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On May 23 2012 18:01 Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 17:57 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 17:53 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 17:18 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 17:10 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 16:53 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 15:39 Scarecrow wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 14:09 alypse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 09:31 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 00:12 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 22:23 Scarecrow wrote:On May 22 2012 21:26 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:17 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 21:11 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:07 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 21:05 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:01 Caihead wrote:
[quote]
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning. He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest? How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So? Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"? Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation. Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will. Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat. I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth. From Jangbi's interview: "You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won." You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms. My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled? Your evidence: personal theorycrafting On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote:
If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make. I assumed you'd be one of those clueless theorycrafters blaming that loss on flash being stupid and not massing vultures off his 2 factories when he was vs'ing dragoon reaver. Even if he somehow holds the zealots he has a tank count of 1-2 vs a 3 base toss and a grand total of 2 factories (i.e. dead). I'm done with this thread anyway, there's clearly no convincing you as you seem to have only the most basic understanding of how the game works. I'm afraid the clueless theorycrafter here is you, since that's not the purpose of using vultures in that game. Just 2 or 3 vultures lay mines in front of his nat would most probably prevent the fatal zealot stream into his base, causing the GG. The thing he needs is some mines, he doesn't need to mass vultures. But let's just stop at that. I also want to end the argument here, since you keep ignoring every facts I present and this will lead to nowhere. Your answer to everything seems to be get really behind, get vultures, mine up the nat and hope your opponent is D- And yours seems to be ignoring everything else other than your opinion. Not to mention the one playing here is Flash. You're the one saying what Flash did was wrong. Also I'm listening to everyone else's opinion (Turbovolver, Caihead, Endy and others), the only one in disagreement is yours.
.... What I meant was it's Flash defending if he did choose not to commit to bio. And I have seen several times in this forum alone when not everybody has the same opinion; when few disagree with the majority.
On May 23 2012 18:00 Caihead wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 17:57 alypse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 17:53 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 17:18 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 17:10 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 16:53 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 15:39 Scarecrow wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 14:09 alypse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 09:31 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 00:12 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 22:23 Scarecrow wrote:On May 22 2012 21:26 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:17 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 21:11 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:07 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 21:05 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:01 Caihead wrote:
[quote]
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning. He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest? How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So? Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"? Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation. Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will. Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat. I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth. From Jangbi's interview: "You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won." You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms. My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled? Your evidence: personal theorycrafting On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote:
If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make. I assumed you'd be one of those clueless theorycrafters blaming that loss on flash being stupid and not massing vultures off his 2 factories when he was vs'ing dragoon reaver. Even if he somehow holds the zealots he has a tank count of 1-2 vs a 3 base toss and a grand total of 2 factories (i.e. dead). I'm done with this thread anyway, there's clearly no convincing you as you seem to have only the most basic understanding of how the game works. I'm afraid the clueless theorycrafter here is you, since that's not the purpose of using vultures in that game. Just 2 or 3 vultures lay mines in front of his nat would most probably prevent the fatal zealot stream into his base, causing the GG. The thing he needs is some mines, he doesn't need to mass vultures. But let's just stop at that. I also want to end the argument here, since you keep ignoring every facts I present and this will lead to nowhere. Your answer to everything seems to be get really behind, get vultures, mine up the nat and hope your opponent is D- And yours seems to be ignoring everything else other than your opinion. Not to mention the one playing here is Flash. ... and your ignoring the opinions of two progamers, flash and jangbi.
I don't even know what to say about this. You're just arguing for the sake of argue, not to get to the point....
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On May 23 2012 17:47 alypse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 17:36 Caihead wrote:On May 23 2012 16:53 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 15:39 Scarecrow wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 14:09 alypse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 09:31 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 00:12 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 22:23 Scarecrow wrote:On May 22 2012 21:26 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:17 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 21:11 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:07 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 21:05 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:01 Caihead wrote:
[quote]
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning. He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest? How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So? Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"? Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation. Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will. Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat. I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth. From Jangbi's interview: "You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won." You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms. My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled? Your evidence: personal theorycrafting On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote:
If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy Based on your so-called "evidence", you have no more than what I have. And it's all theorycraft on a situation that you never know the outcome when it's not actually played out. And simply because there's more people agreeing on the same strategy doesn't mean it's always absolutely right. So you're saying bio vs DTs/storms are the best choice then? You still have zip to prove that. About your "evidence" of progamers' game sense, how many times did you see pros make mistakes? And while Flash is the best T in the world, his judgment (and sometimes stubbornness) have cost him quite a lot of games. Look at his games in the last grand finals. Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make. Christ, it's as simple as this. Flash was too late into his build to cancel out of it into a mech one. You complaining that he was using bio mech to fight jangbi's build is like complaining that Jaedong didn't cancel his hatchery after he went 12 hatch against a 9 pool. The point is that he has to do what he can with the existing build because the alternative is even worse an option. Everybody knows that bio against storms is auto death, which is why flash had to win before storm finished, and he almost got it against all odds, look at the replay, storm was finished literally 10 seconds before flash's marines got stormed. Using your logic every single game where there is unscoutable tech / army composition the loser is entirely to blame. Namely, 90% of all ZvZ's where overlords don't scout each other, all TvP's where the protoss won with reaver / shuttle or 2 base carrier, all games involving stealth units or rushes or timing attacks. The examples you gave criticizing Flash going dropship play vs Fantasy is just hilarious. Flash's only chance back into the game was the doom drop in fantasy's main using drop ships and he succeeded, he only lost because Fantasy's huge early-mid lead and banked resources allowed him to go mass wraiths. Another assumption... About that game vs Fanta, Flash had all the choice and capabilities to go for a full air force. Saying that the only chance for Flash is to use dropships is really wrong. And he could go for the air-based played play from the beginning, but somehow, IIRC, after a few valks he began to mass dropships. I don't know if it's misjudgment or stubbornness, but it's really his own fault. How many games did you watch in which dropships prevail against wraith/valks? I watched a lot TvT and I saw none. About this OSL game, I'm done with it. I don't want to repeat myself again and again.
Go back and watch the game vs Fantasy alright. Flash was way behind and getting contained by a ground force past the middle two expansions (9 and 3 o'clock), he didn't have the time or resources to air switch. Mass dropship was the correct judgement against a massive ground force with minimal air, and the doom drop was fucking genius. Fantasy had zero incentives of going mass air before the doom drop because he was already sieging up Flash's bases and has a superior economy / factory count. Fantasy's response of mass wraiths after losing his factories while still having ground forces containing flash was also the correct judgement.
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On May 23 2012 18:08 alypse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 18:01 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 17:57 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 17:53 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 17:18 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 17:10 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 16:53 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 15:39 Scarecrow wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 14:09 alypse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 09:31 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 00:12 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 22:23 Scarecrow wrote:On May 22 2012 21:26 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:17 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 21:11 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:07 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 21:05 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:01 Caihead wrote:
[quote]
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning. He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest? How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So? Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"? Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation. Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will. Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat. I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth. From Jangbi's interview: "You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won." You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms. My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled? Your evidence: personal theorycrafting On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote:
If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make. I assumed you'd be one of those clueless theorycrafters blaming that loss on flash being stupid and not massing vultures off his 2 factories when he was vs'ing dragoon reaver. Even if he somehow holds the zealots he has a tank count of 1-2 vs a 3 base toss and a grand total of 2 factories (i.e. dead). I'm done with this thread anyway, there's clearly no convincing you as you seem to have only the most basic understanding of how the game works. I'm afraid the clueless theorycrafter here is you, since that's not the purpose of using vultures in that game. Just 2 or 3 vultures lay mines in front of his nat would most probably prevent the fatal zealot stream into his base, causing the GG. The thing he needs is some mines, he doesn't need to mass vultures. But let's just stop at that. I also want to end the argument here, since you keep ignoring every facts I present and this will lead to nowhere. Your answer to everything seems to be get really behind, get vultures, mine up the nat and hope your opponent is D- And yours seems to be ignoring everything else other than your opinion. Not to mention the one playing here is Flash. You're the one saying what Flash did was wrong. Also I'm listening to everyone else's opinion (Turbovolver, Caihead, Endy and others), the only one in disagreement is yours. .... What I meant was it's Flash defending if he did choose not to commit to bio. And I have seen several times in this forum alone when not everybody has the same opinion; when few disagree with the majority. Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 18:00 Caihead wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 17:57 alypse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 17:53 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 17:18 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 17:10 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 16:53 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 15:39 Scarecrow wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 14:09 alypse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 09:31 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 00:12 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 22:23 Scarecrow wrote:On May 22 2012 21:26 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:17 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 21:11 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:07 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 21:05 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:01 Caihead wrote:
[quote]
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning. He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest? How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So? Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"? Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation. Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will. Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat. I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth. From Jangbi's interview: "You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won." You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms. My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled? Your evidence: personal theorycrafting On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote:
If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make. I assumed you'd be one of those clueless theorycrafters blaming that loss on flash being stupid and not massing vultures off his 2 factories when he was vs'ing dragoon reaver. Even if he somehow holds the zealots he has a tank count of 1-2 vs a 3 base toss and a grand total of 2 factories (i.e. dead). I'm done with this thread anyway, there's clearly no convincing you as you seem to have only the most basic understanding of how the game works. I'm afraid the clueless theorycrafter here is you, since that's not the purpose of using vultures in that game. Just 2 or 3 vultures lay mines in front of his nat would most probably prevent the fatal zealot stream into his base, causing the GG. The thing he needs is some mines, he doesn't need to mass vultures. But let's just stop at that. I also want to end the argument here, since you keep ignoring every facts I present and this will lead to nowhere. Your answer to everything seems to be get really behind, get vultures, mine up the nat and hope your opponent is D- And yours seems to be ignoring everything else other than your opinion. Not to mention the one playing here is Flash. ... and your ignoring the opinions of two progamers, flash and jangbi. I don't even know what to say about this. You're just arguing for the sake of argue, not to get to the point....
I'm arguing because Jangbi was right, and that his opinion is proven by logical induction (his experience and logical thought process concluded that he already won when he saw the barracks because he understands PvT from the protoss perspective and knows the terran can't beat his build or transition out of it) as well as empirical evidence (he won). Flash's opinion also matters because he's consistently been the top 1-2 terran in the world as well as having top 1-3 TvP as well as having personal stake in winning the match. Flash's opinion isn't wrong just because he lost a game where he had nothing but bad luck (scouting jangbi last resulting in it being denied, going bio to counter mass dragoons and having jangbi go templar tech) and disadvantages (losing scvs with an econ build, having no time or resources to transition out of his build).
I'm trying to invoke professional (and it is professional, these people are professional gamers at the top of the food chain) credibility to add to my argument. What is your point? I'm backing my opinion up with facts, statistics, build analysis, and showing why from the player's perspective these choices make sense. What you've done is insist on a build switch which is completely illogical.
How about this Alypse. Can you try to find an instance where any player, any player at all, canceled his production / tech structures entirely to start another build at a much delayed timing? Because there are hundreds of instances where players have WON with a weaker or non optimal build that they kept going even after being scouted / countered because they can't transition out of it. Show me something in the contrary.
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On May 23 2012 18:09 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 17:47 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 17:36 Caihead wrote:On May 23 2012 16:53 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 15:39 Scarecrow wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 14:09 alypse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 09:31 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 00:12 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 22:23 Scarecrow wrote:On May 22 2012 21:26 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:17 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 21:11 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:07 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 21:05 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:01 Caihead wrote:
[quote]
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning. He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest? How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So? Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"? Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation. Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will. Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat. I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth. From Jangbi's interview: "You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won." You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms. My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled? Your evidence: personal theorycrafting On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote:
If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy Based on your so-called "evidence", you have no more than what I have. And it's all theorycraft on a situation that you never know the outcome when it's not actually played out. And simply because there's more people agreeing on the same strategy doesn't mean it's always absolutely right. So you're saying bio vs DTs/storms are the best choice then? You still have zip to prove that. About your "evidence" of progamers' game sense, how many times did you see pros make mistakes? And while Flash is the best T in the world, his judgment (and sometimes stubbornness) have cost him quite a lot of games. Look at his games in the last grand finals. Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make. Christ, it's as simple as this. Flash was too late into his build to cancel out of it into a mech one. You complaining that he was using bio mech to fight jangbi's build is like complaining that Jaedong didn't cancel his hatchery after he went 12 hatch against a 9 pool. The point is that he has to do what he can with the existing build because the alternative is even worse an option. Everybody knows that bio against storms is auto death, which is why flash had to win before storm finished, and he almost got it against all odds, look at the replay, storm was finished literally 10 seconds before flash's marines got stormed. Using your logic every single game where there is unscoutable tech / army composition the loser is entirely to blame. Namely, 90% of all ZvZ's where overlords don't scout each other, all TvP's where the protoss won with reaver / shuttle or 2 base carrier, all games involving stealth units or rushes or timing attacks. The examples you gave criticizing Flash going dropship play vs Fantasy is just hilarious. Flash's only chance back into the game was the doom drop in fantasy's main using drop ships and he succeeded, he only lost because Fantasy's huge early-mid lead and banked resources allowed him to go mass wraiths. Another assumption... About that game vs Fanta, Flash had all the choice and capabilities to go for a full air force. Saying that the only chance for Flash is to use dropships is really wrong. And he could go for the air-based played play from the beginning, but somehow, IIRC, after a few valks he began to mass dropships. I don't know if it's misjudgment or stubbornness, but it's really his own fault. How many games did you watch in which dropships prevail against wraith/valks? I watched a lot TvT and I saw none. About this OSL game, I'm done with it. I don't want to repeat myself again and again. Go back and watch the game vs Fantasy alright. Flash was way behind and getting contained by a ground force past the middle two expansions (9 and 3 o'clock), he didn't have the time or resources to air switch. Mass dropship was the correct judgement against a massive ground force with minimal air, and the doom drop was fucking genius. Fantasy had zero incentives of going mass air before the doom drop because he was already sieging up Flash's bases and has a superior economy / factory count. Fantasy's response of mass wraiths after losing his factories while still having ground forces containing flash was also the correct judgement.
