can always test against myself, anyway. I've watched Apollo's series all the way through; it's why I'm in silver atm.
Your four points might actually explain some of my anxiety; I've been doing a pretty basic 4gate most of the time, and so it tends to be very all-in-y. I'll sometimes get a longer win, but generally, if they hold me off, I lose ten minutes later.
Thanks!
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On July 10 2012 05:14 emmagoldman wrote:
Hey jinx1281255!
Last I checked, Filter hadn't done toss yet, so I can't get any direct benchmarks there. Of course, I can always test against myself, anyway. I've watched Apollo's series all the way through; it's why I'm in silver atm.
Your four points might actually explain some of my anxiety; I've been doing a pretty basic 4gate most of the time, and so it tends to be very all-in-y. I'll sometimes get a longer win, but generally, if they hold me off, I lose ten minutes later.
Thanks!
Hey man! You're right, he hasn't, but the reason I would recommend it is because by listening to his in-game comments, you can learn more about timings (both for zerg and terran) that will help you to understand good times for an attack depending on what you see he is doing.
I think you just nailed the problem you are having - 4-gate tends to be more all-in than macro oriented. I would recommend forge-fast expand against zerg, 1 gate expand against terran and I have no recommendation for PvP (Watch Apollo for that haha). Just practice it against a CPU until you can execute them perfectly. That will easily take you from silver to gold.
GL HF!
-Jinx
P.S. The best part about listening to Apollo's guide is his game-sense and decision making. Watch the series again and then take a new concept into each match. For instance, in every match, make sure you know where his army is at, when he expands and what his army composition looks like using various scouting methods. This will help you to know if you are safe to expand, ready to attack or needing more units for defense. (observers are highly underrated in silver and gold leagues).
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Makes total sense. Thanks!
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On July 10 2012 05:11 jinx1281255 wrote:
First benchmark: Go into a game vs an easy comp and pretend you are playing vs a FFE protoss who doesn't early pressure. This means you will have 8 minutes of free time to drone and macro. By 8:00 you should have 68+ supply. In my games where the protoss pressures and pylon blocks and all that, I will have 70+ supply everytime. In my games vs an easy comp with no pressure, I will have 86+ supply. This includes having 2x gas, a roach warren, and an evo chamber done. That's a real benchmark or 'macro counter' for you.
I have been hitting 80 by 8:00 - but I can't a-move an all roach army like that into a top gold protoss and get a free win (though it worked well in silver haha).
if you max by 11:30 you should be able to do this
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Hi, I'm a Silver Terran, and I've been following the guide for a few weeks. Every ladder game I play now I use only Marines (sometimes I use Marauders as well) and A-move into the enemy base, focusing on constant worker production and barracks construction. I'd say my success rate was about 50%. Some players I can steamroll with a superior army; others I simply can't beat no matter how many expansions and barracks I have. I think part of the problem is I often let my minerals get too high: either A) I don't keep up in Marine production; B) I don't sink extra minerals into Barracks quickly enough; C) I get supply blocked. Usually by around 10 minutes I have 100 supply and around 500-1000 min. But there are some times I think just having gas for Marauders/upgrades would help a lot. I know your guide recommends no gas usage at all, but sometimes it feels impossible to win with pure Marines.
The army compositions I have a hard time dealing with are:
-Mass Roaches
-Mass Banelings (less of a problem)
-Mass Siege Tanks
-Mass Colossus (supported by death-ball)
Some questions I have are:
Do any of these comps warrant Marauder/upgrades?
Should I ever need a third base in Silver league?
Let me also say that this guide has really been instructional for me. I had no idea just how crucial macro was to Starcraft until I read this. This is the first time I've practiced a build that I know what to look for and how, specifically, to improve. Thank you!
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I've worked my way up into Platinum League as Protoss, but I still find myself confused on when to get upgrades, higher tech, and my 3rd base. Most of the time, I'm too focused on warping in units so I don't have enough resources to get anything else. Any advice?
Also, you say, "HTs/storm - In earlier leagues I don't promote the idea of templar as much because they are fragile and require a little more unit micro," does this mean I should or shouldn't start using High Templar in Platinum League?
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On July 16 2012 17:05 PencilFlavor wrote:
I've worked my way up into Platinum League as Protoss, but I still find myself confused on when to get upgrades, higher tech, and my 3rd base. Most of the time, I'm too focused on warping in units so I don't have enough resources to get anything else. Any advice?
Also, you say, "HTs/storm - In earlier leagues I don't promote the idea of templar as much because they are fragile and require a little more unit micro," does this mean I should or shouldn't start using High Templar in Platinum League?
