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Nah man I had it coming. It was this post...
On June 05 2012 15:54 Snarfs wrote:I think furer likes to talk a lot and he's going to have a damn hard time keeping this up if he's scum.
Seems like some people are writing him off as a newbie though, which I think is dangerous. He's mentioned that he's played elsewhere so he could be quite experienced. Like I said though, if he likes to play rash and talk a lot and he's scum, eventually he'll have to start contradicting himself so just keep close tabs on what he says.
As far as the mislynch policy: Seems like just a policy. Good to know that he believes this so we can hold him to this belief later on in the game.@VE, In one sentence you claim that: Show nested quote +Town's aim needs to be lengthening the game, not shortening it. That's why we aim for scum every single lynch, because every scum lynch increases the number of days the game lasts. Yet you follow it up with this: Show nested quote +Also I'm going to suggest we policy-lynch Katina if she doesn't prove her worth to town by providing us with some sort of content to be held accountable for if we are unable to find a suitable scummy candidate. Care to explain? Is Katina really that unhelpful as town?
@MrZentor: Your first post today is what I would call extremely 'safe'. While I don't expect the same self-voting Zentor as last time, I do expect someone who can get reactions out of people in order to help town. Please don't sacrifice that.
You didn't hold furer to this at all and when I got him lynched I was coming after YOU bro.
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Scum, why'd you never kill me? I was certain I was going to die the night Shraft died.
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On June 20 2012 07:26 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
Scum, why'd you never kill me? I was certain I was going to die the night Shraft died.
Shraft was more onto Nav than you were and I came in and made a snap decision to kill him. Wasn't much more thought than that in there.
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On June 20 2012 07:26 VisceraEyes wrote:Nah man I had it coming. It was this post... Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 15:54 Snarfs wrote:I think furer likes to talk a lot and he's going to have a damn hard time keeping this up if he's scum.
Seems like some people are writing him off as a newbie though, which I think is dangerous. He's mentioned that he's played elsewhere so he could be quite experienced. Like I said though, if he likes to play rash and talk a lot and he's scum, eventually he'll have to start contradicting himself so just keep close tabs on what he says.
As far as the mislynch policy: Seems like just a policy. Good to know that he believes this so we can hold him to this belief later on in the game.@VE, In one sentence you claim that: Town's aim needs to be lengthening the game, not shortening it. That's why we aim for scum every single lynch, because every scum lynch increases the number of days the game lasts. Yet you follow it up with this: Also I'm going to suggest we policy-lynch Katina if she doesn't prove her worth to town by providing us with some sort of content to be held accountable for if we are unable to find a suitable scummy candidate. Care to explain? Is Katina really that unhelpful as town?
@MrZentor: Your first post today is what I would call extremely 'safe'. While I don't expect the same self-voting Zentor as last time, I do expect someone who can get reactions out of people in order to help town. Please don't sacrifice that. You didn't hold furer to this at all and when I got him lynched I was coming after YOU bro.
To be fair, it's hard to hold someone to something when they don't even return to the thread.
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Look at the first line? That's my point exactly - you shouldn't have said it if you never intended to hold him to it. It's indicative of pushing an agenda.
"If he doesn't keep posting like this, I'm going to be suspicious!"
Doesn't post.
"I'm still not suspicious!"
Like, I get that he disappeared, but you took time out of your day to say that his activity was what led you to "think he's town" which was the tone I got from that post...however you never followed up once his activity waned.
Edit:
...which is funny because you guys planned to bus him. LOL
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Naw, a guy not even being around isn't indicative of a change in posting behaviour. It's indicative of a loss of interest in the game.
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I have no doubt though that you would have had me lynched much sooner. That's why I shot you 
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I think you played a good game Snarfs. Though some things did make me wonder, they were small enough that you could've defended yourself. If Ghost didn't claim in the end I would've had a tough time choosing between you and Ghost.
I'm pretty sure I would've gotten Navillus though once Palmar flipped and I read his filter again. The disconnect on his stance on Palmar was just too great.
Overall, Mafia played better and we got lucky that Palmar got modkilled and that ghost happened not to check Navillus. Too much game speculation wasn't good for town and was what (should've) killed us.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
Artanis, you got the correct read on ghost's claim which I do not, so props to you.
I was absolutely apoplectic about it in obsQT.
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In a game where the last three people to claim got lynched, I figured Mafia is not going to fakeclaim at LYLO.
This read was confirmed when thinking about how Mafia would make such a fakeclaim.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
yes, but I could not comprehend how at mylo a DT wouldn't try to lynch into their red-check.
Barring modkill that lost the game for town and I just couldn't believe a townie would do that.
I also could not believe he checked Zentor and not Navillus in that situation.
Your analysis, however, that scum wouldn't make such a claim was correct. I just couldn't get over not lynching red-check at mylo/lylo.
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On June 20 2012 08:00 marvellosity wrote:
yes, but I could not comprehend how at mylo a DT wouldn't try to lynch into their red-check.
Barring modkill that lost the game for town and I just couldn't believe a townie would do that.
In Ghost's first game here, he was vig and never fired. Town eventually lost at LYLO because one townie wasn't voting for the scum candidate. So he had form on greedy blue play.
The DT never claimed in that game either with a red check on scum, which is funny because everyone in the ObsQT had figured out they were DT anyway.