I did watch that game several times since it's an exciting game. If you do the same you would have noticed that Flash went for dropships LONG before Fanta took 3 and 9. He intended to go dropships very early. Probably that's why he was being contained that much and did not find a way to break it, he was being too stubborn and decided to stick to dropships. Had he went for air, he would have had a lot of versatility, being able to break the contain etc... How many goliaths did you see that Fanta had at his contain? 3 or 4. He was concentrating on tanks and harrasing vultures. And that doom drop was amazing indeed, but the problem is that fanta has banked enough money by that time, and he made the right decision of massing wraiths; also he learned to protect his base from Flash's ships. You know the rest.
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On May 23 2012 18:27 alypse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 18:09 Caihead wrote:On May 23 2012 17:47 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 17:36 Caihead wrote:On May 23 2012 16:53 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 15:39 Scarecrow wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 14:09 alypse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 09:31 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 00:12 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 22:23 Scarecrow wrote:On May 22 2012 21:26 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:17 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 21:11 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:07 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 21:05 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:01 Caihead wrote:
[quote]
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning. He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest? How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So? Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"? Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation. Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will. Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat. I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth. From Jangbi's interview: "You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won." You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms. My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled? Your evidence: personal theorycrafting On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote:
If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy Based on your so-called "evidence", you have no more than what I have. And it's all theorycraft on a situation that you never know the outcome when it's not actually played out. And simply because there's more people agreeing on the same strategy doesn't mean it's always absolutely right. So you're saying bio vs DTs/storms are the best choice then? You still have zip to prove that. About your "evidence" of progamers' game sense, how many times did you see pros make mistakes? And while Flash is the best T in the world, his judgment (and sometimes stubbornness) have cost him quite a lot of games. Look at his games in the last grand finals. Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make. Christ, it's as simple as this. Flash was too late into his build to cancel out of it into a mech one. You complaining that he was using bio mech to fight jangbi's build is like complaining that Jaedong didn't cancel his hatchery after he went 12 hatch against a 9 pool. The point is that he has to do what he can with the existing build because the alternative is even worse an option. Everybody knows that bio against storms is auto death, which is why flash had to win before storm finished, and he almost got it against all odds, look at the replay, storm was finished literally 10 seconds before flash's marines got stormed. Using your logic every single game where there is unscoutable tech / army composition the loser is entirely to blame. Namely, 90% of all ZvZ's where overlords don't scout each other, all TvP's where the protoss won with reaver / shuttle or 2 base carrier, all games involving stealth units or rushes or timing attacks. The examples you gave criticizing Flash going dropship play vs Fantasy is just hilarious. Flash's only chance back into the game was the doom drop in fantasy's main using drop ships and he succeeded, he only lost because Fantasy's huge early-mid lead and banked resources allowed him to go mass wraiths. Another assumption... About that game vs Fanta, Flash had all the choice and capabilities to go for a full air force. Saying that the only chance for Flash is to use dropships is really wrong. And he could go for the air-based played play from the beginning, but somehow, IIRC, after a few valks he began to mass dropships. I don't know if it's misjudgment or stubbornness, but it's really his own fault. How many games did you watch in which dropships prevail against wraith/valks? I watched a lot TvT and I saw none. About this OSL game, I'm done with it. I don't want to repeat myself again and again. Go back and watch the game vs Fantasy alright. Flash was way behind and getting contained by a ground force past the middle two expansions (9 and 3 o'clock), he didn't have the time or resources to air switch. Mass dropship was the correct judgement against a massive ground force with minimal air, and the doom drop was fucking genius. Fantasy had zero incentives of going mass air before the doom drop because he was already sieging up Flash's bases and has a superior economy / factory count. Fantasy's response of mass wraiths after losing his factories while still having ground forces containing flash was also the correct judgement. I did watch that game several times since it's an exciting game. If you do the same you would have noticed that Flash went for dropships LONG before Fanta took 3 and 9. He intended to go dropships very early. Probably that's why he was being contained that much and did not find a way to break it, he was being too stubborn and decided to stick to dropships. Had he went for air, he would have had a lot of versatility, being able to break the contain etc... How many goliaths did you see that Fanta had at his contain? 3 or 4. He was concentrating on tanks and harrasing vultures. And that doom drop was amazing indeed, but the problem is that fanta has banked enough money by that time, and he made the right decision of massing wraiths; also he learned to protect his base from Flash's ships. You know the rest.
It's not being "stubborn" to continue a build even though it's sub-optimal when the alternative is even worse. There's a reason why when a player proxies, or rushes, or does a timing attack and gets it scouted they don't cancel the structures. It's because the alternative is even worse an option.
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On May 23 2012 18:15 Caihead wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 18:08 alypse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 18:01 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 17:57 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 17:53 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 17:18 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 17:10 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 16:53 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 15:39 Scarecrow wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 14:09 alypse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 09:31 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 00:12 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 22:23 Scarecrow wrote:On May 22 2012 21:26 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:17 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 21:11 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:07 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 21:05 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:01 Caihead wrote:
[quote]
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning. He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest? How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So? Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"? Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation. Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will. Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat. I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth. From Jangbi's interview: "You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won." You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms. My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled? Your evidence: personal theorycrafting On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote:
If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make. I assumed you'd be one of those clueless theorycrafters blaming that loss on flash being stupid and not massing vultures off his 2 factories when he was vs'ing dragoon reaver. Even if he somehow holds the zealots he has a tank count of 1-2 vs a 3 base toss and a grand total of 2 factories (i.e. dead). I'm done with this thread anyway, there's clearly no convincing you as you seem to have only the most basic understanding of how the game works. I'm afraid the clueless theorycrafter here is you, since that's not the purpose of using vultures in that game. Just 2 or 3 vultures lay mines in front of his nat would most probably prevent the fatal zealot stream into his base, causing the GG. The thing he needs is some mines, he doesn't need to mass vultures. But let's just stop at that. I also want to end the argument here, since you keep ignoring every facts I present and this will lead to nowhere. Your answer to everything seems to be get really behind, get vultures, mine up the nat and hope your opponent is D- And yours seems to be ignoring everything else other than your opinion. Not to mention the one playing here is Flash. You're the one saying what Flash did was wrong. Also I'm listening to everyone else's opinion (Turbovolver, Caihead, Endy and others), the only one in disagreement is yours. .... What I meant was it's Flash defending if he did choose not to commit to bio. And I have seen several times in this forum alone when not everybody has the same opinion; when few disagree with the majority. Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 18:00 Caihead wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 17:57 alypse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 17:53 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 17:18 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 17:10 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 16:53 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 15:39 Scarecrow wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 14:09 alypse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 09:31 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 00:12 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 22:23 Scarecrow wrote:On May 22 2012 21:26 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:17 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 21:11 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:07 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 21:05 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:01 Caihead wrote:
[quote]
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning. He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest? How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So? Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"? Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation. Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will. Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat. I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth. From Jangbi's interview: "You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won." You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms. My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled? Your evidence: personal theorycrafting On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote:
If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make. I assumed you'd be one of those clueless theorycrafters blaming that loss on flash being stupid and not massing vultures off his 2 factories when he was vs'ing dragoon reaver. Even if he somehow holds the zealots he has a tank count of 1-2 vs a 3 base toss and a grand total of 2 factories (i.e. dead). I'm done with this thread anyway, there's clearly no convincing you as you seem to have only the most basic understanding of how the game works. I'm afraid the clueless theorycrafter here is you, since that's not the purpose of using vultures in that game. Just 2 or 3 vultures lay mines in front of his nat would most probably prevent the fatal zealot stream into his base, causing the GG. The thing he needs is some mines, he doesn't need to mass vultures. But let's just stop at that. I also want to end the argument here, since you keep ignoring every facts I present and this will lead to nowhere. Your answer to everything seems to be get really behind, get vultures, mine up the nat and hope your opponent is D- And yours seems to be ignoring everything else other than your opinion. Not to mention the one playing here is Flash. ... and your ignoring the opinions of two progamers, flash and jangbi. I don't even know what to say about this. You're just arguing for the sake of argue, not to get to the point.... I'm arguing because Jangbi was right, and that his opinion is proven by logical induction (his experience and logical thought process concluded that he already won when he saw the barracks because he understands PvT from the protoss perspective and knows the terran can't beat his build or transition out of it) as well as empirical evidence (he won). Flash's opinion also matters because he's consistently been the top 1-2 terran in the world as well as having top 1-3 TvP as well as having personal stake in winning the match. Flash's opinion isn't wrong just because he lost a game where he had nothing but bad luck (scouting jangbi last resulting in it being denied, going bio to counter mass dragoons and having jangbi go templar tech) and disadvantages (losing scvs with an econ build, having no time or resources to transition out of his build). I'm trying to invoke professional (and it is professional, these people are professional gamers at the top of the food chain) credibility to add to my argument. What is your point? I'm backing my opinion up with facts, statistics, build analysis, and showing why from the player's perspective these choices make sense. What you've done is insist on a build switch which is completely illogical. How about this Alypse. Can you try to find an instance where any player, any player at all, canceled his production / tech structures entirely to start another build at a much delayed timing? Because there are hundreds of instances where players have WON with a weaker or non optimal build that they kept going even after being scouted / countered because they can't transition out of it. Show me something in the contrary.
Please, I am sure I can take everything you just said about logical induction and professional credibility to the side of my argument. I can just say that by Flash's experience and game sense and mechanics and the fact that he is the top T in the world and the consistent top 3 TvP player... so he would be completely fine should he chose the other way. Of course Jangbi could just say anything once he's won. All your facts, stats, analysis... make as much sense as mine do to me. The point is (I don't know how many times I have said this), there's nothing to prove that committing to bio is not the worst way for Flash. and I am suggesting that going for the other strategy would probably result in a higher chance of winning. Why? I explained it before, don't wanna waste my time write it down again.
I don't think I can find a situation like this when a T intends to do a switch the moment he saw the DTs.. But I remember a game between Kal and a T, where T went for bio right from the beginning, got a big advantage but still in the end got mauled by storms and DTs. The only scenario where bio works vs P is when T can deal the fatal blow to P right in the first time, and that goal can only be done when P has no knowledge of the strategy. (Turn vs Stats for example.)
