Stork really needs to beat Horang2, Horang2 can make it out of his group with out winning over Stork, but if Stork loses it's a death sentence. Come on stork!
On May 22 2012 16:58 BLinD-RawR wrote: shh, no PL talk only OSL hype.
KT losing because of sc too .... I never knew it would have end like this T_T .
meh, win some lose some.
KT will be fine, Stats and Flash's mechanics were fine both days tbh, even though they are combined 1-3, Stats played a great game vs Horang2 and his SC2 mechanics are fine, Kal just played better and was better prepared. Flash's mechanics while no where near his prime were still fine. imo in terms of proleague honestly i just rather the players transition well and be successful than simply win matches, results might seem important but we should support the players first
On May 22 2012 17:47 Caihead wrote: Stork really needs to beat Horang2, Horang2 can make it out of his group with out winning over Stork, but if Stork loses it's a death sentence. Come on stork!
How so? Didn't they both lose the first game? The chance for both of them to advance comes from a massive tie break I think. So the one who loses needs to pray for a tie break situation, no matter which one.
Or am I missing something? Why does horang2 stand a better chance if he losses than what stork would?
On May 22 2012 17:47 Caihead wrote: Stork really needs to beat Horang2, Horang2 can make it out of his group with out winning over Stork, but if Stork loses it's a death sentence. Come on stork!
How so? Didn't they both lose the first game? The chance for both of them to advance comes from a massive tie break I think. So the one who loses needs to pray for a tie break situation, no matter which one.
Or am I missing something? Why does horang2 stand a better chance if he losses than what stork would?
Horang2's played Zero where as Stork's played Soo for one. It's arguable that Zero is better at ZvP. If Stork loses, then the standings are: Zero 1-0 Soo 1-0 Horang2 1-1 Stork 0-2
Games left: Zero vs Soo Stork vs Zero Horang2 vs Soo
What needs to happen in terms of a tie breaker is that either Zero or Soo has to go 3-0 and every one else 1-2. In this case it would also have to mean that Soo is the one going 3-0 (since horang2 has to lose to him) and thus win against Horang2 as well as Zero (zero having better zvz stats than Soo). All the statistics just pile against Stork. Even if say Soo won against Zero and Stork won against Zero.
Zero 1-2 Soo 2-0 Horang2 1-1 Stork 1-2 Soo could literally just throw his game against Horang2 to deny Stork / Zero a chance to advance in terms of team planning so SKT players (him and fantasy) can affect the player pool of the Ro8. When the results of your standing depend on other people it's just not a favorable situation.
I like both Horang2 and Stork, but I'm rooting for the Dinotoss, I have a feeling he will suck at SC2, so that may be our last chance to see him at the place he deserves.
On May 22 2012 19:24 endy wrote: I like both Horang2 and Stork, but I'm rooting for the Dinotoss, I have a feeling he will suck at SC2, so that may be our last chance to see him at the place he deserves.
You mean you like Horang2 and Jangbi?
Hopefully we will see great BW matches, since players are practicing for two games the amount of cheeses and "Low quality" games rises.
On May 22 2012 19:24 endy wrote: I like both Horang2 and Stork, but I'm rooting for the Dinotoss, I have a feeling he will suck at SC2, so that may be our last chance to see him at the place he deserves.
You mean you like Horang2 and Jangbi?
Hopefully we will see great BW matches, since players are practicing for two games the amount of cheeses and "Low quality" games rises.
Well I like Jangbi too, but I really want to see Stork on top a last time, because I have the feeling he won't be good at SC2 Storku fighting
On May 22 2012 17:47 Caihead wrote: Stork really needs to beat Horang2, Horang2 can make it out of his group with out winning over Stork, but if Stork loses it's a death sentence. Come on stork!
How so? Didn't they both lose the first game? The chance for both of them to advance comes from a massive tie break I think. So the one who loses needs to pray for a tie break situation, no matter which one.
Or am I missing something? Why does horang2 stand a better chance if he losses than what stork would?
Horang2's played Zero where as Stork's played Soo for one. It's arguable that Zero is better at ZvP. If Stork loses, then the standings are: Zero 1-0 Soo 1-0 Horang2 1-1 Stork 0-2
Games left: Zero vs Soo Stork vs Zero Horang2 vs Soo
What needs to happen in terms of a tie breaker is that either Zero or Soo has to go 3-0 and every one else 1-2. In this case it would also have to mean that Soo is the one going 3-0 (since horang2 has to lose to him) and thus win against Horang2 as well as Zero (zero having better zvz stats than Soo). All the statistics just pile against Stork. Even if say Soo won against Zero and Stork won against Zero.
Zero 1-2 Soo 2-0 Horang2 1-1 Stork 1-2 Soo could literally just throw his game against Horang2 to deny Stork / Zero a chance to advance in terms of team planning so SKT players (him and fantasy) can affect the player pool of the Ro8. When the results of your standing depend on other people it's just not a favorable situation.
Ok I see you're going for more than just math, I figured that would be the case and that you were factoring the players skill in the MUs left, but asked nonetheless.
On May 22 2012 17:47 Caihead wrote: Stork really needs to beat Horang2, Horang2 can make it out of his group with out winning over Stork, but if Stork loses it's a death sentence. Come on stork!
How so? Didn't they both lose the first game? The chance for both of them to advance comes from a massive tie break I think. So the one who loses needs to pray for a tie break situation, no matter which one.
Or am I missing something? Why does horang2 stand a better chance if he losses than what stork would?
Horang2's played Zero where as Stork's played Soo for one. It's arguable that Zero is better at ZvP. If Stork loses, then the standings are: Zero 1-0 Soo 1-0 Horang2 1-1 Stork 0-2
Games left: Zero vs Soo Stork vs Zero Horang2 vs Soo
What needs to happen in terms of a tie breaker is that either Zero or Soo has to go 3-0 and every one else 1-2. In this case it would also have to mean that Soo is the one going 3-0 (since horang2 has to lose to him) and thus win against Horang2 as well as Zero (zero having better zvz stats than Soo). All the statistics just pile against Stork. Even if say Soo won against Zero and Stork won against Zero.
Zero 1-2 Soo 2-0 Horang2 1-1 Stork 1-2 Soo could literally just throw his game against Horang2 to deny Stork / Zero a chance to advance in terms of team planning so SKT players (him and fantasy) can affect the player pool of the Ro8. When the results of your standing depend on other people it's just not a favorable situation.
Ok I see you're going for more than just math, I figured that would be the case and that you were factoring the players skill in the MUs left, but asked nonetheless.
Thanks for the answer but still goooo Horang2 :p
didn't mention player skill etc because Zero vs Soo is a mirror, and both Stork vs Zero / Horang2 vs Soo are being played on Gladiator which is a 24-25 map in terms of pvz.
On May 22 2012 19:39 zazone wrote: it seems this is truly the last BW OSL, the montage with all the past greats BoxeR, Reach and Yellow indicates that.
As a really recent broodwar "fan" (idk If I even do that justice), I'm pretty sad that BW is just going to be gone from the competitive scene in Korea. Has there ever been insight into how the players as a general body feel about being forced to play a different game? For all of SC2's positives, BW is superior as a spectator sport in so many ways, imho. It's really disappointing for me that I didn't take interest in competitive BW all those years ago when I actually played SC1, and now I won't ever have that experience. Sounds dramatic, but meh..
I always wondered why those guys won't just runby the Dragoons through the Bunker line and snipe everything that's behind. Anyway, Flash is going crazy with this Marine/Medic play, I don't see how it can be any 'sound' even in hands of SC God.
Wow, gg. I don't know what Flash was thinking when going bio tank. Of course he didn't know yet Jangbi got a fast templar tech when he started to add barracks, but still
Holy shit. I didn't watch BW in a long long time and I was impressed with that match, what a sick build/read by flash to have the academys up right exactly in time for a 2gate Goon Range into DT build. He went for the all in with Tank/M&M after losing like 5-7 SCVs and then more after the DT sneak in and the Goon attack in the start. <3 BW for life.
On May 22 2012 19:57 UTL_Unlimited wrote: Flash NEEDS to win this so that Action can get through 2-1. But JANGBIIII WONT LET HIM
Don't worry, Action can still go through 2-1. :p
Yeah JangBi!
Apparently if Flash goes 2-1 and Action goes 2-1 then Flash goes through because of heads up win. Or that's what i heard the commentators say: someone clarify pl0x?
On May 22 2012 19:59 Caihead wrote: why the hell is everyone saying that flash is playing too much sc2 when bio mech push is one of the hardest things to do in TvP in BW? get a grip
On May 22 2012 19:59 alypse wrote: Flash, you may wanna stop practicing SC2 until this OSL's over.
I don't know man, Flash is the type to get hooked to something once he sets his mind to it. You'll have to pull him away from the screen and keyboard to make him stop.
KT fans who are saying "practicing SC2" and completely ignoring the fact that Jangbi got a Bo win as well as perfect scout, and that Flash splash killed a DT with a tank, that marine medic + tank push is one of the hardest things to do in BW, and Flash's micro in general need to remove their tags.
On May 22 2012 19:59 alypse wrote: Flash, you may wanna stop practicing SC2 until this OSL's over.
ffs so many idiots posting sc2 comments. flash played that pretty well considering, the saved scan on his natural was amazing. It's just you're pretty dead when dt's scout your bio rush. Jangbi can start storm immediately and delay almost indefinitely with 1 dt per scan
On May 22 2012 19:59 Tump wrote: Flash being too predictable using that build again on that map in TvP. Good preparation by Jangbi imo.
Look, flash doesnt do that stuff jsut for kicks. He does it, because it is what he thinks the strongest timing attack. Yes, Jangbi had fast templar tech, that was the gamble.
On May 22 2012 20:01 J1.au wrote: So there's this 75 mineral unit with 3 mini-nukes, it's pretty good...
there's a reason why fantasy is a tvp beast
a huge chunk of the tvp losses i see are because terrans have their vultures out of position or don't build them altogether (or enough of them at least)
On May 22 2012 20:02 jaQi wrote: This was somehow disappointing... I don't mind that Flash loses his immortal cape, but this just looks like he is completely bad...
looks can be deceiving, please try splash killing a dt in your mineral line with a tank on your own time
On May 22 2012 20:02 jaQi wrote: This was somehow disappointing... I don't mind that Flash loses his immortal cape, but this just looks like he is completely bad...
i fail to see how. maybe the first storm on his bio was bad, but there wasn't much he could do that game (scout wrong way and last, BO things, etc). Flash was just predictable, not bad.
On May 22 2012 20:01 J1.au wrote: So there's this 75 mineral unit with 3 mini-nukes, it's pretty good...
there's a reason why fantasy is a tvp beast
a huge chunk of the tvp losses i see are because terrans have their vultures out of position or don't build them altogether (or enough of them at least)
irrelevant comment on this game, flash had 1 factory, vulture = no tanks and no gas for medics because of upgrades
That was kind of bad and unlucky at the same time. When toss is going DT's, you have to lay low because you don't have enough scans, but Flash was forced to move out since his bio units would have been owned by the storm. Bad decision, going bio, but good attempt at finishing the game.
On May 22 2012 20:06 gh0stsquall wrote: sorry, bit of a n00b here, what's the format? is flash out or does he play more?
Afaik Bo3 but the other two games are played on a different day
these are Bo1s.
Lquipedia Each of those groups plays in a round-robin style so that everyone plays everyone else. The top 2 qualifiers from the group enter into the Bracket Phase. Occasionally there are ties in the group, for example 3 players are on 2-1. In the event of such a tie another round robin takes place between the tied players until usable results are attained. For example, if there are three tied players and they each go 1-1, they play another round of tiebreakers until one player goes 2-0, 1-1 and 0-2. This way it allows the players to be ranked even in the event of a tie. If two players are tied first with 2-1, the player who defeated the other one takes the first spot.
On May 22 2012 20:06 gh0stsquall wrote: sorry, bit of a n00b here, what's the format? is flash out or does he play more?
Ro16 is four groups of 4 players, round robin. Top two advance. Flash is 1-1 in his group, and very much still in the OSL. Ro8 onward is a bracket, Bo3 for the Ro8, Bo5 for the semis/finals.
Edit: Go Mini, go! Everyone's gonna lose to Fantasy, it's okay. You've still got this!
On May 22 2012 20:07 ninini wrote: That was kind of bad and unlucky at the same time. When toss is going DT's, you have to lay low because you don't have enough scans, but Flash was forced to move out since his bio units would have been owned by the storm. Bad decision, going bio, but good attempt at finishing the game.
keep in mind that jangbi was going blind templar tech, had flash just gone conventional mech terran with engineering bay jangbi would have lost completely.
On May 22 2012 20:06 gh0stsquall wrote: sorry, bit of a n00b here, what's the format? is flash out or does he play more?
He'll be out soon if he keeps practicing SC2.
:/ like nobody else is practicing SC2 right, like I said Flash got unlucky if he had pushed even 10 seconds earlier he would have stomped jangbi for not having storm.
On May 22 2012 20:06 gh0stsquall wrote: sorry, bit of a n00b here, what's the format? is flash out or does he play more?
He'll be out soon if he keeps practicing SC2.
:/ like nobody else is practicing SC2 right, like I said Flash got unlucky if he had pushed even 10 seconds earlier he would have stomped jangbi for not having storm.
That's a big if for a timing push. And while everyone practices the other game, it depends on how much they do.
On May 22 2012 20:06 gh0stsquall wrote: sorry, bit of a n00b here, what's the format? is flash out or does he play more?
He'll be out soon if he keeps practicing SC2.
:/ like nobody else is practicing SC2 right, like I said Flash got unlucky if he had pushed even 10 seconds earlier he would have stomped jangbi for not having storm.
That's a big if for a timing push. And while everyone practices the other game, it depends on how much they do.
you do realize flash was delayed by dt's killing his missile turrets right, else his timing would have been okay
On May 22 2012 20:06 gh0stsquall wrote: sorry, bit of a n00b here, what's the format? is flash out or does he play more?
He'll be out soon if he keeps practicing SC2.
:/ like nobody else is practicing SC2 right, like I said Flash got unlucky if he had pushed even 10 seconds earlier he would have stomped jangbi for not having storm.
I hope the TL admins set the team badges for SC2, it will be useful to detect the "passionate" fans...
On May 22 2012 20:06 gh0stsquall wrote: sorry, bit of a n00b here, what's the format? is flash out or does he play more?
He'll be out soon if he keeps practicing SC2.
:/ like nobody else is practicing SC2 right, like I said Flash got unlucky if he had pushed even 10 seconds earlier he would have stomped jangbi for not having storm.
I hope the TL admins set the team badges for SC2, it will be useful to detect the "passionate" fans...
On May 22 2012 20:06 gh0stsquall wrote: sorry, bit of a n00b here, what's the format? is flash out or does he play more?
He'll be out soon if he keeps practicing SC2.
:/ like nobody else is practicing SC2 right, like I said Flash got unlucky if he had pushed even 10 seconds earlier he would have stomped jangbi for not having storm.
That's a big if for a timing push. And while everyone practices the other game, it depends on how much they do.
you do realize flash was delayed by dt's killing his missile turrets right, else his timing would have been okay
On May 22 2012 20:06 gh0stsquall wrote: sorry, bit of a n00b here, what's the format? is flash out or does he play more?
He'll be out soon if he keeps practicing SC2.
:/ like nobody else is practicing SC2 right, like I said Flash got unlucky if he had pushed even 10 seconds earlier he would have stomped jangbi for not having storm.
That's a big if for a timing push. And while everyone practices the other game, it depends on how much they do.
you do realize flash was delayed by dt's killing his missile turrets right, else his timing would have been okay
On May 22 2012 20:06 gh0stsquall wrote: sorry, bit of a n00b here, what's the format? is flash out or does he play more?
He'll be out soon if he keeps practicing SC2.
:/ like nobody else is practicing SC2 right, like I said Flash got unlucky if he had pushed even 10 seconds earlier he would have stomped jangbi for not having storm.
I hope the TL admins set the team badges for SC2, it will be useful to detect the "passionate" fans...
On May 22 2012 20:06 gh0stsquall wrote: sorry, bit of a n00b here, what's the format? is flash out or does he play more?
He'll be out soon if he keeps practicing SC2.
:/ like nobody else is practicing SC2 right, like I said Flash got unlucky if he had pushed even 10 seconds earlier he would have stomped jangbi for not having storm.
That's a big if for a timing push. And while everyone practices the other game, it depends on how much they do.
you do realize flash was delayed by dt's killing his missile turrets right, else his timing would have been okay
On May 22 2012 20:06 gh0stsquall wrote: sorry, bit of a n00b here, what's the format? is flash out or does he play more?
He'll be out soon if he keeps practicing SC2.
:/ like nobody else is practicing SC2 right, like I said Flash got unlucky if he had pushed even 10 seconds earlier he would have stomped jangbi for not having storm.
That's a big if for a timing push. And while everyone practices the other game, it depends on how much they do.
you do realize flash was delayed by dt's killing his missile turrets right, else his timing would have been okay
On May 22 2012 20:06 gh0stsquall wrote: sorry, bit of a n00b here, what's the format? is flash out or does he play more?
He'll be out soon if he keeps practicing SC2.
:/ like nobody else is practicing SC2 right, like I said Flash got unlucky if he had pushed even 10 seconds earlier he would have stomped jangbi for not having storm.
That's a big if for a timing push. And while everyone practices the other game, it depends on how much they do.
you do realize flash was delayed by dt's killing his missile turrets right, else his timing would have been okay
And that means he got outplayed by Jangbi right?
he didn't get outplayed, he just got unlucky.
"unlucky" very rarely happens in BW progaming
agreed, but it happened then. As far as im concerned those two builds are as bad as 9 pool vs 12 hatch zvz
On May 22 2012 20:06 gh0stsquall wrote: sorry, bit of a n00b here, what's the format? is flash out or does he play more?
He'll be out soon if he keeps practicing SC2.
:/ like nobody else is practicing SC2 right, like I said Flash got unlucky if he had pushed even 10 seconds earlier he would have stomped jangbi for not having storm.
That's a big if for a timing push. And while everyone practices the other game, it depends on how much they do.
you do realize flash was delayed by dt's killing his missile turrets right, else his timing would have been okay
And that means he got outplayed by Jangbi right?
he didn't get outplayed, he just got unlucky.
"unlucky" very rarely happens in BW progaming
scouting last when opponent is going for a 1 base when usually toss at least expands isn't luck? =/ his scv's scout timing (when it was sent out) wasn't even late
On May 22 2012 20:26 BrosephBrostar wrote: When did Flash see the first dt? Was it already too late for him to bail out and do something different or did he decide to keep doing it anyway?
barracks went down after seeing there wasn't a natural expansion, which is a fine response for anything except dt, he saw the dt's after rax production / academy research started
On May 22 2012 20:26 BrosephBrostar wrote: When did Flash see the first dt? Was it already too late for him to bail out and do something different or did he decide to keep doing it anyway?
the 3rd rax just finished when the first 2 dts entered the base.
On May 22 2012 20:06 gh0stsquall wrote: sorry, bit of a n00b here, what's the format? is flash out or does he play more?
He'll be out soon if he keeps practicing SC2.
:/ like nobody else is practicing SC2 right, like I said Flash got unlucky if he had pushed even 10 seconds earlier he would have stomped jangbi for not having storm.
That's a big if for a timing push. And while everyone practices the other game, it depends on how much they do.
you do realize flash was delayed by dt's killing his missile turrets right, else his timing would have been okay
And that means he got outplayed by Jangbi right?
he didn't get outplayed, he just got unlucky.
He got unlucky with P very frequently lately. Except from the game with M18M today, he got rolled every time P did some unorthodox strategy. The 'old' Flash responded perfectly to whatever shit the opponent brought to him; even when he's way behind.
On May 22 2012 20:06 gh0stsquall wrote: sorry, bit of a n00b here, what's the format? is flash out or does he play more?
He'll be out soon if he keeps practicing SC2.
:/ like nobody else is practicing SC2 right, like I said Flash got unlucky if he had pushed even 10 seconds earlier he would have stomped jangbi for not having storm.
That's a big if for a timing push. And while everyone practices the other game, it depends on how much they do.
you do realize flash was delayed by dt's killing his missile turrets right, else his timing would have been okay
And that means he got outplayed by Jangbi right?
he didn't get outplayed, he just got unlucky.
"unlucky" very rarely happens in BW progaming
agreed, but it happened then. As far as im concerned those two builds are as bad as 9 pool vs 12 hatch zvz
But you can say Flash was the player that went 12hatch, which leaves him open for a 9 pool. And he did it against Jangbi, who's known for aggressive builds. In terms of mind games, Jangbi won.
Edit: I remember the last two TvPs he played against Stork and Jangbi on Ground Zero. He went 14CC and got away with both. At some point when you keep being greedy as shit, you're going to get screwed.
On May 22 2012 20:06 gh0stsquall wrote: sorry, bit of a n00b here, what's the format? is flash out or does he play more?
He'll be out soon if he keeps practicing SC2.
:/ like nobody else is practicing SC2 right, like I said Flash got unlucky if he had pushed even 10 seconds earlier he would have stomped jangbi for not having storm.
That's a big if for a timing push. And while everyone practices the other game, it depends on how much they do.
you do realize flash was delayed by dt's killing his missile turrets right, else his timing would have been okay
And that means he got outplayed by Jangbi right?
he didn't get outplayed, he just got unlucky.
He got unlucky with P very frequently lately. Except from the game with M18M today, he got rolled every time P did some unorthodox strategy. The 'old' Flash responded perfectly to whatever shit the opponent brought to him; even when he's way behind.
I won't argue that, Flash used to be so much better.
maybe its easier to believe flash is getting figured out than him getting worse because of SC2.
On May 22 2012 20:06 gh0stsquall wrote: sorry, bit of a n00b here, what's the format? is flash out or does he play more?
He'll be out soon if he keeps practicing SC2.
:/ like nobody else is practicing SC2 right, like I said Flash got unlucky if he had pushed even 10 seconds earlier he would have stomped jangbi for not having storm.
That's a big if for a timing push. And while everyone practices the other game, it depends on how much they do.
you do realize flash was delayed by dt's killing his missile turrets right, else his timing would have been okay
And that means he got outplayed by Jangbi right?
he didn't get outplayed, he just got unlucky.
He got unlucky with P very frequently lately. Except from the game with M18M today, he got rolled every time P did some unorthodox strategy. The 'old' Flash responded perfectly to whatever shit the opponent brought to him; even when he's way behind.
I'm not saying the other losses were unlucky, noone's perfect. Just this one was and he did respond amazingly well. Just no terran in the world was winning that game once the dt's were enroute
On May 22 2012 20:06 gh0stsquall wrote: sorry, bit of a n00b here, what's the format? is flash out or does he play more?
He'll be out soon if he keeps practicing SC2.
:/ like nobody else is practicing SC2 right, like I said Flash got unlucky if he had pushed even 10 seconds earlier he would have stomped jangbi for not having storm.
That's a big if for a timing push. And while everyone practices the other game, it depends on how much they do.
you do realize flash was delayed by dt's killing his missile turrets right, else his timing would have been okay
And that means he got outplayed by Jangbi right?
he didn't get outplayed, he just got unlucky.
He got unlucky with P very frequently lately. Except from the game with M18M today, he got rolled every time P did some unorthodox strategy. The 'old' Flash responded perfectly to whatever shit the opponent brought to him; even when he's way behind.
flash invented the modern approach / answer to 2 base carrier in 2008 and matured it during 2009-2010 against stork with fast mech upgrades then getting factory count up, M18M had a huge econ advantage to begin with and he still managed to win so, the "old" flash is still here
On May 22 2012 20:06 gh0stsquall wrote: sorry, bit of a n00b here, what's the format? is flash out or does he play more?
He'll be out soon if he keeps practicing SC2.