I think platinum/diamond is a good time to start considering the use of high templar. The only thing I can say though is make sure they aren't hindering your performance back home. If you wind up spending all this time microing your high templar and start to drop in your macro game, you're only hurting yourself.
In terms of teching/expanding/macroing/upgrading, generally as a protoss you will expand behind your attack unless you want to go all in (this isn't always the case but for a lot of instances it is). So instead of having that next round of warp ins, you'll just keep up the pressure with the units that you have and then have taken an expansion behind it.
Upgrading should generally just be fit into your gameplay as it goes along. But the important thing to remember about upgrades is how much benefit you get for the cost. If you get +1 attack, you are adding a LOT of damage to every unit in your army for the cost of maybe 1-2 units. The damage you gain exceeds the units you lose so don't feel bad to sacrifice a unit or two so you can grab an upgrade (same goes for armor). That being said, if you are in a fight and every unit matters (like you're doing an 8gate all in and you are warping in at his base), maybe an upgrade isn't the best idea as the game will probably be decided before you gain the effects of it (and losing those couple units there will be really tide turning possibly).
high tech is something that I don't like to push too much because a lot of people rush it and sacrifice their macro early on. Get it when you feel safe is the best way to say it I suppose. If you FFE then you can decide a tech while the zerg is droning. If you gate expand then you can grab a tech after you expand and have enough gateways to have a sizeable army. Once again this is something you can do while you're attacking and applying pressure.
On July 16 2012 08:30 starimk wrote:
Hi, I'm a Silver Terran, and I've been following the guide for a few weeks. Every ladder game I play now I use only Marines (sometimes I use Marauders as well) and A-move into the enemy base, focusing on constant worker production and barracks construction. I'd say my success rate was about 50%. Some players I can steamroll with a superior army; others I simply can't beat no matter how many expansions and barracks I have. I think part of the problem is I often let my minerals get too high: either A) I don't keep up in Marine production; B) I don't sink extra minerals into Barracks quickly enough; C) I get supply blocked. Usually by around 10 minutes I have 100 supply and around 500-1000 min. But there are some times I think just having gas for Marauders/upgrades would help a lot. I know your guide recommends no gas usage at all, but sometimes it feels impossible to win with pure Marines.
The army compositions I have a hard time dealing with are:
-Mass Roaches
-Mass Banelings (less of a problem)
-Mass Siege Tanks
-Mass Colossus (supported by death-ball)
Some questions I have are:
Do any of these comps warrant Marauder/upgrades?
Should I ever need a third base in Silver league?
Let me also say that this guide has really been instructional for me. I had no idea just how crucial macro was to Starcraft until I read this. This is the first time I've practiced a build that I know what to look for and how, specifically, to improve. Thank you!
if you're floating minerals, then you can still be adding on more production facilities and have more units out. This is very important to fix before attempting anything else because the more tech that you try to add, the more time you'll spend away from macro and it won't benefit you in the long run. Like I said before, do not be afraid to throw down more production facilities. If you have 2K minerals, throw down 6-8 more barracks and start making even more marines!
If your opponent is getting mass colossus, then you probably need to macro a little faster. Best off they should have a couple collosus and less ground army to where your army still would have a chance.
Against those army compositions though I think it's okay to possibly add some marauders. They will give your army a little bit more survivability which will be nice for sure. 1 thing to note is siege tanks. If your opponent is sitting on 2 bases with a ton of siege tanks, you will lose if you try and walk into his base. How do we fix this? We answer your next question and say take a 3rd. Take a 4th. Start to learn to tech some here. When you're ahead, get further ahead. If he wants to sit and turtle, punish him for it. then you can contain him and maybe start to add a few tanks of your own and create a little contain so it's hard for him to push out and boom eventually he starves.
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I have also been working on improving my play following my approach described on page 4, and I think I'm finally starting to see some results.
I would caution anyone following this that you won't necessarily see instant improvement, and in fact you may get worse before you get better. Trying to learn to flank has taught me that there are a lot of different ways to screw it up, and I think I've done nearly all of them. (Many of my attempts could still be described as "how to donate most of your army to your opponent in tasty bite-sized chunks"). Very often the result is worse than if I'd just 1Aed, and if I hadn't read this guide and still had the "macro and 1A to Diamond" mantra stuck in my head, I would probably have felt guilty for focusing on stuff that wasn't macro and gone back to 1Aing. This time I've been sticking with it. Along with macro analysis, I watch my replays for engagements and try to figure out what worked well, what didn't and what I should have done differently. I think I am learning and going in the right direction but it does take time, and I have had to unlearn some habits that were pretty well entrenched.
