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On May 22 2012 23:34 Release wrote:
Jangbi didn't play well. Flash played like shit. I don't know why Terrans still insist on 1rax CC in TvP. Take one look at sea and ...
You're an idiot.
Flash played great, Jangbi played great, and Jangbi had an advantage because of the builds, so he won.
A lesser P might fall to Flash's counterpush, Flash did well (splash-sniping a DT, making the correct decision given the situation) and made a decent bio push and was quick on all his scans. But Jangbi also did a SICK storm, used his DTs correctly to delay, and correctly went mass gates because he was on top of what Flash would do (basically had to do).
And let's not forget Jangbi's earlier harass with dancing goons attacking the bunker.
People are saying the game was decided by the builds, which is true only when the two players are of equal skill. To suggest it was "just" a BO win takes away from both Flash and Jangbi, who both played as well as they could given the builds they chose.
Go on, point out some things they did wrong other than "lol Flash is an idiot for insisting on the build that all T progamers seem to have decided is optimal in the matchup".
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It is good to see my boy JangBi playing aggressively once again.
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Well, Jangbi winning was nice. He did a lot of good things. Picking off scvs, thus forcing flash to pull more, keeping that push back with the threat of dts for a moment, perfect storm... :| but Flash? I've seen him do biomech builds like this before. It usually catches the toss's pants down because it's timing is faster than deep six. Of course, when you lose some scvs, have a finite number of scans while dts roam the field, oh, and by the way, your opponent went straight to templar tech, by the time you actually push, you're done. Pretty much played into Jangbi's hands. Risky build, not as sexy as deep six (or forGG's deep 7)
... It's just a goofy build, I've never liked it, even when he used it against Sangho (I think) years ago. It's a little faster than deep six, but it's so much weaker... A terran with the element of surprise (read: restricted scouting) and great control can beat both templar tech (see Classic vs Best, the first time he tried it [lost with deep six in another game]) AND reaver tech (see Kal vs ForGG). But his build? I'm sorry for the rant. I just love seeing the deep six, and seeing a cheap substitute for it will not be tolerated 
I was feeling bad for Action, he needs Flash to lose and has to beat Bogus but... + Show Spoiler [SPL] +then I saw his game against FBH... wtf was that?
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On May 23 2012 09:31 Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 00:12 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 22:23 Scarecrow wrote:On May 22 2012 21:26 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:17 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 21:11 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:07 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 21:05 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:01 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 20:59 alypse wrote:
[quote]
No, there WAS. Jangbi was already expanding before trying to sneak 2 DTs into Flash's base. You didn't watch the game careful enough. And if Flash guessed it wrong it's his fault of course.
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning. He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest? How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So? Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"? Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation. Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will. Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat. I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth. From Jangbi's interview: "You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won."
You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms.
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On May 23 2012 14:28 BlazeFury01 wrote:
Is Flash out?
no
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On May 23 2012 14:09 alypse wrote:
You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms.
Flash had 3 tanks, 1 factory, and no tech at that point, needing EBay immediately to stop dts from flooding in.
Jangbi had 6 goons, 2 gateways, and templar tech at that point.
Economy roughly even
If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
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Was Stork's highlight video recorded?
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On May 23 2012 14:09 alypse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 09:31 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 00:12 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 22:23 Scarecrow wrote:On May 22 2012 21:26 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:17 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 21:11 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:07 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 21:05 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:01 Caihead wrote:
[quote]
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning. He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest? How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So? Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"? Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation. Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will. Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat. I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth. From Jangbi's interview: "You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won." You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms.
My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled?
Your evidence: personal theorycrafting
On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote:
If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy
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really disappointed in the level of these games, every1 won off 1 push and there didn't look like much fluidity to them at all... I guess the sc2 transition is really taking its toll. I am surprised so many people recommended flash v jangbi, it was over right from the start, flash cut so many scvs resulting in not being able to transition into anything at all.
I would say that Flash didn't seem so prepared because it looks like he was not even building to counter dts which is a follow up to the goon push, albeit Flash didn't see Jangbi's opening... but very unflash like.
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On May 23 2012 15:39 Scarecrow wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 14:09 alypse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 09:31 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 00:12 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 22:23 Scarecrow wrote:On May 22 2012 21:26 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:17 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 21:11 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:07 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 21:05 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:01 Caihead wrote:
[quote]
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning. He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest? How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So? Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"? Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation. Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will. Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat. I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth. From Jangbi's interview: "You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won." You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms. My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled? Your evidence: personal theorycrafting On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote:
If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy
Based on your so-called "evidence", you have no more than what I have. And it's all theorycraft on a situation that you never know the outcome when it's not actually played out. And simply because there's more people agreeing on the same strategy doesn't mean it's always absolutely right. So you're saying bio vs DTs/storms are the best choice then? You still have zip to prove that. About your "evidence" of progamers' game sense, how many times did you see pros make mistakes? And while Flash is the best T in the world, his judgment (and sometimes stubbornness) have cost him quite a lot of games. Look at his games in the last grand finals. Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make.