:/ like nobody else is practicing SC2 right, like I said Flash got unlucky if he had pushed even 10 seconds earlier he would have stomped jangbi for not having storm.
That's a big if for a timing push. And while everyone practices the other game, it depends on how much they do.
you do realize flash was delayed by dt's killing his missile turrets right, else his timing would have been okay
And that means he got outplayed by Jangbi right?
he didn't get outplayed, he just got unlucky.
He got unlucky with P very frequently lately. Except from the game with M18M today, he got rolled every time P did some unorthodox strategy. The 'old' Flash responded perfectly to whatever shit the opponent brought to him; even when he's way behind.
flash invented the modern approach / answer to 2 base carrier in 2008 and matured it during 2009-2010 against stork with fast mech upgrades then getting factory count up, M18M had a huge econ advantage to begin with and he still managed to win so, the "old" flash is still here
On May 22 2012 20:06 gh0stsquall wrote: sorry, bit of a n00b here, what's the format? is flash out or does he play more?
He'll be out soon if he keeps practicing SC2.
:/ like nobody else is practicing SC2 right, like I said Flash got unlucky if he had pushed even 10 seconds earlier he would have stomped jangbi for not having storm.
That's a big if for a timing push. And while everyone practices the other game, it depends on how much they do.
you do realize flash was delayed by dt's killing his missile turrets right, else his timing would have been okay
And that means he got outplayed by Jangbi right?
he didn't get outplayed, he just got unlucky.
He got unlucky with P very frequently lately. Except from the game with M18M today, he got rolled every time P did some unorthodox strategy. The 'old' Flash responded perfectly to whatever shit the opponent brought to him; even when he's way behind.
flash invented the modern approach / answer to 2 base carrier in 2008 and matured it during 2009-2010 against stork with fast mech upgrades then getting factory count up, M18M had a huge econ advantage to begin with and he still managed to win so, the "old" flash is still here
enough, let us enjoy this ZvZzzzz
zzzzzzzzzzz wait no hyvaa's playing, can I anti fan him
On May 22 2012 20:06 gh0stsquall wrote: sorry, bit of a n00b here, what's the format? is flash out or does he play more?
He'll be out soon if he keeps practicing SC2.
:/ like nobody else is practicing SC2 right, like I said Flash got unlucky if he had pushed even 10 seconds earlier he would have stomped jangbi for not having storm.
That's a big if for a timing push. And while everyone practices the other game, it depends on how much they do.
you do realize flash was delayed by dt's killing his missile turrets right, else his timing would have been okay
And that means he got outplayed by Jangbi right?
he didn't get outplayed, he just got unlucky.
He got unlucky with P very frequently lately. Except from the game with M18M today, he got rolled every time P did some unorthodox strategy. The 'old' Flash responded perfectly to whatever shit the opponent brought to him; even when he's way behind.
Protosses do unorthodox strategies against Flash because Flash is by far the greediest TvP player in the world. Even this game, he Rax-Expanded off of one marine. Yeah, this build tend to be vulnerable to 1-base shennanigans of course.
I'll take you guys' words for it, I came late to the game, saw 2 dts getting picked off and then more dt's meticulously delaying the marine tank push until storm was done
in my eyes, with that info, jangbi countered perfectly and outplayed flash in this regard. Im sorry if i concluded incorrectly with incomplete info
On May 22 2012 20:06 gh0stsquall wrote: sorry, bit of a n00b here, what's the format? is flash out or does he play more?
He'll be out soon if he keeps practicing SC2.
:/ like nobody else is practicing SC2 right, like I said Flash got unlucky if he had pushed even 10 seconds earlier he would have stomped jangbi for not having storm.
That's a big if for a timing push. And while everyone practices the other game, it depends on how much they do.
you do realize flash was delayed by dt's killing his missile turrets right, else his timing would have been okay
And that means he got outplayed by Jangbi right?
he didn't get outplayed, he just got unlucky.
He got unlucky with P very frequently lately. Except from the game with M18M today, he got rolled every time P did some unorthodox strategy. The 'old' Flash responded perfectly to whatever shit the opponent brought to him; even when he's way behind.
I'm not saying the other losses were unlucky, noone's perfect. Just this one was and he did respond amazingly well. Just no terran in the world was winning that game once the dt's were enroute
I'm not that certain. Like some guy before said it, he could've stopped going for bio the moment he saw the 2 DTs. That way storms would not have demolished half his army.. And because Jangbi opted for DTs opening, Flash would not be so much behind, if not even.
On May 22 2012 20:34 Adron wrote: I'll take you guys' words for it, I came late to the game, saw 2 dts getting picked off and then more dt's meticulously delaying the marine tank push until storm was done
in my eyes, with that info, jangbi countered perfectly and outplayed flash in this regard. Im sorry if i concluded incorrectly with incomplete info
jangbi's dt's were blind, flash's marines were with scouting, he just couldn't see the templar archives, only got to see no natural because he scouted jangbi last
:/ like nobody else is practicing SC2 right, like I said Flash got unlucky if he had pushed even 10 seconds earlier he would have stomped jangbi for not having storm.
That's a big if for a timing push. And while everyone practices the other game, it depends on how much they do.
you do realize flash was delayed by dt's killing his missile turrets right, else his timing would have been okay
And that means he got outplayed by Jangbi right?
he didn't get outplayed, he just got unlucky.
He got unlucky with P very frequently lately. Except from the game with M18M today, he got rolled every time P did some unorthodox strategy. The 'old' Flash responded perfectly to whatever shit the opponent brought to him; even when he's way behind.
flash invented the modern approach / answer to 2 base carrier in 2008 and matured it during 2009-2010 against stork with fast mech upgrades then getting factory count up, M18M had a huge econ advantage to begin with and he still managed to win so, the "old" flash is still here
enough, let us enjoy this ZvZzzzz
zzzzzzzzzzz wait no hyvaa's playing, can I anti fan him
On May 22 2012 20:06 gh0stsquall wrote: sorry, bit of a n00b here, what's the format? is flash out or does he play more?
He'll be out soon if he keeps practicing SC2.
:/ like nobody else is practicing SC2 right, like I said Flash got unlucky if he had pushed even 10 seconds earlier he would have stomped jangbi for not having storm.
That's a big if for a timing push. And while everyone practices the other game, it depends on how much they do.
you do realize flash was delayed by dt's killing his missile turrets right, else his timing would have been okay
And that means he got outplayed by Jangbi right?
he didn't get outplayed, he just got unlucky.
He got unlucky with P very frequently lately. Except from the game with M18M today, he got rolled every time P did some unorthodox strategy. The 'old' Flash responded perfectly to whatever shit the opponent brought to him; even when he's way behind.
I'm not saying the other losses were unlucky, noone's perfect. Just this one was and he did respond amazingly well. Just no terran in the world was winning that game once the dt's were enroute
I'm not that certain. Like some guy before said it, he could've stopped going for bio the moment he saw the 2 DTs. That way storms would not have demolished half his army.. And because Jangbi opted for DTs opening, Flash would not be so much behind, if not even.
... you really don't understand TvP at all do you? Flash already had 3 rax up, a medic and stim on the way. There is no way he's transitioning back into mech.
:/ like nobody else is practicing SC2 right, like I said Flash got unlucky if he had pushed even 10 seconds earlier he would have stomped jangbi for not having storm.
That's a big if for a timing push. And while everyone practices the other game, it depends on how much they do.
you do realize flash was delayed by dt's killing his missile turrets right, else his timing would have been okay
And that means he got outplayed by Jangbi right?
he didn't get outplayed, he just got unlucky.
He got unlucky with P very frequently lately. Except from the game with M18M today, he got rolled every time P did some unorthodox strategy. The 'old' Flash responded perfectly to whatever shit the opponent brought to him; even when he's way behind.
flash invented the modern approach / answer to 2 base carrier in 2008 and matured it during 2009-2010 against stork with fast mech upgrades then getting factory count up, M18M had a huge econ advantage to begin with and he still managed to win so, the "old" flash is still here
enough, let us enjoy this ZvZzzzz
zzzzzzzzzzz wait no hyvaa's playing, can I anti fan him
thats not just me saying it right, I mean, hyvaa really did have bad micro there, he didn't need to pull that many workers and he didn't micro them at all
:/ like nobody else is practicing SC2 right, like I said Flash got unlucky if he had pushed even 10 seconds earlier he would have stomped jangbi for not having storm.
That's a big if for a timing push. And while everyone practices the other game, it depends on how much they do.
you do realize flash was delayed by dt's killing his missile turrets right, else his timing would have been okay
And that means he got outplayed by Jangbi right?
he didn't get outplayed, he just got unlucky.
He got unlucky with P very frequently lately. Except from the game with M18M today, he got rolled every time P did some unorthodox strategy. The 'old' Flash responded perfectly to whatever shit the opponent brought to him; even when he's way behind.
I'm not saying the other losses were unlucky, noone's perfect. Just this one was and he did respond amazingly well. Just no terran in the world was winning that game once the dt's were enroute
I'm not that certain. Like some guy before said it, he could've stopped going for bio the moment he saw the 2 DTs. That way storms would not have demolished half his army.. And because Jangbi opted for DTs opening, Flash would not be so much behind, if not even.
... you really don't understand TvP at all do you? Flash already had 3 rax up, a medic and stim on the way. There is no way he's transitioning back into mech.
Watch the game again before spitting out nonsense. He only had 1 rax up, the other 2 were still being build. And it's not like the researches are done at that moment. If he's really the old Flash, he could mech up just fine. Only his stubbornness could stop him from doing so.
:/ like nobody else is practicing SC2 right, like I said Flash got unlucky if he had pushed even 10 seconds earlier he would have stomped jangbi for not having storm.
That's a big if for a timing push. And while everyone practices the other game, it depends on how much they do.
you do realize flash was delayed by dt's killing his missile turrets right, else his timing would have been okay
And that means he got outplayed by Jangbi right?
he didn't get outplayed, he just got unlucky.
He got unlucky with P very frequently lately. Except from the game with M18M today, he got rolled every time P did some unorthodox strategy. The 'old' Flash responded perfectly to whatever shit the opponent brought to him; even when he's way behind.
I'm not saying the other losses were unlucky, noone's perfect. Just this one was and he did respond amazingly well. Just no terran in the world was winning that game once the dt's were enroute
I'm not that certain. Like some guy before said it, he could've stopped going for bio the moment he saw the 2 DTs. That way storms would not have demolished half his army.. And because Jangbi opted for DTs opening, Flash would not be so much behind, if not even.
... you really don't understand TvP at all do you? Flash already had 3 rax up, a medic and stim on the way. There is no way he's transitioning back into mech.
Watch the game again before spitting out nonsense. He only had 1 rax up, the other 2 were still being build. And it's not like the researches are done at that moment. If he's really the old Flash, he could mech up just fine. Only his stubbornness could stop him from doing so.
he also had no factories up, so what your saying is he should defend against a potential all in attack with zealots / dragoons with just 1 factory tank production until he made factories? not to mention the lack of gas mining due to adjustment in his build. And it is being the "old flash" that makes him lose games some times, see canceling turrets against dear. He also couldn't spare scans in Jangbi's main because he was constantly defending against DT's. He can't just have that huge gap in production because if Jangbi has templar tech, he also has the ability to do zealot legs tech.
That's a big if for a timing push. And while everyone practices the other game, it depends on how much they do.
you do realize flash was delayed by dt's killing his missile turrets right, else his timing would have been okay
And that means he got outplayed by Jangbi right?
he didn't get outplayed, he just got unlucky.
He got unlucky with P very frequently lately. Except from the game with M18M today, he got rolled every time P did some unorthodox strategy. The 'old' Flash responded perfectly to whatever shit the opponent brought to him; even when he's way behind.
I'm not saying the other losses were unlucky, noone's perfect. Just this one was and he did respond amazingly well. Just no terran in the world was winning that game once the dt's were enroute
I'm not that certain. Like some guy before said it, he could've stopped going for bio the moment he saw the 2 DTs. That way storms would not have demolished half his army.. And because Jangbi opted for DTs opening, Flash would not be so much behind, if not even.
... you really don't understand TvP at all do you? Flash already had 3 rax up, a medic and stim on the way. There is no way he's transitioning back into mech.
Watch the game again before spitting out nonsense. He only had 1 rax up, the other 2 were still being build. And it's not like the researches are done at that moment. If he's really the old Flash, he could mech up just fine. Only his stubbornness could stop him from doing so.
he also had no factories up, so what your saying is he should defend against a potential all in attack with zealots / dragoons with just 1 factory tank production until he made factories? not to mention the lack of gas mining due to adjustment in his build. And it is being the "old flash" that makes him lose games some times, see canceling turrets against dear.
I don't think 2 gates with an expansion on the way would result in a fatal all-in consist of goons and zeals. By the time Jangbi's got a decent amount of units, Flash would have had enough to hold off. We all know how good his turtling is.
I say Stork gets forever denied the handrpint due to trashtalk during group ceremony And of course well arranged gateways are simply too strong for dinosaurs to overcome.
you do realize flash was delayed by dt's killing his missile turrets right, else his timing would have been okay
And that means he got outplayed by Jangbi right?
he didn't get outplayed, he just got unlucky.
He got unlucky with P very frequently lately. Except from the game with M18M today, he got rolled every time P did some unorthodox strategy. The 'old' Flash responded perfectly to whatever shit the opponent brought to him; even when he's way behind.
I'm not saying the other losses were unlucky, noone's perfect. Just this one was and he did respond amazingly well. Just no terran in the world was winning that game once the dt's were enroute
I'm not that certain. Like some guy before said it, he could've stopped going for bio the moment he saw the 2 DTs. That way storms would not have demolished half his army.. And because Jangbi opted for DTs opening, Flash would not be so much behind, if not even.
... you really don't understand TvP at all do you? Flash already had 3 rax up, a medic and stim on the way. There is no way he's transitioning back into mech.
Watch the game again before spitting out nonsense. He only had 1 rax up, the other 2 were still being build. And it's not like the researches are done at that moment. If he's really the old Flash, he could mech up just fine. Only his stubbornness could stop him from doing so.
he also had no factories up, so what your saying is he should defend against a potential all in attack with zealots / dragoons with just 1 factory tank production until he made factories? not to mention the lack of gas mining due to adjustment in his build. And it is being the "old flash" that makes him lose games some times, see canceling turrets against dear.
I don't think 2 gates with an expansion on the way would result in a fatal all-in consist of goons and zeals. By the time Jangbi's got a decent amount of units, Flash would have had enough to hold off. We all know how good his turtling is.
Flash already knows this: no natural expansion from jangbi if it were a 1 gate or 2 gate expand, 6 goons at that time of factory's machine shop just finishing up, dt's. This means a natural expansion was NOT on the way yet for Jangbi, and there were definitely some kind of gateway unit variation all in happening.
He got unlucky with P very frequently lately. Except from the game with M18M today, he got rolled every time P did some unorthodox strategy. The 'old' Flash responded perfectly to whatever shit the opponent brought to him; even when he's way behind.
I'm not saying the other losses were unlucky, noone's perfect. Just this one was and he did respond amazingly well. Just no terran in the world was winning that game once the dt's were enroute
I'm not that certain. Like some guy before said it, he could've stopped going for bio the moment he saw the 2 DTs. That way storms would not have demolished half his army.. And because Jangbi opted for DTs opening, Flash would not be so much behind, if not even.
... you really don't understand TvP at all do you? Flash already had 3 rax up, a medic and stim on the way. There is no way he's transitioning back into mech.
Watch the game again before spitting out nonsense. He only had 1 rax up, the other 2 were still being build. And it's not like the researches are done at that moment. If he's really the old Flash, he could mech up just fine. Only his stubbornness could stop him from doing so.
he also had no factories up, so what your saying is he should defend against a potential all in attack with zealots / dragoons with just 1 factory tank production until he made factories? not to mention the lack of gas mining due to adjustment in his build. And it is being the "old flash" that makes him lose games some times, see canceling turrets against dear.
I don't think 2 gates with an expansion on the way would result in a fatal all-in consist of goons and zeals. By the time Jangbi's got a decent amount of units, Flash would have had enough to hold off. We all know how good his turtling is.
Flash already knows this: no natural expansion from jangbi if it were a 1 gate or 2 gate expand, 6 goons at that time of factory's machine shop just finishing up, dt's. This means a natural expansion was NOT on the way yet for Jangbi, and there were definitely some kind of gateway unit variation all in happening.
No, there WAS. Jangbi was already expanding before trying to sneak 2 DTs into Flash's base. You didn't watch the game careful enough. And if Flash guessed it wrong it's his fault of course.
On May 22 2012 20:22 Scarecrow wrote: [quote] he didn't get outplayed, he just got unlucky.
He got unlucky with P very frequently lately. Except from the game with M18M today, he got rolled every time P did some unorthodox strategy. The 'old' Flash responded perfectly to whatever shit the opponent brought to him; even when he's way behind.
I'm not saying the other losses were unlucky, noone's perfect. Just this one was and he did respond amazingly well. Just no terran in the world was winning that game once the dt's were enroute
I'm not that certain. Like some guy before said it, he could've stopped going for bio the moment he saw the 2 DTs. That way storms would not have demolished half his army.. And because Jangbi opted for DTs opening, Flash would not be so much behind, if not even.
... you really don't understand TvP at all do you? Flash already had 3 rax up, a medic and stim on the way. There is no way he's transitioning back into mech.
Watch the game again before spitting out nonsense. He only had 1 rax up, the other 2 were still being build. And it's not like the researches are done at that moment. If he's really the old Flash, he could mech up just fine. Only his stubbornness could stop him from doing so.
he also had no factories up, so what your saying is he should defend against a potential all in attack with zealots / dragoons with just 1 factory tank production until he made factories? not to mention the lack of gas mining due to adjustment in his build. And it is being the "old flash" that makes him lose games some times, see canceling turrets against dear.
I don't think 2 gates with an expansion on the way would result in a fatal all-in consist of goons and zeals. By the time Jangbi's got a decent amount of units, Flash would have had enough to hold off. We all know how good his turtling is.
Flash already knows this: no natural expansion from jangbi if it were a 1 gate or 2 gate expand, 6 goons at that time of factory's machine shop just finishing up, dt's. This means a natural expansion was NOT on the way yet for Jangbi, and there were definitely some kind of gateway unit variation all in happening.
No, there WAS. Jangbi was already expanding before trying to sneak 2 DTs into Flash's base. You didn't watch the game careful enough. And if Flash guessed it wrong it's his fault of course.
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god
He got unlucky with P very frequently lately. Except from the game with M18M today, he got rolled every time P did some unorthodox strategy. The 'old' Flash responded perfectly to whatever shit the opponent brought to him; even when he's way behind.
I'm not saying the other losses were unlucky, noone's perfect. Just this one was and he did respond amazingly well. Just no terran in the world was winning that game once the dt's were enroute
I'm not that certain. Like some guy before said it, he could've stopped going for bio the moment he saw the 2 DTs. That way storms would not have demolished half his army.. And because Jangbi opted for DTs opening, Flash would not be so much behind, if not even.
... you really don't understand TvP at all do you? Flash already had 3 rax up, a medic and stim on the way. There is no way he's transitioning back into mech.
Watch the game again before spitting out nonsense. He only had 1 rax up, the other 2 were still being build. And it's not like the researches are done at that moment. If he's really the old Flash, he could mech up just fine. Only his stubbornness could stop him from doing so.
he also had no factories up, so what your saying is he should defend against a potential all in attack with zealots / dragoons with just 1 factory tank production until he made factories? not to mention the lack of gas mining due to adjustment in his build. And it is being the "old flash" that makes him lose games some times, see canceling turrets against dear.
I don't think 2 gates with an expansion on the way would result in a fatal all-in consist of goons and zeals. By the time Jangbi's got a decent amount of units, Flash would have had enough to hold off. We all know how good his turtling is.
Flash already knows this: no natural expansion from jangbi if it were a 1 gate or 2 gate expand, 6 goons at that time of factory's machine shop just finishing up, dt's. This means a natural expansion was NOT on the way yet for Jangbi, and there were definitely some kind of gateway unit variation all in happening.
No, there WAS. Jangbi was already expanding before trying to sneak 2 DTs into Flash's base. You didn't watch the game careful enough. And if Flash guessed it wrong it's his fault of course.
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god
Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning.
On May 22 2012 20:31 Scarecrow wrote: [quote] I'm not saying the other losses were unlucky, noone's perfect. Just this one was and he did respond amazingly well. Just no terran in the world was winning that game once the dt's were enroute
I'm not that certain. Like some guy before said it, he could've stopped going for bio the moment he saw the 2 DTs. That way storms would not have demolished half his army.. And because Jangbi opted for DTs opening, Flash would not be so much behind, if not even.
... you really don't understand TvP at all do you? Flash already had 3 rax up, a medic and stim on the way. There is no way he's transitioning back into mech.
Watch the game again before spitting out nonsense. He only had 1 rax up, the other 2 were still being build. And it's not like the researches are done at that moment. If he's really the old Flash, he could mech up just fine. Only his stubbornness could stop him from doing so.
he also had no factories up, so what your saying is he should defend against a potential all in attack with zealots / dragoons with just 1 factory tank production until he made factories? not to mention the lack of gas mining due to adjustment in his build. And it is being the "old flash" that makes him lose games some times, see canceling turrets against dear.
I don't think 2 gates with an expansion on the way would result in a fatal all-in consist of goons and zeals. By the time Jangbi's got a decent amount of units, Flash would have had enough to hold off. We all know how good his turtling is.
Flash already knows this: no natural expansion from jangbi if it were a 1 gate or 2 gate expand, 6 goons at that time of factory's machine shop just finishing up, dt's. This means a natural expansion was NOT on the way yet for Jangbi, and there were definitely some kind of gateway unit variation all in happening.
No, there WAS. Jangbi was already expanding before trying to sneak 2 DTs into Flash's base. You didn't watch the game careful enough. And if Flash guessed it wrong it's his fault of course.
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god
Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning.
He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest?
I'm not that certain. Like some guy before said it, he could've stopped going for bio the moment he saw the 2 DTs. That way storms would not have demolished half his army.. And because Jangbi opted for DTs opening, Flash would not be so much behind, if not even.
... you really don't understand TvP at all do you? Flash already had 3 rax up, a medic and stim on the way. There is no way he's transitioning back into mech.
Watch the game again before spitting out nonsense. He only had 1 rax up, the other 2 were still being build. And it's not like the researches are done at that moment. If he's really the old Flash, he could mech up just fine. Only his stubbornness could stop him from doing so.
he also had no factories up, so what your saying is he should defend against a potential all in attack with zealots / dragoons with just 1 factory tank production until he made factories? not to mention the lack of gas mining due to adjustment in his build. And it is being the "old flash" that makes him lose games some times, see canceling turrets against dear.
I don't think 2 gates with an expansion on the way would result in a fatal all-in consist of goons and zeals. By the time Jangbi's got a decent amount of units, Flash would have had enough to hold off. We all know how good his turtling is.
Flash already knows this: no natural expansion from jangbi if it were a 1 gate or 2 gate expand, 6 goons at that time of factory's machine shop just finishing up, dt's. This means a natural expansion was NOT on the way yet for Jangbi, and there were definitely some kind of gateway unit variation all in happening.
No, there WAS. Jangbi was already expanding before trying to sneak 2 DTs into Flash's base. You didn't watch the game careful enough. And if Flash guessed it wrong it's his fault of course.
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god
Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning.
He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest?
How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So?
On May 22 2012 21:10 MrCon wrote: Wait, is that over already ? I don't understand this format at all TT Today was only the first half of 2 round robin groups ?
Round robin, 4 groups => 6 games per group => 1 game of each group played on 6 days.
On May 22 2012 21:10 MrCon wrote: Wait, is that over already ? I don't understand this format at all TT Today was only the first half of 2 round robin groups ?
1 game of each round robin group (4 groups) = 4 games a day.