Hopefully I'm past the worst of it as I am on a bit of a winning streak right now. Time will tell if this is real or a fluke; however I think that one good sign is that, even though I don't think I am winning many games with my engagements, I am not losing nearly so many due to poor engagements as I used to. Mostly I win with better macro; in fact it feels like I win much more often with macro now, which is ironic considering I'm focusing on it less. I think I've always outmacroed my opponent in maybe 8 or 9 out of every 10 games, but previously I might throw 3 or 4 of them away due to bad engagements and lose. Now I do that much less often, maybe 1 or 2 games out of 10 (and dropping). My engagements still aren't great, but they are usually on a par with my opponent or at least close, and it seems like that's enough to make my macro lead count for a lot more.
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On July 17 2012 07:08 Chutoro wrote:
I have also been working on improving my play following my approach described on page 4, and I think I'm finally starting to see some results.
I would caution anyone following this that you won't necessarily see instant improvement, and in fact you may get worse before you get better. Trying to learn to flank has taught me that there are a lot of different ways to screw it up, and I think I've done nearly all of them. (Many of my attempts could still be described as "how to donate most of your army to your opponent in tasty bite-sized chunks"). Very often the result is worse than if I'd just 1Aed, and if I hadn't read this guide and still had the "macro and 1A to Diamond" mantra stuck in my head, I would probably have felt guilty for focusing on stuff that wasn't macro and gone back to 1Aing. This time I've been sticking with it. Along with macro analysis, I watch my replays for engagements and try to figure out what worked well, what didn't and what I should have done differently. I think I am learning and going in the right direction but it does take time, and I have had to unlearn some habits that were pretty well entrenched.
Hopefully I'm past the worst of it as I am on a bit of a winning streak right now. Time will tell if this is real or a fluke; however I think that one good sign is that, even though I don't think I am winning many games with my engagements, I am not losing nearly so many due to poor engagements as I used to. Mostly I win with better macro; in fact it feels like I win much more often with macro now, which is ironic considering I'm focusing on it less. I think I've always outmacroed my opponent in maybe 8 or 9 out of every 10 games, but previously I might throw 3 or 4 of them away due to bad engagements and lose. Now I do that much less often, maybe 1 or 2 games out of 10 (and dropping). My engagements still aren't great, but they are usually on a par with my opponent or at least close, and it seems like that's enough to make my macro lead count for a lot more.
It never is easy and you won't always see instant results but I'm glad you're working on it and starting to finally get some good wins/better losses. You won't win every engagement in a game but if you can make them count for something at least WHILE maintaining better macro, you'll still stay ahead and be in the game. If you have bad macro and a bad engagement (as you saw before), you will lose and not have a chance.
Keep me updated with how you're doing!
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On July 16 2012 08:30 starimk wrote:
Hi, I'm a Silver Terran, and I've been following the guide for a few weeks.
The army compositions I have a hard time dealing with are:
-Mass Roaches
-Mass Banelings (less of a problem)
-Mass Siege Tanks
-Mass Colossus (supported by death-ball)
Just as MrLlama said, marauders are good against all of those comps. You can add one gas after your 3rd barracks and that is enough to add marauders into your mix - out of 1 barracks when you are on 3 and than out of 2 when you are on 5.
This is slightly away from the OP is teaching, but get a combat shield upgrade. While this is great overall at Silver level it is especially good against banelings.
When I was in Silver league I also had a lot of problems with turtling terran with siege tanks and it was first time I needed to move away from a-moving into opponents base. First of all, against terran you need to control your army a little bit and target fire a supply deopt at their wall. If you jsut a-move to their base they will walk around like lemmings and die to one tank. With a hole in their wall a-moving into the base will start working well again. But if the tank count gets too big and your army starts dealing no damage than move on to plan B, just as OP stated in reply to you. I would just like to add, that at this point it is crucial to make sure that your opponent has no hidden third. Put a marine on every base on map and when he tries to set up a base there just a-move.
Against colossus try moving out faster. Again - when I was in silver league if protoss was rushing to collosi, he didn't have enough army to support it and my a-moved army just walked over it. If there was one or two when my first wave hit, it was not that much of a problem (and again - combat shield helps here).
Also in Silver league your games should end relatively fast. If they drag out long it is mostly due to your opponent turtling. If he does that, start working on your upgrades.
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On July 17 2012 21:16 crow_mw wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 08:30 starimk wrote:
Hi, I'm a Silver Terran, and I've been following the guide for a few weeks.
