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On May 22 2012 21:11 alypse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 21:07 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 21:05 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:01 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 20:59 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 20:55 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 20:52 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 20:45 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 20:44 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 20:38 Scarecrow wrote:
[quote]
... you really don't understand TvP at all do you? Flash already had 3 rax up, a medic and stim on the way. There is no way he's transitioning back into mech. Watch the game again before spitting out nonsense. He only had 1 rax up, the other 2 were still being build. And it's not like the researches are done at that moment. If he's really the old Flash, he could mech up just fine. Only his stubbornness could stop him from doing so. he also had no factories up, so what your saying is he should defend against a potential all in attack with zealots / dragoons with just 1 factory tank production until he made factories? not to mention the lack of gas mining due to adjustment in his build. And it is being the "old flash" that makes him lose games some times, see canceling turrets against dear. I don't think 2 gates with an expansion on the way would result in a fatal all-in consist of goons and zeals. By the time Jangbi's got a decent amount of units, Flash would have had enough to hold off. We all know how good his turtling is. Flash already knows this: no natural expansion from jangbi if it were a 1 gate or 2 gate expand, 6 goons at that time of factory's machine shop just finishing up, dt's. This means a natural expansion was NOT on the way yet for Jangbi, and there were definitely some kind of gateway unit variation all in happening. No, there WAS. Jangbi was already expanding before trying to sneak 2 DTs into Flash's base. You didn't watch the game careful enough. And if Flash guessed it wrong it's his fault of course. From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning. He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest? How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So?
Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"? The logical move was to pressure Jangbi with what ever unit combination you had and commit to the attack, because either you are able to fight off Jangbi's gateway aggression and/or kill his potential natural, or you lose from a break or a macro game where the opponent has higher tech advantage against your composition.
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To put Stork's 100 OSL victories (including qualifiers - which makes the numbers slightly misleading) into context:
Boxer: 83+25=108 wins
Stork: 77 OSL proper wins + 22 qualifier wins + 1 today = 100 wins
July: 74+26=100 wins
Yellow: 77+22=99 wins
Nada: 65+24=89 wins
Flash: 74+13=87 wins
Reach: 56+24=80 wins
Jaedong: 56+13=69 wins
iloveoov: 49+15=64 wins
Fantasy: 61+0=61 wins
Bisu: 48+9=57 wins
(source: TLPD)
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Time to play bio vs protoss on iccup.....
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On May 22 2012 21:11 alypse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 21:07 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 21:05 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:01 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 20:59 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 20:55 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 20:52 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 20:45 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 20:44 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 20:38 Scarecrow wrote:
[quote]
... you really don't understand TvP at all do you? Flash already had 3 rax up, a medic and stim on the way. There is no way he's transitioning back into mech. Watch the game again before spitting out nonsense. He only had 1 rax up, the other 2 were still being build. And it's not like the researches are done at that moment. If he's really the old Flash, he could mech up just fine. Only his stubbornness could stop him from doing so. he also had no factories up, so what your saying is he should defend against a potential all in attack with zealots / dragoons with just 1 factory tank production until he made factories? not to mention the lack of gas mining due to adjustment in his build. And it is being the "old flash" that makes him lose games some times, see canceling turrets against dear. I don't think 2 gates with an expansion on the way would result in a fatal all-in consist of goons and zeals. By the time Jangbi's got a decent amount of units, Flash would have had enough to hold off. We all know how good his turtling is. Flash already knows this: no natural expansion from jangbi if it were a 1 gate or 2 gate expand, 6 goons at that time of factory's machine shop just finishing up, dt's. This means a natural expansion was NOT on the way yet for Jangbi, and there were definitely some kind of gateway unit variation all in happening. No, there WAS. Jangbi was already expanding before trying to sneak 2 DTs into Flash's base. You didn't watch the game careful enough. And if Flash guessed it wrong it's his fault of course. From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning. He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest? How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So?