6 days of 4 games for each match up with in the round robin.
On May 22 2012 21:10 MrCon wrote: Wait, is that over already ? I don't understand this format at all TT Today was only the first half of 2 round robin groups ?
There are 4 groups, everyone plays everyone once, top two advance
I didn't really like this intro at the beginning, but the song is starting to grow on me and now I want the MV
On May 22 2012 20:38 Scarecrow wrote: [quote] ... you really don't understand TvP at all do you? Flash already had 3 rax up, a medic and stim on the way. There is no way he's transitioning back into mech.
Watch the game again before spitting out nonsense. He only had 1 rax up, the other 2 were still being build. And it's not like the researches are done at that moment. If he's really the old Flash, he could mech up just fine. Only his stubbornness could stop him from doing so.
he also had no factories up, so what your saying is he should defend against a potential all in attack with zealots / dragoons with just 1 factory tank production until he made factories? not to mention the lack of gas mining due to adjustment in his build. And it is being the "old flash" that makes him lose games some times, see canceling turrets against dear.
I don't think 2 gates with an expansion on the way would result in a fatal all-in consist of goons and zeals. By the time Jangbi's got a decent amount of units, Flash would have had enough to hold off. We all know how good his turtling is.
Flash already knows this: no natural expansion from jangbi if it were a 1 gate or 2 gate expand, 6 goons at that time of factory's machine shop just finishing up, dt's. This means a natural expansion was NOT on the way yet for Jangbi, and there were definitely some kind of gateway unit variation all in happening.
No, there WAS. Jangbi was already expanding before trying to sneak 2 DTs into Flash's base. You didn't watch the game careful enough. And if Flash guessed it wrong it's his fault of course.
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god
Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning.
He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest?
How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So?
Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"? The logical move was to pressure Jangbi with what ever unit combination you had and commit to the attack, because either you are able to fight off Jangbi's gateway aggression and/or kill his potential natural, or you lose from a break or a macro game where the opponent has higher tech advantage against your composition.
On May 22 2012 20:38 Scarecrow wrote: [quote] ... you really don't understand TvP at all do you? Flash already had 3 rax up, a medic and stim on the way. There is no way he's transitioning back into mech.
Watch the game again before spitting out nonsense. He only had 1 rax up, the other 2 were still being build. And it's not like the researches are done at that moment. If he's really the old Flash, he could mech up just fine. Only his stubbornness could stop him from doing so.
he also had no factories up, so what your saying is he should defend against a potential all in attack with zealots / dragoons with just 1 factory tank production until he made factories? not to mention the lack of gas mining due to adjustment in his build. And it is being the "old flash" that makes him lose games some times, see canceling turrets against dear.
I don't think 2 gates with an expansion on the way would result in a fatal all-in consist of goons and zeals. By the time Jangbi's got a decent amount of units, Flash would have had enough to hold off. We all know how good his turtling is.
Flash already knows this: no natural expansion from jangbi if it were a 1 gate or 2 gate expand, 6 goons at that time of factory's machine shop just finishing up, dt's. This means a natural expansion was NOT on the way yet for Jangbi, and there were definitely some kind of gateway unit variation all in happening.
No, there WAS. Jangbi was already expanding before trying to sneak 2 DTs into Flash's base. You didn't watch the game careful enough. And if Flash guessed it wrong it's his fault of course.
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god
Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning.
He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest?
How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So?
FWIW, Jangbi in his post-game interview said he knew he won when his DT scouted the bio-mech. So really Flash was dead at that point and any transition, or lack thereof, would not have made a difference.
Watch the game again before spitting out nonsense. He only had 1 rax up, the other 2 were still being build. And it's not like the researches are done at that moment. If he's really the old Flash, he could mech up just fine. Only his stubbornness could stop him from doing so.
he also had no factories up, so what your saying is he should defend against a potential all in attack with zealots / dragoons with just 1 factory tank production until he made factories? not to mention the lack of gas mining due to adjustment in his build. And it is being the "old flash" that makes him lose games some times, see canceling turrets against dear.
I don't think 2 gates with an expansion on the way would result in a fatal all-in consist of goons and zeals. By the time Jangbi's got a decent amount of units, Flash would have had enough to hold off. We all know how good his turtling is.
Flash already knows this: no natural expansion from jangbi if it were a 1 gate or 2 gate expand, 6 goons at that time of factory's machine shop just finishing up, dt's. This means a natural expansion was NOT on the way yet for Jangbi, and there were definitely some kind of gateway unit variation all in happening.
No, there WAS. Jangbi was already expanding before trying to sneak 2 DTs into Flash's base. You didn't watch the game careful enough. And if Flash guessed it wrong it's his fault of course.
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god
Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning.
He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest?
How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So?
Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"?
Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation.
Stork can be one game close to win the OSL, but still top BoxeR ! (1 win Ro16, 3 wins Ro8, 3 wins Ro4, 2 wins Finals, total 109). In that case they should really make him a silver mouse.
he also had no factories up, so what your saying is he should defend against a potential all in attack with zealots / dragoons with just 1 factory tank production until he made factories? not to mention the lack of gas mining due to adjustment in his build. And it is being the "old flash" that makes him lose games some times, see canceling turrets against dear.
I don't think 2 gates with an expansion on the way would result in a fatal all-in consist of goons and zeals. By the time Jangbi's got a decent amount of units, Flash would have had enough to hold off. We all know how good his turtling is.
Flash already knows this: no natural expansion from jangbi if it were a 1 gate or 2 gate expand, 6 goons at that time of factory's machine shop just finishing up, dt's. This means a natural expansion was NOT on the way yet for Jangbi, and there were definitely some kind of gateway unit variation all in happening.
No, there WAS. Jangbi was already expanding before trying to sneak 2 DTs into Flash's base. You didn't watch the game careful enough. And if Flash guessed it wrong it's his fault of course.
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god
Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning.
He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest?
How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So?
Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"?
Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation.
Flash made the mistake of trying to go bio. But once you make bio, you have to continue with it until you can reasonably transition. After he scouted DT there's 0 way he could transition into mech until he had found a way to do it without falling incredibly behind.
The situation is not that he shouldn't have gone bio, but once he made that choice, he has to stick with it.
Stork can be one game close to win the OSL, but still top BoxeR ! (1 win Ro16, 3 wins Ro8, 3 wins Ro4, 2 wins Finals, total 109). In that case they should really make him a silver mouse.
I don't know how they calculate it but July has 98 wins total, as commentators said after Stork's win.
Well, the only thing I find in TLPD which can seemingly make up for these +2 wins is an OGN challenge seed selection mini-tourney in 2003, where he beat Yellow twice - this event seems unique enough that they wouldn't count it as OSL proper, so this is my guess.
Interesting, TLPD doesn't have Fantasy's Incruit prelim results (2-0 YoungA[KaL], 2-1 Saint, 2-0 Firebathero). [How could he have made the OSL without passing through prelims ]
he also had no factories up, so what your saying is he should defend against a potential all in attack with zealots / dragoons with just 1 factory tank production until he made factories? not to mention the lack of gas mining due to adjustment in his build. And it is being the "old flash" that makes him lose games some times, see canceling turrets against dear.
I don't think 2 gates with an expansion on the way would result in a fatal all-in consist of goons and zeals. By the time Jangbi's got a decent amount of units, Flash would have had enough to hold off. We all know how good his turtling is.
Flash already knows this: no natural expansion from jangbi if it were a 1 gate or 2 gate expand, 6 goons at that time of factory's machine shop just finishing up, dt's. This means a natural expansion was NOT on the way yet for Jangbi, and there were definitely some kind of gateway unit variation all in happening.
No, there WAS. Jangbi was already expanding before trying to sneak 2 DTs into Flash's base. You didn't watch the game careful enough. And if Flash guessed it wrong it's his fault of course.
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god
Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning.
He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest?
How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So?
Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"?
Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation.
Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will.
On May 22 2012 23:34 Release wrote: Jangbi didn't play well. Flash played like shit. I don't know why Terrans still insist on 1rax CC in TvP. Take one look at sea and ...
Eh? What makes you say Jangbi didn't play well?
There's a lot of bad comments about Jangbi vs Flash game lol
On May 22 2012 23:34 Release wrote: Jangbi didn't play well. Flash played like shit. I don't know why Terrans still insist on 1rax CC in TvP. Take one look at sea and ...
Eh? What makes you say Jangbi didn't play well?
There's a lot of bad comments about Jangbi vs Flash game lol
Because Flash fanboys, for whatever reason, actually believe that Flash's game sense is on par with their 20/20 hindsight. For whatever reason, Jangbi seemed to have Flash figured out in the OSL. Too bad he failed in the PL playoffs though.
I don't think 2 gates with an expansion on the way would result in a fatal all-in consist of goons and zeals. By the time Jangbi's got a decent amount of units, Flash would have had enough to hold off. We all know how good his turtling is.
Flash already knows this: no natural expansion from jangbi if it were a 1 gate or 2 gate expand, 6 goons at that time of factory's machine shop just finishing up, dt's. This means a natural expansion was NOT on the way yet for Jangbi, and there were definitely some kind of gateway unit variation all in happening.
No, there WAS. Jangbi was already expanding before trying to sneak 2 DTs into Flash's base. You didn't watch the game careful enough. And if Flash guessed it wrong it's his fault of course.
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god
Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning.
He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest?
How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So?
Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"?
Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation.
Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will.
Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat.
Flash was in a bad position to start but Jangbi played well to stop the push. IIRC Flash didn't even make to the ridge closest to Jangbi's nat. Normally a Terran is able to make it that far. The subsequent contain would be broken at least they'd get there. Jangbi was great that game.
Edit: When exactly did Flash know Jangbi went DT's? Was it when they got into his base? Because by that point i think he was already on 3 rax. Did he know before then?
Because Flash fanboys, for whatever reason, actually believe that Flash's game sense is on par with their 20/20 hindsight. For whatever reason, Jangbi seemed to have Flash figured out in the OSL. Too bad he failed in the PL playoffs though.
Lol, same bs regarding Effort... Win a series against Flash: instant hero. That's how good he is.
You know, Flash loses sometimes - big fucking deal.
On May 23 2012 00:19 ShadeR wrote: Flash was in a bad position to start but Jangbi played well to stop the push. IIRC Flash didn't even make to the ridge closest to Jangbi's nat. Normally a Terran is able to make it that far. The subsequent contain would be broken at least they'd get there. Jangbi was great that game.
Edit: When exactly did Flash know Jangbi went DT's? Was it when they got into his base? Because by that point i think he was already on 3 rax. Did he know before then?
I missed the moment, but seeing as how his bunker and tank was attacking the dts as they ran by, Flash must have seen the outline and scanned as they passed by.
Other small clues were lack of a natural nexus, and reasonable assumption that JB went for two gates (I didn't see early part of game to see if Flash scouted main or not).
I think sc2 really confuses flash, I mean, going bio vs p... meh. really disappointing. I'm sure if he went mech he would crush jangbi's lame dt opening.
I hope he still cares about bw so this OSL won't be ruined because of sc2.
On May 23 2012 00:19 ShadeR wrote:
Edit: When exactly did Flash know Jangbi went DT's? Was it when they got into his base? Because by that point i think he was already on 3 rax. Did he know before then?
Since he got only 1 scan i guess he just scanned when he saw the blur. He also killed the injured dt with friendly siege fire(fucking pimp) that observers missed lol. guess they are also confused by sc2.
On May 23 2012 01:44 Operations wrote: I think sc2 really confuses flash, I mean, going bio vs p... meh. really disappointing. I'm sure if he went mech he would crush jangbi's lame dt opening.
I hope he still cares about bw so this OSL won't be ruined because of sc2.
Edit: When exactly did Flash know Jangbi went DT's? Was it when they got into his base? Because by that point i think he was already on 3 rax. Did he know before then?
Since he got only 1 scan i guess he just scanned when he saw the blur. He also killed the injured dt with friendly siege fire(fucking pimp) that observers missed lol. guess they are also confused by sc2.
He missed the actual death scene (I think the obs was looking at JB's nat or possibly flash's) but he was indicating the sieged tank in Flash's main had a kill.
I don't think 2 gates with an expansion on the way would result in a fatal all-in consist of goons and zeals. By the time Jangbi's got a decent amount of units, Flash would have had enough to hold off. We all know how good his turtling is.
Flash already knows this: no natural expansion from jangbi if it were a 1 gate or 2 gate expand, 6 goons at that time of factory's machine shop just finishing up, dt's. This means a natural expansion was NOT on the way yet for Jangbi, and there were definitely some kind of gateway unit variation all in happening.
No, there WAS. Jangbi was already expanding before trying to sneak 2 DTs into Flash's base. You didn't watch the game careful enough. And if Flash guessed it wrong it's his fault of course.
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god
Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning.
He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest?
How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So?
Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"?
Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation.
Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will.
I guess you two simply agree that Flash was already lost, no matter what he did.
Flash already knows this: no natural expansion from jangbi if it were a 1 gate or 2 gate expand, 6 goons at that time of factory's machine shop just finishing up, dt's. This means a natural expansion was NOT on the way yet for Jangbi, and there were definitely some kind of gateway unit variation all in happening.
No, there WAS. Jangbi was already expanding before trying to sneak 2 DTs into Flash's base. You didn't watch the game careful enough. And if Flash guessed it wrong it's his fault of course.
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god
Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning.
He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest?
How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So?
Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"?
Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation.
Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will.
Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. 1 All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base.2 And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies.3 Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat.
Almost everything you're saying is wrong. 1. Flash can't stop Jangbi from getting intelligence because it had already happened, and regardless of rather jangbi went 2 gate robo -> obs or 2 gate dt he would have seen the barracks at around the same time. 2. Flash was behind from jangbi killing so many of his scvs. Halting production entirely and making factory / building new mech units is an entire 80 seconds for factory and 30 seconds before first vultures pop and at least 80+100 before mines / speed finish. Are you seriously saying that having minimal to no army production (he only had 1 factory) for 3 whole minutes wouldn't create an army disparity? A dragoon takes 50 seconds, a zealot takes 40 seconds, thats a whole 3 - 5 rounds of units, even if jangbi didn't make more gateways and stuck to 2 (which he didn't, he added to 4) thats a whole 20 pop which at that point in the game is a big deal. And there was no way of Flash knowing rather Jangbi is making DT's or Dragoon / zealots. He can't scout with units because jangbi is already controlling the outside of his base with DT's and he can't scan for this exact reason. 3. Flash HAS to attacks with the bio-mech because defending with a biomech when enemy has templar tech is just stupid on every level. Remember that Jangbi has vision of flash's army moving out if it does. If they both swap over to macro mode jangbi has a huge tech advantage and flash is likely to lose any ways due to his econ build being punished, and has almost no way to establish a third because you can't defend with bio mech against storm. You are the stubborn one in suggesting that Flash has to swap over his tech by canceling buildings dude, if you had this criticism against other people then almost every progamer is guilty of not canceling buildings when they see they aren't necessary, EXCEPT FLASH, flash is one of the only progamers that cancel tech / production / defense buildings when he deems it unnecessary from scouting. And again unless you think you know better than both Flash and Jangbi combined who have 14 gold / silvers combined, 5 of which are OSL medals (Jangbi said in interview that when he scouted the barracks he knew it was over), try to look at it from the player's point of view instead of the observer's point of view.
Really nice execution by Jangbi. Also in the Stork versus Horang2 match I felt weird when I saw the purple colored protoss. I realized protoss players rarely get purple.
Offtopic, but under results banner, everything is written in bold, in other words, everything except winners are not italic. So I can't distinguish who's the winner in the match-ups. I use Firefox but when I try Internet Explorer, it is as opposed to be. What should I do in the Firefox settings? Thanks in advance.
Flash played okay that game. Flash committed to a bio-mech push that would've killed Jangbi because Jangbi's nat hasn't kicked in yet (You can see JB making a lot more gates than usual). What killed Flash was Jangbi's DTs. Jangbi produced a lot of DTs to delay the push until storm is available. When he got storm, well you know the rest.
when i said jangbi didn't play well, i meant it literally. I never said he played badly. Just that 10/15 > 1rax CC. He did what was required of him (killing the SCVs). Nothing special. Cast storm on MnM. Ok, but it only worked out so well because Flash didn't move. Violet played better against Hiya, even though he lost.
Flash already knows this: no natural expansion from jangbi if it were a 1 gate or 2 gate expand, 6 goons at that time of factory's machine shop just finishing up, dt's. This means a natural expansion was NOT on the way yet for Jangbi, and there were definitely some kind of gateway unit variation all in happening.
No, there WAS. Jangbi was already expanding before trying to sneak 2 DTs into Flash's base. You didn't watch the game careful enough. And if Flash guessed it wrong it's his fault of course.
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god
Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning.
He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest?
How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So?
Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"?
Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation.
Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will.
Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat.
I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth.
From Jangbi's interview:
"You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won."
On May 23 2012 09:18 Release wrote: when i said jangbi didn't play well, i meant it literally. I never said he played badly. Just that 10/15 > 1rax CC. He did what was required of him (killing the SCVs). Nothing special. Cast storm on MnM. Ok, but it only worked out so well because Flash didn't move. Violet played better against Hiya, even though he lost.
The old Flash would have dodged those Storm by stimming the Marines forward, to snipe the HTs while tanking Zealots with Tanks in the back firing at the Dragoons. From the FPVODs, I can already tell that Flash's reaction time have gotten much slower. How can I tell? Well this is the first time, I was able to follow his train of thoughts completely and that has never occurred before.
On May 22 2012 23:34 Release wrote: Jangbi didn't play well. Flash played like shit. I don't know why Terrans still insist on 1rax CC in TvP. Take one look at sea and ...
You're an idiot.
Flash played great, Jangbi played great, and Jangbi had an advantage because of the builds, so he won.
A lesser P might fall to Flash's counterpush, Flash did well (splash-sniping a DT, making the correct decision given the situation) and made a decent bio push and was quick on all his scans. But Jangbi also did a SICK storm, used his DTs correctly to delay, and correctly went mass gates because he was on top of what Flash would do (basically had to do).
And let's not forget Jangbi's earlier harass with dancing goons attacking the bunker.
People are saying the game was decided by the builds, which is true only when the two players are of equal skill. To suggest it was "just" a BO win takes away from both Flash and Jangbi, who both played as well as they could given the builds they chose.
Go on, point out some things they did wrong other than "lol Flash is an idiot for insisting on the build that all T progamers seem to have decided is optimal in the matchup".
Well, Jangbi winning was nice. He did a lot of good things. Picking off scvs, thus forcing flash to pull more, keeping that push back with the threat of dts for a moment, perfect storm... :| but Flash? I've seen him do biomech builds like this before. It usually catches the toss's pants down because it's timing is faster than deep six. Of course, when you lose some scvs, have a finite number of scans while dts roam the field, oh, and by the way, your opponent went straight to templar tech, by the time you actually push, you're done. Pretty much played into Jangbi's hands. Risky build, not as sexy as deep six (or forGG's deep 7)
... It's just a goofy build, I've never liked it, even when he used it against Sangho (I think) years ago. It's a little faster than deep six, but it's so much weaker... A terran with the element of surprise (read: restricted scouting) and great control can beat both templar tech (see Classic vs Best, the first time he tried it [lost with deep six in another game]) AND reaver tech (see Kal vs ForGG). But his build? I'm sorry for the rant. I just love seeing the deep six, and seeing a cheap substitute for it will not be tolerated
I was feeling bad for Action, he needs Flash to lose and has to beat Bogus but... + Show Spoiler [SPL] +
No, there WAS. Jangbi was already expanding before trying to sneak 2 DTs into Flash's base. You didn't watch the game careful enough. And if Flash guessed it wrong it's his fault of course.
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god
Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning.
He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest?
How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So?
Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"?
Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation.
Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will.
Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat.
I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth.
From Jangbi's interview:
"You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won."
You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms.
On May 23 2012 14:09 alypse wrote: You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms.
Flash had 3 tanks, 1 factory, and no tech at that point, needing EBay immediately to stop dts from flooding in. Jangbi had 6 goons, 2 gateways, and templar tech at that point. Economy roughly even
If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god
Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning.
He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest?
How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So?
Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"?
Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation.
Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will.
Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat.
I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth.
From Jangbi's interview:
"You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won."
You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms.
My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled?
Your evidence: personal theorycrafting
On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote: If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
really disappointed in the level of these games, every1 won off 1 push and there didn't look like much fluidity to them at all... I guess the sc2 transition is really taking its toll. I am surprised so many people recommended flash v jangbi, it was over right from the start, flash cut so many scvs resulting in not being able to transition into anything at all.
I would say that Flash didn't seem so prepared because it looks like he was not even building to counter dts which is a follow up to the goon push, albeit Flash didn't see Jangbi's opening... but very unflash like.
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god
Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning.
He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest?
How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So?
Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"?
Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation.
Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will.
Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat.
I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth.
From Jangbi's interview:
"You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won."
You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms.
My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled?
Your evidence: personal theorycrafting
On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote: If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy
Based on your so-called "evidence", you have no more than what I have. And it's all theorycraft on a situation that you never know the outcome when it's not actually played out. And simply because there's more people agreeing on the same strategy doesn't mean it's always absolutely right. So you're saying bio vs DTs/storms are the best choice then? You still have zip to prove that. About your "evidence" of progamers' game sense, how many times did you see pros make mistakes? And while Flash is the best T in the world, his judgment (and sometimes stubbornness) have cost him quite a lot of games. Look at his games in the last grand finals. Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make.
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god
Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning.
He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest?
How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So?
Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"?
Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation.
Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will.
Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat.
I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth.
From Jangbi's interview:
"You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won."
You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms.
My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled?
Your evidence: personal theorycrafting
On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote: If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy
Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make.
I assumed you'd be one of those clueless theorycrafters blaming that loss on flash being stupid and not massing vultures off his 2 factories when he was vs'ing dragoon reaver. Even if he somehow holds the zealots he has a tank count of 1-2 vs a 3 base toss and a grand total of 2 factories (i.e. dead). I'm done with this thread anyway, there's clearly no convincing you as you seem to have only the most basic understanding of how the game works i.e. vults > zealots, wraiths > dropships, dt/storm > bio
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god
Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning.
He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest?
How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So?
Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"?
Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation.
Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will.
Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat.
I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth.
From Jangbi's interview:
"You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won."
You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms.
My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled?
Your evidence: personal theorycrafting
On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote: If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy
Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make.
I assumed you'd be one of those clueless theorycrafters blaming that loss on flash being stupid and not massing vultures off his 2 factories when he was vs'ing dragoon reaver. Even if he somehow holds the zealots he has a tank count of 1-2 vs a 3 base toss and a grand total of 2 factories (i.e. dead). I'm done with this thread anyway, there's clearly no convincing you as you seem to have only the most basic understanding of how the game works.
I'm afraid the clueless theorycrafter here is you, since that's not the purpose of using vultures in that game. Just 2 or 3 vultures lay mines in front of his nat would most probably prevent the fatal zealot stream into his base, causing the GG. The thing he needs is some mines, he doesn't need to mass vultures. But let's just stop at that. I also want to end the argument here, since you keep ignoring every facts I present and this will lead to nowhere.
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god
Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning.
He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest?
How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So?
Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"?
Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation.
Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will.
Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat.
I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth.
From Jangbi's interview:
"You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won."
You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms.
My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled?
Your evidence: personal theorycrafting
On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote: If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy
Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make.
I assumed you'd be one of those clueless theorycrafters blaming that loss on flash being stupid and not massing vultures off his 2 factories when he was vs'ing dragoon reaver. Even if he somehow holds the zealots he has a tank count of 1-2 vs a 3 base toss and a grand total of 2 factories (i.e. dead). I'm done with this thread anyway, there's clearly no convincing you as you seem to have only the most basic understanding of how the game works i.e. vults > zealots, wraiths > dropships, dt/storm > bio
I agree. Another way to put this would be that if Flash had cancelled his racks, he would have absolutely no units to pressure Jangbi, and Jangbi could have tech'ed to arbiters and taken 4 bases before Flash would have enough units to threaten him. And I'm not even talking about how late mech upgrades would have been.