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On May 23 2012 18:45 alypse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 18:15 Caihead wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 18:08 alypse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 18:01 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 17:57 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 17:53 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 17:18 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 17:10 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 16:53 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 15:39 Scarecrow wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 14:09 alypse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 09:31 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 00:12 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 22:23 Scarecrow wrote:On May 22 2012 21:26 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:17 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 21:11 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:07 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 21:05 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:01 Caihead wrote:
[quote]
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning. He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest? How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So? Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"? Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation. Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will. Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat. I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth. From Jangbi's interview: "You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won." You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms. My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled? Your evidence: personal theorycrafting On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote:
If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make. I assumed you'd be one of those clueless theorycrafters blaming that loss on flash being stupid and not massing vultures off his 2 factories when he was vs'ing dragoon reaver. Even if he somehow holds the zealots he has a tank count of 1-2 vs a 3 base toss and a grand total of 2 factories (i.e. dead). I'm done with this thread anyway, there's clearly no convincing you as you seem to have only the most basic understanding of how the game works. I'm afraid the clueless theorycrafter here is you, since that's not the purpose of using vultures in that game. Just 2 or 3 vultures lay mines in front of his nat would most probably prevent the fatal zealot stream into his base, causing the GG. The thing he needs is some mines, he doesn't need to mass vultures. But let's just stop at that. I also want to end the argument here, since you keep ignoring every facts I present and this will lead to nowhere. Your answer to everything seems to be get really behind, get vultures, mine up the nat and hope your opponent is D- And yours seems to be ignoring everything else other than your opinion. Not to mention the one playing here is Flash. You're the one saying what Flash did was wrong. Also I'm listening to everyone else's opinion (Turbovolver, Caihead, Endy and others), the only one in disagreement is yours. .... What I meant was it's Flash defending if he did choose not to commit to bio. And I have seen several times in this forum alone when not everybody has the same opinion; when few disagree with the majority. Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 18:00 Caihead wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 17:57 alypse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 17:53 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 17:18 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 17:10 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 16:53 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 15:39 Scarecrow wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 14:09 alypse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 09:31 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 00:12 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 22:23 Scarecrow wrote:On May 22 2012 21:26 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:17 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 21:11 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:07 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 21:05 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:01 Caihead wrote:
[quote]
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning. He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest? How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So? Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"? Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation. Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will. Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat. I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth. From Jangbi's interview: "You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won." You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms. My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled? Your evidence: personal theorycrafting On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote:
If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make. I assumed you'd be one of those clueless theorycrafters blaming that loss on flash being stupid and not massing vultures off his 2 factories when he was vs'ing dragoon reaver. Even if he somehow holds the zealots he has a tank count of 1-2 vs a 3 base toss and a grand total of 2 factories (i.e. dead). I'm done with this thread anyway, there's clearly no convincing you as you seem to have only the most basic understanding of how the game works. I'm afraid the clueless theorycrafter here is you, since that's not the purpose of using vultures in that game. Just 2 or 3 vultures lay mines in front of his nat would most probably prevent the fatal zealot stream into his base, causing the GG. The thing he needs is some mines, he doesn't need to mass vultures. But let's just stop at that. I also want to end the argument here, since you keep ignoring every facts I present and this will lead to nowhere. Your answer to everything seems to be get really behind, get vultures, mine up the nat and hope your opponent is D- And yours seems to be ignoring everything else other than your opinion. Not to mention the one playing here is Flash. ... and your ignoring the opinions of two progamers, flash and jangbi. I don't even know what to say about this. You're just arguing for the sake of argue, not to get to the point.... I'm arguing because Jangbi was right, and that his opinion is proven by logical induction (his experience and logical thought process concluded that he already won when he saw the barracks because he understands PvT from the protoss perspective and knows the terran can't beat his build or transition out of it) as well as empirical evidence (he won). Flash's opinion also matters because he's consistently been the top 1-2 terran in the world as well as having top 1-3 TvP as well as having personal stake in winning the match. Flash's opinion isn't wrong just because he lost a game where he had nothing but bad luck (scouting jangbi last resulting in it being denied, going bio to counter mass dragoons and having jangbi go templar tech) and disadvantages (losing scvs with an econ build, having no time or resources to transition out of his build). I'm trying to invoke professional (and it is professional, these people are professional gamers at the top of the food chain) credibility to add to my argument. What is your point? I'm backing my opinion up with facts, statistics, build analysis, and showing why from the player's perspective these choices make sense. What you've done is insist on a build switch which is completely illogical. How about this Alypse. Can you try to find an instance where any player, any player at all, canceled his production / tech structures entirely to start another build at a much delayed timing? Because there are hundreds of instances where players have WON with a weaker or non optimal build that they kept going even after being scouted / countered because they can't transition out of it. Show me something in the contrary. Please, I am sure I can take everything you just said about logical induction and professional credibility to the side of my argument. I can just say that by Flash's experience and game sense and mechanics and the fact that he is the top T in the world and the consistent top 3 TvP player... so he would be completely fine should he chose the other way. Of course Jangbi could just say anything once he's won. All your facts, stats, analysis... make as much sense as mine do to me. The point is (I don't know how many times I have said this), there's nothing to prove that committing to bio is not the worst way for Flash. and I am suggesting that going for the other strategy would probably result in a higher chance of winning. Why? I explained it before, don't wanna waste my time write it down again. I don't think I can find a situation like this when a T intends to do a switch the moment he saw the DTs.. But I remember a game between Kal and a T, where T went for bio right from the beginning, got a big advantage but still in the end got mauled by storms and DTs. The only scenario where bio works vs P is when T can deal the fatal blow to P right in the first time, and that goal can only be done when P has no knowledge of the strategy. (Turn vs Stats for example.)
Yea, except you are ignoring something. Factual evidence and game mechanics. This is ridiculous. Flash can't just make any build work, neither can any player, it has to be planned and calculated. It's a calculated decision to continue with the bio mech push. No terran progamer would chose to cancel his barracks unless he was hoping for the protoss to just drop out of the game because he knows that the protoss would either out expand him while he defends for a push that never comes since the protoss has vision of his side of the field via DT's, or the protoss would just outright kill him while there is an absence of units. You can't just use the defense that your opinion makes sense to you when there's already an established answer to the problem because Broodwar is a game with defined mechanics and numeric values. Flash's highest chance of winning was with the bio mech push before storm finishes, he couldn't pull it off.
For example: If Jaedong chose to 12 hatch and scouts his opponent already went for a 9 pool judging from the zerglings walking across the field under his overlord. ZvZ being such an established match up with defined rules, his literally only acceptable option is to continue with his hatchery production and try to defend the 9 pool pulling drones, and with the additional larvae from his second hatchery for zerglings and try to stall into the mid game. It doesn't matter what kind of a player that Jaedong is, he can't just cancel his hatchery and make sunkens / evo chamber in his main knowing that he's behind on gas, tech, and zergling count and the opponent is free to expand at will and that his natural will be denied indefinitely. Every other option is so sub-optimal that it's not even considered as a viable strategy. Same thing here, what you are suggesting is not even considered a viable strategy because of the mathematics of the build.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49484 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/vgeSL.png)
for anyone who wants to do today's LR thread.
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On May 23 2012 18:55 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 18:45 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 18:15 Caihead wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 18:08 alypse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 18:01 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 17:57 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 17:53 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 17:18 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 17:10 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 16:53 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 15:39 Scarecrow wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 14:09 alypse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 09:31 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 00:12 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 22:23 Scarecrow wrote:On May 22 2012 21:26 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:17 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 21:11 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:07 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 21:05 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:01 Caihead wrote:
[quote]
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning. He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest? How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So? Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"? Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation. Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will. Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat. I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth. From Jangbi's interview: "You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won." You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms. My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled? Your evidence: personal theorycrafting On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote:
If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make. I assumed you'd be one of those clueless theorycrafters blaming that loss on flash being stupid and not massing vultures off his 2 factories when he was vs'ing dragoon reaver. Even if he somehow holds the zealots he has a tank count of 1-2 vs a 3 base toss and a grand total of 2 factories (i.e. dead). I'm done with this thread anyway, there's clearly no convincing you as you seem to have only the most basic understanding of how the game works. I'm afraid the clueless theorycrafter here is you, since that's not the purpose of using vultures in that game. Just 2 or 3 vultures lay mines in front of his nat would most probably prevent the fatal zealot stream into his base, causing the GG. The thing he needs is some mines, he doesn't need to mass vultures. But let's just stop at that. I also want to end the argument here, since you keep ignoring every facts I present and this will lead to nowhere. Your answer to everything seems to be get really behind, get vultures, mine up the nat and hope your opponent is D- And yours seems to be ignoring everything else other than your opinion. Not to mention the one playing here is Flash. You're the one saying what Flash did was wrong. Also I'm listening to everyone else's opinion (Turbovolver, Caihead, Endy and others), the only one in disagreement is yours. .... What I meant was it's Flash defending if he did choose not to commit to bio. And I have seen several times in this forum alone when not everybody has the same opinion; when few disagree with the majority. Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 18:00 Caihead wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 17:57 alypse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 17:53 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 17:18 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 17:10 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 16:53 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 15:39 Scarecrow wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 14:09 alypse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 09:31 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 00:12 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 22:23 Scarecrow wrote:On May 22 2012 21:26 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:17 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 21:11 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:07 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 21:05 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:01 Caihead wrote:
[quote]
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning. He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest? How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So? Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"? Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation. Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will. Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat. I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth. From Jangbi's interview: "You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won." You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms. My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled? Your evidence: personal theorycrafting On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote:
If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make. I assumed you'd be one of those clueless theorycrafters blaming that loss on flash being stupid and not massing vultures off his 2 factories when he was vs'ing dragoon reaver. Even if he somehow holds the zealots he has a tank count of 1-2 vs a 3 base toss and a grand total of 2 factories (i.e. dead). I'm done with this thread anyway, there's clearly no convincing you as you seem to have only the most basic understanding of how the game works. I'm afraid the clueless theorycrafter here is you, since that's not the purpose of using vultures in that game. Just 2 or 3 vultures lay mines in front of his nat would most probably prevent the fatal zealot stream into his base, causing the GG. The thing he needs is some mines, he doesn't need to mass vultures. But let's just stop at that. I also want to end the argument here, since you keep ignoring every facts I present and this will lead to nowhere. Your answer to everything seems to be get really behind, get vultures, mine up the nat and hope your opponent is D- And yours seems to be ignoring everything else other than your opinion. Not to mention the one playing here is Flash. ... and your ignoring the opinions of two progamers, flash and jangbi. I don't even know what to say about this. You're just arguing for the sake of argue, not to get to the point.... I'm arguing because Jangbi was right, and that his opinion is proven by logical induction (his experience and logical thought process concluded that he already won when he saw the barracks because he understands PvT from the protoss perspective and knows the terran can't beat his build or transition out of it) as well as empirical evidence (he won). Flash's opinion also matters because he's consistently been the top 1-2 terran in the world as well as having top 1-3 TvP as well as having personal stake in winning the match. Flash's opinion isn't wrong just because he lost a game where he had nothing but bad luck (scouting jangbi last resulting in it being denied, going bio to counter mass dragoons and having jangbi go templar tech) and disadvantages (losing scvs with an econ build, having no time or resources to transition out of his build). I'm trying to invoke professional (and it is professional, these people are professional gamers at the top of the food chain) credibility to add to my argument. What is your point? I'm backing my opinion up with facts, statistics, build analysis, and showing why from the player's perspective these choices make sense. What you've done is insist on a build switch which is completely illogical. How about this Alypse. Can you try to find an instance where any player, any player at all, canceled his production / tech structures entirely to start another build at a much delayed timing? Because there are hundreds of instances where players have WON with a weaker or non optimal build that they kept going even after being scouted / countered because they can't transition out of it. Show me something in the contrary. Please, I am sure I can take everything you just said about logical induction and professional credibility to the side of my argument. I can just say that by Flash's experience and game sense and mechanics and the fact that he is the top T in the world and the consistent top 3 TvP player... so he would be completely fine should he chose the other way. Of course Jangbi could just say anything once he's won. All your facts, stats, analysis... make as much sense as mine do to me. The point is (I don't know how many times I have said this), there's nothing to prove that committing to bio is not the worst way for Flash. and I am suggesting that going for the other strategy would probably result in a higher chance of winning. Why? I explained it before, don't wanna waste my time write it down again. I don't think I can find a situation like this when a T intends to do a switch the moment he saw the DTs.. But I remember a game between Kal and a T, where T went for bio right from the beginning, got a big advantage but still in the end got mauled by storms and DTs. The only scenario where bio works vs P is when T can deal the fatal blow to P right in the first time, and that goal can only be done when P has no knowledge of the strategy. (Turn vs Stats for example.) Yea, except you are ignoring something. Factual evidence and game mechanics. This is ridiculous. Flash can't just make any build work, neither can any player, it has to be planned and calculated. It's a calculated decision to continue with the bio mech push. No terran progamer would chose to cancel his barracks unless he was hoping for the protoss to just drop out of the game because he knows that the protoss would either out expand him while he defends for a push that never comes since the protoss has vision of his side of the field via DT's, or the protoss would just outright kill him while there is an absence of units. You can't just use the defense that your opinion makes sense to you when there's already an established answer to the problem because Broodwar is a game with defined mechanics and numeric values. Flash's highest chance of winning was with the bio mech push before storm finishes, he couldn't pull it off.
No it's not, Flash has the lowest chance of winning when commiting to the bio push. It just couldn't works when the opponent already had the knowledge of his intention and had several DTs on guard, plus you don't know is his storms are ready or not. I'm not even talking about the possibility that he will run out of scans even before reaching Jangbi's nat. Anyway it's suicidal for Flash to do so. About the potential all-in, I already discussed it before, and I won't say it again since it looks like you're in a loop.
I agree with what Jaedong would do in your example, but the problem is this is a different situation in a different match-up. The two cannot be compared to each other.
