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On June 05 2012 08:13 furerkip wrote:
We should be okay with our lynches if the townie in question was scumslipping like no other. It's not okay to just randomly lynch townies with an ML, only townies who are scumslipping.
If we identify those that are scumslipping and lynch them, we'll get the mafia, even if it means casualties on our side because mafia HAS to scumslip at some point, whether it be at the very end of the game or at the beginning.
That's not true at all in my experience. In my newbie mini mafia game here, two people made 'scumslips', myself and mementoss. Both were town. In TL Mafia LI, gonzaw made a 'scumslip', he was town. If anything from the games I've played town seems to be the ones making scumslips more often than scum, because they're more careful as they're hiding something. Lynch candidates are those who act anti-town by derailing the thread into pointless bickering, have obvious logical errors in their analysis, people that tunnel hard on one player without giving their opinion on current cases, and lurkers. The latter is my least favorite lynch category, but from the last game I hosted all mafia were basically lurkers, so a no lurker acceptance has to be imposed.
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And now I'm off to bed. Will be back tomorrow morning or afternoon, depending on if I have time to check in during uni.
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On June 05 2012 08:17 Blazinghand wrote:
Lynching based on scumslips is bad. Lynching based on scum play and scumminess is good.
That doesn't make sense, they correlate exactly. Scumslips = scum play and scumminess because scumslips are evidence for scumminess and scum play.
Very alien experience from where I usually play, this game I mean.
On June 05 2012 08:18 Artanis[Xp] wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 08:13 furerkip wrote:
We should be okay with our lynches if the townie in question was scumslipping like no other. It's not okay to just randomly lynch townies with an ML, only townies who are scumslipping.
If we identify those that are scumslipping and lynch them, we'll get the mafia, even if it means casualties on our side because mafia HAS to scumslip at some point, whether it be at the very end of the game or at the beginning. That's not true at all in my experience. In my newbie mini mafia game here, two people made 'scumslips', myself and mementoss. Both were town. In TL Mafia LI, gonzaw made a 'scumslip', he was town. If anything from the games I've played town seems to be the ones making scumslips more often than scum, because they're more careful as they're hiding something. Lynch candidates are those who act anti-town by derailing the thread into pointless bickering, have obvious logical errors in their analysis, people that tunnel hard on one player without giving their opinion on current cases, and lurkers. The latter is my least favorite lynch category, but from the last game I hosted all mafia were basically lurkers, so a no lurker acceptance has to be imposed.
In your experience, if the mafia are lurkers, then obviously they won't scum slip... they aren't even active -___-.
Also, that is entirely circumstantial and baseless evidence for why we shouldn't lynch based off scumslips. "See, people here were town, but they scum slipped!"
Okay, I have a question for all of you:
Under what evidence should we lynch people, if not for scumslips?
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On June 05 2012 08:34 furerkip wrote:
Okay, I have a question for all of you:
Under what evidence should we lynch people, if not for scumslips?
You lynch people off of scummy play. Town players tend to promote activity and interactions, and overall pressure people and provide analysis. Scum players literally cannot play as town as town players, because they know who scum is, they must play differently-- scummily. There are some scumslips that only scum can make, but most of what are considered "scumslips" are things that are done equally often by town and scum.
A classic example of this was during one of my games (I think it was LI) I referred to the town as "you guys" when I was a VT. A major scumslip. The fact of the matter is, looking for little slips of the tongue or word might be helpful, but it might also lead you to bark up the wrong tree just as often. Behavioral analysis is much better.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
That being said, if you think you have a solid case based on scumslips, that's fine-- feel free to present it and see how other people feel. I typically find such cases to be relatively tenuous, but I won't dismiss it out of hand before reading it.
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Read through the thread. Only thing that caught my eye so far is this (the parts in italics):
On June 05 2012 07:33 furerkip wrote:
Wait, are you serious? You just claimed Miller and said that DT shouldn't check on you because you are Miller...
Judging from your ending, you said you've played this game before. To me, that strikes me as a really odd way to just spout out "I'm miller, and you'll get a guilty on me if you check me, so don't check me, OH and by the way, I'd like to make sure you guys realize that my opinion is more important than anyone else's because I'm officially a clear because I just claimed so. And also, I'm not claiming BLUE, just as reminder, I'm a Miller so investigating me will always turn up as a negative result for you."
If you were really a Miller and had game experience, why wouldn't you just make yourself seem more of a townie? If anything, with gameplay experience, you should be able to have seen games were Millers play correctly and don't scream "I'm a Miller."