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god
Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning.
He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest?
How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So?
Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"?
Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation.
Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will.
Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat.
I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth.
From Jangbi's interview:
"You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won."
You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms.
My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled?
Your evidence: personal theorycrafting
On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote: If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy
Based on your so-called "evidence", you have no more than what I have. And it's all theorycraft on a situation that you never know the outcome when it's not actually played out. And simply because there's more people agreeing on the same strategy doesn't mean it's always absolutely right. So you're saying bio vs DTs/storms are the best choice then? You still have zip to prove that. About your "evidence" of progamers' game sense, how many times did you see pros make mistakes? And while Flash is the best T in the world, his judgment (and sometimes stubbornness) have cost him quite a lot of games. Look at his games in the last grand finals. Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make.
Christ, it's as simple as this. Flash was too late into his build to cancel out of it into a mech one. You complaining that he was using bio mech to fight jangbi's build is like complaining that Jaedong didn't cancel his hatchery after he went 12 hatch against a 9 pool. The point is that he has to do what he can with the existing build because the alternative is even worse an option. Everybody knows that bio against storms is auto death, which is why flash had to win before storm finished, and he almost got it against all odds, look at the replay, storm was finished literally 10 seconds before flash's marines got stormed. Using your logic every single game where there is unscoutable tech / army composition the loser is entirely to blame. Namely, 90% of all ZvZ's where overlords don't scout each other, all TvP's where the protoss won with reaver / shuttle or 2 base carrier, all games involving stealth units or rushes or timing attacks. The examples you gave criticizing Flash going dropship play vs Fantasy is just hilarious. Flash's only chance back into the game was the doom drop in fantasy's main using drop ships and he succeeded, he only lost because Fantasy's huge early-mid lead and banked resources allowed him to go mass wraiths.
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god
Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning.
He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest?
How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So?
Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"?
Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation.
Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will.
Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat.
I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth.
From Jangbi's interview:
"You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won."
You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms.
My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled?
Your evidence: personal theorycrafting
On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote: If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy
Based on your so-called "evidence", you have no more than what I have. And it's all theorycraft on a situation that you never know the outcome when it's not actually played out. And simply because there's more people agreeing on the same strategy doesn't mean it's always absolutely right. So you're saying bio vs DTs/storms are the best choice then? You still have zip to prove that. About your "evidence" of progamers' game sense, how many times did you see pros make mistakes? And while Flash is the best T in the world, his judgment (and sometimes stubbornness) have cost him quite a lot of games. Look at his games in the last grand finals. Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make.
Christ, it's as simple as this. Flash was too late into his build to cancel out of it into a mech one. You complaining that he was using bio mech to fight jangbi's build is like complaining that Jaedong didn't cancel his hatchery after he went 12 hatch against a 9 pool. The point is that he has to do what he can with the existing build because the alternative is even worse an option. Everybody knows that bio against storms is auto death, which is why flash had to win before storm finished, and he almost got it against all odds, look at the replay, storm was finished literally 10 seconds before flash's marines got stormed. Using your logic every single game where there is unscoutable tech / army composition the loser is entirely to blame. Namely, 90% of all ZvZ's where overlords don't scout each other, all TvP's where the protoss won with reaver / shuttle or 2 base carrier, all games involving stealth units or rushes or timing attacks. The examples you gave criticizing Flash going dropship play vs Fantasy is just hilarious. Flash's only chance back into the game was the doom drop in fantasy's main using drop ships and he succeeded, he only lost because Fantasy's huge early-mid lead and banked resources allowed him to go mass wraiths.
Another assumption... About that game vs Fanta, Flash had all the choice and capabilities to go for a full air force. Saying that the only chance for Flash is to use dropships is really wrong. And he could go for the air-based played play from the beginning, but somehow, IIRC, after a few valks he began to mass dropships. I don't know if it's misjudgment or stubbornness, but it's really his own fault. How many games did you watch in which dropships prevail against wraith/valks? I watched a lot TvT and I saw none.
About this OSL game, I'm done with it. I don't want to repeat myself again and again.
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god
Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning.
He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest?
How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So?
Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"?
Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation.
Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will.
Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat.
I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth.
From Jangbi's interview:
"You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won."
You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms.
My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled?
Your evidence: personal theorycrafting
On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote: If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy
Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make.
I assumed you'd be one of those clueless theorycrafters blaming that loss on flash being stupid and not massing vultures off his 2 factories when he was vs'ing dragoon reaver. Even if he somehow holds the zealots he has a tank count of 1-2 vs a 3 base toss and a grand total of 2 factories (i.e. dead). I'm done with this thread anyway, there's clearly no convincing you as you seem to have only the most basic understanding of how the game works.
I'm afraid the clueless theorycrafter here is you, since that's not the purpose of using vultures in that game. Just 2 or 3 vultures lay mines in front of his nat would most probably prevent the fatal zealot stream into his base, causing the GG. The thing he needs is some mines, he doesn't need to mass vultures. But let's just stop at that. I also want to end the argument here, since you keep ignoring every facts I present and this will lead to nowhere.
Your answer to everything seems to be get really behind, get vultures, mine up the nat and hope your opponent is D-
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god
Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning.
He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest?
How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So?
Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"?
Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation.
Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will.
Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat.
I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth.
From Jangbi's interview:
"You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won."
You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms.
My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled?
Your evidence: personal theorycrafting
On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote: If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy
Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make.
I assumed you'd be one of those clueless theorycrafters blaming that loss on flash being stupid and not massing vultures off his 2 factories when he was vs'ing dragoon reaver. Even if he somehow holds the zealots he has a tank count of 1-2 vs a 3 base toss and a grand total of 2 factories (i.e. dead). I'm done with this thread anyway, there's clearly no convincing you as you seem to have only the most basic understanding of how the game works.
I'm afraid the clueless theorycrafter here is you, since that's not the purpose of using vultures in that game. Just 2 or 3 vultures lay mines in front of his nat would most probably prevent the fatal zealot stream into his base, causing the GG. The thing he needs is some mines, he doesn't need to mass vultures. But let's just stop at that. I also want to end the argument here, since you keep ignoring every facts I present and this will lead to nowhere.
Your answer to everything seems to be get really behind, get vultures, mine up the nat and hope your opponent is D-
And yours seems to be ignoring everything else other than your opinion. Not to mention the one playing here is Flash.
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god
Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning.
He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest?
How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So?
Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"?
Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation.
Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will.
Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat.
I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth.
From Jangbi's interview:
"You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won."
You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms.
My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled?
Your evidence: personal theorycrafting
On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote: If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy
Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make.
I assumed you'd be one of those clueless theorycrafters blaming that loss on flash being stupid and not massing vultures off his 2 factories when he was vs'ing dragoon reaver. Even if he somehow holds the zealots he has a tank count of 1-2 vs a 3 base toss and a grand total of 2 factories (i.e. dead). I'm done with this thread anyway, there's clearly no convincing you as you seem to have only the most basic understanding of how the game works.
I'm afraid the clueless theorycrafter here is you, since that's not the purpose of using vultures in that game. Just 2 or 3 vultures lay mines in front of his nat would most probably prevent the fatal zealot stream into his base, causing the GG. The thing he needs is some mines, he doesn't need to mass vultures. But let's just stop at that. I also want to end the argument here, since you keep ignoring every facts I present and this will lead to nowhere.
Your answer to everything seems to be get really behind, get vultures, mine up the nat and hope your opponent is D-
And yours seems to be ignoring everything else other than your opinion. Not to mention the one playing here is Flash.
... and your ignoring the opinions of two progamers, flash and jangbi.
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god
Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning.
He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest?
How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So?
Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"?
Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation.
Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will.
Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat.
I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth.
From Jangbi's interview:
"You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won."
You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms.
My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled?
Your evidence: personal theorycrafting
On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote: If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy
Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make.
I assumed you'd be one of those clueless theorycrafters blaming that loss on flash being stupid and not massing vultures off his 2 factories when he was vs'ing dragoon reaver. Even if he somehow holds the zealots he has a tank count of 1-2 vs a 3 base toss and a grand total of 2 factories (i.e. dead). I'm done with this thread anyway, there's clearly no convincing you as you seem to have only the most basic understanding of how the game works.
I'm afraid the clueless theorycrafter here is you, since that's not the purpose of using vultures in that game. Just 2 or 3 vultures lay mines in front of his nat would most probably prevent the fatal zealot stream into his base, causing the GG. The thing he needs is some mines, he doesn't need to mass vultures. But let's just stop at that. I also want to end the argument here, since you keep ignoring every facts I present and this will lead to nowhere.
Your answer to everything seems to be get really behind, get vultures, mine up the nat and hope your opponent is D-
And yours seems to be ignoring everything else other than your opinion. Not to mention the one playing here is Flash.
You're the one saying what Flash did was wrong. Also I'm listening to everyone else's opinion (Turbovolver, Caihead, Endy and others), the only one in disagreement is yours.
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god
Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning.
He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest?
How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So?
Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"?
Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation.
Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will.
Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat.
I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth.
From Jangbi's interview:
"You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won."
You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms.
My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled?
Your evidence: personal theorycrafting
On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote: If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy
Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make.
I assumed you'd be one of those clueless theorycrafters blaming that loss on flash being stupid and not massing vultures off his 2 factories when he was vs'ing dragoon reaver. Even if he somehow holds the zealots he has a tank count of 1-2 vs a 3 base toss and a grand total of 2 factories (i.e. dead). I'm done with this thread anyway, there's clearly no convincing you as you seem to have only the most basic understanding of how the game works.
I'm afraid the clueless theorycrafter here is you, since that's not the purpose of using vultures in that game. Just 2 or 3 vultures lay mines in front of his nat would most probably prevent the fatal zealot stream into his base, causing the GG. The thing he needs is some mines, he doesn't need to mass vultures. But let's just stop at that. I also want to end the argument here, since you keep ignoring every facts I present and this will lead to nowhere.
Your answer to everything seems to be get really behind, get vultures, mine up the nat and hope your opponent is D-
And yours seems to be ignoring everything else other than your opinion. Not to mention the one playing here is Flash.
You're the one saying what Flash did was wrong. Also I'm listening to everyone else's opinion (Turbovolver, Caihead, Endy and others), the only one in disagreement is yours.
.... What I meant was it's Flash defending if he did choose not to commit to bio. And I have seen several times in this forum alone when not everybody has the same opinion; when few disagree with the majority.
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god
Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning.
He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest?
How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So?
Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"?
Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation.
Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will.
Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat.
I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth.
From Jangbi's interview:
"You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won."
You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms.
My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled?
Your evidence: personal theorycrafting
On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote: If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy
Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make.
I assumed you'd be one of those clueless theorycrafters blaming that loss on flash being stupid and not massing vultures off his 2 factories when he was vs'ing dragoon reaver. Even if he somehow holds the zealots he has a tank count of 1-2 vs a 3 base toss and a grand total of 2 factories (i.e. dead). I'm done with this thread anyway, there's clearly no convincing you as you seem to have only the most basic understanding of how the game works.
I'm afraid the clueless theorycrafter here is you, since that's not the purpose of using vultures in that game. Just 2 or 3 vultures lay mines in front of his nat would most probably prevent the fatal zealot stream into his base, causing the GG. The thing he needs is some mines, he doesn't need to mass vultures. But let's just stop at that. I also want to end the argument here, since you keep ignoring every facts I present and this will lead to nowhere.
Your answer to everything seems to be get really behind, get vultures, mine up the nat and hope your opponent is D-
And yours seems to be ignoring everything else other than your opinion. Not to mention the one playing here is Flash.
... and your ignoring the opinions of two progamers, flash and jangbi.
I don't even know what to say about this. You're just arguing for the sake of argue, not to get to the point....
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god
Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning.
He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest?
How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So?
Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"?
Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation.
Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will.
Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat.
I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth.
From Jangbi's interview:
"You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won."
You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms.
My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled?
Your evidence: personal theorycrafting
On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote: If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy
Based on your so-called "evidence", you have no more than what I have. And it's all theorycraft on a situation that you never know the outcome when it's not actually played out. And simply because there's more people agreeing on the same strategy doesn't mean it's always absolutely right. So you're saying bio vs DTs/storms are the best choice then? You still have zip to prove that. About your "evidence" of progamers' game sense, how many times did you see pros make mistakes? And while Flash is the best T in the world, his judgment (and sometimes stubbornness) have cost him quite a lot of games. Look at his games in the last grand finals. Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make.
Christ, it's as simple as this. Flash was too late into his build to cancel out of it into a mech one. You complaining that he was using bio mech to fight jangbi's build is like complaining that Jaedong didn't cancel his hatchery after he went 12 hatch against a 9 pool. The point is that he has to do what he can with the existing build because the alternative is even worse an option. Everybody knows that bio against storms is auto death, which is why flash had to win before storm finished, and he almost got it against all odds, look at the replay, storm was finished literally 10 seconds before flash's marines got stormed. Using your logic every single game where there is unscoutable tech / army composition the loser is entirely to blame. Namely, 90% of all ZvZ's where overlords don't scout each other, all TvP's where the protoss won with reaver / shuttle or 2 base carrier, all games involving stealth units or rushes or timing attacks. The examples you gave criticizing Flash going dropship play vs Fantasy is just hilarious. Flash's only chance back into the game was the doom drop in fantasy's main using drop ships and he succeeded, he only lost because Fantasy's huge early-mid lead and banked resources allowed him to go mass wraiths.
Another assumption... About that game vs Fanta, Flash had all the choice and capabilities to go for a full air force. Saying that the only chance for Flash is to use dropships is really wrong. And he could go for the air-based played play from the beginning, but somehow, IIRC, after a few valks he began to mass dropships. I don't know if it's misjudgment or stubbornness, but it's really his own fault. How many games did you watch in which dropships prevail against wraith/valks? I watched a lot TvT and I saw none.
About this OSL game, I'm done with it. I don't want to repeat myself again and again.
Go back and watch the game vs Fantasy alright. Flash was way behind and getting contained by a ground force past the middle two expansions (9 and 3 o'clock), he didn't have the time or resources to air switch. Mass dropship was the correct judgement against a massive ground force with minimal air, and the doom drop was fucking genius. Fantasy had zero incentives of going mass air before the doom drop because he was already sieging up Flash's bases and has a superior economy / factory count. Fantasy's response of mass wraiths after losing his factories while still having ground forces containing flash was also the correct judgement.
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god
Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning.
He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest?
How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So?
Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"?
Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation.
Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will.
Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat.
I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth.
From Jangbi's interview:
"You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won."
You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms.
My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled?
Your evidence: personal theorycrafting
On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote: If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy
Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make.
I assumed you'd be one of those clueless theorycrafters blaming that loss on flash being stupid and not massing vultures off his 2 factories when he was vs'ing dragoon reaver. Even if he somehow holds the zealots he has a tank count of 1-2 vs a 3 base toss and a grand total of 2 factories (i.e. dead). I'm done with this thread anyway, there's clearly no convincing you as you seem to have only the most basic understanding of how the game works.
I'm afraid the clueless theorycrafter here is you, since that's not the purpose of using vultures in that game. Just 2 or 3 vultures lay mines in front of his nat would most probably prevent the fatal zealot stream into his base, causing the GG. The thing he needs is some mines, he doesn't need to mass vultures. But let's just stop at that. I also want to end the argument here, since you keep ignoring every facts I present and this will lead to nowhere.
Your answer to everything seems to be get really behind, get vultures, mine up the nat and hope your opponent is D-
And yours seems to be ignoring everything else other than your opinion. Not to mention the one playing here is Flash.
You're the one saying what Flash did was wrong. Also I'm listening to everyone else's opinion (Turbovolver, Caihead, Endy and others), the only one in disagreement is yours.
.... What I meant was it's Flash defending if he did choose not to commit to bio. And I have seen several times in this forum alone when not everybody has the same opinion; when few disagree with the majority.
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god
Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning.
He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest?
How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So?
Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"?
Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation.
Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will.
Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat.
I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth.
From Jangbi's interview:
"You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won."
You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms.
My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled?
Your evidence: personal theorycrafting
On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote: If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy
Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make.
I assumed you'd be one of those clueless theorycrafters blaming that loss on flash being stupid and not massing vultures off his 2 factories when he was vs'ing dragoon reaver. Even if he somehow holds the zealots he has a tank count of 1-2 vs a 3 base toss and a grand total of 2 factories (i.e. dead). I'm done with this thread anyway, there's clearly no convincing you as you seem to have only the most basic understanding of how the game works.
I'm afraid the clueless theorycrafter here is you, since that's not the purpose of using vultures in that game. Just 2 or 3 vultures lay mines in front of his nat would most probably prevent the fatal zealot stream into his base, causing the GG. The thing he needs is some mines, he doesn't need to mass vultures. But let's just stop at that. I also want to end the argument here, since you keep ignoring every facts I present and this will lead to nowhere.
Your answer to everything seems to be get really behind, get vultures, mine up the nat and hope your opponent is D-
And yours seems to be ignoring everything else other than your opinion. Not to mention the one playing here is Flash.
... and your ignoring the opinions of two progamers, flash and jangbi.
I don't even know what to say about this. You're just arguing for the sake of argue, not to get to the point....
I'm arguing because Jangbi was right, and that his opinion is proven by logical induction (his experience and logical thought process concluded that he already won when he saw the barracks because he understands PvT from the protoss perspective and knows the terran can't beat his build or transition out of it) as well as empirical evidence (he won). Flash's opinion also matters because he's consistently been the top 1-2 terran in the world as well as having top 1-3 TvP as well as having personal stake in winning the match. Flash's opinion isn't wrong just because he lost a game where he had nothing but bad luck (scouting jangbi last resulting in it being denied, going bio to counter mass dragoons and having jangbi go templar tech) and disadvantages (losing scvs with an econ build, having no time or resources to transition out of his build).
I'm trying to invoke professional (and it is professional, these people are professional gamers at the top of the food chain) credibility to add to my argument. What is your point? I'm backing my opinion up with facts, statistics, build analysis, and showing why from the player's perspective these choices make sense. What you've done is insist on a build switch which is completely illogical.
How about this Alypse. Can you try to find an instance where any player, any player at all, canceled his production / tech structures entirely to start another build at a much delayed timing? Because there are hundreds of instances where players have WON with a weaker or non optimal build that they kept going even after being scouted / countered because they can't transition out of it. Show me something in the contrary.
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god
Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning.
He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest?
How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So?
Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"?
Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation.
Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will.
Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat.
I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth.
From Jangbi's interview:
"You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won."
You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms.
My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled?
Your evidence: personal theorycrafting
On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote: If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy
Based on your so-called "evidence", you have no more than what I have. And it's all theorycraft on a situation that you never know the outcome when it's not actually played out. And simply because there's more people agreeing on the same strategy doesn't mean it's always absolutely right. So you're saying bio vs DTs/storms are the best choice then? You still have zip to prove that. About your "evidence" of progamers' game sense, how many times did you see pros make mistakes? And while Flash is the best T in the world, his judgment (and sometimes stubbornness) have cost him quite a lot of games. Look at his games in the last grand finals. Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make.
Christ, it's as simple as this. Flash was too late into his build to cancel out of it into a mech one. You complaining that he was using bio mech to fight jangbi's build is like complaining that Jaedong didn't cancel his hatchery after he went 12 hatch against a 9 pool. The point is that he has to do what he can with the existing build because the alternative is even worse an option. Everybody knows that bio against storms is auto death, which is why flash had to win before storm finished, and he almost got it against all odds, look at the replay, storm was finished literally 10 seconds before flash's marines got stormed. Using your logic every single game where there is unscoutable tech / army composition the loser is entirely to blame. Namely, 90% of all ZvZ's where overlords don't scout each other, all TvP's where the protoss won with reaver / shuttle or 2 base carrier, all games involving stealth units or rushes or timing attacks. The examples you gave criticizing Flash going dropship play vs Fantasy is just hilarious. Flash's only chance back into the game was the doom drop in fantasy's main using drop ships and he succeeded, he only lost because Fantasy's huge early-mid lead and banked resources allowed him to go mass wraiths.
Another assumption... About that game vs Fanta, Flash had all the choice and capabilities to go for a full air force. Saying that the only chance for Flash is to use dropships is really wrong. And he could go for the air-based played play from the beginning, but somehow, IIRC, after a few valks he began to mass dropships. I don't know if it's misjudgment or stubbornness, but it's really his own fault. How many games did you watch in which dropships prevail against wraith/valks? I watched a lot TvT and I saw none.
About this OSL game, I'm done with it. I don't want to repeat myself again and again.
Go back and watch the game vs Fantasy alright. Flash was way behind and getting contained by a ground force past the middle two expansions (9 and 3 o'clock), he didn't have the time or resources to air switch. Mass dropship was the correct judgement against a massive ground force with minimal air, and the doom drop was fucking genius. Fantasy had zero incentives of going mass air before the doom drop because he was already sieging up Flash's bases and has a superior economy / factory count. Fantasy's response of mass wraiths after losing his factories while still having ground forces containing flash was also the correct judgement.
I did watch that game several times since it's an exciting game. If you do the same you would have noticed that Flash went for dropships LONG before Fanta took 3 and 9. He intended to go dropships very early. Probably that's why he was being contained that much and did not find a way to break it, he was being too stubborn and decided to stick to dropships. Had he went for air, he would have had a lot of versatility, being able to break the contain etc... How many goliaths did you see that Fanta had at his contain? 3 or 4. He was concentrating on tanks and harrasing vultures. And that doom drop was amazing indeed, but the problem is that fanta has banked enough money by that time, and he made the right decision of massing wraiths; also he learned to protect his base from Flash's ships. You know the rest.
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god
Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning.
He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest?
How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So?
Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"?
Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation.
Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will.
Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat.
I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth.
From Jangbi's interview:
"You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won."
You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms.
My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled?
Your evidence: personal theorycrafting
On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote: If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy
Based on your so-called "evidence", you have no more than what I have. And it's all theorycraft on a situation that you never know the outcome when it's not actually played out. And simply because there's more people agreeing on the same strategy doesn't mean it's always absolutely right. So you're saying bio vs DTs/storms are the best choice then? You still have zip to prove that. About your "evidence" of progamers' game sense, how many times did you see pros make mistakes? And while Flash is the best T in the world, his judgment (and sometimes stubbornness) have cost him quite a lot of games. Look at his games in the last grand finals. Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make.
Christ, it's as simple as this. Flash was too late into his build to cancel out of it into a mech one. You complaining that he was using bio mech to fight jangbi's build is like complaining that Jaedong didn't cancel his hatchery after he went 12 hatch against a 9 pool. The point is that he has to do what he can with the existing build because the alternative is even worse an option. Everybody knows that bio against storms is auto death, which is why flash had to win before storm finished, and he almost got it against all odds, look at the replay, storm was finished literally 10 seconds before flash's marines got stormed. Using your logic every single game where there is unscoutable tech / army composition the loser is entirely to blame. Namely, 90% of all ZvZ's where overlords don't scout each other, all TvP's where the protoss won with reaver / shuttle or 2 base carrier, all games involving stealth units or rushes or timing attacks. The examples you gave criticizing Flash going dropship play vs Fantasy is just hilarious. Flash's only chance back into the game was the doom drop in fantasy's main using drop ships and he succeeded, he only lost because Fantasy's huge early-mid lead and banked resources allowed him to go mass wraiths.
Another assumption... About that game vs Fanta, Flash had all the choice and capabilities to go for a full air force. Saying that the only chance for Flash is to use dropships is really wrong. And he could go for the air-based played play from the beginning, but somehow, IIRC, after a few valks he began to mass dropships. I don't know if it's misjudgment or stubbornness, but it's really his own fault. How many games did you watch in which dropships prevail against wraith/valks? I watched a lot TvT and I saw none.
About this OSL game, I'm done with it. I don't want to repeat myself again and again.