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On May 23 2012 19:04 alypse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 18:55 Caihead wrote:On May 23 2012 18:45 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 18:15 Caihead wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 18:08 alypse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 18:01 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 17:57 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 17:53 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 17:18 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 17:10 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 16:53 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 15:39 Scarecrow wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 14:09 alypse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 09:31 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 00:12 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 22:23 Scarecrow wrote:On May 22 2012 21:26 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:17 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 21:11 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:07 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 21:05 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:01 Caihead wrote:
[quote]
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning. He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest? How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So? Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"? Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation. Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will. Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat. I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth. From Jangbi's interview: "You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won." You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms. My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled? Your evidence: personal theorycrafting On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote:
If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make. I assumed you'd be one of those clueless theorycrafters blaming that loss on flash being stupid and not massing vultures off his 2 factories when he was vs'ing dragoon reaver. Even if he somehow holds the zealots he has a tank count of 1-2 vs a 3 base toss and a grand total of 2 factories (i.e. dead). I'm done with this thread anyway, there's clearly no convincing you as you seem to have only the most basic understanding of how the game works. I'm afraid the clueless theorycrafter here is you, since that's not the purpose of using vultures in that game. Just 2 or 3 vultures lay mines in front of his nat would most probably prevent the fatal zealot stream into his base, causing the GG. The thing he needs is some mines, he doesn't need to mass vultures. But let's just stop at that. I also want to end the argument here, since you keep ignoring every facts I present and this will lead to nowhere. Your answer to everything seems to be get really behind, get vultures, mine up the nat and hope your opponent is D- And yours seems to be ignoring everything else other than your opinion. Not to mention the one playing here is Flash. You're the one saying what Flash did was wrong. Also I'm listening to everyone else's opinion (Turbovolver, Caihead, Endy and others), the only one in disagreement is yours. .... What I meant was it's Flash defending if he did choose not to commit to bio. And I have seen several times in this forum alone when not everybody has the same opinion; when few disagree with the majority. Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 18:00 Caihead wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 17:57 alypse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 17:53 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 17:18 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 17:10 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 16:53 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 15:39 Scarecrow wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 14:09 alypse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 09:31 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 00:12 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 22:23 Scarecrow wrote:On May 22 2012 21:26 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:17 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 21:11 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:07 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 21:05 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:01 Caihead wrote:
[quote]
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning. He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest? How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So? Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"? Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation. Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will. Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat. I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth. From Jangbi's interview: "You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won." You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms. My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled? Your evidence: personal theorycrafting On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote:
If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make. I assumed you'd be one of those clueless theorycrafters blaming that loss on flash being stupid and not massing vultures off his 2 factories when he was vs'ing dragoon reaver. Even if he somehow holds the zealots he has a tank count of 1-2 vs a 3 base toss and a grand total of 2 factories (i.e. dead). I'm done with this thread anyway, there's clearly no convincing you as you seem to have only the most basic understanding of how the game works. I'm afraid the clueless theorycrafter here is you, since that's not the purpose of using vultures in that game. Just 2 or 3 vultures lay mines in front of his nat would most probably prevent the fatal zealot stream into his base, causing the GG. The thing he needs is some mines, he doesn't need to mass vultures. But let's just stop at that. I also want to end the argument here, since you keep ignoring every facts I present and this will lead to nowhere. Your answer to everything seems to be get really behind, get vultures, mine up the nat and hope your opponent is D- And yours seems to be ignoring everything else other than your opinion. Not to mention the one playing here is Flash. ... and your ignoring the opinions of two progamers, flash and jangbi. I don't even know what to say about this. You're just arguing for the sake of argue, not to get to the point.... I'm arguing because Jangbi was right, and that his opinion is proven by logical induction (his experience and logical thought process concluded that he already won when he saw the barracks because he understands PvT from the protoss perspective and knows the terran can't beat his build or transition out of it) as well as empirical evidence (he won). Flash's opinion also matters because he's consistently been the top 1-2 terran in the world as well as having top 1-3 TvP as well as having personal stake in winning the match. Flash's opinion isn't wrong just because he lost a game where he had nothing but bad luck (scouting jangbi last resulting in it being denied, going bio to counter mass dragoons and having jangbi go templar tech) and disadvantages (losing scvs with an econ build, having no time or resources to transition out of his build). I'm trying to invoke professional (and it is professional, these people are professional gamers at the top of the food chain) credibility to add to my argument. What is your point? I'm backing my opinion up with facts, statistics, build analysis, and showing why from the player's perspective these choices make sense. What you've done is insist on a build switch which is completely illogical. How about this Alypse. Can you try to find an instance where any player, any player at all, canceled his production / tech structures entirely to start another build at a much delayed timing? Because there are hundreds of instances where players have WON with a weaker or non optimal build that they kept going even after being scouted / countered because they can't transition out of it. Show me something in the contrary. Please, I am sure I can take everything you just said about logical induction and professional credibility to the side of my argument. I can just say that by Flash's experience and game sense and mechanics and the fact that he is the top T in the world and the consistent top 3 TvP player... so he would be completely fine should he chose the other way. Of course Jangbi could just say anything once he's won. All your facts, stats, analysis... make as much sense as mine do to me. The point is (I don't know how many times I have said this), there's nothing to prove that committing to bio is not the worst way for Flash. and I am suggesting that going for the other strategy would probably result in a higher chance of winning. Why? I explained it before, don't wanna waste my time write it down again. I don't think I can find a situation like this when a T intends to do a switch the moment he saw the DTs.. But I remember a game between Kal and a T, where T went for bio right from the beginning, got a big advantage but still in the end got mauled by storms and DTs. The only scenario where bio works vs P is when T can deal the fatal blow to P right in the first time, and that goal can only be done when P has no knowledge of the strategy. (Turn vs Stats for example.) Yea, except you are ignoring something. Factual evidence and game mechanics. This is ridiculous. Flash can't just make any build work, neither can any player, it has to be planned and calculated. It's a calculated decision to continue with the bio mech push. No terran progamer would chose to cancel his barracks unless he was hoping for the protoss to just drop out of the game because he knows that the protoss would either out expand him while he defends for a push that never comes since the protoss has vision of his side of the field via DT's, or the protoss would just outright kill him while there is an absence of units. You can't just use the defense that your opinion makes sense to you when there's already an established answer to the problem because Broodwar is a game with defined mechanics and numeric values. Flash's highest chance of winning was with the bio mech push before storm finishes, he couldn't pull it off. No it's not, Flash has the lowest chance of winning when commiting to the bio push. It just couldn't works when the opponent already had the knowledge of his intention and had several DTs on guard, plus you don't know is his storms are ready or not. I'm not even talking about the possibility that he will run out of scans even before reaching Jangbi's nat. Anyway it's suicidal for Flash to do so. About the potential all-in, I already discussed it before, and I won't say it again since it looks like you're in a loop.
So you don't think progamers study furiously the timing windows for unit production / research? Storms take a definite amount of time to research and HT's take a definite amount of time to produce and save up enough energy to cast storm. It's even more suicidal to go for a mech switch. Show me one game where a terran does what you are suggesting.
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On May 23 2012 19:07 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 19:04 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 18:55 Caihead wrote:On May 23 2012 18:45 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 18:15 Caihead wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 18:08 alypse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 18:01 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 17:57 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 17:53 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 17:18 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 17:10 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 16:53 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 15:39 Scarecrow wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 14:09 alypse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 09:31 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 00:12 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 22:23 Scarecrow wrote:On May 22 2012 21:26 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:17 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 21:11 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:07 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 21:05 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:01 Caihead wrote:
[quote]
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning. He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest? How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So? Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"? Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation. Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will. Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat. I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth. From Jangbi's interview: "You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won." You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms. My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled? Your evidence: personal theorycrafting On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote:
If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make. I assumed you'd be one of those clueless theorycrafters blaming that loss on flash being stupid and not massing vultures off his 2 factories when he was vs'ing dragoon reaver. Even if he somehow holds the zealots he has a tank count of 1-2 vs a 3 base toss and a grand total of 2 factories (i.e. dead). I'm done with this thread anyway, there's clearly no convincing you as you seem to have only the most basic understanding of how the game works. I'm afraid the clueless theorycrafter here is you, since that's not the purpose of using vultures in that game. Just 2 or 3 vultures lay mines in front of his nat would most probably prevent the fatal zealot stream into his base, causing the GG. The thing he needs is some mines, he doesn't need to mass vultures. But let's just stop at that. I also want to end the argument here, since you keep ignoring every facts I present and this will lead to nowhere. Your answer to everything seems to be get really behind, get vultures, mine up the nat and hope your opponent is D- And yours seems to be ignoring everything else other than your opinion. Not to mention the one playing here is Flash. You're the one saying what Flash did was wrong. Also I'm listening to everyone else's opinion (Turbovolver, Caihead, Endy and others), the only one in disagreement is yours. .... What I meant was it's Flash defending if he did choose not to commit to bio. And I have seen several times in this forum alone when not everybody has the same opinion; when few disagree with the majority. Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 18:00 Caihead wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 17:57 alypse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 17:53 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 17:18 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 17:10 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 16:53 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 15:39 Scarecrow wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 14:09 alypse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 09:31 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 00:12 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 22:23 Scarecrow wrote:On May 22 2012 21:26 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:17 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 21:11 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:07 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 21:05 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:01 Caihead wrote:
[quote]
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning. He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest? How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So? Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"? Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation. Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will. Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat. I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth. From Jangbi's interview: "You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won." You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms. My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled? Your evidence: personal theorycrafting On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote:
If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make. I assumed you'd be one of those clueless theorycrafters blaming that loss on flash being stupid and not massing vultures off his 2 factories when he was vs'ing dragoon reaver. Even if he somehow holds the zealots he has a tank count of 1-2 vs a 3 base toss and a grand total of 2 factories (i.e. dead). I'm done with this thread anyway, there's clearly no convincing you as you seem to have only the most basic understanding of how the game works. I'm afraid the clueless theorycrafter here is you, since that's not the purpose of using vultures in that game. Just 2 or 3 vultures lay mines in front of his nat would most probably prevent the fatal zealot stream into his base, causing the GG. The thing he needs is some mines, he doesn't need to mass vultures. But let's just stop at that. I also want to end the argument here, since you keep ignoring every facts I present and this will lead to nowhere. Your answer to everything seems to be get really behind, get vultures, mine up the nat and hope your opponent is D- And yours seems to be ignoring everything else other than your opinion. Not to mention the one playing here is Flash. ... and your ignoring the opinions of two progamers, flash and jangbi. I don't even know what to say about this. You're just arguing for the sake of argue, not to get to the point.... I'm arguing because Jangbi was right, and that his opinion is proven by logical induction (his experience and logical thought process concluded that he already won when he saw the barracks because he understands PvT from the protoss perspective and knows the terran can't beat his build or transition out of it) as well as empirical evidence (he won). Flash's opinion also matters because he's consistently been the top 1-2 terran in the world as well as having top 1-3 TvP as well as having personal stake in winning the match. Flash's opinion isn't wrong just because he lost a game where he had nothing but bad luck (scouting jangbi last resulting in it being denied, going bio to counter mass dragoons and having jangbi go templar tech) and disadvantages (losing scvs with an econ build, having no time or resources to transition out of his build). I'm trying to invoke professional (and it is professional, these people are professional gamers at the top of the food chain) credibility to add to my argument. What is your point? I'm backing my opinion up with facts, statistics, build analysis, and showing why from the player's perspective these choices make sense. What you've done is insist on a build switch which is completely illogical. How about this Alypse. Can you try to find an instance where any player, any player at all, canceled his production / tech structures entirely to start another build at a much delayed timing? Because there are hundreds of instances where players have WON with a weaker or non optimal build that they kept going even after being scouted / countered because they can't transition out of it. Show me something in the contrary. Please, I am sure I can take everything you just said about logical induction and professional credibility to the side of my argument. I can just say that by Flash's experience and game sense and mechanics and the fact that he is the top T in the world and the consistent top 3 TvP player... so he would be completely fine should he chose the other way. Of course Jangbi could just say anything once he's won. All your facts, stats, analysis... make as much sense as mine do to me. The point is (I don't know how many times I have said this), there's nothing to prove that committing to bio is not the worst way for Flash. and I am suggesting that going for the other strategy would probably result in a higher chance of winning. Why? I explained it before, don't wanna waste my time write it down again. I don't think I can find a situation like this when a T intends to do a switch the moment he saw the DTs.. But I remember a game between Kal and a T, where T went for bio right from the beginning, got a big advantage but still in the end got mauled by storms and DTs. The only scenario where bio works vs P is when T can deal the fatal blow to P right in the first time, and that goal can only be done when P has no knowledge of the strategy. (Turn vs Stats for example.) Yea, except you are ignoring something. Factual evidence and game mechanics. This is ridiculous. Flash can't just make any build work, neither can any player, it has to be planned and calculated. It's a calculated decision to continue with the bio mech push. No terran progamer would chose to cancel his barracks unless he was hoping for the protoss to just drop out of the game because he knows that the protoss would either out expand him while he defends for a push that never comes since the protoss has vision of his side of the field via DT's, or the protoss would just outright kill him while there is an absence of units. You can't just use the defense that your opinion makes sense to you when there's already an established answer to the problem because Broodwar is a game with defined mechanics and numeric values. Flash's highest chance of winning was with the bio mech push before storm finishes, he couldn't pull it off. No it's not, Flash has the lowest chance of winning when commiting to the bio push. It just couldn't works when the opponent already had the knowledge of his intention and had several DTs on guard, plus you don't know is his storms are ready or not. I'm not even talking about the possibility that he will run out of scans even before reaching Jangbi's nat. Anyway it's suicidal for Flash to do so. About the potential all-in, I already discussed it before, and I won't say it again since it looks like you're in a loop. So you don't think progamers study furiously the timing windows for unit production / research? Storms take a definite amount of time to research and HT's take a definite amount of time to produce and save up enough energy to cast storm. It's even more suicidal to go for a mech switch. Show me one game where a terran does what you are suggesting.
It's all known too well that they practice a lot, but as many have also said, they are not perfect and quite frequently they make mistakes or false judgments or have bad timings. You said it yourself several pages ago, and now you're contradicting yourself. That aside, against DTs and storms AND limited scans, bio is surely a suicide.