I would have called this a dumbtell, since I sincerely doubt Mafia would just do this. But fact is, your whole post is made to seem like you are a Miller, and a simple "I claim Miller" would have sufficed. But you went above and beyond that: you wanted to have town not even try to examine you unless, as you said, "I expect you to keep a very close eye on me and lynch the FUCK out of me if it looks like I'm pushing Mafia objectives…", which can be translated to "not at all" because Mafia will never try to make it obvious that they are Mafia.
##Vote VisceraEyes
My concern with the first part is that it doesn't fit at all with my interpretation of VE's post. He's not saying that his opinion is more important than everyone else's, and he sure as hell isn't saying that he's clear.
Regarding the second part, your translation of VE's statement that "I expect you to keep a very close eye on me and lynch the FUCK out of me if it looks like I'm pushing Mafia objectives..." is just faulty. He IS urging people to examine it, even if you think his criteria for lynching is bad.
Secondly, if we're not to lynch people who push mafia objectives, who'd you suggest we lynch? According to your subsequent posts, you think that we should lynch people based on scum slips or retarded play. I think that lynching people based on scum slips is weak, and that it is way better to analyze the player's performance as a whole to determine his alignment. (Scum slips might factor, but they are rarely the main argument for someone being scum, unless it's a horrendous slip.) Lynching people who are playing retardedly can be good or bad, depending on if they seem to be scum or not, but lynching someone for just bad play is not wise.
I am also a little bit curious as to why you twisted his words. Can you explain?
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EBWOP: It should be "Scum slips might factor in".
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I would let VE live for a day unless something really scummy comes out from his play.
it takes huge balls on claim this early, be it fake/real and its not a fool proof plan imo mafia or town.
Besides, from his claim, i would put all his analysis on a magnifying glass to be dismembered and examined piece by piece.
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Claiming miller when self-aware is definately something that should be done no? Furekip, how does it hurt town for us to know that he is a miller and not waste any DT checks we might have on him? Do you really think that scum is going to risk a possible counterclaim claiming miller at the very first post like that? (I am not really certain how this setup generator works but I dont think that there can be 2 millers?)
Naturally this doesnt mean that VE is clear from any suspision - Its still a possible play for mafia.
And lynching based on "scumslips" alone is generally not a good idea as artansis pointed out. More often than not these "scumslips" are made by townies. Trust me when I say I know this because I "slipped" (as a VT) by saying "to town" in my first game.
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On June 05 2012 11:15 Hyaach wrote:
I would let VE live for a day unless something really scummy comes out from his play.
it takes huge balls on claim this early, be it fake/real and its not a fool proof plan imo mafia or town.
Besides, from his claim, i would put all his analysis on a magnifying glass to be dismembered and examined piece by piece.
Why would it take "huge balls" to claim if he is town?
Why would you let him live for only "a day"?
Why would you put his analysis specifically to be dismembered and examined just because his is immune to checks? Does this mean you think this claim is suspicious?
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I'm trying to decide if kips motivation is coming from a scum standpoint.
On the one hand the suggestion that getting rid of "retarded townies" is somehow beneficial to town is blatantly anti-town and at worst indicative of furerkip pushing a mafia agenda. However, newer players get it in their mind somehow that the actions of townies can damage town somehow worse than the very real consequence of their death, which is shortening the game. Town's aim needs to be lengthening the game, not shortening it. That's why we aim for scum every single lynch, because every scum lynch increases the number of days the game lasts.
What gets me the most about furerkip is the fact that he is operating under the assumption that we're clear to "kill a retarded townie" under the assumption that we have "1 Mislynch we can work with". It's in this post...
On June 05 2012 07:37 furerkip wrote:
On another note as to why I think VisceraEyes should be lynched, is because if there are 4 mafia, and 12 players, then we have 1 Mislynch we can work with, which is fine to use on retarded townies. That's just my belief when I play though. Anyone want to add anything?
...I don't understand the motivation behind this post. Like, as a townie, I'm not thinking in terms of how many townies we can kill before it's game over. I'm thinking in terms of killing scum. I aim for killing scum with the lynch, and so the number of townies "we can safely kill before LYLO" isn't even a concern to me because that number increases every lynch by my expectation, not decreases.
However, all of that being said, I can see him being a newer town not really knowing what's best for town, yet acting like he does to try and establish his innocence, which IS a mark in his favor where I'm concerned. Also it doesn't make sense for scum to be so brashly antagonistic so early in the game, though I am NOT ruling it out.