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On May 23 2012 16:53 alypse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 15:39 Scarecrow wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 14:09 alypse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 09:31 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 00:12 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 22:23 Scarecrow wrote:On May 22 2012 21:26 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:17 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 21:11 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:07 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 21:05 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:01 Caihead wrote:
[quote]
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning. He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest? How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So? Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"? Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation. Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will. Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat. I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth. From Jangbi's interview: "You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won." You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms. My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled? Your evidence: personal theorycrafting On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote:
If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make.
I assumed you'd be one of those clueless theorycrafters blaming that loss on flash being stupid and not massing vultures off his 2 factories when he was vs'ing dragoon reaver. Even if he somehow holds the zealots he has a tank count of 1-2 vs a 3 base toss and a grand total of 2 factories (i.e. dead). I'm done with this thread anyway, there's clearly no convincing you as you seem to have only the most basic understanding of how the game works i.e. vults > zealots, wraiths > dropships, dt/storm > bio
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On May 23 2012 17:10 Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 16:53 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 15:39 Scarecrow wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 14:09 alypse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 09:31 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 00:12 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 22:23 Scarecrow wrote:On May 22 2012 21:26 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:17 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 21:11 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:07 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 21:05 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:01 Caihead wrote:
[quote]
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning. He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest? How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So? Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"? Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation. Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will. Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat. I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth. From Jangbi's interview: "You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won." You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms. My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled? Your evidence: personal theorycrafting On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote:
If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make. I assumed you'd be one of those clueless theorycrafters blaming that loss on flash being stupid and not massing vultures off his 2 factories when he was vs'ing dragoon reaver. Even if he somehow holds the zealots he has a tank count of 1-2 vs a 3 base toss and a grand total of 2 factories (i.e. dead). I'm done with this thread anyway, there's clearly no convincing you as you seem to have only the most basic understanding of how the game works.
I'm afraid the clueless theorycrafter here is you, since that's not the purpose of using vultures in that game. Just 2 or 3 vultures lay mines in front of his nat would most probably prevent the fatal zealot stream into his base, causing the GG. The thing he needs is some mines, he doesn't need to mass vultures. But let's just stop at that. I also want to end the argument here, since you keep ignoring every facts I present and this will lead to nowhere.
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On May 23 2012 17:10 Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 16:53 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 15:39 Scarecrow wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 14:09 alypse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 09:31 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 00:12 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 22:23 Scarecrow wrote:On May 22 2012 21:26 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:17 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 21:11 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:07 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 21:05 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:01 Caihead wrote:
[quote]
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning. He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest? How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So? Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"? Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation. Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will. Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat. I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth. From Jangbi's interview: "You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won." You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms. My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled? Your evidence: personal theorycrafting On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote:
If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make. I assumed you'd be one of those clueless theorycrafters blaming that loss on flash being stupid and not massing vultures off his 2 factories when he was vs'ing dragoon reaver. Even if he somehow holds the zealots he has a tank count of 1-2 vs a 3 base toss and a grand total of 2 factories (i.e. dead). I'm done with this thread anyway, there's clearly no convincing you as you seem to have only the most basic understanding of how the game works i.e. vults > zealots, wraiths > dropships, dt/storm > bio
I agree. Another way to put this would be that if Flash had cancelled his racks, he would have absolutely no units to pressure Jangbi, and Jangbi could have tech'ed to arbiters and taken 4 bases before Flash would have enough units to threaten him. And I'm not even talking about how late mech upgrades would have been.
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On May 23 2012 16:53 alypse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 15:39 Scarecrow wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 14:09 alypse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 09:31 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 00:12 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 22:23 Scarecrow wrote:On May 22 2012 21:26 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:17 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 21:11 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:07 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 21:05 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:01 Caihead wrote:
[quote]
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning. He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest? How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So? Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"? Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation. Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will. Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat. I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth. From Jangbi's interview: "You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won." You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms. My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled? Your evidence: personal theorycrafting On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote:
If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy Based on your so-called "evidence", you have no more than what I have. And it's all theorycraft on a situation that you never know the outcome when it's not actually played out. And simply because there's more people agreeing on the same strategy doesn't mean it's always absolutely right. So you're saying bio vs DTs/storms are the best choice then? You still have zip to prove that. About your "evidence" of progamers' game sense, how many times did you see pros make mistakes? And while Flash is the best T in the world, his judgment (and sometimes stubbornness) have cost him quite a lot of games. Look at his games in the last grand finals. Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make.