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On May 23 2012 19:14 alypse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 19:07 Caihead wrote:On May 23 2012 19:04 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 18:55 Caihead wrote:On May 23 2012 18:45 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 18:15 Caihead wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 18:08 alypse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 18:01 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 17:57 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 17:53 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 17:18 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 17:10 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 16:53 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 15:39 Scarecrow wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 14:09 alypse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 09:31 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 00:12 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 22:23 Scarecrow wrote:On May 22 2012 21:26 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:17 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 21:11 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:07 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 21:05 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:01 Caihead wrote:
[quote]
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning. He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest? How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So? Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"? Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation. Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will. Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat. I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth. From Jangbi's interview: "You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won." You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms. My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled? Your evidence: personal theorycrafting On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote:
If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make. I assumed you'd be one of those clueless theorycrafters blaming that loss on flash being stupid and not massing vultures off his 2 factories when he was vs'ing dragoon reaver. Even if he somehow holds the zealots he has a tank count of 1-2 vs a 3 base toss and a grand total of 2 factories (i.e. dead). I'm done with this thread anyway, there's clearly no convincing you as you seem to have only the most basic understanding of how the game works. I'm afraid the clueless theorycrafter here is you, since that's not the purpose of using vultures in that game. Just 2 or 3 vultures lay mines in front of his nat would most probably prevent the fatal zealot stream into his base, causing the GG. The thing he needs is some mines, he doesn't need to mass vultures. But let's just stop at that. I also want to end the argument here, since you keep ignoring every facts I present and this will lead to nowhere. Your answer to everything seems to be get really behind, get vultures, mine up the nat and hope your opponent is D- And yours seems to be ignoring everything else other than your opinion. Not to mention the one playing here is Flash. You're the one saying what Flash did was wrong. Also I'm listening to everyone else's opinion (Turbovolver, Caihead, Endy and others), the only one in disagreement is yours. .... What I meant was it's Flash defending if he did choose not to commit to bio. And I have seen several times in this forum alone when not everybody has the same opinion; when few disagree with the majority. Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 18:00 Caihead wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 17:57 alypse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 17:53 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 17:18 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 17:10 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 16:53 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 15:39 Scarecrow wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 14:09 alypse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 09:31 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 00:12 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 22:23 Scarecrow wrote:On May 22 2012 21:26 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:17 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 21:11 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:07 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 21:05 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:01 Caihead wrote:
[quote]
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning. He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest? How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So? Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"? Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation. Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will. Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat. I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth. From Jangbi's interview: "You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won." You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms. My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled? Your evidence: personal theorycrafting On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote:
If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make. I assumed you'd be one of those clueless theorycrafters blaming that loss on flash being stupid and not massing vultures off his 2 factories when he was vs'ing dragoon reaver. Even if he somehow holds the zealots he has a tank count of 1-2 vs a 3 base toss and a grand total of 2 factories (i.e. dead). I'm done with this thread anyway, there's clearly no convincing you as you seem to have only the most basic understanding of how the game works. I'm afraid the clueless theorycrafter here is you, since that's not the purpose of using vultures in that game. Just 2 or 3 vultures lay mines in front of his nat would most probably prevent the fatal zealot stream into his base, causing the GG. The thing he needs is some mines, he doesn't need to mass vultures. But let's just stop at that. I also want to end the argument here, since you keep ignoring every facts I present and this will lead to nowhere. Your answer to everything seems to be get really behind, get vultures, mine up the nat and hope your opponent is D- And yours seems to be ignoring everything else other than your opinion. Not to mention the one playing here is Flash. ... and your ignoring the opinions of two progamers, flash and jangbi. I don't even know what to say about this. You're just arguing for the sake of argue, not to get to the point.... I'm arguing because Jangbi was right, and that his opinion is proven by logical induction (his experience and logical thought process concluded that he already won when he saw the barracks because he understands PvT from the protoss perspective and knows the terran can't beat his build or transition out of it) as well as empirical evidence (he won). Flash's opinion also matters because he's consistently been the top 1-2 terran in the world as well as having top 1-3 TvP as well as having personal stake in winning the match. Flash's opinion isn't wrong just because he lost a game where he had nothing but bad luck (scouting jangbi last resulting in it being denied, going bio to counter mass dragoons and having jangbi go templar tech) and disadvantages (losing scvs with an econ build, having no time or resources to transition out of his build). I'm trying to invoke professional (and it is professional, these people are professional gamers at the top of the food chain) credibility to add to my argument. What is your point? I'm backing my opinion up with facts, statistics, build analysis, and showing why from the player's perspective these choices make sense. What you've done is insist on a build switch which is completely illogical. How about this Alypse. Can you try to find an instance where any player, any player at all, canceled his production / tech structures entirely to start another build at a much delayed timing? Because there are hundreds of instances where players have WON with a weaker or non optimal build that they kept going even after being scouted / countered because they can't transition out of it. Show me something in the contrary. Please, I am sure I can take everything you just said about logical induction and professional credibility to the side of my argument. I can just say that by Flash's experience and game sense and mechanics and the fact that he is the top T in the world and the consistent top 3 TvP player... so he would be completely fine should he chose the other way. Of course Jangbi could just say anything once he's won. All your facts, stats, analysis... make as much sense as mine do to me. The point is (I don't know how many times I have said this), there's nothing to prove that committing to bio is not the worst way for Flash. and I am suggesting that going for the other strategy would probably result in a higher chance of winning. Why? I explained it before, don't wanna waste my time write it down again. I don't think I can find a situation like this when a T intends to do a switch the moment he saw the DTs.. But I remember a game between Kal and a T, where T went for bio right from the beginning, got a big advantage but still in the end got mauled by storms and DTs. The only scenario where bio works vs P is when T can deal the fatal blow to P right in the first time, and that goal can only be done when P has no knowledge of the strategy. (Turn vs Stats for example.) Yea, except you are ignoring something. Factual evidence and game mechanics. This is ridiculous. Flash can't just make any build work, neither can any player, it has to be planned and calculated. It's a calculated decision to continue with the bio mech push. No terran progamer would chose to cancel his barracks unless he was hoping for the protoss to just drop out of the game because he knows that the protoss would either out expand him while he defends for a push that never comes since the protoss has vision of his side of the field via DT's, or the protoss would just outright kill him while there is an absence of units. You can't just use the defense that your opinion makes sense to you when there's already an established answer to the problem because Broodwar is a game with defined mechanics and numeric values. Flash's highest chance of winning was with the bio mech push before storm finishes, he couldn't pull it off. No it's not, Flash has the lowest chance of winning when commiting to the bio push. It just couldn't works when the opponent already had the knowledge of his intention and had several DTs on guard, plus you don't know is his storms are ready or not. I'm not even talking about the possibility that he will run out of scans even before reaching Jangbi's nat. Anyway it's suicidal for Flash to do so. About the potential all-in, I already discussed it before, and I won't say it again since it looks like you're in a loop. So you don't think progamers study furiously the timing windows for unit production / research? Storms take a definite amount of time to research and HT's take a definite amount of time to produce and save up enough energy to cast storm. It's even more suicidal to go for a mech switch. Show me one game where a terran does what you are suggesting. It's all known too well that they practice a lot, but as many have also said, they are not perfect and quite frequently they make mistakes or false judgments or have bad timings. You said it yourself several pages ago, and now you're contradicting yourself. That aside, against DTs and storms AND limited scans, bio is surely a suicide.
It's still the only shot he has,trying to wait and turtle on 2 bases with mines is an even worse option because the protoss can just choose to macro and expand more instead of attacking when he sees that there are vultures instead of a bio attack. It's still the better choice. It's a bad decision on its own but Flash can't escape the position he was already so he needs to make do, same with trying to hold a 9 pool with a 12 hatch. You've already done the build, you can't transition out of it into a more optimal build.
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On May 23 2012 19:28 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 19:14 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 19:07 Caihead wrote:On May 23 2012 19:04 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 18:55 Caihead wrote:On May 23 2012 18:45 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 18:15 Caihead wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 18:08 alypse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 18:01 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 17:57 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 17:53 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 17:18 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 17:10 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 16:53 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 15:39 Scarecrow wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 14:09 alypse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 09:31 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 00:12 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 22:23 Scarecrow wrote:On May 22 2012 21:26 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:17 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 21:11 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:07 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 21:05 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:01 Caihead wrote:
[quote]
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning. He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest? How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So? Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"? Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation. Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will. Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat. I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth. From Jangbi's interview: "You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won." You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms. My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled? Your evidence: personal theorycrafting On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote:
If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make. I assumed you'd be one of those clueless theorycrafters blaming that loss on flash being stupid and not massing vultures off his 2 factories when he was vs'ing dragoon reaver. Even if he somehow holds the zealots he has a tank count of 1-2 vs a 3 base toss and a grand total of 2 factories (i.e. dead). I'm done with this thread anyway, there's clearly no convincing you as you seem to have only the most basic understanding of how the game works. I'm afraid the clueless theorycrafter here is you, since that's not the purpose of using vultures in that game. Just 2 or 3 vultures lay mines in front of his nat would most probably prevent the fatal zealot stream into his base, causing the GG. The thing he needs is some mines, he doesn't need to mass vultures. But let's just stop at that. I also want to end the argument here, since you keep ignoring every facts I present and this will lead to nowhere. Your answer to everything seems to be get really behind, get vultures, mine up the nat and hope your opponent is D- And yours seems to be ignoring everything else other than your opinion. Not to mention the one playing here is Flash. You're the one saying what Flash did was wrong. Also I'm listening to everyone else's opinion (Turbovolver, Caihead, Endy and others), the only one in disagreement is yours. .... What I meant was it's Flash defending if he did choose not to commit to bio. And I have seen several times in this forum alone when not everybody has the same opinion; when few disagree with the majority. Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 18:00 Caihead wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 17:57 alypse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 17:53 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 17:18 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 17:10 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 16:53 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 15:39 Scarecrow wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 14:09 alypse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 09:31 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 00:12 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 22:23 Scarecrow wrote:On May 22 2012 21:26 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:17 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 21:11 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:07 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 21:05 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:01 Caihead wrote:
[quote]
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning. He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest? How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So? Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"? Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation. Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will. Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat. I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth. From Jangbi's interview: "You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won." You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms. My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled? Your evidence: personal theorycrafting On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote:
If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make. I assumed you'd be one of those clueless theorycrafters blaming that loss on flash being stupid and not massing vultures off his 2 factories when he was vs'ing dragoon reaver. Even if he somehow holds the zealots he has a tank count of 1-2 vs a 3 base toss and a grand total of 2 factories (i.e. dead). I'm done with this thread anyway, there's clearly no convincing you as you seem to have only the most basic understanding of how the game works. I'm afraid the clueless theorycrafter here is you, since that's not the purpose of using vultures in that game. Just 2 or 3 vultures lay mines in front of his nat would most probably prevent the fatal zealot stream into his base, causing the GG. The thing he needs is some mines, he doesn't need to mass vultures. But let's just stop at that. I also want to end the argument here, since you keep ignoring every facts I present and this will lead to nowhere. Your answer to everything seems to be get really behind, get vultures, mine up the nat and hope your opponent is D- And yours seems to be ignoring everything else other than your opinion. Not to mention the one playing here is Flash. ... and your ignoring the opinions of two progamers, flash and jangbi. I don't even know what to say about this. You're just arguing for the sake of argue, not to get to the point.... I'm arguing because Jangbi was right, and that his opinion is proven by logical induction (his experience and logical thought process concluded that he already won when he saw the barracks because he understands PvT from the protoss perspective and knows the terran can't beat his build or transition out of it) as well as empirical evidence (he won). Flash's opinion also matters because he's consistently been the top 1-2 terran in the world as well as having top 1-3 TvP as well as having personal stake in winning the match. Flash's opinion isn't wrong just because he lost a game where he had nothing but bad luck (scouting jangbi last resulting in it being denied, going bio to counter mass dragoons and having jangbi go templar tech) and disadvantages (losing scvs with an econ build, having no time or resources to transition out of his build). I'm trying to invoke professional (and it is professional, these people are professional gamers at the top of the food chain) credibility to add to my argument. What is your point? I'm backing my opinion up with facts, statistics, build analysis, and showing why from the player's perspective these choices make sense. What you've done is insist on a build switch which is completely illogical. How about this Alypse. Can you try to find an instance where any player, any player at all, canceled his production / tech structures entirely to start another build at a much delayed timing? Because there are hundreds of instances where players have WON with a weaker or non optimal build that they kept going even after being scouted / countered because they can't transition out of it. Show me something in the contrary. Please, I am sure I can take everything you just said about logical induction and professional credibility to the side of my argument. I can just say that by Flash's experience and game sense and mechanics and the fact that he is the top T in the world and the consistent top 3 TvP player... so he would be completely fine should he chose the other way. Of course Jangbi could just say anything once he's won. All your facts, stats, analysis... make as much sense as mine do to me. The point is (I don't know how many times I have said this), there's nothing to prove that committing to bio is not the worst way for Flash. and I am suggesting that going for the other strategy would probably result in a higher chance of winning. Why? I explained it before, don't wanna waste my time write it down again. I don't think I can find a situation like this when a T intends to do a switch the moment he saw the DTs.. But I remember a game between Kal and a T, where T went for bio right from the beginning, got a big advantage but still in the end got mauled by storms and DTs. The only scenario where bio works vs P is when T can deal the fatal blow to P right in the first time, and that goal can only be done when P has no knowledge of the strategy. (Turn vs Stats for example.) Yea, except you are ignoring something. Factual evidence and game mechanics. This is ridiculous. Flash can't just make any build work, neither can any player, it has to be planned and calculated. It's a calculated decision to continue with the bio mech push. No terran progamer would chose to cancel his barracks unless he was hoping for the protoss to just drop out of the game because he knows that the protoss would either out expand him while he defends for a push that never comes since the protoss has vision of his side of the field via DT's, or the protoss would just outright kill him while there is an absence of units. You can't just use the defense that your opinion makes sense to you when there's already an established answer to the problem because Broodwar is a game with defined mechanics and numeric values. Flash's highest chance of winning was with the bio mech push before storm finishes, he couldn't pull it off. No it's not, Flash has the lowest chance of winning when commiting to the bio push. It just couldn't works when the opponent already had the knowledge of his intention and had several DTs on guard, plus you don't know is his storms are ready or not. I'm not even talking about the possibility that he will run out of scans even before reaching Jangbi's nat. Anyway it's suicidal for Flash to do so. About the potential all-in, I already discussed it before, and I won't say it again since it looks like you're in a loop. So you don't think progamers study furiously the timing windows for unit production / research? Storms take a definite amount of time to research and HT's take a definite amount of time to produce and save up enough energy to cast storm. It's even more suicidal to go for a mech switch. Show me one game where a terran does what you are suggesting. It's all known too well that they practice a lot, but as many have also said, they are not perfect and quite frequently they make mistakes or false judgments or have bad timings. You said it yourself several pages ago, and now you're contradicting yourself. That aside, against DTs and storms AND limited scans, bio is surely a suicide. It's still the only shot he has,trying to wait and turtle on 2 bases with mines is an even worse option because the protoss can just choose to macro and expand more instead of attacking when he sees that there are vultures instead of a bio attack. It's still the better choice. It's a bad decision on its own but Flash can't escape the position he was already so he needs to make do, same with trying to hold a 9 pool with a 12 hatch. You've already done the build, you can't transition out of it into a more optimal build.