Ultimately, I'd be interested to see what furerkip has to say about people other than me before coming to a conclusion about where I think he's coming from. Obviously my view is skewed of him right now because his only act in the game has been attacking me.
What does everyone else think about furerkip? His stance on my claim is a pretty good one to discuss, what are your thoughts on his interpretation of my claim?
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I wrote him off as newbie who focuses on easier things like slips (which I've almost never seen actually hit scum) and hitting people who are playing badly or using bad logic (only really a scumtell if you know they should in fact be playing better) which is a pretty common newbie trait in my experience, it reads pretty null but I'd lean town as if it's based in the newbiness that it looks like then I'd expect him to be much quieter as scum.
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Also I'm going to suggest we policy-lynch Katina if she doesn't prove her worth to town by providing us with some sort of content to be held accountable for if we are unable to find a suitable scummy candidate. Her meta shows that she's going to lurk regardless of her alignment, so I'd really rather just lynch her now before she becomes dangerous late-game (ya I know ur dangerous late-game suck it) if she's scum.
Many of you have played with her before and know how frustrating not being able to determine her alignment can be. I submit Katina as our fall-back lynch unless she's able to satisfactorily contribute to today's discussion.
@Katina
Don't look at it as me trying to kill you. Look at it as me trying to get you to post. But keep in mind that I will try and kill you if you don't. ^^
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On June 05 2012 12:08 zelblade wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 11:15 Hyaach wrote:
I would let VE live for a day unless something really scummy comes out from his play.
it takes huge balls on claim this early, be it fake/real and its not a fool proof plan imo mafia or town.
Besides, from his claim, i would put all his analysis on a magnifying glass to be dismembered and examined piece by piece. Why would it take "huge balls" to claim if he is town? Why would you let him live for only "a day"? Why would you put his analysis specifically to be dismembered and examined just because his is immune to checks? Does this mean you think this claim is suspicious?
Because claiming miller is no way a checkable role and if his town, he has painted a target on his head, and if his scum, he has no town cred still because his analysis needs to be look thoroughly like i've stated. Its somewhat like mayor. You get a good campaign, but no one really trust you until you prove your worth and that's roughly on day 2 after 1 day of discussion and some night action where we can do basic reads on people.
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I think furer likes to talk a lot and he's going to have a damn hard time keeping this up if he's scum.
Seems like some people are writing him off as a newbie though, which I think is dangerous. He's mentioned that he's played elsewhere so he could be quite experienced. Like I said though, if he likes to play rash and talk a lot and he's scum, eventually he'll have to start contradicting himself so just keep close tabs on what he says.
As far as the mislynch policy: Seems like just a policy. Good to know that he believes this so we can hold him to this belief later on in the game.
@VE, In one sentence you claim that:
Town's aim needs to be lengthening the game, not shortening it. That's why we aim for scum every single lynch, because every scum lynch increases the number of days the game lasts.
Yet you follow it up with this:
Also I'm going to suggest we policy-lynch Katina if she doesn't prove her worth to town by providing us with some sort of content to be held accountable for if we are unable to find a suitable scummy candidate.
Care to explain? Is Katina really that unhelpful as town?
@MrZentor: Your first post today is what I would call extremely 'safe'. While I don't expect the same self-voting Zentor as last time, I do expect someone who can get reactions out of people in order to help town. Please don't sacrifice that.
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How does claiming miller paint a targert on his head if hes town when its an anti-town role.
And you didnt answer this: Why did you state that you are going to let him leave for only "a day?"
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If his a miller, his town, he plays great. Why not shoot him. If his miller, he is town, he plays bad, why not keep him alive and let town lynch. if his scum, plays townie. good for us, if his scum plays scums, lynch him.
I think you are reading too much into my grammar. nitpicking at little things. if you actually read my previous explanation and exercise the same nitpick you did in that post you would realize I did explain to you
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Eh wait what did you mean by "paint a targert on his head"
It generally means a targert for scum to shoot (thats what I thought you said) but did you mean a targert to be lynched instead?
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I mean a red cross for everyone. his neutral right now true grey.
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I think that furerkip's play perfectly resembles the play of someone who've played a lot on Epicmafia. Because of the short days/nights (a few minutes) it's impossible to do solid behavior analysis on people, so they tend to focus a lot more on scum slips. That would explain his thought that scum slips and scumminess correlate so well. It still doesn't explain why he would interpret VE's first post in such a biased way though.
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EPT