Go back and watch the game vs Fantasy alright. Flash was way behind and getting contained by a ground force past the middle two expansions (9 and 3 o'clock), he didn't have the time or resources to air switch. Mass dropship was the correct judgement against a massive ground force with minimal air, and the doom drop was fucking genius. Fantasy had zero incentives of going mass air before the doom drop because he was already sieging up Flash's bases and has a superior economy / factory count. Fantasy's response of mass wraiths after losing his factories while still having ground forces containing flash was also the correct judgement.
I did watch that game several times since it's an exciting game. If you do the same you would have noticed that Flash went for dropships LONG before Fanta took 3 and 9. He intended to go dropships very early. Probably that's why he was being contained that much and did not find a way to break it, he was being too stubborn and decided to stick to dropships. Had he went for air, he would have had a lot of versatility, being able to break the contain etc... How many goliaths did you see that Fanta had at his contain? 3 or 4. He was concentrating on tanks and harrasing vultures. And that doom drop was amazing indeed, but the problem is that fanta has banked enough money by that time, and he made the right decision of massing wraiths; also he learned to protect his base from Flash's ships. You know the rest.
It's not being "stubborn" to continue a build even though it's sub-optimal when the alternative is even worse. There's a reason why when a player proxies, or rushes, or does a timing attack and gets it scouted they don't cancel the structures. It's because the alternative is even worse an option.
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god
Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning.
He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest?
How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So?
Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"?
Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation.
Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will.
Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat.
I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth.
From Jangbi's interview:
"You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won."
You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms.
My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled?
Your evidence: personal theorycrafting
On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote: If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy
Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make.
I assumed you'd be one of those clueless theorycrafters blaming that loss on flash being stupid and not massing vultures off his 2 factories when he was vs'ing dragoon reaver. Even if he somehow holds the zealots he has a tank count of 1-2 vs a 3 base toss and a grand total of 2 factories (i.e. dead). I'm done with this thread anyway, there's clearly no convincing you as you seem to have only the most basic understanding of how the game works.
I'm afraid the clueless theorycrafter here is you, since that's not the purpose of using vultures in that game. Just 2 or 3 vultures lay mines in front of his nat would most probably prevent the fatal zealot stream into his base, causing the GG. The thing he needs is some mines, he doesn't need to mass vultures. But let's just stop at that. I also want to end the argument here, since you keep ignoring every facts I present and this will lead to nowhere.
Your answer to everything seems to be get really behind, get vultures, mine up the nat and hope your opponent is D-
And yours seems to be ignoring everything else other than your opinion. Not to mention the one playing here is Flash.
You're the one saying what Flash did was wrong. Also I'm listening to everyone else's opinion (Turbovolver, Caihead, Endy and others), the only one in disagreement is yours.
.... What I meant was it's Flash defending if he did choose not to commit to bio. And I have seen several times in this forum alone when not everybody has the same opinion; when few disagree with the majority.
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god
Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning.
He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest?
How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So?
Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"?
Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation.
Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will.
Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat.
I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth.
From Jangbi's interview:
"You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won."
You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms.
My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled?
Your evidence: personal theorycrafting
On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote: If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy
Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make.
I assumed you'd be one of those clueless theorycrafters blaming that loss on flash being stupid and not massing vultures off his 2 factories when he was vs'ing dragoon reaver. Even if he somehow holds the zealots he has a tank count of 1-2 vs a 3 base toss and a grand total of 2 factories (i.e. dead). I'm done with this thread anyway, there's clearly no convincing you as you seem to have only the most basic understanding of how the game works.
I'm afraid the clueless theorycrafter here is you, since that's not the purpose of using vultures in that game. Just 2 or 3 vultures lay mines in front of his nat would most probably prevent the fatal zealot stream into his base, causing the GG. The thing he needs is some mines, he doesn't need to mass vultures. But let's just stop at that. I also want to end the argument here, since you keep ignoring every facts I present and this will lead to nowhere.
Your answer to everything seems to be get really behind, get vultures, mine up the nat and hope your opponent is D-
And yours seems to be ignoring everything else other than your opinion. Not to mention the one playing here is Flash.
... and your ignoring the opinions of two progamers, flash and jangbi.
I don't even know what to say about this. You're just arguing for the sake of argue, not to get to the point....
I'm arguing because Jangbi was right, and that his opinion is proven by logical induction (his experience and logical thought process concluded that he already won when he saw the barracks because he understands PvT from the protoss perspective and knows the terran can't beat his build or transition out of it) as well as empirical evidence (he won). Flash's opinion also matters because he's consistently been the top 1-2 terran in the world as well as having top 1-3 TvP as well as having personal stake in winning the match. Flash's opinion isn't wrong just because he lost a game where he had nothing but bad luck (scouting jangbi last resulting in it being denied, going bio to counter mass dragoons and having jangbi go templar tech) and disadvantages (losing scvs with an econ build, having no time or resources to transition out of his build).
I'm trying to invoke professional (and it is professional, these people are professional gamers at the top of the food chain) credibility to add to my argument. What is your point? I'm backing my opinion up with facts, statistics, build analysis, and showing why from the player's perspective these choices make sense. What you've done is insist on a build switch which is completely illogical.
How about this Alypse. Can you try to find an instance where any player, any player at all, canceled his production / tech structures entirely to start another build at a much delayed timing? Because there are hundreds of instances where players have WON with a weaker or non optimal build that they kept going even after being scouted / countered because they can't transition out of it. Show me something in the contrary.
Please, I am sure I can take everything you just said about logical induction and professional credibility to the side of my argument. I can just say that by Flash's experience and game sense and mechanics and the fact that he is the top T in the world and the consistent top 3 TvP player... so he would be completely fine should he chose the other way. Of course Jangbi could just say anything once he's won. All your facts, stats, analysis... make as much sense as mine do to me. The point is (I don't know how many times I have said this), there's nothing to prove that committing to bio is not the worst way for Flash. and I am suggesting that going for the other strategy would probably result in a higher chance of winning. Why? I explained it before, don't wanna waste my time write it down again.
I don't think I can find a situation like this when a T intends to do a switch the moment he saw the DTs.. But I remember a game between Kal and a T, where T went for bio right from the beginning, got a big advantage but still in the end got mauled by storms and DTs. The only scenario where bio works vs P is when T can deal the fatal blow to P right in the first time, and that goal can only be done when P has no knowledge of the strategy. (Turn vs Stats for example.)
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god
Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning.
He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest?
How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So?
Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"?
Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation.
Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will.
Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat.
I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth.
From Jangbi's interview:
"You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won."
You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms.
My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled?
Your evidence: personal theorycrafting
On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote: If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy
Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make.
I assumed you'd be one of those clueless theorycrafters blaming that loss on flash being stupid and not massing vultures off his 2 factories when he was vs'ing dragoon reaver. Even if he somehow holds the zealots he has a tank count of 1-2 vs a 3 base toss and a grand total of 2 factories (i.e. dead). I'm done with this thread anyway, there's clearly no convincing you as you seem to have only the most basic understanding of how the game works.
I'm afraid the clueless theorycrafter here is you, since that's not the purpose of using vultures in that game. Just 2 or 3 vultures lay mines in front of his nat would most probably prevent the fatal zealot stream into his base, causing the GG. The thing he needs is some mines, he doesn't need to mass vultures. But let's just stop at that. I also want to end the argument here, since you keep ignoring every facts I present and this will lead to nowhere.
Your answer to everything seems to be get really behind, get vultures, mine up the nat and hope your opponent is D-
And yours seems to be ignoring everything else other than your opinion. Not to mention the one playing here is Flash.
You're the one saying what Flash did was wrong. Also I'm listening to everyone else's opinion (Turbovolver, Caihead, Endy and others), the only one in disagreement is yours.
.... What I meant was it's Flash defending if he did choose not to commit to bio. And I have seen several times in this forum alone when not everybody has the same opinion; when few disagree with the majority.
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god
Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning.
He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest?
How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So?
Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"?
Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation.
Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will.
Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat.
I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth.
From Jangbi's interview:
"You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won."
You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms.
My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled?
Your evidence: personal theorycrafting
On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote: If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy
Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make.
I assumed you'd be one of those clueless theorycrafters blaming that loss on flash being stupid and not massing vultures off his 2 factories when he was vs'ing dragoon reaver. Even if he somehow holds the zealots he has a tank count of 1-2 vs a 3 base toss and a grand total of 2 factories (i.e. dead). I'm done with this thread anyway, there's clearly no convincing you as you seem to have only the most basic understanding of how the game works.
I'm afraid the clueless theorycrafter here is you, since that's not the purpose of using vultures in that game. Just 2 or 3 vultures lay mines in front of his nat would most probably prevent the fatal zealot stream into his base, causing the GG. The thing he needs is some mines, he doesn't need to mass vultures. But let's just stop at that. I also want to end the argument here, since you keep ignoring every facts I present and this will lead to nowhere.
Your answer to everything seems to be get really behind, get vultures, mine up the nat and hope your opponent is D-
And yours seems to be ignoring everything else other than your opinion. Not to mention the one playing here is Flash.
... and your ignoring the opinions of two progamers, flash and jangbi.
I don't even know what to say about this. You're just arguing for the sake of argue, not to get to the point....
I'm arguing because Jangbi was right, and that his opinion is proven by logical induction (his experience and logical thought process concluded that he already won when he saw the barracks because he understands PvT from the protoss perspective and knows the terran can't beat his build or transition out of it) as well as empirical evidence (he won). Flash's opinion also matters because he's consistently been the top 1-2 terran in the world as well as having top 1-3 TvP as well as having personal stake in winning the match. Flash's opinion isn't wrong just because he lost a game where he had nothing but bad luck (scouting jangbi last resulting in it being denied, going bio to counter mass dragoons and having jangbi go templar tech) and disadvantages (losing scvs with an econ build, having no time or resources to transition out of his build).
I'm trying to invoke professional (and it is professional, these people are professional gamers at the top of the food chain) credibility to add to my argument. What is your point? I'm backing my opinion up with facts, statistics, build analysis, and showing why from the player's perspective these choices make sense. What you've done is insist on a build switch which is completely illogical.
How about this Alypse. Can you try to find an instance where any player, any player at all, canceled his production / tech structures entirely to start another build at a much delayed timing? Because there are hundreds of instances where players have WON with a weaker or non optimal build that they kept going even after being scouted / countered because they can't transition out of it. Show me something in the contrary.
Please, I am sure I can take everything you just said about logical induction and professional credibility to the side of my argument. I can just say that by Flash's experience and game sense and mechanics and the fact that he is the top T in the world and the consistent top 3 TvP player... so he would be completely fine should he chose the other way. Of course Jangbi could just say anything once he's won. All your facts, stats, analysis... make as much sense as mine do to me. The point is (I don't know how many times I have said this), there's nothing to prove that committing to bio is not the worst way for Flash. and I am suggesting that going for the other strategy would probably result in a higher chance of winning. Why? I explained it before, don't wanna waste my time write it down again.
I don't think I can find a situation like this when a T intends to do a switch the moment he saw the DTs.. But I remember a game between Kal and a T, where T went for bio right from the beginning, got a big advantage but still in the end got mauled by storms and DTs. The only scenario where bio works vs P is when T can deal the fatal blow to P right in the first time, and that goal can only be done when P has no knowledge of the strategy. (Turn vs Stats for example.)
Yea, except you are ignoring something. Factual evidence and game mechanics. This is ridiculous. Flash can't just make any build work, neither can any player, it has to be planned and calculated. It's a calculated decision to continue with the bio mech push. No terran progamer would chose to cancel his barracks unless he was hoping for the protoss to just drop out of the game because he knows that the protoss would either out expand him while he defends for a push that never comes since the protoss has vision of his side of the field via DT's, or the protoss would just outright kill him while there is an absence of units. You can't just use the defense that your opinion makes sense to you when there's already an established answer to the problem because Broodwar is a game with defined mechanics and numeric values. Flash's highest chance of winning was with the bio mech push before storm finishes, he couldn't pull it off.
For example: If Jaedong chose to 12 hatch and scouts his opponent already went for a 9 pool judging from the zerglings walking across the field under his overlord. ZvZ being such an established match up with defined rules, his literally only acceptable option is to continue with his hatchery production and try to defend the 9 pool pulling drones, and with the additional larvae from his second hatchery for zerglings and try to stall into the mid game. It doesn't matter what kind of a player that Jaedong is, he can't just cancel his hatchery and make sunkens / evo chamber in his main knowing that he's behind on gas, tech, and zergling count and the opponent is free to expand at will and that his natural will be denied indefinitely. Every other option is so sub-optimal that it's not even considered as a viable strategy. Same thing here, what you are suggesting is not even considered a viable strategy because of the mathematics of the build.
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god
Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning.
He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest?
How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So?
Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"?
Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation.
Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will.
Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat.
I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth.
From Jangbi's interview:
"You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won."
You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms.
My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled?
Your evidence: personal theorycrafting
On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote: If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy
Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make.
I assumed you'd be one of those clueless theorycrafters blaming that loss on flash being stupid and not massing vultures off his 2 factories when he was vs'ing dragoon reaver. Even if he somehow holds the zealots he has a tank count of 1-2 vs a 3 base toss and a grand total of 2 factories (i.e. dead). I'm done with this thread anyway, there's clearly no convincing you as you seem to have only the most basic understanding of how the game works.
I'm afraid the clueless theorycrafter here is you, since that's not the purpose of using vultures in that game. Just 2 or 3 vultures lay mines in front of his nat would most probably prevent the fatal zealot stream into his base, causing the GG. The thing he needs is some mines, he doesn't need to mass vultures. But let's just stop at that. I also want to end the argument here, since you keep ignoring every facts I present and this will lead to nowhere.
Your answer to everything seems to be get really behind, get vultures, mine up the nat and hope your opponent is D-
And yours seems to be ignoring everything else other than your opinion. Not to mention the one playing here is Flash.
You're the one saying what Flash did was wrong. Also I'm listening to everyone else's opinion (Turbovolver, Caihead, Endy and others), the only one in disagreement is yours.
.... What I meant was it's Flash defending if he did choose not to commit to bio. And I have seen several times in this forum alone when not everybody has the same opinion; when few disagree with the majority.
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god
Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning.
He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest?
How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So?
Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"?
Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation.
Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will.
Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat.
I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth.
From Jangbi's interview:
"You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won."
You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms.
My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled?
Your evidence: personal theorycrafting
On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote: If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy
Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make.
I assumed you'd be one of those clueless theorycrafters blaming that loss on flash being stupid and not massing vultures off his 2 factories when he was vs'ing dragoon reaver. Even if he somehow holds the zealots he has a tank count of 1-2 vs a 3 base toss and a grand total of 2 factories (i.e. dead). I'm done with this thread anyway, there's clearly no convincing you as you seem to have only the most basic understanding of how the game works.
I'm afraid the clueless theorycrafter here is you, since that's not the purpose of using vultures in that game. Just 2 or 3 vultures lay mines in front of his nat would most probably prevent the fatal zealot stream into his base, causing the GG. The thing he needs is some mines, he doesn't need to mass vultures. But let's just stop at that. I also want to end the argument here, since you keep ignoring every facts I present and this will lead to nowhere.
Your answer to everything seems to be get really behind, get vultures, mine up the nat and hope your opponent is D-
And yours seems to be ignoring everything else other than your opinion. Not to mention the one playing here is Flash.
... and your ignoring the opinions of two progamers, flash and jangbi.
I don't even know what to say about this. You're just arguing for the sake of argue, not to get to the point....
I'm arguing because Jangbi was right, and that his opinion is proven by logical induction (his experience and logical thought process concluded that he already won when he saw the barracks because he understands PvT from the protoss perspective and knows the terran can't beat his build or transition out of it) as well as empirical evidence (he won). Flash's opinion also matters because he's consistently been the top 1-2 terran in the world as well as having top 1-3 TvP as well as having personal stake in winning the match. Flash's opinion isn't wrong just because he lost a game where he had nothing but bad luck (scouting jangbi last resulting in it being denied, going bio to counter mass dragoons and having jangbi go templar tech) and disadvantages (losing scvs with an econ build, having no time or resources to transition out of his build).
I'm trying to invoke professional (and it is professional, these people are professional gamers at the top of the food chain) credibility to add to my argument. What is your point? I'm backing my opinion up with facts, statistics, build analysis, and showing why from the player's perspective these choices make sense. What you've done is insist on a build switch which is completely illogical.
How about this Alypse. Can you try to find an instance where any player, any player at all, canceled his production / tech structures entirely to start another build at a much delayed timing? Because there are hundreds of instances where players have WON with a weaker or non optimal build that they kept going even after being scouted / countered because they can't transition out of it. Show me something in the contrary.
Please, I am sure I can take everything you just said about logical induction and professional credibility to the side of my argument. I can just say that by Flash's experience and game sense and mechanics and the fact that he is the top T in the world and the consistent top 3 TvP player... so he would be completely fine should he chose the other way. Of course Jangbi could just say anything once he's won. All your facts, stats, analysis... make as much sense as mine do to me. The point is (I don't know how many times I have said this), there's nothing to prove that committing to bio is not the worst way for Flash. and I am suggesting that going for the other strategy would probably result in a higher chance of winning. Why? I explained it before, don't wanna waste my time write it down again.
I don't think I can find a situation like this when a T intends to do a switch the moment he saw the DTs.. But I remember a game between Kal and a T, where T went for bio right from the beginning, got a big advantage but still in the end got mauled by storms and DTs. The only scenario where bio works vs P is when T can deal the fatal blow to P right in the first time, and that goal can only be done when P has no knowledge of the strategy. (Turn vs Stats for example.)
Yea, except you are ignoring something. Factual evidence and game mechanics. This is ridiculous. Flash can't just make any build work, neither can any player, it has to be planned and calculated. It's a calculated decision to continue with the bio mech push. No terran progamer would chose to cancel his barracks unless he was hoping for the protoss to just drop out of the game because he knows that the protoss would either out expand him while he defends for a push that never comes since the protoss has vision of his side of the field via DT's, or the protoss would just outright kill him while there is an absence of units. You can't just use the defense that your opinion makes sense to you when there's already an established answer to the problem because Broodwar is a game with defined mechanics and numeric values. Flash's highest chance of winning was with the bio mech push before storm finishes, he couldn't pull it off.
No it's not, Flash has the lowest chance of winning when commiting to the bio push. It just couldn't works when the opponent already had the knowledge of his intention and had several DTs on guard, plus you don't know is his storms are ready or not. I'm not even talking about the possibility that he will run out of scans even before reaching Jangbi's nat. Anyway it's suicidal for Flash to do so. About the potential all-in, I already discussed it before, and I won't say it again since it looks like you're in a loop.
I agree with what Jaedong would do in your example, but the problem is this is a different situation in a different match-up. The two cannot be compared to each other.
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god
Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning.
He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest?
How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So?
Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"?
Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation.
Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will.
Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat.
I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth.
From Jangbi's interview:
"You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won."
You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms.
My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled?
Your evidence: personal theorycrafting
On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote: If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy
Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make.
I assumed you'd be one of those clueless theorycrafters blaming that loss on flash being stupid and not massing vultures off his 2 factories when he was vs'ing dragoon reaver. Even if he somehow holds the zealots he has a tank count of 1-2 vs a 3 base toss and a grand total of 2 factories (i.e. dead). I'm done with this thread anyway, there's clearly no convincing you as you seem to have only the most basic understanding of how the game works.
I'm afraid the clueless theorycrafter here is you, since that's not the purpose of using vultures in that game. Just 2 or 3 vultures lay mines in front of his nat would most probably prevent the fatal zealot stream into his base, causing the GG. The thing he needs is some mines, he doesn't need to mass vultures. But let's just stop at that. I also want to end the argument here, since you keep ignoring every facts I present and this will lead to nowhere.
Your answer to everything seems to be get really behind, get vultures, mine up the nat and hope your opponent is D-
And yours seems to be ignoring everything else other than your opinion. Not to mention the one playing here is Flash.
You're the one saying what Flash did was wrong. Also I'm listening to everyone else's opinion (Turbovolver, Caihead, Endy and others), the only one in disagreement is yours.
.... What I meant was it's Flash defending if he did choose not to commit to bio. And I have seen several times in this forum alone when not everybody has the same opinion; when few disagree with the majority.
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god
Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning.
He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest?
How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So?
Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"?
Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation.
Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will.
Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat.
I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth.
From Jangbi's interview:
"You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won."
You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms.
My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled?
Your evidence: personal theorycrafting
On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote: If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy
Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make.
I assumed you'd be one of those clueless theorycrafters blaming that loss on flash being stupid and not massing vultures off his 2 factories when he was vs'ing dragoon reaver. Even if he somehow holds the zealots he has a tank count of 1-2 vs a 3 base toss and a grand total of 2 factories (i.e. dead). I'm done with this thread anyway, there's clearly no convincing you as you seem to have only the most basic understanding of how the game works.
I'm afraid the clueless theorycrafter here is you, since that's not the purpose of using vultures in that game. Just 2 or 3 vultures lay mines in front of his nat would most probably prevent the fatal zealot stream into his base, causing the GG. The thing he needs is some mines, he doesn't need to mass vultures. But let's just stop at that. I also want to end the argument here, since you keep ignoring every facts I present and this will lead to nowhere.
Your answer to everything seems to be get really behind, get vultures, mine up the nat and hope your opponent is D-
And yours seems to be ignoring everything else other than your opinion. Not to mention the one playing here is Flash.
... and your ignoring the opinions of two progamers, flash and jangbi.
I don't even know what to say about this. You're just arguing for the sake of argue, not to get to the point....
I'm arguing because Jangbi was right, and that his opinion is proven by logical induction (his experience and logical thought process concluded that he already won when he saw the barracks because he understands PvT from the protoss perspective and knows the terran can't beat his build or transition out of it) as well as empirical evidence (he won). Flash's opinion also matters because he's consistently been the top 1-2 terran in the world as well as having top 1-3 TvP as well as having personal stake in winning the match. Flash's opinion isn't wrong just because he lost a game where he had nothing but bad luck (scouting jangbi last resulting in it being denied, going bio to counter mass dragoons and having jangbi go templar tech) and disadvantages (losing scvs with an econ build, having no time or resources to transition out of his build).
I'm trying to invoke professional (and it is professional, these people are professional gamers at the top of the food chain) credibility to add to my argument. What is your point? I'm backing my opinion up with facts, statistics, build analysis, and showing why from the player's perspective these choices make sense. What you've done is insist on a build switch which is completely illogical.
How about this Alypse. Can you try to find an instance where any player, any player at all, canceled his production / tech structures entirely to start another build at a much delayed timing? Because there are hundreds of instances where players have WON with a weaker or non optimal build that they kept going even after being scouted / countered because they can't transition out of it. Show me something in the contrary.
Please, I am sure I can take everything you just said about logical induction and professional credibility to the side of my argument. I can just say that by Flash's experience and game sense and mechanics and the fact that he is the top T in the world and the consistent top 3 TvP player... so he would be completely fine should he chose the other way. Of course Jangbi could just say anything once he's won. All your facts, stats, analysis... make as much sense as mine do to me. The point is (I don't know how many times I have said this), there's nothing to prove that committing to bio is not the worst way for Flash. and I am suggesting that going for the other strategy would probably result in a higher chance of winning. Why? I explained it before, don't wanna waste my time write it down again.
I don't think I can find a situation like this when a T intends to do a switch the moment he saw the DTs.. But I remember a game between Kal and a T, where T went for bio right from the beginning, got a big advantage but still in the end got mauled by storms and DTs. The only scenario where bio works vs P is when T can deal the fatal blow to P right in the first time, and that goal can only be done when P has no knowledge of the strategy. (Turn vs Stats for example.)