I said it before, Flash was building up 2 raxes at that time, he hasn't finished it yet. And pretty sure the stim research has not finished. He's definitely not too deep within it and can turn his way back. Why not choose the better tactics when the one you're doing is suicidal, and the other tactics is viable? Lastly, ZvZ in general and 9 pool vs 12 hatch in particular, due to zerg's characteristics, are much tighter in terms of time and time management, so you should not compare them to this case.
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On May 23 2012 19:40 alypse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 19:28 Caihead wrote:On May 23 2012 19:14 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 19:07 Caihead wrote:On May 23 2012 19:04 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 18:55 Caihead wrote:On May 23 2012 18:45 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 18:15 Caihead wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 18:08 alypse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 18:01 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 17:57 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 17:53 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 17:18 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 17:10 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 16:53 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 15:39 Scarecrow wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 14:09 alypse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 09:31 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 00:12 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 22:23 Scarecrow wrote:On May 22 2012 21:26 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:17 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 21:11 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:07 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 21:05 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:01 Caihead wrote:
[quote]
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning. He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest? How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So? Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"? Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation. Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will. Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat. I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth. From Jangbi's interview: "You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won." You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms. My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled? Your evidence: personal theorycrafting On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote:
If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make. I assumed you'd be one of those clueless theorycrafters blaming that loss on flash being stupid and not massing vultures off his 2 factories when he was vs'ing dragoon reaver. Even if he somehow holds the zealots he has a tank count of 1-2 vs a 3 base toss and a grand total of 2 factories (i.e. dead). I'm done with this thread anyway, there's clearly no convincing you as you seem to have only the most basic understanding of how the game works. I'm afraid the clueless theorycrafter here is you, since that's not the purpose of using vultures in that game. Just 2 or 3 vultures lay mines in front of his nat would most probably prevent the fatal zealot stream into his base, causing the GG. The thing he needs is some mines, he doesn't need to mass vultures. But let's just stop at that. I also want to end the argument here, since you keep ignoring every facts I present and this will lead to nowhere. Your answer to everything seems to be get really behind, get vultures, mine up the nat and hope your opponent is D- And yours seems to be ignoring everything else other than your opinion. Not to mention the one playing here is Flash. You're the one saying what Flash did was wrong. Also I'm listening to everyone else's opinion (Turbovolver, Caihead, Endy and others), the only one in disagreement is yours. .... What I meant was it's Flash defending if he did choose not to commit to bio. And I have seen several times in this forum alone when not everybody has the same opinion; when few disagree with the majority. Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 18:00 Caihead wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 17:57 alypse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 17:53 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 17:18 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 17:10 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 16:53 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 15:39 Scarecrow wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 14:09 alypse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 09:31 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 00:12 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 22:23 Scarecrow wrote:On May 22 2012 21:26 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:17 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 21:11 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:07 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 21:05 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:01 Caihead wrote:
[quote]
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning. He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest? How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So? Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"? Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation. Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will. Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat. I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth. From Jangbi's interview: "You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won." You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms. My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled? Your evidence: personal theorycrafting On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote:
If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make. I assumed you'd be one of those clueless theorycrafters blaming that loss on flash being stupid and not massing vultures off his 2 factories when he was vs'ing dragoon reaver. Even if he somehow holds the zealots he has a tank count of 1-2 vs a 3 base toss and a grand total of 2 factories (i.e. dead). I'm done with this thread anyway, there's clearly no convincing you as you seem to have only the most basic understanding of how the game works. I'm afraid the clueless theorycrafter here is you, since that's not the purpose of using vultures in that game. Just 2 or 3 vultures lay mines in front of his nat would most probably prevent the fatal zealot stream into his base, causing the GG. The thing he needs is some mines, he doesn't need to mass vultures. But let's just stop at that. I also want to end the argument here, since you keep ignoring every facts I present and this will lead to nowhere. Your answer to everything seems to be get really behind, get vultures, mine up the nat and hope your opponent is D- And yours seems to be ignoring everything else other than your opinion. Not to mention the one playing here is Flash. ... and your ignoring the opinions of two progamers, flash and jangbi. I don't even know what to say about this. You're just arguing for the sake of argue, not to get to the point.... I'm arguing because Jangbi was right, and that his opinion is proven by logical induction (his experience and logical thought process concluded that he already won when he saw the barracks because he understands PvT from the protoss perspective and knows the terran can't beat his build or transition out of it) as well as empirical evidence (he won). Flash's opinion also matters because he's consistently been the top 1-2 terran in the world as well as having top 1-3 TvP as well as having personal stake in winning the match. Flash's opinion isn't wrong just because he lost a game where he had nothing but bad luck (scouting jangbi last resulting in it being denied, going bio to counter mass dragoons and having jangbi go templar tech) and disadvantages (losing scvs with an econ build, having no time or resources to transition out of his build). I'm trying to invoke professional (and it is professional, these people are professional gamers at the top of the food chain) credibility to add to my argument. What is your point? I'm backing my opinion up with facts, statistics, build analysis, and showing why from the player's perspective these choices make sense. What you've done is insist on a build switch which is completely illogical. How about this Alypse. Can you try to find an instance where any player, any player at all, canceled his production / tech structures entirely to start another build at a much delayed timing? Because there are hundreds of instances where players have WON with a weaker or non optimal build that they kept going even after being scouted / countered because they can't transition out of it. Show me something in the contrary. Please, I am sure I can take everything you just said about logical induction and professional credibility to the side of my argument. I can just say that by Flash's experience and game sense and mechanics and the fact that he is the top T in the world and the consistent top 3 TvP player... so he would be completely fine should he chose the other way. Of course Jangbi could just say anything once he's won. All your facts, stats, analysis... make as much sense as mine do to me. The point is (I don't know how many times I have said this), there's nothing to prove that committing to bio is not the worst way for Flash. and I am suggesting that going for the other strategy would probably result in a higher chance of winning. Why? I explained it before, don't wanna waste my time write it down again. I don't think I can find a situation like this when a T intends to do a switch the moment he saw the DTs.. But I remember a game between Kal and a T, where T went for bio right from the beginning, got a big advantage but still in the end got mauled by storms and DTs. The only scenario where bio works vs P is when T can deal the fatal blow to P right in the first time, and that goal can only be done when P has no knowledge of the strategy. (Turn vs Stats for example.) Yea, except you are ignoring something. Factual evidence and game mechanics. This is ridiculous. Flash can't just make any build work, neither can any player, it has to be planned and calculated. It's a calculated decision to continue with the bio mech push. No terran progamer would chose to cancel his barracks unless he was hoping for the protoss to just drop out of the game because he knows that the protoss would either out expand him while he defends for a push that never comes since the protoss has vision of his side of the field via DT's, or the protoss would just outright kill him while there is an absence of units. You can't just use the defense that your opinion makes sense to you when there's already an established answer to the problem because Broodwar is a game with defined mechanics and numeric values. Flash's highest chance of winning was with the bio mech push before storm finishes, he couldn't pull it off. No it's not, Flash has the lowest chance of winning when commiting to the bio push. It just couldn't works when the opponent already had the knowledge of his intention and had several DTs on guard, plus you don't know is his storms are ready or not. I'm not even talking about the possibility that he will run out of scans even before reaching Jangbi's nat. Anyway it's suicidal for Flash to do so. About the potential all-in, I already discussed it before, and I won't say it again since it looks like you're in a loop. So you don't think progamers study furiously the timing windows for unit production / research? Storms take a definite amount of time to research and HT's take a definite amount of time to produce and save up enough energy to cast storm. It's even more suicidal to go for a mech switch. Show me one game where a terran does what you are suggesting. It's all known too well that they practice a lot, but as many have also said, they are not perfect and quite frequently they make mistakes or false judgments or have bad timings. You said it yourself several pages ago, and now you're contradicting yourself. That aside, against DTs and storms AND limited scans, bio is surely a suicide. It's still the only shot he has,trying to wait and turtle on 2 bases with mines is an even worse option because the protoss can just choose to macro and expand more instead of attacking when he sees that there are vultures instead of a bio attack. It's still the better choice. It's a bad decision on its own but Flash can't escape the position he was already so he needs to make do, same with trying to hold a 9 pool with a 12 hatch. You've already done the build, you can't transition out of it into a more optimal build. He's definitely not too deep within it and can turn his way back. Why not choose the better tactics when the one you're doing is suicidal, and the other tactics is viable?
You just answered your own question. Flash knew exactly what he was up against and if he thought he could've transitioned to something better he would have. He still chose to go with his bio timing vs templar tech despite it being an uphill battle (maybe 5% or less win rate with their respective builds). Flash still chose biomech as the best tactic because your idiotic mech transition is completely non-viable in that situation. Just because you don't understand why it's not viable doesn't mean it is (multiple people have posted explaining the many ways in which toss destroys a mech transition in the context of that game). Like Caihead I challenge you to find ONE game in the history of bw where multiple production structures and tech are cancelled that late by a progamer to transition into something completely different. Now assuming you can't, your thinking either revolutionizes a 10 year old game or is fundamentally flawed. I'm going with the latter.