The army compositions I have a hard time dealing with are:
-Mass Roaches
-Mass Banelings (less of a problem)
-Mass Siege Tanks
-Mass Colossus (supported by death-ball)
Just as MrLlama said, marauders are good against all of those comps. You can add one gas after your 3rd barracks and that is enough to add marauders into your mix - out of 1 barracks when you are on 3 and than out of 2 when you are on 5. This is slightly away from the OP is teaching, but get a combat shield upgrade. While this is great overall at Silver level it is especially good against banelings. When I was in Silver league I also had a lot of problems with turtling terran with siege tanks and it was first time I needed to move away from a-moving into opponents base. First of all, against terran you need to control your army a little bit and target fire a supply deopt at their wall. If you jsut a-move to their base they will walk around like lemmings and die to one tank. With a hole in their wall a-moving into the base will start working well again. But if the tank count gets too big and your army starts dealing no damage than move on to plan B, just as OP stated in reply to you. I would just like to add, that at this point it is crucial to make sure that your opponent has no hidden third. Put a marine on every base on map and when he tries to set up a base there just a-move. Against colossus try moving out faster. Again - when I was in silver league if protoss was rushing to collosi, he didn't have enough army to support it and my a-moved army just walked over it. If there was one or two when my first wave hit, it was not that much of a problem (and again - combat shield helps here). Also in Silver league your games should end relatively fast. If they drag out long it is mostly due to your opponent turtling. If he does that, start working on your upgrades.
Yep this is a nice addition to my post above. If you're going to want to add marauders, get that 1 gas after the 3rd rax as he said, add a tech lab or two, and now you can mix your army up a bit without too much apm to detract from your macro. If you notice you start floating a little gas, get combat shields as he said (nice upgrade that you don't have to micro to gain benefit like stim).
The collosus thing I want to re-emphasize because a lot of players seem to miss it. If your opponent is going collosus, you can kill him in the timing window that he techs up to them (at this level for sure, higher up the window is there but there are more factors). I know you aren't scouting but try pushing out around that 10minute mark where you have 100 supply I'd say. That gives you 50 scvs (should be at least this, if not, keep working on scv production) and 50 supply of army which should be very strong at this point.
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I would like to point out that even within GM level there are still tiers that seperates high gms from low gms.
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I kind of disagree with this. If a lower level player wants to harass with their drone that's fine, they'll just build up better multi tasking skills faster. If I never pushed myself then I wouldnt have the apm and multitasking to play how I want now.
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On July 17 2012 22:27 EnE wrote:
I kind of disagree with this. If a lower level player wants to harass with their drone that's fine, they'll just build up better multi tasking skills faster. If I never pushed myself then I wouldnt have the apm and multitasking to play how I want now.
I mean of course there is always a different way to learn. I could say, "I never went to school and just stayed at home and read books and now I'm just as smart as kids who went to school." Even so, I still think going to school is the best way to learn as it gives you a better order to learn from a more experienced person.
Sure you can start out trying to learn long division and slowly figure it out (or maybe never figure it out, which is why a lot of people find themselves stuck), or you can learn addition first, then subtraction, then multiplication and division afterwards.
The order I'm providing is for your benefit and macro is such a great foundation because everything stems off of it (plus you learn multitasking simply by jumping around your base macroing).
On July 17 2012 22:11 kyzers0ze wrote:
I would like to point out that even within GM level there are still tiers that seperates high gms from low gms.
Not only this, but the separation from players grows even more here than down low. For example: Playing a bronze or silver player really isn't very noticable for me. They both play about the same and their differences are very minimal when I look at it (one of them maybe macros a little better or has better banshee control which separates them but if you took a few days with either one of them, you could teach them a new skill that would improve them to the next level)
Yet when I play a low GM player vs a high GM player, I KNOW the difference. I can beat low GM players with good play and a little luck sometimes, even with good play and some luck, it's very hard for me to beat a high GM player. Their play is almost exponentially better than mine despite us being so close in the ranks, simply because we both have all of the fundamentals down but their ability to multitask and disrupt me throws me off my game a ton and I simply get outplayed in the end.
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I'd just like to say that your post convinced me to buy starcraft (haven't played since beta), install it on my work computer (as my home computer can't run it) and come into work at 6am to get a few games in before the day starts. Good job! The simplicity of what you're espousing has made the game much more enjoyable.
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On July 18 2012 00:34 caznitch wrote:
I'd just like to say that your post convinced me to buy starcraft (haven't played since beta), install it on my work computer (as my home computer can't run it) and come into work at 6am to get a few games in before the day starts. Good job! The simplicity of what you're espousing has made the game much more enjoyable.
This is exactly the kind of influence I hope to have in SC2
Let me know if you ever need any help (PM me)!
Good luck
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EPT