Yea, except you are ignoring something. Factual evidence and game mechanics. This is ridiculous. Flash can't just make any build work, neither can any player, it has to be planned and calculated. It's a calculated decision to continue with the bio mech push. No terran progamer would chose to cancel his barracks unless he was hoping for the protoss to just drop out of the game because he knows that the protoss would either out expand him while he defends for a push that never comes since the protoss has vision of his side of the field via DT's, or the protoss would just outright kill him while there is an absence of units. You can't just use the defense that your opinion makes sense to you when there's already an established answer to the problem because Broodwar is a game with defined mechanics and numeric values. Flash's highest chance of winning was with the bio mech push before storm finishes, he couldn't pull it off.
No it's not, Flash has the lowest chance of winning when commiting to the bio push. It just couldn't works when the opponent already had the knowledge of his intention and had several DTs on guard, plus you don't know is his storms are ready or not. I'm not even talking about the possibility that he will run out of scans even before reaching Jangbi's nat. Anyway it's suicidal for Flash to do so. About the potential all-in, I already discussed it before, and I won't say it again since it looks like you're in a loop.
So you don't think progamers study furiously the timing windows for unit production / research? Storms take a definite amount of time to research and HT's take a definite amount of time to produce and save up enough energy to cast storm. It's even more suicidal to go for a mech switch. Show me one game where a terran does what you are suggesting.
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god
Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning.
He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest?
How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So?
Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"?
Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation.
Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will.
Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat.
I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth.
From Jangbi's interview:
"You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won."
You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms.
My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled?
Your evidence: personal theorycrafting
On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote: If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy
Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make.
I assumed you'd be one of those clueless theorycrafters blaming that loss on flash being stupid and not massing vultures off his 2 factories when he was vs'ing dragoon reaver. Even if he somehow holds the zealots he has a tank count of 1-2 vs a 3 base toss and a grand total of 2 factories (i.e. dead). I'm done with this thread anyway, there's clearly no convincing you as you seem to have only the most basic understanding of how the game works.
I'm afraid the clueless theorycrafter here is you, since that's not the purpose of using vultures in that game. Just 2 or 3 vultures lay mines in front of his nat would most probably prevent the fatal zealot stream into his base, causing the GG. The thing he needs is some mines, he doesn't need to mass vultures. But let's just stop at that. I also want to end the argument here, since you keep ignoring every facts I present and this will lead to nowhere.
Your answer to everything seems to be get really behind, get vultures, mine up the nat and hope your opponent is D-
And yours seems to be ignoring everything else other than your opinion. Not to mention the one playing here is Flash.
You're the one saying what Flash did was wrong. Also I'm listening to everyone else's opinion (Turbovolver, Caihead, Endy and others), the only one in disagreement is yours.
.... What I meant was it's Flash defending if he did choose not to commit to bio. And I have seen several times in this forum alone when not everybody has the same opinion; when few disagree with the majority.
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god
Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning.
He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest?
How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So?
Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"?
Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation.
Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will.
Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat.
I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth.
From Jangbi's interview:
"You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won."
You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms.
My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled?
Your evidence: personal theorycrafting
On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote: If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy
Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make.
I assumed you'd be one of those clueless theorycrafters blaming that loss on flash being stupid and not massing vultures off his 2 factories when he was vs'ing dragoon reaver. Even if he somehow holds the zealots he has a tank count of 1-2 vs a 3 base toss and a grand total of 2 factories (i.e. dead). I'm done with this thread anyway, there's clearly no convincing you as you seem to have only the most basic understanding of how the game works.
I'm afraid the clueless theorycrafter here is you, since that's not the purpose of using vultures in that game. Just 2 or 3 vultures lay mines in front of his nat would most probably prevent the fatal zealot stream into his base, causing the GG. The thing he needs is some mines, he doesn't need to mass vultures. But let's just stop at that. I also want to end the argument here, since you keep ignoring every facts I present and this will lead to nowhere.
Your answer to everything seems to be get really behind, get vultures, mine up the nat and hope your opponent is D-
And yours seems to be ignoring everything else other than your opinion. Not to mention the one playing here is Flash.
... and your ignoring the opinions of two progamers, flash and jangbi.
I don't even know what to say about this. You're just arguing for the sake of argue, not to get to the point....
I'm arguing because Jangbi was right, and that his opinion is proven by logical induction (his experience and logical thought process concluded that he already won when he saw the barracks because he understands PvT from the protoss perspective and knows the terran can't beat his build or transition out of it) as well as empirical evidence (he won). Flash's opinion also matters because he's consistently been the top 1-2 terran in the world as well as having top 1-3 TvP as well as having personal stake in winning the match. Flash's opinion isn't wrong just because he lost a game where he had nothing but bad luck (scouting jangbi last resulting in it being denied, going bio to counter mass dragoons and having jangbi go templar tech) and disadvantages (losing scvs with an econ build, having no time or resources to transition out of his build).
I'm trying to invoke professional (and it is professional, these people are professional gamers at the top of the food chain) credibility to add to my argument. What is your point? I'm backing my opinion up with facts, statistics, build analysis, and showing why from the player's perspective these choices make sense. What you've done is insist on a build switch which is completely illogical.
How about this Alypse. Can you try to find an instance where any player, any player at all, canceled his production / tech structures entirely to start another build at a much delayed timing? Because there are hundreds of instances where players have WON with a weaker or non optimal build that they kept going even after being scouted / countered because they can't transition out of it. Show me something in the contrary.
Please, I am sure I can take everything you just said about logical induction and professional credibility to the side of my argument. I can just say that by Flash's experience and game sense and mechanics and the fact that he is the top T in the world and the consistent top 3 TvP player... so he would be completely fine should he chose the other way. Of course Jangbi could just say anything once he's won. All your facts, stats, analysis... make as much sense as mine do to me. The point is (I don't know how many times I have said this), there's nothing to prove that committing to bio is not the worst way for Flash. and I am suggesting that going for the other strategy would probably result in a higher chance of winning. Why? I explained it before, don't wanna waste my time write it down again.
I don't think I can find a situation like this when a T intends to do a switch the moment he saw the DTs.. But I remember a game between Kal and a T, where T went for bio right from the beginning, got a big advantage but still in the end got mauled by storms and DTs. The only scenario where bio works vs P is when T can deal the fatal blow to P right in the first time, and that goal can only be done when P has no knowledge of the strategy. (Turn vs Stats for example.)
Yea, except you are ignoring something. Factual evidence and game mechanics. This is ridiculous. Flash can't just make any build work, neither can any player, it has to be planned and calculated. It's a calculated decision to continue with the bio mech push. No terran progamer would chose to cancel his barracks unless he was hoping for the protoss to just drop out of the game because he knows that the protoss would either out expand him while he defends for a push that never comes since the protoss has vision of his side of the field via DT's, or the protoss would just outright kill him while there is an absence of units. You can't just use the defense that your opinion makes sense to you when there's already an established answer to the problem because Broodwar is a game with defined mechanics and numeric values. Flash's highest chance of winning was with the bio mech push before storm finishes, he couldn't pull it off.
No it's not, Flash has the lowest chance of winning when commiting to the bio push. It just couldn't works when the opponent already had the knowledge of his intention and had several DTs on guard, plus you don't know is his storms are ready or not. I'm not even talking about the possibility that he will run out of scans even before reaching Jangbi's nat. Anyway it's suicidal for Flash to do so. About the potential all-in, I already discussed it before, and I won't say it again since it looks like you're in a loop.
So you don't think progamers study furiously the timing windows for unit production / research? Storms take a definite amount of time to research and HT's take a definite amount of time to produce and save up enough energy to cast storm. It's even more suicidal to go for a mech switch. Show me one game where a terran does what you are suggesting.
It's all known too well that they practice a lot, but as many have also said, they are not perfect and quite frequently they make mistakes or false judgments or have bad timings. You said it yourself several pages ago, and now you're contradicting yourself. That aside, against DTs and storms AND limited scans, bio is surely a suicide.
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god
Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning.
He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest?
How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So?
Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"?
Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation.
Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will.
Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat.
I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth.
From Jangbi's interview:
"You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won."
You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms.
My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled?
Your evidence: personal theorycrafting
On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote: If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy
Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make.
I assumed you'd be one of those clueless theorycrafters blaming that loss on flash being stupid and not massing vultures off his 2 factories when he was vs'ing dragoon reaver. Even if he somehow holds the zealots he has a tank count of 1-2 vs a 3 base toss and a grand total of 2 factories (i.e. dead). I'm done with this thread anyway, there's clearly no convincing you as you seem to have only the most basic understanding of how the game works.
I'm afraid the clueless theorycrafter here is you, since that's not the purpose of using vultures in that game. Just 2 or 3 vultures lay mines in front of his nat would most probably prevent the fatal zealot stream into his base, causing the GG. The thing he needs is some mines, he doesn't need to mass vultures. But let's just stop at that. I also want to end the argument here, since you keep ignoring every facts I present and this will lead to nowhere.
Your answer to everything seems to be get really behind, get vultures, mine up the nat and hope your opponent is D-
And yours seems to be ignoring everything else other than your opinion. Not to mention the one playing here is Flash.
You're the one saying what Flash did was wrong. Also I'm listening to everyone else's opinion (Turbovolver, Caihead, Endy and others), the only one in disagreement is yours.
.... What I meant was it's Flash defending if he did choose not to commit to bio. And I have seen several times in this forum alone when not everybody has the same opinion; when few disagree with the majority.
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god
Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning.
He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest?
How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So?
Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"?
Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation.
Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will.
Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat.
I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth.
From Jangbi's interview:
"You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won."
You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms.
My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled?
Your evidence: personal theorycrafting
On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote: If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy
Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make.
I assumed you'd be one of those clueless theorycrafters blaming that loss on flash being stupid and not massing vultures off his 2 factories when he was vs'ing dragoon reaver. Even if he somehow holds the zealots he has a tank count of 1-2 vs a 3 base toss and a grand total of 2 factories (i.e. dead). I'm done with this thread anyway, there's clearly no convincing you as you seem to have only the most basic understanding of how the game works.
I'm afraid the clueless theorycrafter here is you, since that's not the purpose of using vultures in that game. Just 2 or 3 vultures lay mines in front of his nat would most probably prevent the fatal zealot stream into his base, causing the GG. The thing he needs is some mines, he doesn't need to mass vultures. But let's just stop at that. I also want to end the argument here, since you keep ignoring every facts I present and this will lead to nowhere.
Your answer to everything seems to be get really behind, get vultures, mine up the nat and hope your opponent is D-
And yours seems to be ignoring everything else other than your opinion. Not to mention the one playing here is Flash.
... and your ignoring the opinions of two progamers, flash and jangbi.
I don't even know what to say about this. You're just arguing for the sake of argue, not to get to the point....
I'm arguing because Jangbi was right, and that his opinion is proven by logical induction (his experience and logical thought process concluded that he already won when he saw the barracks because he understands PvT from the protoss perspective and knows the terran can't beat his build or transition out of it) as well as empirical evidence (he won). Flash's opinion also matters because he's consistently been the top 1-2 terran in the world as well as having top 1-3 TvP as well as having personal stake in winning the match. Flash's opinion isn't wrong just because he lost a game where he had nothing but bad luck (scouting jangbi last resulting in it being denied, going bio to counter mass dragoons and having jangbi go templar tech) and disadvantages (losing scvs with an econ build, having no time or resources to transition out of his build).
I'm trying to invoke professional (and it is professional, these people are professional gamers at the top of the food chain) credibility to add to my argument. What is your point? I'm backing my opinion up with facts, statistics, build analysis, and showing why from the player's perspective these choices make sense. What you've done is insist on a build switch which is completely illogical.
How about this Alypse. Can you try to find an instance where any player, any player at all, canceled his production / tech structures entirely to start another build at a much delayed timing? Because there are hundreds of instances where players have WON with a weaker or non optimal build that they kept going even after being scouted / countered because they can't transition out of it. Show me something in the contrary.
Please, I am sure I can take everything you just said about logical induction and professional credibility to the side of my argument. I can just say that by Flash's experience and game sense and mechanics and the fact that he is the top T in the world and the consistent top 3 TvP player... so he would be completely fine should he chose the other way. Of course Jangbi could just say anything once he's won. All your facts, stats, analysis... make as much sense as mine do to me. The point is (I don't know how many times I have said this), there's nothing to prove that committing to bio is not the worst way for Flash. and I am suggesting that going for the other strategy would probably result in a higher chance of winning. Why? I explained it before, don't wanna waste my time write it down again.
I don't think I can find a situation like this when a T intends to do a switch the moment he saw the DTs.. But I remember a game between Kal and a T, where T went for bio right from the beginning, got a big advantage but still in the end got mauled by storms and DTs. The only scenario where bio works vs P is when T can deal the fatal blow to P right in the first time, and that goal can only be done when P has no knowledge of the strategy. (Turn vs Stats for example.)
Yea, except you are ignoring something. Factual evidence and game mechanics. This is ridiculous. Flash can't just make any build work, neither can any player, it has to be planned and calculated. It's a calculated decision to continue with the bio mech push. No terran progamer would chose to cancel his barracks unless he was hoping for the protoss to just drop out of the game because he knows that the protoss would either out expand him while he defends for a push that never comes since the protoss has vision of his side of the field via DT's, or the protoss would just outright kill him while there is an absence of units. You can't just use the defense that your opinion makes sense to you when there's already an established answer to the problem because Broodwar is a game with defined mechanics and numeric values. Flash's highest chance of winning was with the bio mech push before storm finishes, he couldn't pull it off.
No it's not, Flash has the lowest chance of winning when commiting to the bio push. It just couldn't works when the opponent already had the knowledge of his intention and had several DTs on guard, plus you don't know is his storms are ready or not. I'm not even talking about the possibility that he will run out of scans even before reaching Jangbi's nat. Anyway it's suicidal for Flash to do so. About the potential all-in, I already discussed it before, and I won't say it again since it looks like you're in a loop.
So you don't think progamers study furiously the timing windows for unit production / research? Storms take a definite amount of time to research and HT's take a definite amount of time to produce and save up enough energy to cast storm. It's even more suicidal to go for a mech switch. Show me one game where a terran does what you are suggesting.
It's all known too well that they practice a lot, but as many have also said, they are not perfect and quite frequently they make mistakes or false judgments or have bad timings. You said it yourself several pages ago, and now you're contradicting yourself. That aside, against DTs and storms AND limited scans, bio is surely a suicide.
It's still the only shot he has,trying to wait and turtle on 2 bases with mines is an even worse option because the protoss can just choose to macro and expand more instead of attacking when he sees that there are vultures instead of a bio attack. It's still the better choice. It's a bad decision on its own but Flash can't escape the position he was already so he needs to make do, same with trying to hold a 9 pool with a 12 hatch. You've already done the build, you can't transition out of it into a more optimal build.
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god
Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning.
He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest?
How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So?
Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"?
Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation.
Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will.
Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat.
I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth.
From Jangbi's interview:
"You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won."
You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms.
My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled?
Your evidence: personal theorycrafting
On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote: If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy
Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make.
I assumed you'd be one of those clueless theorycrafters blaming that loss on flash being stupid and not massing vultures off his 2 factories when he was vs'ing dragoon reaver. Even if he somehow holds the zealots he has a tank count of 1-2 vs a 3 base toss and a grand total of 2 factories (i.e. dead). I'm done with this thread anyway, there's clearly no convincing you as you seem to have only the most basic understanding of how the game works.
I'm afraid the clueless theorycrafter here is you, since that's not the purpose of using vultures in that game. Just 2 or 3 vultures lay mines in front of his nat would most probably prevent the fatal zealot stream into his base, causing the GG. The thing he needs is some mines, he doesn't need to mass vultures. But let's just stop at that. I also want to end the argument here, since you keep ignoring every facts I present and this will lead to nowhere.
Your answer to everything seems to be get really behind, get vultures, mine up the nat and hope your opponent is D-
And yours seems to be ignoring everything else other than your opinion. Not to mention the one playing here is Flash.
You're the one saying what Flash did was wrong. Also I'm listening to everyone else's opinion (Turbovolver, Caihead, Endy and others), the only one in disagreement is yours.
.... What I meant was it's Flash defending if he did choose not to commit to bio. And I have seen several times in this forum alone when not everybody has the same opinion; when few disagree with the majority.
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god
Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning.
He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest?
How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So?
Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"?
Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation.
Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will.
Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat.
I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth.
From Jangbi's interview:
"You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won."
You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms.
My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled?
Your evidence: personal theorycrafting
On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote: If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy
Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make.
I assumed you'd be one of those clueless theorycrafters blaming that loss on flash being stupid and not massing vultures off his 2 factories when he was vs'ing dragoon reaver. Even if he somehow holds the zealots he has a tank count of 1-2 vs a 3 base toss and a grand total of 2 factories (i.e. dead). I'm done with this thread anyway, there's clearly no convincing you as you seem to have only the most basic understanding of how the game works.
I'm afraid the clueless theorycrafter here is you, since that's not the purpose of using vultures in that game. Just 2 or 3 vultures lay mines in front of his nat would most probably prevent the fatal zealot stream into his base, causing the GG. The thing he needs is some mines, he doesn't need to mass vultures. But let's just stop at that. I also want to end the argument here, since you keep ignoring every facts I present and this will lead to nowhere.
Your answer to everything seems to be get really behind, get vultures, mine up the nat and hope your opponent is D-
And yours seems to be ignoring everything else other than your opinion. Not to mention the one playing here is Flash.
... and your ignoring the opinions of two progamers, flash and jangbi.
I don't even know what to say about this. You're just arguing for the sake of argue, not to get to the point....
I'm arguing because Jangbi was right, and that his opinion is proven by logical induction (his experience and logical thought process concluded that he already won when he saw the barracks because he understands PvT from the protoss perspective and knows the terran can't beat his build or transition out of it) as well as empirical evidence (he won). Flash's opinion also matters because he's consistently been the top 1-2 terran in the world as well as having top 1-3 TvP as well as having personal stake in winning the match. Flash's opinion isn't wrong just because he lost a game where he had nothing but bad luck (scouting jangbi last resulting in it being denied, going bio to counter mass dragoons and having jangbi go templar tech) and disadvantages (losing scvs with an econ build, having no time or resources to transition out of his build).
I'm trying to invoke professional (and it is professional, these people are professional gamers at the top of the food chain) credibility to add to my argument. What is your point? I'm backing my opinion up with facts, statistics, build analysis, and showing why from the player's perspective these choices make sense. What you've done is insist on a build switch which is completely illogical.
How about this Alypse. Can you try to find an instance where any player, any player at all, canceled his production / tech structures entirely to start another build at a much delayed timing? Because there are hundreds of instances where players have WON with a weaker or non optimal build that they kept going even after being scouted / countered because they can't transition out of it. Show me something in the contrary.
Please, I am sure I can take everything you just said about logical induction and professional credibility to the side of my argument. I can just say that by Flash's experience and game sense and mechanics and the fact that he is the top T in the world and the consistent top 3 TvP player... so he would be completely fine should he chose the other way. Of course Jangbi could just say anything once he's won. All your facts, stats, analysis... make as much sense as mine do to me. The point is (I don't know how many times I have said this), there's nothing to prove that committing to bio is not the worst way for Flash. and I am suggesting that going for the other strategy would probably result in a higher chance of winning. Why? I explained it before, don't wanna waste my time write it down again.
I don't think I can find a situation like this when a T intends to do a switch the moment he saw the DTs.. But I remember a game between Kal and a T, where T went for bio right from the beginning, got a big advantage but still in the end got mauled by storms and DTs. The only scenario where bio works vs P is when T can deal the fatal blow to P right in the first time, and that goal can only be done when P has no knowledge of the strategy. (Turn vs Stats for example.)
Yea, except you are ignoring something. Factual evidence and game mechanics. This is ridiculous. Flash can't just make any build work, neither can any player, it has to be planned and calculated. It's a calculated decision to continue with the bio mech push. No terran progamer would chose to cancel his barracks unless he was hoping for the protoss to just drop out of the game because he knows that the protoss would either out expand him while he defends for a push that never comes since the protoss has vision of his side of the field via DT's, or the protoss would just outright kill him while there is an absence of units. You can't just use the defense that your opinion makes sense to you when there's already an established answer to the problem because Broodwar is a game with defined mechanics and numeric values. Flash's highest chance of winning was with the bio mech push before storm finishes, he couldn't pull it off.
No it's not, Flash has the lowest chance of winning when commiting to the bio push. It just couldn't works when the opponent already had the knowledge of his intention and had several DTs on guard, plus you don't know is his storms are ready or not. I'm not even talking about the possibility that he will run out of scans even before reaching Jangbi's nat. Anyway it's suicidal for Flash to do so. About the potential all-in, I already discussed it before, and I won't say it again since it looks like you're in a loop.
So you don't think progamers study furiously the timing windows for unit production / research? Storms take a definite amount of time to research and HT's take a definite amount of time to produce and save up enough energy to cast storm. It's even more suicidal to go for a mech switch. Show me one game where a terran does what you are suggesting.
It's all known too well that they practice a lot, but as many have also said, they are not perfect and quite frequently they make mistakes or false judgments or have bad timings. You said it yourself several pages ago, and now you're contradicting yourself. That aside, against DTs and storms AND limited scans, bio is surely a suicide.
It's still the only shot he has,trying to wait and turtle on 2 bases with mines is an even worse option because the protoss can just choose to macro and expand more instead of attacking when he sees that there are vultures instead of a bio attack. It's still the better choice. It's a bad decision on its own but Flash can't escape the position he was already so he needs to make do, same with trying to hold a 9 pool with a 12 hatch. You've already done the build, you can't transition out of it into a more optimal build.
I said it before, Flash was building up 2 raxes at that time, he hasn't finished it yet. And pretty sure the stim research has not finished. He's definitely not too deep within it and can turn his way back. Why not choose the better tactics when the one you're doing is suicidal, and the other tactics is viable? Lastly, ZvZ in general and 9 pool vs 12 hatch in particular, due to zerg's characteristics, are much tighter in terms of time and time management, so you should not compare them to this case.
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god
Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning.
He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest?
How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So?
Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"?
Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation.
Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will.
Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat.
I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth.
From Jangbi's interview:
"You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won."
You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms.
My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled?
Your evidence: personal theorycrafting
On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote: If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy
Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make.
I assumed you'd be one of those clueless theorycrafters blaming that loss on flash being stupid and not massing vultures off his 2 factories when he was vs'ing dragoon reaver. Even if he somehow holds the zealots he has a tank count of 1-2 vs a 3 base toss and a grand total of 2 factories (i.e. dead). I'm done with this thread anyway, there's clearly no convincing you as you seem to have only the most basic understanding of how the game works.
I'm afraid the clueless theorycrafter here is you, since that's not the purpose of using vultures in that game. Just 2 or 3 vultures lay mines in front of his nat would most probably prevent the fatal zealot stream into his base, causing the GG. The thing he needs is some mines, he doesn't need to mass vultures. But let's just stop at that. I also want to end the argument here, since you keep ignoring every facts I present and this will lead to nowhere.
Your answer to everything seems to be get really behind, get vultures, mine up the nat and hope your opponent is D-
And yours seems to be ignoring everything else other than your opinion. Not to mention the one playing here is Flash.
You're the one saying what Flash did was wrong. Also I'm listening to everyone else's opinion (Turbovolver, Caihead, Endy and others), the only one in disagreement is yours.
.... What I meant was it's Flash defending if he did choose not to commit to bio. And I have seen several times in this forum alone when not everybody has the same opinion; when few disagree with the majority.
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god
Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning.
He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest?
How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So?
Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"?
Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation.
Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will.
Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat.
I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth.
From Jangbi's interview:
"You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won."
You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms.
My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled?
Your evidence: personal theorycrafting
On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote: If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy
Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make.
I assumed you'd be one of those clueless theorycrafters blaming that loss on flash being stupid and not massing vultures off his 2 factories when he was vs'ing dragoon reaver. Even if he somehow holds the zealots he has a tank count of 1-2 vs a 3 base toss and a grand total of 2 factories (i.e. dead). I'm done with this thread anyway, there's clearly no convincing you as you seem to have only the most basic understanding of how the game works.