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On May 23 2012 22:25 Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 19:40 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 19:28 Caihead wrote:On May 23 2012 19:14 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 19:07 Caihead wrote:On May 23 2012 19:04 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 18:55 Caihead wrote:On May 23 2012 18:45 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 18:15 Caihead wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 18:08 alypse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 18:01 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 17:57 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 17:53 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 17:18 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 17:10 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 16:53 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 15:39 Scarecrow wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 14:09 alypse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 09:31 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 00:12 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 22:23 Scarecrow wrote:On May 22 2012 21:26 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:17 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 21:11 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:07 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 21:05 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:01 Caihead wrote:
[quote]
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning. He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest? How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So? Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"? Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation. Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will. Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat. I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth. From Jangbi's interview: "You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won." You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms. My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled? Your evidence: personal theorycrafting On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote:
If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make. I assumed you'd be one of those clueless theorycrafters blaming that loss on flash being stupid and not massing vultures off his 2 factories when he was vs'ing dragoon reaver. Even if he somehow holds the zealots he has a tank count of 1-2 vs a 3 base toss and a grand total of 2 factories (i.e. dead). I'm done with this thread anyway, there's clearly no convincing you as you seem to have only the most basic understanding of how the game works. I'm afraid the clueless theorycrafter here is you, since that's not the purpose of using vultures in that game. Just 2 or 3 vultures lay mines in front of his nat would most probably prevent the fatal zealot stream into his base, causing the GG. The thing he needs is some mines, he doesn't need to mass vultures. But let's just stop at that. I also want to end the argument here, since you keep ignoring every facts I present and this will lead to nowhere. Your answer to everything seems to be get really behind, get vultures, mine up the nat and hope your opponent is D- And yours seems to be ignoring everything else other than your opinion. Not to mention the one playing here is Flash. You're the one saying what Flash did was wrong. Also I'm listening to everyone else's opinion (Turbovolver, Caihead, Endy and others), the only one in disagreement is yours. .... What I meant was it's Flash defending if he did choose not to commit to bio. And I have seen several times in this forum alone when not everybody has the same opinion; when few disagree with the majority. Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 18:00 Caihead wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 17:57 alypse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 17:53 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 17:18 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 17:10 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 16:53 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 15:39 Scarecrow wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 14:09 alypse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 09:31 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 00:12 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 22:23 Scarecrow wrote:On May 22 2012 21:26 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:17 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 21:11 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:07 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 21:05 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:01 Caihead wrote:
[quote]
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning. He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest? How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So? Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"? Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation. Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will. Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat. I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth. From Jangbi's interview: "You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won." You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms. My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled? Your evidence: personal theorycrafting On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote:
If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make. I assumed you'd be one of those clueless theorycrafters blaming that loss on flash being stupid and not massing vultures off his 2 factories when he was vs'ing dragoon reaver. Even if he somehow holds the zealots he has a tank count of 1-2 vs a 3 base toss and a grand total of 2 factories (i.e. dead). I'm done with this thread anyway, there's clearly no convincing you as you seem to have only the most basic understanding of how the game works. I'm afraid the clueless theorycrafter here is you, since that's not the purpose of using vultures in that game. Just 2 or 3 vultures lay mines in front of his nat would most probably prevent the fatal zealot stream into his base, causing the GG. The thing he needs is some mines, he doesn't need to mass vultures. But let's just stop at that. I also want to end the argument here, since you keep ignoring every facts I present and this will lead to nowhere. Your answer to everything seems to be get really behind, get vultures, mine up the nat and hope your opponent is D- And yours seems to be ignoring everything else other than your opinion. Not to mention the one playing here is Flash. ... and your ignoring the opinions of two progamers, flash and jangbi. I don't even know what to say about this. You're just arguing for the sake of argue, not to get to the point.... I'm arguing because Jangbi was right, and that his opinion is proven by logical induction (his experience and logical thought process concluded that he already won when he saw the barracks because he understands PvT from the protoss perspective and knows the terran can't beat his build or transition out of it) as well as empirical evidence (he won). Flash's opinion also matters because he's consistently been the top 1-2 terran in the world as well as having top 1-3 TvP as well as having personal stake in winning the match. Flash's opinion isn't wrong just because he lost a game where he had nothing but bad luck (scouting jangbi last resulting in it being denied, going bio to counter mass dragoons and having jangbi go templar tech) and disadvantages (losing scvs with an econ build, having no time or resources to transition out of his build). I'm trying to invoke professional (and it is professional, these people are professional gamers at the top of the food chain) credibility to add to my argument. What is your point? I'm backing my opinion up with facts, statistics, build analysis, and showing why from the player's perspective these choices make sense. What you've done is insist on a build switch which is completely illogical. How about this Alypse. Can you try to find an instance where any player, any player at all, canceled his production / tech structures entirely to start another build at a much delayed timing? Because there are hundreds of instances where players have WON with a weaker or non optimal build that they kept going even after being scouted / countered because they can't transition out of it. Show me something in the contrary. Please, I am sure I can take everything you just said about logical induction and professional credibility to the side of my argument. I can just say that by Flash's experience and game sense and mechanics and the fact that he is the top T in the world and the consistent top 3 TvP player... so he would be completely fine should he chose the other way. Of course Jangbi could just say anything once he's won. All your facts, stats, analysis... make as much sense as mine do to me. The point is (I don't know how many times I have said this), there's nothing to prove that committing to bio is not the worst way for Flash. and I am suggesting that going for the other strategy would probably result in a higher chance of winning. Why? I explained it before, don't wanna waste my time write it down again. I don't think I can find a situation like this when a T intends to do a switch the moment he saw the DTs.. But I remember a game between Kal and a T, where T went for bio right from the beginning, got a big advantage but still in the end got mauled by storms and DTs. The only scenario where bio works vs P is when T can deal the fatal blow to P right in the first time, and that goal can only be done when P has no knowledge of the strategy. (Turn vs Stats for example.) Yea, except you are ignoring something. Factual evidence and game mechanics. This is ridiculous. Flash can't just make any build work, neither can any player, it has to be planned and calculated. It's a calculated decision to continue with the bio mech push. No terran progamer would chose to cancel his barracks unless he was hoping for the protoss to just drop out of the game because he knows that the protoss would either out expand him while he defends for a push that never comes since the protoss has vision of his side of the field via DT's, or the protoss would just outright kill him while there is an absence of units. You can't just use the defense that your opinion makes sense to you when there's already an established answer to the problem because Broodwar is a game with defined mechanics and numeric values. Flash's highest chance of winning was with the bio mech push before storm finishes, he couldn't pull it off. No it's not, Flash has the lowest chance of winning when commiting to the bio push. It just couldn't works when the opponent already had the knowledge of his intention and had several DTs on guard, plus you don't know is his storms are ready or not. I'm not even talking about the possibility that he will run out of scans even before reaching Jangbi's nat. Anyway it's suicidal for Flash to do so. About the potential all-in, I already discussed it before, and I won't say it again since it looks like you're in a loop. So you don't think progamers study furiously the timing windows for unit production / research? Storms take a definite amount of time to research and HT's take a definite amount of time to produce and save up enough energy to cast storm. It's even more suicidal to go for a mech switch. Show me one game where a terran does what you are suggesting. It's all known too well that they practice a lot, but as many have also said, they are not perfect and quite frequently they make mistakes or false judgments or have bad timings. You said it yourself several pages ago, and now you're contradicting yourself. That aside, against DTs and storms AND limited scans, bio is surely a suicide. It's still the only shot he has,trying to wait and turtle on 2 bases with mines is an even worse option because the protoss can just choose to macro and expand more instead of attacking when he sees that there are vultures instead of a bio attack. It's still the better choice. It's a bad decision on its own but Flash can't escape the position he was already so he needs to make do, same with trying to hold a 9 pool with a 12 hatch. You've already done the build, you can't transition out of it into a more optimal build. He's definitely not too deep within it and can turn his way back. Why not choose the better tactics when the one you're doing is suicidal, and the other tactics is viable? You just answered your own question. Flash knew exactly what he was up against and if he thought he could've transitioned to something better he would have. He still chose to go with his bio timing vs templar tech despite it being an uphill battle (maybe 5% or less win rate with their respective builds). Flash still chose biomech as the best tactic because your idiotic mech transition is completely non-viable in that situation. Just because you don't understand why it's not viable doesn't mean it is (multiple people have posted explaining the many ways in which toss destroys a mech transition in the context of that game). Like Caihead I challenge you to find ONE game in the history of bw where multiple production structures and tech are cancelled that late by a progamer to transition into something completely different. Now assuming you can't, your thinking either revolutionizes a 10 year old game or is fundamentally flawed. I'm going with the latter.
And what is it that you just said? Theorycrafting based on nothing at all? Like I said, as much as I can't find a game with such a situation, you have absolutely nothing to prove that the commitment Flash made is the best way possible and instead just ignorantly and mindlessly repeating about your "understanding of the matchup".
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This entire page is just KT fans posting.
Where my STX boys at? Where the hell is CSheep? mustaju has left us...
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Im sure this must have been discussed earlier but what exactly was mini (or was it grape) doing? I have never seen so much fail in a SC game before. There was absolutely no reason to go down at that moment. Now lets suppose that he looked elsewhere and units followed the enemy down the ramp (extremely unlikely seeing as he was controlling them 2 seconds ago), why did he not focus fire at all? I pretty much always give the benefit of the doubt to the player, but this time i cant help but think his threw this game.
btw, alypse is pretty ignorant. The only possible way of winning this game was for flash to scan away dts and set up a turret line to toss's nat and bunker the shit out of it. That was the ONLY way flash could have won. Doing some stupid mech switch might prolong the game for a little bit, but they are trying to win, not drag out a hopeless game. The more likely scenario would be just being overrun due to lack of units.
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On May 23 2012 22:42 alypse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 22:25 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 19:40 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 19:28 Caihead wrote:On May 23 2012 19:14 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 19:07 Caihead wrote:On May 23 2012 19:04 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 18:55 Caihead wrote:On May 23 2012 18:45 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 18:15 Caihead wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 18:08 alypse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 18:01 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 17:57 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 17:53 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 17:18 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 17:10 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 16:53 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 15:39 Scarecrow wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 14:09 alypse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 09:31 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 00:12 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 22:23 Scarecrow wrote:On May 22 2012 21:26 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:17 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 21:11 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:07 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 21:05 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:01 Caihead wrote:
[quote]
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning. He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest? How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So? Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"? Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation. Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will. Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat. I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth. From Jangbi's interview: "You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won." You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms. My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled? Your evidence: personal theorycrafting On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote:
If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make. I assumed you'd be one of those clueless theorycrafters blaming that loss on flash being stupid and not massing vultures off his 2 factories when he was vs'ing dragoon reaver. Even if he somehow holds the zealots he has a tank count of 1-2 vs a 3 base toss and a grand total of 2 factories (i.e. dead). I'm done with this thread anyway, there's clearly no convincing you as you seem to have only the most basic understanding of how the game works. I'm afraid the clueless theorycrafter here is you, since that's not the purpose of using vultures in that game. Just 2 or 3 vultures lay mines in front of his nat would most probably prevent the fatal zealot stream into his base, causing the GG. The thing he needs is some mines, he doesn't need to mass vultures. But let's just stop at that. I also want to end the argument here, since you keep ignoring every facts I present and this will lead to nowhere. Your answer to everything seems to be get really behind, get vultures, mine up the nat and hope your opponent is D- And yours seems to be ignoring everything else other than your opinion. Not to mention the one playing here is Flash. You're the one saying what Flash did was wrong. Also I'm listening to everyone else's opinion (Turbovolver, Caihead, Endy and others), the only one in disagreement is yours. .... What I meant was it's Flash defending if he did choose not to commit to bio. And I have seen several times in this forum alone when not everybody has the same opinion; when few disagree with the majority. Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 18:00 Caihead wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 17:57 alypse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 17:53 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 17:18 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 17:10 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 16:53 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 15:39 Scarecrow wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 14:09 alypse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 09:31 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 00:12 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 22:23 Scarecrow wrote:On May 22 2012 21:26 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:17 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 21:11 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:07 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 21:05 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:01 Caihead wrote:
[quote]
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning. He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest? How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So? Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"? Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation. Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will. Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat. I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth. From Jangbi's interview: "You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won." You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms. My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled? Your evidence: personal theorycrafting On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote:
If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make. I assumed you'd be one of those clueless theorycrafters blaming that loss on flash being stupid and not massing vultures off his 2 factories when he was vs'ing dragoon reaver. Even if he somehow holds the zealots he has a tank count of 1-2 vs a 3 base toss and a grand total of 2 factories (i.e. dead). I'm done with this thread anyway, there's clearly no convincing you as you seem to have only the most basic understanding of how the game works. I'm afraid the clueless theorycrafter here is you, since that's not the purpose of using vultures in that game. Just 2 or 3 vultures lay mines in front of his nat would most probably prevent the fatal zealot stream into his base, causing the GG. The thing he needs is some mines, he doesn't need to mass vultures. But let's just stop at that. I also want to end the argument here, since you keep ignoring every facts I present and this will lead to nowhere. Your answer to everything seems to be get really behind, get vultures, mine up the nat and hope your opponent is D- And yours seems to be ignoring everything else other than your opinion. Not to mention the one playing here is Flash. ... and your ignoring the opinions of two progamers, flash and jangbi. I don't even know what to say about this. You're just arguing for the sake of argue, not to get to the point.... I'm arguing because Jangbi was right, and that his opinion is proven by logical induction (his experience and logical thought process concluded that he already won when he saw the barracks because he understands PvT from the protoss perspective and knows the terran can't beat his build or transition out of it) as well as empirical evidence (he won). Flash's opinion also matters because he's consistently been the top 1-2 terran in the world as well as having top 1-3 TvP as well as having personal stake in winning the match. Flash's opinion isn't wrong just because he lost a game where he had nothing but bad luck (scouting jangbi last resulting in it being denied, going bio to counter mass dragoons and having jangbi go templar tech) and disadvantages (losing scvs with an econ build, having no time or resources to transition out of his build). I'm trying to invoke professional (and it is professional, these people are professional gamers at the top of the food chain) credibility to add to my argument. What is your point? I'm backing my opinion up with facts, statistics, build analysis, and showing why from the player's perspective these choices make sense. What you've done is insist on a build switch which is completely illogical. How about this Alypse. Can you try to find an instance where any player, any player at all, canceled his production / tech structures entirely to start another build at a much delayed timing? Because there are hundreds of instances where players have WON with a weaker or non optimal build that they kept going even after being scouted / countered because they can't transition out of it. Show me something in the contrary. Please, I am sure I can take everything you just said about logical induction and professional credibility to the side of my argument. I can just say that by Flash's experience and game sense and mechanics and the fact that he is the top T in the world and the consistent top 3 TvP player... so he would be completely fine should he chose the other way. Of course Jangbi could just say anything once he's won. All your facts, stats, analysis... make as much sense as mine do to me. The point is (I don't know how many times I have said this), there's nothing to prove that committing to bio is not the worst way for Flash. and I am suggesting that going for the other strategy would probably result in a higher chance of winning. Why? I explained it before, don't wanna waste my time write it down again. I don't think I can find a situation like this when a T intends to do a switch the moment he saw the DTs.. But I remember a game between Kal and a T, where T went for bio right from the beginning, got a big advantage but still in the end got mauled by storms and DTs. The only scenario where bio works vs P is when T can deal the fatal blow to P right in the first time, and that goal can only be done when P has no knowledge of the strategy. (Turn vs Stats for example.) Yea, except you are ignoring something. Factual evidence and game mechanics. This is ridiculous. Flash can't just make any build work, neither can any player, it has to be planned and calculated. It's a calculated decision to continue with the bio mech push. No terran progamer would chose to cancel his barracks unless he was hoping for the protoss to just drop out of the game because he knows that the protoss would either out expand him while he defends for a push that never comes since the protoss has vision of his side of the field via DT's, or the protoss would just outright kill him while there is an absence of units. You can't just use the defense that your opinion makes sense to you when there's already an established answer to the problem because Broodwar is a game with defined mechanics and numeric values. Flash's highest chance of winning was with the bio mech push before storm finishes, he couldn't pull it off. No it's not, Flash has the lowest chance of winning when commiting to the bio push. It just couldn't works when the opponent already had the knowledge of his intention and had several DTs on guard, plus you don't know is his storms are ready or not. I'm not even talking about the possibility that he will run out of scans even before reaching Jangbi's nat. Anyway it's suicidal for Flash to do so. About the potential all-in, I already discussed it before, and I won't say it again since it looks like you're in a loop. So you don't think progamers study furiously the timing windows for unit production / research? Storms take a definite amount of time to research and HT's take a definite amount of time to produce and save up enough energy to cast storm. It's even more suicidal to go for a mech switch. Show me one game where a terran does what you are suggesting. It's all known too well that they practice a lot, but as many have also said, they are not perfect and quite frequently they make mistakes or false judgments or have bad timings. You said it yourself several pages ago, and now you're contradicting yourself. That aside, against DTs and storms AND limited scans, bio is surely a suicide. It's still the only shot he has,trying to wait and turtle on 2 bases with mines is an even worse option because the protoss can just choose to macro and expand more instead of attacking when he sees that there are vultures instead of a bio attack. It's still the better choice. It's a bad decision on its own but Flash can't escape the position he was already so he needs to make do, same with trying to hold a 9 pool with a 12 hatch. You've already done the build, you can't transition out of it into a more optimal build. He's definitely not too deep within it and can turn his way back. Why not choose the better tactics when the one you're doing is suicidal, and the other tactics is viable? You just answered your own question. Flash knew exactly what he was up against and if he thought he could've transitioned to something better he would have. He still chose to go with his bio timing vs templar tech despite it being an uphill battle (maybe 5% or less win rate with their respective builds). Flash still chose biomech as the best tactic because your idiotic mech transition is completely non-viable in that situation. Just because you don't understand why it's not viable doesn't mean it is (multiple people have posted explaining the many ways in which toss destroys a mech transition in the context of that game). Like Caihead I challenge you to find ONE game in the history of bw where multiple production structures and tech are cancelled that late by a progamer to transition into something completely different. Now assuming you can't, your thinking either revolutionizes a 10 year old game or is fundamentally flawed. I'm going with the latter. And what is it that you just said? Theorycrafting based on nothing at all? Like I said, as much as I can't find a game with such a situation, you have absolutely nothing to prove that the commitment Flash made is the best way possible and instead just ignorantly and mindlessly repeating about your "understanding of the matchup".