FWIW, Jangbi in his post-game interview said he knew he won when his DT scouted the bio-mech. So really Flash was dead at that point and any transition, or lack thereof, would not have made a difference.
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On May 22 2012 21:17 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 21:11 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:07 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 21:05 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:01 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 20:59 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 20:55 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 20:52 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 20:45 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 20:44 alypse wrote:
[quote]
Watch the game again before spitting out nonsense. He only had 1 rax up, the other 2 were still being build. And it's not like the researches are done at that moment. If he's really the old Flash, he could mech up just fine. Only his stubbornness could stop him from doing so. he also had no factories up, so what your saying is he should defend against a potential all in attack with zealots / dragoons with just 1 factory tank production until he made factories? not to mention the lack of gas mining due to adjustment in his build. And it is being the "old flash" that makes him lose games some times, see canceling turrets against dear. I don't think 2 gates with an expansion on the way would result in a fatal all-in consist of goons and zeals. By the time Jangbi's got a decent amount of units, Flash would have had enough to hold off. We all know how good his turtling is. Flash already knows this: no natural expansion from jangbi if it were a 1 gate or 2 gate expand, 6 goons at that time of factory's machine shop just finishing up, dt's. This means a natural expansion was NOT on the way yet for Jangbi, and there were definitely some kind of gateway unit variation all in happening. No, there WAS. Jangbi was already expanding before trying to sneak 2 DTs into Flash's base. You didn't watch the game careful enough. And if Flash guessed it wrong it's his fault of course. From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning. He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest? How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So? Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"?
Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation.
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On May 22 2012 21:19 538 wrote:
To put Stork's 100 OSL victories (including qualifiers - which makes the numbers slightly misleading) into context:
Boxer: 83+25=108 wins
Stork: 77 OSL proper wins + 22 qualifier wins + 1 today = 100 wins
July: 74+26=100 wins
Yellow: 77+22=99 wins
Nada: 65+24=89 wins
Flash: 74+13=87 wins
Reach: 56+24=80 wins
Jaedong: 56+13=69 wins
iloveoov: 49+15=64 wins
Fantasy: 61+0=61 wins
Bisu: 48+9=57 wins
(source: TLPD)
Thanks a lot for that !
Stork can be one game close to win the OSL, but still top BoxeR ! (1 win Ro16, 3 wins Ro8, 3 wins Ro4, 2 wins Finals, total 109).
In that case they should really make him a silver mouse.
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Oh no, Flash 
Well, I'm sure he can still beat the rest of the group easily.
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Korea (South)11603 Posts
On May 22 2012 21:26 alypse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 21:17 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 21:11 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:07 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 21:05 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 21:01 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 20:59 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 20:55 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 20:52 alypse wrote:On May 22 2012 20:45 Caihead wrote:
[quote]
he also had no factories up, so what your saying is he should defend against a potential all in attack with zealots / dragoons with just 1 factory tank production until he made factories? not to mention the lack of gas mining due to adjustment in his build. And it is being the "old flash" that makes him lose games some times, see canceling turrets against dear. I don't think 2 gates with an expansion on the way would result in a fatal all-in consist of goons and zeals. By the time Jangbi's got a decent amount of units, Flash would have had enough to hold off. We all know how good his turtling is. Flash already knows this: no natural expansion from jangbi if it were a 1 gate or 2 gate expand, 6 goons at that time of factory's machine shop just finishing up, dt's. This means a natural expansion was NOT on the way yet for Jangbi, and there were definitely some kind of gateway unit variation all in happening. No, there WAS. Jangbi was already expanding before trying to sneak 2 DTs into Flash's base. You didn't watch the game careful enough. And if Flash guessed it wrong it's his fault of course. From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning. He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest? How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So? Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"? Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation.
Flash made the mistake of trying to go bio. But once you make bio, you have to continue with it until you can reasonably transition. After he scouted DT there's 0 way he could transition into mech until he had found a way to do it without falling incredibly behind.
The situation is not that he shouldn't have gone bio, but once he made that choice, he has to stick with it.