I'm afraid the clueless theorycrafter here is you, since that's not the purpose of using vultures in that game. Just 2 or 3 vultures lay mines in front of his nat would most probably prevent the fatal zealot stream into his base, causing the GG. The thing he needs is some mines, he doesn't need to mass vultures. But let's just stop at that. I also want to end the argument here, since you keep ignoring every facts I present and this will lead to nowhere.
Your answer to everything seems to be get really behind, get vultures, mine up the nat and hope your opponent is D-
And yours seems to be ignoring everything else other than your opinion. Not to mention the one playing here is Flash.
... and your ignoring the opinions of two progamers, flash and jangbi.
I don't even know what to say about this. You're just arguing for the sake of argue, not to get to the point....
I'm arguing because Jangbi was right, and that his opinion is proven by logical induction (his experience and logical thought process concluded that he already won when he saw the barracks because he understands PvT from the protoss perspective and knows the terran can't beat his build or transition out of it) as well as empirical evidence (he won). Flash's opinion also matters because he's consistently been the top 1-2 terran in the world as well as having top 1-3 TvP as well as having personal stake in winning the match. Flash's opinion isn't wrong just because he lost a game where he had nothing but bad luck (scouting jangbi last resulting in it being denied, going bio to counter mass dragoons and having jangbi go templar tech) and disadvantages (losing scvs with an econ build, having no time or resources to transition out of his build).
I'm trying to invoke professional (and it is professional, these people are professional gamers at the top of the food chain) credibility to add to my argument. What is your point? I'm backing my opinion up with facts, statistics, build analysis, and showing why from the player's perspective these choices make sense. What you've done is insist on a build switch which is completely illogical.
How about this Alypse. Can you try to find an instance where any player, any player at all, canceled his production / tech structures entirely to start another build at a much delayed timing? Because there are hundreds of instances where players have WON with a weaker or non optimal build that they kept going even after being scouted / countered because they can't transition out of it. Show me something in the contrary.
Please, I am sure I can take everything you just said about logical induction and professional credibility to the side of my argument. I can just say that by Flash's experience and game sense and mechanics and the fact that he is the top T in the world and the consistent top 3 TvP player... so he would be completely fine should he chose the other way. Of course Jangbi could just say anything once he's won. All your facts, stats, analysis... make as much sense as mine do to me. The point is (I don't know how many times I have said this), there's nothing to prove that committing to bio is not the worst way for Flash. and I am suggesting that going for the other strategy would probably result in a higher chance of winning. Why? I explained it before, don't wanna waste my time write it down again.
I don't think I can find a situation like this when a T intends to do a switch the moment he saw the DTs.. But I remember a game between Kal and a T, where T went for bio right from the beginning, got a big advantage but still in the end got mauled by storms and DTs. The only scenario where bio works vs P is when T can deal the fatal blow to P right in the first time, and that goal can only be done when P has no knowledge of the strategy. (Turn vs Stats for example.)
Yea, except you are ignoring something. Factual evidence and game mechanics. This is ridiculous. Flash can't just make any build work, neither can any player, it has to be planned and calculated. It's a calculated decision to continue with the bio mech push. No terran progamer would chose to cancel his barracks unless he was hoping for the protoss to just drop out of the game because he knows that the protoss would either out expand him while he defends for a push that never comes since the protoss has vision of his side of the field via DT's, or the protoss would just outright kill him while there is an absence of units. You can't just use the defense that your opinion makes sense to you when there's already an established answer to the problem because Broodwar is a game with defined mechanics and numeric values. Flash's highest chance of winning was with the bio mech push before storm finishes, he couldn't pull it off.
No it's not, Flash has the lowest chance of winning when commiting to the bio push. It just couldn't works when the opponent already had the knowledge of his intention and had several DTs on guard, plus you don't know is his storms are ready or not. I'm not even talking about the possibility that he will run out of scans even before reaching Jangbi's nat. Anyway it's suicidal for Flash to do so. About the potential all-in, I already discussed it before, and I won't say it again since it looks like you're in a loop.
So you don't think progamers study furiously the timing windows for unit production / research? Storms take a definite amount of time to research and HT's take a definite amount of time to produce and save up enough energy to cast storm. It's even more suicidal to go for a mech switch. Show me one game where a terran does what you are suggesting.
It's all known too well that they practice a lot, but as many have also said, they are not perfect and quite frequently they make mistakes or false judgments or have bad timings. You said it yourself several pages ago, and now you're contradicting yourself. That aside, against DTs and storms AND limited scans, bio is surely a suicide.
It's still the only shot he has,trying to wait and turtle on 2 bases with mines is an even worse option because the protoss can just choose to macro and expand more instead of attacking when he sees that there are vultures instead of a bio attack. It's still the better choice. It's a bad decision on its own but Flash can't escape the position he was already so he needs to make do, same with trying to hold a 9 pool with a 12 hatch. You've already done the build, you can't transition out of it into a more optimal build.
He's definitely not too deep within it and can turn his way back. Why not choose the better tactics when the one you're doing is suicidal, and the other tactics is viable?
You just answered your own question. Flash knew exactly what he was up against and if he thought he could've transitioned to something better he would have. He still chose to go with his bio timing vs templar tech despite it being an uphill battle (maybe 5% or less win rate with their respective builds). Flash still chose biomech as the best tactic because your idiotic mech transition is completely non-viable in that situation. Just because you don't understand why it's not viable doesn't mean it is (multiple people have posted explaining the many ways in which toss destroys a mech transition in the context of that game). Like Caihead I challenge you to find ONE game in the history of bw where multiple production structures and tech are cancelled that late by a progamer to transition into something completely different. Now assuming you can't, your thinking either revolutionizes a 10 year old game or is fundamentally flawed. I'm going with the latter.
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god
Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning.
He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest?
How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So?
Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"?
Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation.
Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will.
Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat.
I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth.
From Jangbi's interview:
"You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won."
You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms.
My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled?
Your evidence: personal theorycrafting
On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote: If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy
Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make.
I assumed you'd be one of those clueless theorycrafters blaming that loss on flash being stupid and not massing vultures off his 2 factories when he was vs'ing dragoon reaver. Even if he somehow holds the zealots he has a tank count of 1-2 vs a 3 base toss and a grand total of 2 factories (i.e. dead). I'm done with this thread anyway, there's clearly no convincing you as you seem to have only the most basic understanding of how the game works.
I'm afraid the clueless theorycrafter here is you, since that's not the purpose of using vultures in that game. Just 2 or 3 vultures lay mines in front of his nat would most probably prevent the fatal zealot stream into his base, causing the GG. The thing he needs is some mines, he doesn't need to mass vultures. But let's just stop at that. I also want to end the argument here, since you keep ignoring every facts I present and this will lead to nowhere.
Your answer to everything seems to be get really behind, get vultures, mine up the nat and hope your opponent is D-
And yours seems to be ignoring everything else other than your opinion. Not to mention the one playing here is Flash.
You're the one saying what Flash did was wrong. Also I'm listening to everyone else's opinion (Turbovolver, Caihead, Endy and others), the only one in disagreement is yours.
.... What I meant was it's Flash defending if he did choose not to commit to bio. And I have seen several times in this forum alone when not everybody has the same opinion; when few disagree with the majority.
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god
Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning.
He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest?
How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So?
Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"?
Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation.
Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will.
Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat.
I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth.
From Jangbi's interview:
"You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won."
You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms.
My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled?
Your evidence: personal theorycrafting
On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote: If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy
Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make.
I assumed you'd be one of those clueless theorycrafters blaming that loss on flash being stupid and not massing vultures off his 2 factories when he was vs'ing dragoon reaver. Even if he somehow holds the zealots he has a tank count of 1-2 vs a 3 base toss and a grand total of 2 factories (i.e. dead). I'm done with this thread anyway, there's clearly no convincing you as you seem to have only the most basic understanding of how the game works.
I'm afraid the clueless theorycrafter here is you, since that's not the purpose of using vultures in that game. Just 2 or 3 vultures lay mines in front of his nat would most probably prevent the fatal zealot stream into his base, causing the GG. The thing he needs is some mines, he doesn't need to mass vultures. But let's just stop at that. I also want to end the argument here, since you keep ignoring every facts I present and this will lead to nowhere.
Your answer to everything seems to be get really behind, get vultures, mine up the nat and hope your opponent is D-
And yours seems to be ignoring everything else other than your opinion. Not to mention the one playing here is Flash.
... and your ignoring the opinions of two progamers, flash and jangbi.
I don't even know what to say about this. You're just arguing for the sake of argue, not to get to the point....
I'm arguing because Jangbi was right, and that his opinion is proven by logical induction (his experience and logical thought process concluded that he already won when he saw the barracks because he understands PvT from the protoss perspective and knows the terran can't beat his build or transition out of it) as well as empirical evidence (he won). Flash's opinion also matters because he's consistently been the top 1-2 terran in the world as well as having top 1-3 TvP as well as having personal stake in winning the match. Flash's opinion isn't wrong just because he lost a game where he had nothing but bad luck (scouting jangbi last resulting in it being denied, going bio to counter mass dragoons and having jangbi go templar tech) and disadvantages (losing scvs with an econ build, having no time or resources to transition out of his build).
I'm trying to invoke professional (and it is professional, these people are professional gamers at the top of the food chain) credibility to add to my argument. What is your point? I'm backing my opinion up with facts, statistics, build analysis, and showing why from the player's perspective these choices make sense. What you've done is insist on a build switch which is completely illogical.
How about this Alypse. Can you try to find an instance where any player, any player at all, canceled his production / tech structures entirely to start another build at a much delayed timing? Because there are hundreds of instances where players have WON with a weaker or non optimal build that they kept going even after being scouted / countered because they can't transition out of it. Show me something in the contrary.
Please, I am sure I can take everything you just said about logical induction and professional credibility to the side of my argument. I can just say that by Flash's experience and game sense and mechanics and the fact that he is the top T in the world and the consistent top 3 TvP player... so he would be completely fine should he chose the other way. Of course Jangbi could just say anything once he's won. All your facts, stats, analysis... make as much sense as mine do to me. The point is (I don't know how many times I have said this), there's nothing to prove that committing to bio is not the worst way for Flash. and I am suggesting that going for the other strategy would probably result in a higher chance of winning. Why? I explained it before, don't wanna waste my time write it down again.
I don't think I can find a situation like this when a T intends to do a switch the moment he saw the DTs.. But I remember a game between Kal and a T, where T went for bio right from the beginning, got a big advantage but still in the end got mauled by storms and DTs. The only scenario where bio works vs P is when T can deal the fatal blow to P right in the first time, and that goal can only be done when P has no knowledge of the strategy. (Turn vs Stats for example.)
Yea, except you are ignoring something. Factual evidence and game mechanics. This is ridiculous. Flash can't just make any build work, neither can any player, it has to be planned and calculated. It's a calculated decision to continue with the bio mech push. No terran progamer would chose to cancel his barracks unless he was hoping for the protoss to just drop out of the game because he knows that the protoss would either out expand him while he defends for a push that never comes since the protoss has vision of his side of the field via DT's, or the protoss would just outright kill him while there is an absence of units. You can't just use the defense that your opinion makes sense to you when there's already an established answer to the problem because Broodwar is a game with defined mechanics and numeric values. Flash's highest chance of winning was with the bio mech push before storm finishes, he couldn't pull it off.
No it's not, Flash has the lowest chance of winning when commiting to the bio push. It just couldn't works when the opponent already had the knowledge of his intention and had several DTs on guard, plus you don't know is his storms are ready or not. I'm not even talking about the possibility that he will run out of scans even before reaching Jangbi's nat. Anyway it's suicidal for Flash to do so. About the potential all-in, I already discussed it before, and I won't say it again since it looks like you're in a loop.
So you don't think progamers study furiously the timing windows for unit production / research? Storms take a definite amount of time to research and HT's take a definite amount of time to produce and save up enough energy to cast storm. It's even more suicidal to go for a mech switch. Show me one game where a terran does what you are suggesting.
It's all known too well that they practice a lot, but as many have also said, they are not perfect and quite frequently they make mistakes or false judgments or have bad timings. You said it yourself several pages ago, and now you're contradicting yourself. That aside, against DTs and storms AND limited scans, bio is surely a suicide.
It's still the only shot he has,trying to wait and turtle on 2 bases with mines is an even worse option because the protoss can just choose to macro and expand more instead of attacking when he sees that there are vultures instead of a bio attack. It's still the better choice. It's a bad decision on its own but Flash can't escape the position he was already so he needs to make do, same with trying to hold a 9 pool with a 12 hatch. You've already done the build, you can't transition out of it into a more optimal build.
He's definitely not too deep within it and can turn his way back. Why not choose the better tactics when the one you're doing is suicidal, and the other tactics is viable?
You just answered your own question. Flash knew exactly what he was up against and if he thought he could've transitioned to something better he would have. He still chose to go with his bio timing vs templar tech despite it being an uphill battle (maybe 5% or less win rate with their respective builds). Flash still chose biomech as the best tactic because your idiotic mech transition is completely non-viable in that situation. Just because you don't understand why it's not viable doesn't mean it is (multiple people have posted explaining the many ways in which toss destroys a mech transition in the context of that game). Like Caihead I challenge you to find ONE game in the history of bw where multiple production structures and tech are cancelled that late by a progamer to transition into something completely different. Now assuming you can't, your thinking either revolutionizes a 10 year old game or is fundamentally flawed. I'm going with the latter.
And what is it that you just said? Theorycrafting based on nothing at all? Like I said, as much as I can't find a game with such a situation, you have absolutely nothing to prove that the commitment Flash made is the best way possible and instead just ignorantly and mindlessly repeating about your "understanding of the matchup".
Im sure this must have been discussed earlier but what exactly was mini (or was it grape) doing? I have never seen so much fail in a SC game before. There was absolutely no reason to go down at that moment. Now lets suppose that he looked elsewhere and units followed the enemy down the ramp (extremely unlikely seeing as he was controlling them 2 seconds ago), why did he not focus fire at all? I pretty much always give the benefit of the doubt to the player, but this time i cant help but think his threw this game.
btw, alypse is pretty ignorant. The only possible way of winning this game was for flash to scan away dts and set up a turret line to toss's nat and bunker the shit out of it. That was the ONLY way flash could have won. Doing some stupid mech switch might prolong the game for a little bit, but they are trying to win, not drag out a hopeless game. The more likely scenario would be just being overrun due to lack of units.
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god
Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning.
He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest?
How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So?
Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"?
Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation.
Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will.
Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat.
I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth.
From Jangbi's interview:
"You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won."
You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms.
My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled?
Your evidence: personal theorycrafting
On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote: If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy
Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make.
I assumed you'd be one of those clueless theorycrafters blaming that loss on flash being stupid and not massing vultures off his 2 factories when he was vs'ing dragoon reaver. Even if he somehow holds the zealots he has a tank count of 1-2 vs a 3 base toss and a grand total of 2 factories (i.e. dead). I'm done with this thread anyway, there's clearly no convincing you as you seem to have only the most basic understanding of how the game works.
I'm afraid the clueless theorycrafter here is you, since that's not the purpose of using vultures in that game. Just 2 or 3 vultures lay mines in front of his nat would most probably prevent the fatal zealot stream into his base, causing the GG. The thing he needs is some mines, he doesn't need to mass vultures. But let's just stop at that. I also want to end the argument here, since you keep ignoring every facts I present and this will lead to nowhere.
Your answer to everything seems to be get really behind, get vultures, mine up the nat and hope your opponent is D-
And yours seems to be ignoring everything else other than your opinion. Not to mention the one playing here is Flash.
You're the one saying what Flash did was wrong. Also I'm listening to everyone else's opinion (Turbovolver, Caihead, Endy and others), the only one in disagreement is yours.
.... What I meant was it's Flash defending if he did choose not to commit to bio. And I have seen several times in this forum alone when not everybody has the same opinion; when few disagree with the majority.
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god
Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning.
He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest?
How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So?
Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"?
Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation.
Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will.
Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat.
I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth.
From Jangbi's interview:
"You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won."
You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms.
My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled?
Your evidence: personal theorycrafting
On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote: If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy
Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make.
I assumed you'd be one of those clueless theorycrafters blaming that loss on flash being stupid and not massing vultures off his 2 factories when he was vs'ing dragoon reaver. Even if he somehow holds the zealots he has a tank count of 1-2 vs a 3 base toss and a grand total of 2 factories (i.e. dead). I'm done with this thread anyway, there's clearly no convincing you as you seem to have only the most basic understanding of how the game works.
I'm afraid the clueless theorycrafter here is you, since that's not the purpose of using vultures in that game. Just 2 or 3 vultures lay mines in front of his nat would most probably prevent the fatal zealot stream into his base, causing the GG. The thing he needs is some mines, he doesn't need to mass vultures. But let's just stop at that. I also want to end the argument here, since you keep ignoring every facts I present and this will lead to nowhere.
Your answer to everything seems to be get really behind, get vultures, mine up the nat and hope your opponent is D-
And yours seems to be ignoring everything else other than your opinion. Not to mention the one playing here is Flash.
... and your ignoring the opinions of two progamers, flash and jangbi.
I don't even know what to say about this. You're just arguing for the sake of argue, not to get to the point....
I'm arguing because Jangbi was right, and that his opinion is proven by logical induction (his experience and logical thought process concluded that he already won when he saw the barracks because he understands PvT from the protoss perspective and knows the terran can't beat his build or transition out of it) as well as empirical evidence (he won). Flash's opinion also matters because he's consistently been the top 1-2 terran in the world as well as having top 1-3 TvP as well as having personal stake in winning the match. Flash's opinion isn't wrong just because he lost a game where he had nothing but bad luck (scouting jangbi last resulting in it being denied, going bio to counter mass dragoons and having jangbi go templar tech) and disadvantages (losing scvs with an econ build, having no time or resources to transition out of his build).
I'm trying to invoke professional (and it is professional, these people are professional gamers at the top of the food chain) credibility to add to my argument. What is your point? I'm backing my opinion up with facts, statistics, build analysis, and showing why from the player's perspective these choices make sense. What you've done is insist on a build switch which is completely illogical.
How about this Alypse. Can you try to find an instance where any player, any player at all, canceled his production / tech structures entirely to start another build at a much delayed timing? Because there are hundreds of instances where players have WON with a weaker or non optimal build that they kept going even after being scouted / countered because they can't transition out of it. Show me something in the contrary.
Please, I am sure I can take everything you just said about logical induction and professional credibility to the side of my argument. I can just say that by Flash's experience and game sense and mechanics and the fact that he is the top T in the world and the consistent top 3 TvP player... so he would be completely fine should he chose the other way. Of course Jangbi could just say anything once he's won. All your facts, stats, analysis... make as much sense as mine do to me. The point is (I don't know how many times I have said this), there's nothing to prove that committing to bio is not the worst way for Flash. and I am suggesting that going for the other strategy would probably result in a higher chance of winning. Why? I explained it before, don't wanna waste my time write it down again.
I don't think I can find a situation like this when a T intends to do a switch the moment he saw the DTs.. But I remember a game between Kal and a T, where T went for bio right from the beginning, got a big advantage but still in the end got mauled by storms and DTs. The only scenario where bio works vs P is when T can deal the fatal blow to P right in the first time, and that goal can only be done when P has no knowledge of the strategy. (Turn vs Stats for example.)
Yea, except you are ignoring something. Factual evidence and game mechanics. This is ridiculous. Flash can't just make any build work, neither can any player, it has to be planned and calculated. It's a calculated decision to continue with the bio mech push. No terran progamer would chose to cancel his barracks unless he was hoping for the protoss to just drop out of the game because he knows that the protoss would either out expand him while he defends for a push that never comes since the protoss has vision of his side of the field via DT's, or the protoss would just outright kill him while there is an absence of units. You can't just use the defense that your opinion makes sense to you when there's already an established answer to the problem because Broodwar is a game with defined mechanics and numeric values. Flash's highest chance of winning was with the bio mech push before storm finishes, he couldn't pull it off.
No it's not, Flash has the lowest chance of winning when commiting to the bio push. It just couldn't works when the opponent already had the knowledge of his intention and had several DTs on guard, plus you don't know is his storms are ready or not. I'm not even talking about the possibility that he will run out of scans even before reaching Jangbi's nat. Anyway it's suicidal for Flash to do so. About the potential all-in, I already discussed it before, and I won't say it again since it looks like you're in a loop.
So you don't think progamers study furiously the timing windows for unit production / research? Storms take a definite amount of time to research and HT's take a definite amount of time to produce and save up enough energy to cast storm. It's even more suicidal to go for a mech switch. Show me one game where a terran does what you are suggesting.
It's all known too well that they practice a lot, but as many have also said, they are not perfect and quite frequently they make mistakes or false judgments or have bad timings. You said it yourself several pages ago, and now you're contradicting yourself. That aside, against DTs and storms AND limited scans, bio is surely a suicide.
It's still the only shot he has,trying to wait and turtle on 2 bases with mines is an even worse option because the protoss can just choose to macro and expand more instead of attacking when he sees that there are vultures instead of a bio attack. It's still the better choice. It's a bad decision on its own but Flash can't escape the position he was already so he needs to make do, same with trying to hold a 9 pool with a 12 hatch. You've already done the build, you can't transition out of it into a more optimal build.
He's definitely not too deep within it and can turn his way back. Why not choose the better tactics when the one you're doing is suicidal, and the other tactics is viable?
You just answered your own question. Flash knew exactly what he was up against and if he thought he could've transitioned to something better he would have. He still chose to go with his bio timing vs templar tech despite it being an uphill battle (maybe 5% or less win rate with their respective builds). Flash still chose biomech as the best tactic because your idiotic mech transition is completely non-viable in that situation. Just because you don't understand why it's not viable doesn't mean it is (multiple people have posted explaining the many ways in which toss destroys a mech transition in the context of that game). Like Caihead I challenge you to find ONE game in the history of bw where multiple production structures and tech are cancelled that late by a progamer to transition into something completely different. Now assuming you can't, your thinking either revolutionizes a 10 year old game or is fundamentally flawed. I'm going with the latter.
And what is it that you just said? Theorycrafting based on nothing at all? Like I said, as much as I can't find a game with such a situation, you have absolutely nothing to prove that the commitment Flash made is the best way possible and instead just ignorantly and mindlessly repeating about your "understanding of the matchup".
I used build analysis, I stated building times for units and buildings, I stated flash's lack of gas mining at the time because of the bio mech build and how it wouldn't be possible to produce a mech army not to mention his lack of mech upgrades, I stated why flash can't use units to scout nor can he use scans to scout and why his scout was denied, I stated research times for key researches like mines / speed / storm, I stated what Flash was able to see at what time and why he would choose to continue the build. I made note of the fact that flash lost scvs with an economical build so jangbi and flash are pretty even on economy especially since flash cut scvs for his build. And I stated what possible transitions the protoss could have gone with at the time based on what flash knows, and how the game would play out if a transition like you said would happen, namely protoss expand at will, crush flash while he has an absence of units, ability to scout and deny aggression or macro instead of aggression if he sees mines with the dt's, deny flash's third indefinitely due to army size. You can see all of that if you just go back a few pages or hell, look in this conversation in spoilers.
And then you tell me it's all based on nothing.
*throws hands up in the air* w/e not worth my time
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god
Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning.
He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest?
How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So?
Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"?
Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation.
Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will.
Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat.
I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth.
From Jangbi's interview:
"You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won."
You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms.
My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled?
Your evidence: personal theorycrafting
On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote: If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy
Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make.
I assumed you'd be one of those clueless theorycrafters blaming that loss on flash being stupid and not massing vultures off his 2 factories when he was vs'ing dragoon reaver. Even if he somehow holds the zealots he has a tank count of 1-2 vs a 3 base toss and a grand total of 2 factories (i.e. dead). I'm done with this thread anyway, there's clearly no convincing you as you seem to have only the most basic understanding of how the game works.