Christ, it's as simple as this. Flash was too late into his build to cancel out of it into a mech one. You complaining that he was using bio mech to fight jangbi's build is like complaining that Jaedong didn't cancel his hatchery after he went 12 hatch against a 9 pool. The point is that he has to do what he can with the existing build because the alternative is even worse an option. Everybody knows that bio against storms is auto death, which is why flash had to win before storm finished, and he almost got it against all odds, look at the replay, storm was finished literally 10 seconds before flash's marines got stormed. Using your logic every single game where there is unscoutable tech / army composition the loser is entirely to blame. Namely, 90% of all ZvZ's where overlords don't scout each other, all TvP's where the protoss won with reaver / shuttle or 2 base carrier, all games involving stealth units or rushes or timing attacks. The examples you gave criticizing Flash going dropship play vs Fantasy is just hilarious. Flash's only chance back into the game was the doom drop in fantasy's main using drop ships and he succeeded, he only lost because Fantasy's huge early-mid lead and banked resources allowed him to go mass wraiths.
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On May 23 2012 17:36 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 16:53 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 15:39 Scarecrow wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 14:09 alypse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 09:31 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 00:12 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 22:23 Scarecrow wrote:On May 22 2012 21:26 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:17 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 21:11 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:07 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 21:05 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:01 Caihead wrote:
[quote]
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning. He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest? How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So? Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"? Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation. Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will. Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat. I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth. From Jangbi's interview: "You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won." You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms. My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled? Your evidence: personal theorycrafting On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote:
If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy Based on your so-called "evidence", you have no more than what I have. And it's all theorycraft on a situation that you never know the outcome when it's not actually played out. And simply because there's more people agreeing on the same strategy doesn't mean it's always absolutely right. So you're saying bio vs DTs/storms are the best choice then? You still have zip to prove that. About your "evidence" of progamers' game sense, how many times did you see pros make mistakes? And while Flash is the best T in the world, his judgment (and sometimes stubbornness) have cost him quite a lot of games. Look at his games in the last grand finals. Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make. Christ, it's as simple as this. Flash was too late into his build to cancel out of it into a mech one. You complaining that he was using bio mech to fight jangbi's build is like complaining that Jaedong didn't cancel his hatchery after he went 12 hatch against a 9 pool. The point is that he has to do what he can with the existing build because the alternative is even worse an option. Everybody knows that bio against storms is auto death, which is why flash had to win before storm finished, and he almost got it against all odds, look at the replay, storm was finished literally 10 seconds before flash's marines got stormed. Using your logic every single game where there is unscoutable tech / army composition the loser is entirely to blame. Namely, 90% of all ZvZ's where overlords don't scout each other, all TvP's where the protoss won with reaver / shuttle or 2 base carrier, all games involving stealth units or rushes or timing attacks. The examples you gave criticizing Flash going dropship play vs Fantasy is just hilarious. Flash's only chance back into the game was the doom drop in fantasy's main using drop ships and he succeeded, he only lost because Fantasy's huge early-mid lead and banked resources allowed him to go mass wraiths.
Another assumption... About that game vs Fanta, Flash had all the choice and capabilities to go for a full air force. Saying that the only chance for Flash is to use dropships is really wrong. And he could go for the air-based played play from the beginning, but somehow, IIRC, after a few valks he began to mass dropships. I don't know if it's misjudgment or stubbornness, but it's really his own fault. How many games did you watch in which dropships prevail against wraith/valks? I watched a lot TvT and I saw none.
About this OSL game, I'm done with it. I don't want to repeat myself again and again.
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On May 23 2012 17:18 alypse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 17:10 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 16:53 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 15:39 Scarecrow wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 14:09 alypse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 09:31 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 00:12 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 22:23 Scarecrow wrote:On May 22 2012 21:26 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:17 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 21:11 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:07 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 21:05 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:01 Caihead wrote:
[quote]
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning. He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest? How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So? Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"? Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation. Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will. Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat. I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth. From Jangbi's interview: "You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won." You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms. My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled? Your evidence: personal theorycrafting On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote:
If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make. I assumed you'd be one of those clueless theorycrafters blaming that loss on flash being stupid and not massing vultures off his 2 factories when he was vs'ing dragoon reaver. Even if he somehow holds the zealots he has a tank count of 1-2 vs a 3 base toss and a grand total of 2 factories (i.e. dead). I'm done with this thread anyway, there's clearly no convincing you as you seem to have only the most basic understanding of how the game works. I'm afraid the clueless theorycrafter here is you, since that's not the purpose of using vultures in that game. Just 2 or 3 vultures lay mines in front of his nat would most probably prevent the fatal zealot stream into his base, causing the GG. The thing he needs is some mines, he doesn't need to mass vultures. But let's just stop at that. I also want to end the argument here, since you keep ignoring every facts I present and this will lead to nowhere.