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On May 22 2012 21:30 endy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 21:19 538 wrote:
To put Stork's 100 OSL victories (including qualifiers - which makes the numbers slightly misleading) into context:
Boxer: 83+25=108 wins
Stork: 77 OSL proper wins + 22 qualifier wins + 1 today = 100 wins
July: 74+26=100 wins
Yellow: 77+22=99 wins
Nada: 65+24=89 wins
Flash: 74+13=87 wins
Reach: 56+24=80 wins
Jaedong: 56+13=69 wins
iloveoov: 49+15=64 wins
Fantasy: 61+0=61 wins
Bisu: 48+9=57 wins
(source: TLPD) Thanks a lot for that ! Stork can be one game close to win the OSL, but still top BoxeR ! (1 win Ro16, 3 wins Ro8, 3 wins Ro4, 2 wins Finals, total 109). In that case they should really make him a silver mouse.
Damn you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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hmm flash u better win this osl
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bad game, 3 mirror and one flash loss...
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On May 22 2012 21:19 538 wrote:
To put Stork's 100 OSL victories (including qualifiers - which makes the numbers slightly misleading) into context:
Boxer: 83+25=108 wins
Stork: 77 OSL proper wins + 22 qualifier wins + 1 today = 100 wins
July: 74+26=100 wins
Yellow: 77+22=99 wins
Nada: 65+24=89 wins
Flash: 74+13=87 wins
Reach: 56+24=80 wins
Jaedong: 56+13=69 wins
iloveoov: 49+15=64 wins
Fantasy: 61+0=61 wins
Bisu: 48+9=57 wins
(source: TLPD)
I don't know how they calculate it but July has 98 wins total, as commentators said after Stork's win.
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I wanna see either Flash vs. Stork or JB vs. Stork finals.
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I can feel a protoss v protoss final coming soon ....
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Stork with his 100th! Yay! =)
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On May 22 2012 21:57 Wala.Revolution wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 21:19 538 wrote:
To put Stork's 100 OSL victories (including qualifiers - which makes the numbers slightly misleading) into context:
Boxer: 83+25=108 wins
Stork: 77 OSL proper wins + 22 qualifier wins + 1 today = 100 wins
July: 74+26=100 wins
Yellow: 77+22=99 wins
Nada: 65+24=89 wins
Flash: 74+13=87 wins
Reach: 56+24=80 wins
Jaedong: 56+13=69 wins
iloveoov: 49+15=64 wins
Fantasy: 61+0=61 wins
Bisu: 48+9=57 wins
(source: TLPD) I don't know how they calculate it but July has 98 wins total, as commentators said after Stork's win.
Well, the only thing I find in TLPD which can seemingly make up for these +2 wins is an OGN challenge seed selection mini-tourney in 2003, where he beat Yellow twice - this event seems unique enough that they wouldn't count it as OSL proper, so this is my guess.
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United States10328 Posts
On May 22 2012 21:19 538 wrote:
To put Stork's 100 OSL victories (including qualifiers - which makes the numbers slightly misleading) into context:
Boxer: 83+25=108 wins
Stork: 77 OSL proper wins + 22 qualifier wins + 1 today = 100 wins
July: 74+26=100 wins
Yellow: 77+22=99 wins
Nada: 65+24=89 wins
Flash: 74+13=87 wins
Reach: 56+24=80 wins
Jaedong: 56+13=69 wins
iloveoov: 49+15=64 wins
Fantasy: 61+0=61 wins
Bisu: 48+9=57 wins
(source: TLPD)
Interesting, TLPD doesn't have Fantasy's Incruit prelim results (2-0 YoungA[KaL], 2-1 Saint, 2-0 Firebathero). [How could he have made the OSL without passing through prelims  ]
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On May 22 2012 21:19 Sawamura wrote:
Time to play bio vs protoss on iccup.....
I hope you get DT'd. lol
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I think Yellow has hand printing as well?
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EPT