I used build analysis, I stated building times for units and buildings, I stated flash's lack of gas mining at the time because of the bio mech build and how it wouldn't be possible to produce a mech army not to mention his lack of mech upgrades, I stated why flash can't use units to scout nor can he use scans to scout and why his scout was denied, I stated research times for key researches like mines / speed / storm, I stated what Flash was able to see at what time and why he would choose to continue the build. I made note of the fact that flash lost scvs with an economical build so jangbi and flash are pretty even on economy especially since flash cut scvs for his build. And I stated what possible transitions the protoss could have gone with at the time based on what flash knows, and how the game would play out if a transition like you said would happen, namely protoss expand at will, crush flash while he has an absence of units, ability to scout and deny aggression or macro instead of aggression if he sees mines with the dt's, deny flash's third indefinitely due to army size. You can see all of that if you just go back a few pages or hell, look in this conversation in spoilers.
And then you tell me it's all based on nothing.
*throws hands up in the air* w/e not worth my time
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On May 25 2012 03:03 Caihead wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 22:42 alypse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 22:25 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 19:40 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 19:28 Caihead wrote:On May 23 2012 19:14 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 19:07 Caihead wrote:On May 23 2012 19:04 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 18:55 Caihead wrote:On May 23 2012 18:45 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 18:15 Caihead wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 18:08 alypse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 18:01 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 17:57 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 17:53 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 17:18 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 17:10 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 16:53 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 15:39 Scarecrow wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 14:09 alypse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 09:31 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 00:12 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 22:23 Scarecrow wrote:On May 22 2012 21:26 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:17 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 21:11 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:07 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 21:05 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:01 Caihead wrote:
[quote]
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning. He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest? How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So? Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"? Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation. Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will. Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat. I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth. From Jangbi's interview: "You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won." You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms. My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled? Your evidence: personal theorycrafting On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote:
If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make. I assumed you'd be one of those clueless theorycrafters blaming that loss on flash being stupid and not massing vultures off his 2 factories when he was vs'ing dragoon reaver. Even if he somehow holds the zealots he has a tank count of 1-2 vs a 3 base toss and a grand total of 2 factories (i.e. dead). I'm done with this thread anyway, there's clearly no convincing you as you seem to have only the most basic understanding of how the game works. I'm afraid the clueless theorycrafter here is you, since that's not the purpose of using vultures in that game. Just 2 or 3 vultures lay mines in front of his nat would most probably prevent the fatal zealot stream into his base, causing the GG. The thing he needs is some mines, he doesn't need to mass vultures. But let's just stop at that. I also want to end the argument here, since you keep ignoring every facts I present and this will lead to nowhere. Your answer to everything seems to be get really behind, get vultures, mine up the nat and hope your opponent is D- And yours seems to be ignoring everything else other than your opinion. Not to mention the one playing here is Flash. You're the one saying what Flash did was wrong. Also I'm listening to everyone else's opinion (Turbovolver, Caihead, Endy and others), the only one in disagreement is yours. .... What I meant was it's Flash defending if he did choose not to commit to bio. And I have seen several times in this forum alone when not everybody has the same opinion; when few disagree with the majority. Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 18:00 Caihead wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 17:57 alypse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 17:53 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 17:18 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 17:10 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 16:53 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 15:39 Scarecrow wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 14:09 alypse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 09:31 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 00:12 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 22:23 Scarecrow wrote:On May 22 2012 21:26 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:17 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 21:11 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:07 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 21:05 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:01 Caihead wrote:
[quote]
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning. He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest? How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So? Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"? Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation. Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will. Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat. I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth. From Jangbi's interview: "You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won." You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms. My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled? Your evidence: personal theorycrafting On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote:
If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make. I assumed you'd be one of those clueless theorycrafters blaming that loss on flash being stupid and not massing vultures off his 2 factories when he was vs'ing dragoon reaver. Even if he somehow holds the zealots he has a tank count of 1-2 vs a 3 base toss and a grand total of 2 factories (i.e. dead). I'm done with this thread anyway, there's clearly no convincing you as you seem to have only the most basic understanding of how the game works. I'm afraid the clueless theorycrafter here is you, since that's not the purpose of using vultures in that game. Just 2 or 3 vultures lay mines in front of his nat would most probably prevent the fatal zealot stream into his base, causing the GG. The thing he needs is some mines, he doesn't need to mass vultures. But let's just stop at that. I also want to end the argument here, since you keep ignoring every facts I present and this will lead to nowhere. Your answer to everything seems to be get really behind, get vultures, mine up the nat and hope your opponent is D- And yours seems to be ignoring everything else other than your opinion. Not to mention the one playing here is Flash. ... and your ignoring the opinions of two progamers, flash and jangbi. I don't even know what to say about this. You're just arguing for the sake of argue, not to get to the point.... I'm arguing because Jangbi was right, and that his opinion is proven by logical induction (his experience and logical thought process concluded that he already won when he saw the barracks because he understands PvT from the protoss perspective and knows the terran can't beat his build or transition out of it) as well as empirical evidence (he won). Flash's opinion also matters because he's consistently been the top 1-2 terran in the world as well as having top 1-3 TvP as well as having personal stake in winning the match. Flash's opinion isn't wrong just because he lost a game where he had nothing but bad luck (scouting jangbi last resulting in it being denied, going bio to counter mass dragoons and having jangbi go templar tech) and disadvantages (losing scvs with an econ build, having no time or resources to transition out of his build). I'm trying to invoke professional (and it is professional, these people are professional gamers at the top of the food chain) credibility to add to my argument. What is your point? I'm backing my opinion up with facts, statistics, build analysis, and showing why from the player's perspective these choices make sense. What you've done is insist on a build switch which is completely illogical. How about this Alypse. Can you try to find an instance where any player, any player at all, canceled his production / tech structures entirely to start another build at a much delayed timing? Because there are hundreds of instances where players have WON with a weaker or non optimal build that they kept going even after being scouted / countered because they can't transition out of it. Show me something in the contrary. Please, I am sure I can take everything you just said about logical induction and professional credibility to the side of my argument. I can just say that by Flash's experience and game sense and mechanics and the fact that he is the top T in the world and the consistent top 3 TvP player... so he would be completely fine should he chose the other way. Of course Jangbi could just say anything once he's won. All your facts, stats, analysis... make as much sense as mine do to me. The point is (I don't know how many times I have said this), there's nothing to prove that committing to bio is not the worst way for Flash. and I am suggesting that going for the other strategy would probably result in a higher chance of winning. Why? I explained it before, don't wanna waste my time write it down again. I don't think I can find a situation like this when a T intends to do a switch the moment he saw the DTs.. But I remember a game between Kal and a T, where T went for bio right from the beginning, got a big advantage but still in the end got mauled by storms and DTs. The only scenario where bio works vs P is when T can deal the fatal blow to P right in the first time, and that goal can only be done when P has no knowledge of the strategy. (Turn vs Stats for example.) Yea, except you are ignoring something. Factual evidence and game mechanics. This is ridiculous. Flash can't just make any build work, neither can any player, it has to be planned and calculated. It's a calculated decision to continue with the bio mech push. No terran progamer would chose to cancel his barracks unless he was hoping for the protoss to just drop out of the game because he knows that the protoss would either out expand him while he defends for a push that never comes since the protoss has vision of his side of the field via DT's, or the protoss would just outright kill him while there is an absence of units. You can't just use the defense that your opinion makes sense to you when there's already an established answer to the problem because Broodwar is a game with defined mechanics and numeric values. Flash's highest chance of winning was with the bio mech push before storm finishes, he couldn't pull it off. No it's not, Flash has the lowest chance of winning when commiting to the bio push. It just couldn't works when the opponent already had the knowledge of his intention and had several DTs on guard, plus you don't know is his storms are ready or not. I'm not even talking about the possibility that he will run out of scans even before reaching Jangbi's nat. Anyway it's suicidal for Flash to do so. About the potential all-in, I already discussed it before, and I won't say it again since it looks like you're in a loop. So you don't think progamers study furiously the timing windows for unit production / research? Storms take a definite amount of time to research and HT's take a definite amount of time to produce and save up enough energy to cast storm. It's even more suicidal to go for a mech switch. Show me one game where a terran does what you are suggesting. It's all known too well that they practice a lot, but as many have also said, they are not perfect and quite frequently they make mistakes or false judgments or have bad timings. You said it yourself several pages ago, and now you're contradicting yourself. That aside, against DTs and storms AND limited scans, bio is surely a suicide. It's still the only shot he has,trying to wait and turtle on 2 bases with mines is an even worse option because the protoss can just choose to macro and expand more instead of attacking when he sees that there are vultures instead of a bio attack. It's still the better choice. It's a bad decision on its own but Flash can't escape the position he was already so he needs to make do, same with trying to hold a 9 pool with a 12 hatch. You've already done the build, you can't transition out of it into a more optimal build. He's definitely not too deep within it and can turn his way back. Why not choose the better tactics when the one you're doing is suicidal, and the other tactics is viable? You just answered your own question. Flash knew exactly what he was up against and if he thought he could've transitioned to something better he would have. He still chose to go with his bio timing vs templar tech despite it being an uphill battle (maybe 5% or less win rate with their respective builds). Flash still chose biomech as the best tactic because your idiotic mech transition is completely non-viable in that situation. Just because you don't understand why it's not viable doesn't mean it is (multiple people have posted explaining the many ways in which toss destroys a mech transition in the context of that game). Like Caihead I challenge you to find ONE game in the history of bw where multiple production structures and tech are cancelled that late by a progamer to transition into something completely different. Now assuming you can't, your thinking either revolutionizes a 10 year old game or is fundamentally flawed. I'm going with the latter. And what is it that you just said? Theorycrafting based on nothing at all? Like I said, as much as I can't find a game with such a situation, you have absolutely nothing to prove that the commitment Flash made is the best way possible and instead just ignorantly and mindlessly repeating about your "understanding of the matchup". I used build analysis, I stated building times for units and buildings, I stated flash's lack of gas mining at the time because of the bio mech build and how it wouldn't be possible to produce a mech army not to mention his lack of mech upgrades, I stated why flash can't use units to scout nor can he use scans to scout and why his scout was denied, I stated research times for key researches like mines / speed / storm, I stated what Flash was able to see at what time and why he would choose to continue the build. I made note of the fact that flash lost scvs with an economical build so jangbi and flash are pretty even on economy especially since flash cut scvs for his build. And I stated what possible transitions the protoss could have gone with at the time based on what flash knows, and how the game would play out if a transition like you said would happen, namely protoss expand at will, crush flash while he has an absence of units, ability to scout and deny aggression or macro instead of aggression if he sees mines with the dt's, deny flash's third indefinitely due to army size. You can see all of that if you just go back a few pages or hell, look in this conversation in spoilers. And then you tell me it's all based on nothing. *throws hands up in the air* w/e not worth my time
If it's not worth your time why bother replying in the first place? I've seen way too many times in this thread alone when you contradict yourself.
As I have said over 9000 times, as much as my suggested strategy is theorycrafting, you've got nothing more than that. All your analysis aims to one scenario where Flash would get demolished if he decided not to stick to bio. Mine is to get to the point that not going bio can result in a better situation for him. Yeah, I have read what you wrote many pages back, but you can also see my arguments back there too. I too have analyzed the situation and the build, the timings of units and buildings and pushes and attacks, the fact that T can still cancel the 2 unfinished raxes, that Jangbi opted for non-stop DTs right off the bat, that he was busing building up his expansion even before he used his DTs, that stim research still not done yet, that an all-in from P can be even less likely if Flash can stop P from getting intelligence, since with that build P would not get obs for a while. And most importantly I've said countless times that going bio versus DT-storms combo is the suicidal method for T, especially when P already knew it. And what you did was throwing all the above aside and like "Hell no, my way is the only way that's possible and acceptable."
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Arg, please spoiler individual matches next time!
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