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It would have been really, really, really hard to lynch Palmar when we were at Lylo. He'd been in the game for all of a cycle, and hadn't really had time to contribute anything. His filter was basically him saying 'Hi', calling BH scum (which was obvious), declaring himself town for Furerkip wanting to lynch VE, and saying he needed more time to think about Zelblade. Without outing myself as a DT, Palmar would have had to have been lynched as a policy lynch, which is an extraordinarily bad idea at lylo. Outing myself, townies and scum could have easily claimed that there was a framer in the game. I chose option (c), lynch the guy who seems scummiest, and caught a lucky break.
tl;dr, seemed like a good idea at the time.
edit: also, what jaj said 
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
There's no point being a hidden DT if town lost the game though, which should have happened >.<
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Australia3894 Posts
Bad luck Snarfs, I was shouting for you all the way! You're still my favourite "newbie" (you ain't a newbie anymore that's for sure). You just got screwed by a team that doesn't bother to play. It ain't fun but you did better than I would have.
On June 20 2012 06:58 wherebugsgo wrote:
On day 1 Pandain fake claimed vig, which is in itself a very poor play. I recall thinking to myself, “good luck with the shitstorm this will cause, Pandain,” and surely enough day 1 was thrown by town self destructing. However, anyone who was on the town side at this time should have seen and realized that mafia very very rarely do such a bold and self destructive move on day 1.
Furerkip illogically shed doubt on VE's miller claim and made it seem like only a thing scum would do, when in fact it was the 100% optimal move for a town miller to make in that situation. This should have set off alarm bells in the heads of town, but sadly barely anyone noticed.
Bugs, how are these two any different?
If you say Pandain acting ridiculous in a manner that causes confusion and makes no sense for scum, makes him look townie, how does furekip's stupid theory about VE make him scum? There was no way VE would get lynched after immediately claiming miller, as he clearly explained. The benefit to scum was that furekip gets called out for stupid reasoning? It was bad scum play, but I find it hard to differentiate from Pandain's claim.
The only difference I can think of is that Pandain was proactive in his claim whilst furekip was reacting to VE.
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There is a clear difference. Pandain wasn't trying to make anyone specific look bad, he wasn't undermining anything. What about his claim had a scum agenda? He was calling attention to himself. The reasons outlined by townies against him were fairly good. A town vig claiming d1 is very antitown because he can't shoot the next night. His claim was utterly pointless if he was actually a vig and hugely damaging. Sure, only townies do something so stupid, but he still destroyed discussion.
Furerkip was calling attention to VE's claim and undermining it specifically for very poor reasons. The scum agenda behind this is that he was undermining a valid and pro-town play by calling it antitown. Pandain's claim was never pro-town. The difference between a townie doing a play and it actually being beneficial for town is huge. Both mafia and town make "pro-town" plays all the time and both mafia and town do anti-town plays. The difference is the manner. Townies who damage town do it directly and obviously. Mafia who do it tend to try to not take responsibility by undermining other players.
There are exceptions (such as very blatant mafia busses; think Toad/VE from LI) but these are rare.
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Australia3894 Posts
Thanks bugs, that makes your reasoning clearer 
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GG everyone, and thanks WBG and HiroPro for hosting and co-hosting. Sad that the game was decided by Palmar being mod killed.
I know from before that my scum hunting skills aren't very good, so this game I tried to focus more on looking town and reading other people's thoughts and researching their scum suspects. I'd appreciate pointers on my play, especially advice on how I can improve my scum hunting.
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On June 20 2012 08:34 ghost_403 wrote:It would have been really, really, really hard to lynch Palmar when we were at Lylo. He'd been in the game for all of a cycle, and hadn't really had time to contribute anything. His filter was basically him saying 'Hi', calling BH scum (which was obvious), declaring himself town for Furerkip wanting to lynch VE, and saying he needed more time to think about Zelblade. Without outing myself as a DT, Palmar would have had to have been lynched as a policy lynch, which is an extraordinarily bad idea at lylo. Outing myself, townies and scum could have easily claimed that there was a framer in the game. I chose option (c), lynch the guy who seems scummiest, and caught a lucky break. tl;dr, seemed like a good idea at the time. edit: also, what jaj said
This is completely wrong.
The definition of lylo is "lynch (correctly) or lose." This is slightly different from mylo which is mislynch and lose, where you can still no-lynch and be fine. IIRC there were four town and three mafia when you all chose to kill zelblade. That made it lylo, since with one kill after a no-lynch the town has lost.
What does that mean? It means you have to lynch scum in order to progress. Lynching a townie is an automatic loss. Thus, who cares if you have to claim DT? You do whatever it takes to lynch scum, and if you have a red check that means lynching said red check. The ONLY way that the red check is false is if a framer checked that guy on the same night or if he's an unclaimed miller. The first is a standard risk that almost any DT deals with and the second is preposterous close to endgame.
So why the hell as a DT would you want to kill someone you don't know anything about? Literally the only compelling reason to kill zelblade over anyone else is because the SK called him out, and by all means the SK is no different than a vanilla town when finding mafia.
In addition, you had a town check on Artanis at that point, if I'm not mistaken (or someone else who was alive). That's two checks. One correct lynch, and it's 3v2. In addition you clear both yourself and artanis, leaving 3 players and a whopping 67% chance to hit scum.
This part is a bit wrong; when you claim you'll pigeonhole the mafia shot into either yourself or your green check. Optimal scum play there is to shoot the green check and RB the DT, but even so you have 1 confirmed town out of 5 players and it's 50/50 to hit scum.
Zentor was the third town in that situation and he could confirm himself by blocking the scum shot.
Spreadsheet:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AvRGXY4QJLzOdHNaMVg3RFNvMlE4WV8yTkpHSE12T0E
I'm going to update what I can in a bit.
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EPT