Your answer to everything seems to be get really behind, get vultures, mine up the nat and hope your opponent is D-
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On May 23 2012 17:53 Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 17:18 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 17:10 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 16:53 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 15:39 Scarecrow wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 14:09 alypse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 09:31 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 00:12 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 22:23 Scarecrow wrote:On May 22 2012 21:26 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:17 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 21:11 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:07 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 21:05 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:01 Caihead wrote:
[quote]
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning. He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest? How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So? Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"? Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation. Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will. Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat. I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth. From Jangbi's interview: "You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won." You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms. My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled? Your evidence: personal theorycrafting On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote:
If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make. I assumed you'd be one of those clueless theorycrafters blaming that loss on flash being stupid and not massing vultures off his 2 factories when he was vs'ing dragoon reaver. Even if he somehow holds the zealots he has a tank count of 1-2 vs a 3 base toss and a grand total of 2 factories (i.e. dead). I'm done with this thread anyway, there's clearly no convincing you as you seem to have only the most basic understanding of how the game works. I'm afraid the clueless theorycrafter here is you, since that's not the purpose of using vultures in that game. Just 2 or 3 vultures lay mines in front of his nat would most probably prevent the fatal zealot stream into his base, causing the GG. The thing he needs is some mines, he doesn't need to mass vultures. But let's just stop at that. I also want to end the argument here, since you keep ignoring every facts I present and this will lead to nowhere. Your answer to everything seems to be get really behind, get vultures, mine up the nat and hope your opponent is D-
And yours seems to be ignoring everything else other than your opinion. Not to mention the one playing here is Flash.
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On May 23 2012 17:57 alypse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 17:53 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 17:18 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 17:10 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 16:53 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 15:39 Scarecrow wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 14:09 alypse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 09:31 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 00:12 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 22:23 Scarecrow wrote:On May 22 2012 21:26 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:17 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 21:11 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:07 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 21:05 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:01 Caihead wrote:
[quote]
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning. He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest? How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So? Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"? Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation. Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will. Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat. I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth. From Jangbi's interview: "You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won." You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms. My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled? Your evidence: personal theorycrafting On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote:
If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make. I assumed you'd be one of those clueless theorycrafters blaming that loss on flash being stupid and not massing vultures off his 2 factories when he was vs'ing dragoon reaver. Even if he somehow holds the zealots he has a tank count of 1-2 vs a 3 base toss and a grand total of 2 factories (i.e. dead). I'm done with this thread anyway, there's clearly no convincing you as you seem to have only the most basic understanding of how the game works. I'm afraid the clueless theorycrafter here is you, since that's not the purpose of using vultures in that game. Just 2 or 3 vultures lay mines in front of his nat would most probably prevent the fatal zealot stream into his base, causing the GG. The thing he needs is some mines, he doesn't need to mass vultures. But let's just stop at that. I also want to end the argument here, since you keep ignoring every facts I present and this will lead to nowhere. Your answer to everything seems to be get really behind, get vultures, mine up the nat and hope your opponent is D- And yours seems to be ignoring everything else other than your opinion. Not to mention the one playing here is Flash.
... and your ignoring the opinions of two progamers, flash and jangbi.
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On May 23 2012 17:57 alypse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 17:53 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 17:18 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 17:10 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 16:53 alypse wrote:On May 23 2012 15:39 Scarecrow wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 14:09 alypse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 09:31 Scarecrow wrote:On May 23 2012 00:12 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 22:23 Scarecrow wrote:On May 22 2012 21:26 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:17 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 21:11 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:07 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 21:05 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:01 Caihead wrote:
[quote]
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning. He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest? How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So? Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"? Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation. Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will. Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat. I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth. From Jangbi's interview: "You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won." You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms. My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled? Your evidence: personal theorycrafting On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote:
If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make. I assumed you'd be one of those clueless theorycrafters blaming that loss on flash being stupid and not massing vultures off his 2 factories when he was vs'ing dragoon reaver. Even if he somehow holds the zealots he has a tank count of 1-2 vs a 3 base toss and a grand total of 2 factories (i.e. dead). I'm done with this thread anyway, there's clearly no convincing you as you seem to have only the most basic understanding of how the game works. I'm afraid the clueless theorycrafter here is you, since that's not the purpose of using vultures in that game. Just 2 or 3 vultures lay mines in front of his nat would most probably prevent the fatal zealot stream into his base, causing the GG. The thing he needs is some mines, he doesn't need to mass vultures. But let's just stop at that. I also want to end the argument here, since you keep ignoring every facts I present and this will lead to nowhere. Your answer to everything seems to be get really behind, get vultures, mine up the nat and hope your opponent is D- And yours seems to be ignoring everything else other than your opinion. Not to mention the one playing here is Flash.
You're the one saying what Flash did was wrong. Also I'm listening to everyone else's opinion (Turbovolver, Caihead, Endy and others), the only one in disagreement is yours.
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