I don't think 2 gates with an expansion on the way would result in a fatal all-in consist of goons and zeals. By the time Jangbi's got a decent amount of units, Flash would have had enough to hold off. We all know how good his turtling is.
Flash already knows this: no natural expansion from jangbi if it were a 1 gate or 2 gate expand, 6 goons at that time of factory's machine shop just finishing up, dt's. This means a natural expansion was NOT on the way yet for Jangbi, and there were definitely some kind of gateway unit variation all in happening.
No, there WAS. Jangbi was already expanding before trying to sneak 2 DTs into Flash's base. You didn't watch the game careful enough. And if Flash guessed it wrong it's his fault of course.
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god
Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning.
He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest?
How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So?
Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"?
Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation.
Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will.
I guess you two simply agree that Flash was already lost, no matter what he did.
Flash already knows this: no natural expansion from jangbi if it were a 1 gate or 2 gate expand, 6 goons at that time of factory's machine shop just finishing up, dt's. This means a natural expansion was NOT on the way yet for Jangbi, and there were definitely some kind of gateway unit variation all in happening.
No, there WAS. Jangbi was already expanding before trying to sneak 2 DTs into Flash's base. You didn't watch the game careful enough. And if Flash guessed it wrong it's his fault of course.
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god
Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning.
He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest?
How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So?
Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"?
Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation.
Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will.
Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. 1 All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base.2 And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies.3 Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat.
Almost everything you're saying is wrong. 1. Flash can't stop Jangbi from getting intelligence because it had already happened, and regardless of rather jangbi went 2 gate robo -> obs or 2 gate dt he would have seen the barracks at around the same time. 2. Flash was behind from jangbi killing so many of his scvs. Halting production entirely and making factory / building new mech units is an entire 80 seconds for factory and 30 seconds before first vultures pop and at least 80+100 before mines / speed finish. Are you seriously saying that having minimal to no army production (he only had 1 factory) for 3 whole minutes wouldn't create an army disparity? A dragoon takes 50 seconds, a zealot takes 40 seconds, thats a whole 3 - 5 rounds of units, even if jangbi didn't make more gateways and stuck to 2 (which he didn't, he added to 4) thats a whole 20 pop which at that point in the game is a big deal. And there was no way of Flash knowing rather Jangbi is making DT's or Dragoon / zealots. He can't scout with units because jangbi is already controlling the outside of his base with DT's and he can't scan for this exact reason. 3. Flash HAS to attacks with the bio-mech because defending with a biomech when enemy has templar tech is just stupid on every level. Remember that Jangbi has vision of flash's army moving out if it does. If they both swap over to macro mode jangbi has a huge tech advantage and flash is likely to lose any ways due to his econ build being punished, and has almost no way to establish a third because you can't defend with bio mech against storm. You are the stubborn one in suggesting that Flash has to swap over his tech by canceling buildings dude, if you had this criticism against other people then almost every progamer is guilty of not canceling buildings when they see they aren't necessary, EXCEPT FLASH, flash is one of the only progamers that cancel tech / production / defense buildings when he deems it unnecessary from scouting. And again unless you think you know better than both Flash and Jangbi combined who have 14 gold / silvers combined, 5 of which are OSL medals (Jangbi said in interview that when he scouted the barracks he knew it was over), try to look at it from the player's point of view instead of the observer's point of view.
Really nice execution by Jangbi. Also in the Stork versus Horang2 match I felt weird when I saw the purple colored protoss. I realized protoss players rarely get purple.
Offtopic, but under results banner, everything is written in bold, in other words, everything except winners are not italic. So I can't distinguish who's the winner in the match-ups. I use Firefox but when I try Internet Explorer, it is as opposed to be. What should I do in the Firefox settings? Thanks in advance.
Flash played okay that game. Flash committed to a bio-mech push that would've killed Jangbi because Jangbi's nat hasn't kicked in yet (You can see JB making a lot more gates than usual). What killed Flash was Jangbi's DTs. Jangbi produced a lot of DTs to delay the push until storm is available. When he got storm, well you know the rest.
when i said jangbi didn't play well, i meant it literally. I never said he played badly. Just that 10/15 > 1rax CC. He did what was required of him (killing the SCVs). Nothing special. Cast storm on MnM. Ok, but it only worked out so well because Flash didn't move. Violet played better against Hiya, even though he lost.
Flash already knows this: no natural expansion from jangbi if it were a 1 gate or 2 gate expand, 6 goons at that time of factory's machine shop just finishing up, dt's. This means a natural expansion was NOT on the way yet for Jangbi, and there were definitely some kind of gateway unit variation all in happening.
No, there WAS. Jangbi was already expanding before trying to sneak 2 DTs into Flash's base. You didn't watch the game careful enough. And if Flash guessed it wrong it's his fault of course.
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god
Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning.
He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest?
How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So?
Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"?
Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation.
Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will.
Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat.
I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth.
From Jangbi's interview:
"You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won."
On May 23 2012 09:18 Release wrote: when i said jangbi didn't play well, i meant it literally. I never said he played badly. Just that 10/15 > 1rax CC. He did what was required of him (killing the SCVs). Nothing special. Cast storm on MnM. Ok, but it only worked out so well because Flash didn't move. Violet played better against Hiya, even though he lost.
The old Flash would have dodged those Storm by stimming the Marines forward, to snipe the HTs while tanking Zealots with Tanks in the back firing at the Dragoons. From the FPVODs, I can already tell that Flash's reaction time have gotten much slower. How can I tell? Well this is the first time, I was able to follow his train of thoughts completely and that has never occurred before.
EPT
JangBi 2-0
Flash 1-1
Action 0-1