I'm afraid the clueless theorycrafter here is you, since that's not the purpose of using vultures in that game. Just 2 or 3 vultures lay mines in front of his nat would most probably prevent the fatal zealot stream into his base, causing the GG. The thing he needs is some mines, he doesn't need to mass vultures. But let's just stop at that. I also want to end the argument here, since you keep ignoring every facts I present and this will lead to nowhere.
Your answer to everything seems to be get really behind, get vultures, mine up the nat and hope your opponent is D-
And yours seems to be ignoring everything else other than your opinion. Not to mention the one playing here is Flash.
You're the one saying what Flash did was wrong. Also I'm listening to everyone else's opinion (Turbovolver, Caihead, Endy and others), the only one in disagreement is yours.
.... What I meant was it's Flash defending if he did choose not to commit to bio. And I have seen several times in this forum alone when not everybody has the same opinion; when few disagree with the majority.
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god
Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning.
He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest?
How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So?
Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"?
Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation.
Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will.
Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat.
I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth.
From Jangbi's interview:
"You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won."
You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms.
My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled?
Your evidence: personal theorycrafting
On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote: If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy
Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make.
I assumed you'd be one of those clueless theorycrafters blaming that loss on flash being stupid and not massing vultures off his 2 factories when he was vs'ing dragoon reaver. Even if he somehow holds the zealots he has a tank count of 1-2 vs a 3 base toss and a grand total of 2 factories (i.e. dead). I'm done with this thread anyway, there's clearly no convincing you as you seem to have only the most basic understanding of how the game works.
I'm afraid the clueless theorycrafter here is you, since that's not the purpose of using vultures in that game. Just 2 or 3 vultures lay mines in front of his nat would most probably prevent the fatal zealot stream into his base, causing the GG. The thing he needs is some mines, he doesn't need to mass vultures. But let's just stop at that. I also want to end the argument here, since you keep ignoring every facts I present and this will lead to nowhere.
Your answer to everything seems to be get really behind, get vultures, mine up the nat and hope your opponent is D-
And yours seems to be ignoring everything else other than your opinion. Not to mention the one playing here is Flash.
... and your ignoring the opinions of two progamers, flash and jangbi.
I don't even know what to say about this. You're just arguing for the sake of argue, not to get to the point....
I'm arguing because Jangbi was right, and that his opinion is proven by logical induction (his experience and logical thought process concluded that he already won when he saw the barracks because he understands PvT from the protoss perspective and knows the terran can't beat his build or transition out of it) as well as empirical evidence (he won). Flash's opinion also matters because he's consistently been the top 1-2 terran in the world as well as having top 1-3 TvP as well as having personal stake in winning the match. Flash's opinion isn't wrong just because he lost a game where he had nothing but bad luck (scouting jangbi last resulting in it being denied, going bio to counter mass dragoons and having jangbi go templar tech) and disadvantages (losing scvs with an econ build, having no time or resources to transition out of his build).
I'm trying to invoke professional (and it is professional, these people are professional gamers at the top of the food chain) credibility to add to my argument. What is your point? I'm backing my opinion up with facts, statistics, build analysis, and showing why from the player's perspective these choices make sense. What you've done is insist on a build switch which is completely illogical.
How about this Alypse. Can you try to find an instance where any player, any player at all, canceled his production / tech structures entirely to start another build at a much delayed timing? Because there are hundreds of instances where players have WON with a weaker or non optimal build that they kept going even after being scouted / countered because they can't transition out of it. Show me something in the contrary.
Please, I am sure I can take everything you just said about logical induction and professional credibility to the side of my argument. I can just say that by Flash's experience and game sense and mechanics and the fact that he is the top T in the world and the consistent top 3 TvP player... so he would be completely fine should he chose the other way. Of course Jangbi could just say anything once he's won. All your facts, stats, analysis... make as much sense as mine do to me. The point is (I don't know how many times I have said this), there's nothing to prove that committing to bio is not the worst way for Flash. and I am suggesting that going for the other strategy would probably result in a higher chance of winning. Why? I explained it before, don't wanna waste my time write it down again.
I don't think I can find a situation like this when a T intends to do a switch the moment he saw the DTs.. But I remember a game between Kal and a T, where T went for bio right from the beginning, got a big advantage but still in the end got mauled by storms and DTs. The only scenario where bio works vs P is when T can deal the fatal blow to P right in the first time, and that goal can only be done when P has no knowledge of the strategy. (Turn vs Stats for example.)
Yea, except you are ignoring something. Factual evidence and game mechanics. This is ridiculous. Flash can't just make any build work, neither can any player, it has to be planned and calculated. It's a calculated decision to continue with the bio mech push. No terran progamer would chose to cancel his barracks unless he was hoping for the protoss to just drop out of the game because he knows that the protoss would either out expand him while he defends for a push that never comes since the protoss has vision of his side of the field via DT's, or the protoss would just outright kill him while there is an absence of units. You can't just use the defense that your opinion makes sense to you when there's already an established answer to the problem because Broodwar is a game with defined mechanics and numeric values. Flash's highest chance of winning was with the bio mech push before storm finishes, he couldn't pull it off.
No it's not, Flash has the lowest chance of winning when commiting to the bio push. It just couldn't works when the opponent already had the knowledge of his intention and had several DTs on guard, plus you don't know is his storms are ready or not. I'm not even talking about the possibility that he will run out of scans even before reaching Jangbi's nat. Anyway it's suicidal for Flash to do so. About the potential all-in, I already discussed it before, and I won't say it again since it looks like you're in a loop.
So you don't think progamers study furiously the timing windows for unit production / research? Storms take a definite amount of time to research and HT's take a definite amount of time to produce and save up enough energy to cast storm. It's even more suicidal to go for a mech switch. Show me one game where a terran does what you are suggesting.
It's all known too well that they practice a lot, but as many have also said, they are not perfect and quite frequently they make mistakes or false judgments or have bad timings. You said it yourself several pages ago, and now you're contradicting yourself. That aside, against DTs and storms AND limited scans, bio is surely a suicide.
It's still the only shot he has,trying to wait and turtle on 2 bases with mines is an even worse option because the protoss can just choose to macro and expand more instead of attacking when he sees that there are vultures instead of a bio attack. It's still the better choice. It's a bad decision on its own but Flash can't escape the position he was already so he needs to make do, same with trying to hold a 9 pool with a 12 hatch. You've already done the build, you can't transition out of it into a more optimal build.
He's definitely not too deep within it and can turn his way back. Why not choose the better tactics when the one you're doing is suicidal, and the other tactics is viable?
You just answered your own question. Flash knew exactly what he was up against and if he thought he could've transitioned to something better he would have. He still chose to go with his bio timing vs templar tech despite it being an uphill battle (maybe 5% or less win rate with their respective builds). Flash still chose biomech as the best tactic because your idiotic mech transition is completely non-viable in that situation. Just because you don't understand why it's not viable doesn't mean it is (multiple people have posted explaining the many ways in which toss destroys a mech transition in the context of that game). Like Caihead I challenge you to find ONE game in the history of bw where multiple production structures and tech are cancelled that late by a progamer to transition into something completely different. Now assuming you can't, your thinking either revolutionizes a 10 year old game or is fundamentally flawed. I'm going with the latter.
And what is it that you just said? Theorycrafting based on nothing at all? Like I said, as much as I can't find a game with such a situation, you have absolutely nothing to prove that the commitment Flash made is the best way possible and instead just ignorantly and mindlessly repeating about your "understanding of the matchup".
I used build analysis, I stated building times for units and buildings, I stated flash's lack of gas mining at the time because of the bio mech build and how it wouldn't be possible to produce a mech army not to mention his lack of mech upgrades, I stated why flash can't use units to scout nor can he use scans to scout and why his scout was denied, I stated research times for key researches like mines / speed / storm, I stated what Flash was able to see at what time and why he would choose to continue the build. I made note of the fact that flash lost scvs with an economical build so jangbi and flash are pretty even on economy especially since flash cut scvs for his build. And I stated what possible transitions the protoss could have gone with at the time based on what flash knows, and how the game would play out if a transition like you said would happen, namely protoss expand at will, crush flash while he has an absence of units, ability to scout and deny aggression or macro instead of aggression if he sees mines with the dt's, deny flash's third indefinitely due to army size. You can see all of that if you just go back a few pages or hell, look in this conversation in spoilers.
And then you tell me it's all based on nothing.
*throws hands up in the air* w/e not worth my time
If it's not worth your time why bother replying in the first place? I've seen way too many times in this thread alone when you contradict yourself.
As I have said over 9000 times, as much as my suggested strategy is theorycrafting, you've got nothing more than that. All your analysis aims to one scenario where Flash would get demolished if he decided not to stick to bio. Mine is to get to the point that not going bio can result in a better situation for him. Yeah, I have read what you wrote many pages back, but you can also see my arguments back there too. I too have analyzed the situation and the build, the timings of units and buildings and pushes and attacks, the fact that T can still cancel the 2 unfinished raxes, that Jangbi opted for non-stop DTs right off the bat, that he was busing building up his expansion even before he used his DTs, that stim research still not done yet, that an all-in from P can be even less likely if Flash can stop P from getting intelligence, since with that build P would not get obs for a while. And most importantly I've said countless times that going bio versus DT-storms combo is the suicidal method for T, especially when P already knew it. And what you did was throwing all the above aside and like "Hell no, my way is the only way that's possible and acceptable."
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god
Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning.
He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest?
How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So?
Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"?
Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation.
Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will.
Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat.
I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth.
From Jangbi's interview:
"You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won."
You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms.
My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled?
Your evidence: personal theorycrafting
On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote: If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy
Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make.
I assumed you'd be one of those clueless theorycrafters blaming that loss on flash being stupid and not massing vultures off his 2 factories when he was vs'ing dragoon reaver. Even if he somehow holds the zealots he has a tank count of 1-2 vs a 3 base toss and a grand total of 2 factories (i.e. dead). I'm done with this thread anyway, there's clearly no convincing you as you seem to have only the most basic understanding of how the game works.
I'm afraid the clueless theorycrafter here is you, since that's not the purpose of using vultures in that game. Just 2 or 3 vultures lay mines in front of his nat would most probably prevent the fatal zealot stream into his base, causing the GG. The thing he needs is some mines, he doesn't need to mass vultures. But let's just stop at that. I also want to end the argument here, since you keep ignoring every facts I present and this will lead to nowhere.
Your answer to everything seems to be get really behind, get vultures, mine up the nat and hope your opponent is D-
And yours seems to be ignoring everything else other than your opinion. Not to mention the one playing here is Flash.
You're the one saying what Flash did was wrong. Also I'm listening to everyone else's opinion (Turbovolver, Caihead, Endy and others), the only one in disagreement is yours.
.... What I meant was it's Flash defending if he did choose not to commit to bio. And I have seen several times in this forum alone when not everybody has the same opinion; when few disagree with the majority.
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god
Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning.
He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest?
How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So?
Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"?
Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation.
Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will.
Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat.
I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth.
From Jangbi's interview:
"You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won."
You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms.
My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled?
Your evidence: personal theorycrafting
On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote: If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy
Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make.
I assumed you'd be one of those clueless theorycrafters blaming that loss on flash being stupid and not massing vultures off his 2 factories when he was vs'ing dragoon reaver. Even if he somehow holds the zealots he has a tank count of 1-2 vs a 3 base toss and a grand total of 2 factories (i.e. dead). I'm done with this thread anyway, there's clearly no convincing you as you seem to have only the most basic understanding of how the game works.
I'm afraid the clueless theorycrafter here is you, since that's not the purpose of using vultures in that game. Just 2 or 3 vultures lay mines in front of his nat would most probably prevent the fatal zealot stream into his base, causing the GG. The thing he needs is some mines, he doesn't need to mass vultures. But let's just stop at that. I also want to end the argument here, since you keep ignoring every facts I present and this will lead to nowhere.
Your answer to everything seems to be get really behind, get vultures, mine up the nat and hope your opponent is D-
And yours seems to be ignoring everything else other than your opinion. Not to mention the one playing here is Flash.
... and your ignoring the opinions of two progamers, flash and jangbi.
I don't even know what to say about this. You're just arguing for the sake of argue, not to get to the point....
I'm arguing because Jangbi was right, and that his opinion is proven by logical induction (his experience and logical thought process concluded that he already won when he saw the barracks because he understands PvT from the protoss perspective and knows the terran can't beat his build or transition out of it) as well as empirical evidence (he won). Flash's opinion also matters because he's consistently been the top 1-2 terran in the world as well as having top 1-3 TvP as well as having personal stake in winning the match. Flash's opinion isn't wrong just because he lost a game where he had nothing but bad luck (scouting jangbi last resulting in it being denied, going bio to counter mass dragoons and having jangbi go templar tech) and disadvantages (losing scvs with an econ build, having no time or resources to transition out of his build).
I'm trying to invoke professional (and it is professional, these people are professional gamers at the top of the food chain) credibility to add to my argument. What is your point? I'm backing my opinion up with facts, statistics, build analysis, and showing why from the player's perspective these choices make sense. What you've done is insist on a build switch which is completely illogical.
How about this Alypse. Can you try to find an instance where any player, any player at all, canceled his production / tech structures entirely to start another build at a much delayed timing? Because there are hundreds of instances where players have WON with a weaker or non optimal build that they kept going even after being scouted / countered because they can't transition out of it. Show me something in the contrary.
Please, I am sure I can take everything you just said about logical induction and professional credibility to the side of my argument. I can just say that by Flash's experience and game sense and mechanics and the fact that he is the top T in the world and the consistent top 3 TvP player... so he would be completely fine should he chose the other way. Of course Jangbi could just say anything once he's won. All your facts, stats, analysis... make as much sense as mine do to me. The point is (I don't know how many times I have said this), there's nothing to prove that committing to bio is not the worst way for Flash. and I am suggesting that going for the other strategy would probably result in a higher chance of winning. Why? I explained it before, don't wanna waste my time write it down again.
I don't think I can find a situation like this when a T intends to do a switch the moment he saw the DTs.. But I remember a game between Kal and a T, where T went for bio right from the beginning, got a big advantage but still in the end got mauled by storms and DTs. The only scenario where bio works vs P is when T can deal the fatal blow to P right in the first time, and that goal can only be done when P has no knowledge of the strategy. (Turn vs Stats for example.)
Yea, except you are ignoring something. Factual evidence and game mechanics. This is ridiculous. Flash can't just make any build work, neither can any player, it has to be planned and calculated. It's a calculated decision to continue with the bio mech push. No terran progamer would chose to cancel his barracks unless he was hoping for the protoss to just drop out of the game because he knows that the protoss would either out expand him while he defends for a push that never comes since the protoss has vision of his side of the field via DT's, or the protoss would just outright kill him while there is an absence of units. You can't just use the defense that your opinion makes sense to you when there's already an established answer to the problem because Broodwar is a game with defined mechanics and numeric values. Flash's highest chance of winning was with the bio mech push before storm finishes, he couldn't pull it off.
No it's not, Flash has the lowest chance of winning when commiting to the bio push. It just couldn't works when the opponent already had the knowledge of his intention and had several DTs on guard, plus you don't know is his storms are ready or not. I'm not even talking about the possibility that he will run out of scans even before reaching Jangbi's nat. Anyway it's suicidal for Flash to do so. About the potential all-in, I already discussed it before, and I won't say it again since it looks like you're in a loop.
So you don't think progamers study furiously the timing windows for unit production / research? Storms take a definite amount of time to research and HT's take a definite amount of time to produce and save up enough energy to cast storm. It's even more suicidal to go for a mech switch. Show me one game where a terran does what you are suggesting.
It's all known too well that they practice a lot, but as many have also said, they are not perfect and quite frequently they make mistakes or false judgments or have bad timings. You said it yourself several pages ago, and now you're contradicting yourself. That aside, against DTs and storms AND limited scans, bio is surely a suicide.
It's still the only shot he has,trying to wait and turtle on 2 bases with mines is an even worse option because the protoss can just choose to macro and expand more instead of attacking when he sees that there are vultures instead of a bio attack. It's still the better choice. It's a bad decision on its own but Flash can't escape the position he was already so he needs to make do, same with trying to hold a 9 pool with a 12 hatch. You've already done the build, you can't transition out of it into a more optimal build.
He's definitely not too deep within it and can turn his way back. Why not choose the better tactics when the one you're doing is suicidal, and the other tactics is viable?
You just answered your own question. Flash knew exactly what he was up against and if he thought he could've transitioned to something better he would have. He still chose to go with his bio timing vs templar tech despite it being an uphill battle (maybe 5% or less win rate with their respective builds). Flash still chose biomech as the best tactic because your idiotic mech transition is completely non-viable in that situation. Just because you don't understand why it's not viable doesn't mean it is (multiple people have posted explaining the many ways in which toss destroys a mech transition in the context of that game). Like Caihead I challenge you to find ONE game in the history of bw where multiple production structures and tech are cancelled that late by a progamer to transition into something completely different. Now assuming you can't, your thinking either revolutionizes a 10 year old game or is fundamentally flawed. I'm going with the latter.
And what is it that you just said? Theorycrafting based on nothing at all? Like I said, as much as I can't find a game with such a situation, you have absolutely nothing to prove that the commitment Flash made is the best way possible and instead just ignorantly and mindlessly repeating about your "understanding of the matchup".
I used build analysis, I stated building times for units and buildings, I stated flash's lack of gas mining at the time because of the bio mech build and how it wouldn't be possible to produce a mech army not to mention his lack of mech upgrades, I stated why flash can't use units to scout nor can he use scans to scout and why his scout was denied, I stated research times for key researches like mines / speed / storm, I stated what Flash was able to see at what time and why he would choose to continue the build. I made note of the fact that flash lost scvs with an economical build so jangbi and flash are pretty even on economy especially since flash cut scvs for his build. And I stated what possible transitions the protoss could have gone with at the time based on what flash knows, and how the game would play out if a transition like you said would happen, namely protoss expand at will, crush flash while he has an absence of units, ability to scout and deny aggression or macro instead of aggression if he sees mines with the dt's, deny flash's third indefinitely due to army size. You can see all of that if you just go back a few pages or hell, look in this conversation in spoilers.
And then you tell me it's all based on nothing.
*throws hands up in the air* w/e not worth my time
If it's not worth your time why bother replying in the first place? I've seen way too many times in this thread alone when you contradict yourself.
As I have said over 9000 times, as much as my suggested strategy is theorycrafting, you've got nothing more than that. All your analysis aims to one scenario where Flash would get demolished if he decided not to stick to bio. Mine is to get to the point that not going bio can result in a better situation for him. Yeah, I have read what you wrote many pages back, but you can also see my arguments back there too. I too have analyzed the situation and the build, the timings of units and buildings and pushes and attacks, the fact that T can still cancel the 2 unfinished raxes, that Jangbi opted for non-stop DTs right off the bat, that he was busing building up his expansion even before he used his DTs, that stim research still not done yet, that an all-in from P can be even less likely if Flash can stop P from getting intelligence, since with that build P would not get obs for a while. And most importantly I've said countless times that going bio versus DT-storms combo is the suicidal method for T, especially when P already knew it. And what you did was throwing all the above aside and like "Hell no, my way is the only way that's possible and acceptable."
The main problem is your theorycrafting seems to be based on a very superficial understanding of the matchup whereas Caihead's actually makes sense. It's not even resources that are the main issue (though 3 medics + the scv cut and losses + the rax cancels are substantial setbacks), it's timing. Such late factories just don't give flash options to punish the toss third or take one of his own. You might as well just forfeit. You can keep calling us ignorant and stating your opinion is just as valid as much as you like but it's just not. You can't find a single game as an example. You wouldn't be able to find a pro or high level amateur player that thinks your idea isn't retarded. Your thinking just isn't viable in an actual game of BW, especially one against the best current PvT on the planet or just about any P that knows what they're doing. Noone in this thread has thought your idea was a good one. What's your highest ICCUP rank, and with what race? Do you actually play this game? How are you this stubborn and ignorant... I thought you might be trolling but I guess you've somehow deluded yourself into thinking you know what you're talking about...
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god
Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning.
He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest?
How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So?
Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"?
Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation.
Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will.
Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat.
I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth.
From Jangbi's interview:
"You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won."
You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms.
My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled?
Your evidence: personal theorycrafting
On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote: If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy
Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make.
I assumed you'd be one of those clueless theorycrafters blaming that loss on flash being stupid and not massing vultures off his 2 factories when he was vs'ing dragoon reaver. Even if he somehow holds the zealots he has a tank count of 1-2 vs a 3 base toss and a grand total of 2 factories (i.e. dead). I'm done with this thread anyway, there's clearly no convincing you as you seem to have only the most basic understanding of how the game works.
I'm afraid the clueless theorycrafter here is you, since that's not the purpose of using vultures in that game. Just 2 or 3 vultures lay mines in front of his nat would most probably prevent the fatal zealot stream into his base, causing the GG. The thing he needs is some mines, he doesn't need to mass vultures. But let's just stop at that. I also want to end the argument here, since you keep ignoring every facts I present and this will lead to nowhere.
Your answer to everything seems to be get really behind, get vultures, mine up the nat and hope your opponent is D-
And yours seems to be ignoring everything else other than your opinion. Not to mention the one playing here is Flash.
You're the one saying what Flash did was wrong. Also I'm listening to everyone else's opinion (Turbovolver, Caihead, Endy and others), the only one in disagreement is yours.
.... What I meant was it's Flash defending if he did choose not to commit to bio. And I have seen several times in this forum alone when not everybody has the same opinion; when few disagree with the majority.
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god
Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning.
He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest?
How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So?
Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"?
Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation.
Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will.
Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat.
I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth.
From Jangbi's interview:
"You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won."
You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms.
My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled?
Your evidence: personal theorycrafting
On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote: If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy
Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make.
I assumed you'd be one of those clueless theorycrafters blaming that loss on flash being stupid and not massing vultures off his 2 factories when he was vs'ing dragoon reaver. Even if he somehow holds the zealots he has a tank count of 1-2 vs a 3 base toss and a grand total of 2 factories (i.e. dead). I'm done with this thread anyway, there's clearly no convincing you as you seem to have only the most basic understanding of how the game works.
I'm afraid the clueless theorycrafter here is you, since that's not the purpose of using vultures in that game. Just 2 or 3 vultures lay mines in front of his nat would most probably prevent the fatal zealot stream into his base, causing the GG. The thing he needs is some mines, he doesn't need to mass vultures. But let's just stop at that. I also want to end the argument here, since you keep ignoring every facts I present and this will lead to nowhere.
Your answer to everything seems to be get really behind, get vultures, mine up the nat and hope your opponent is D-
And yours seems to be ignoring everything else other than your opinion. Not to mention the one playing here is Flash.
... and your ignoring the opinions of two progamers, flash and jangbi.
I don't even know what to say about this. You're just arguing for the sake of argue, not to get to the point....
I'm arguing because Jangbi was right, and that his opinion is proven by logical induction (his experience and logical thought process concluded that he already won when he saw the barracks because he understands PvT from the protoss perspective and knows the terran can't beat his build or transition out of it) as well as empirical evidence (he won). Flash's opinion also matters because he's consistently been the top 1-2 terran in the world as well as having top 1-3 TvP as well as having personal stake in winning the match. Flash's opinion isn't wrong just because he lost a game where he had nothing but bad luck (scouting jangbi last resulting in it being denied, going bio to counter mass dragoons and having jangbi go templar tech) and disadvantages (losing scvs with an econ build, having no time or resources to transition out of his build).
I'm trying to invoke professional (and it is professional, these people are professional gamers at the top of the food chain) credibility to add to my argument. What is your point? I'm backing my opinion up with facts, statistics, build analysis, and showing why from the player's perspective these choices make sense. What you've done is insist on a build switch which is completely illogical.
How about this Alypse. Can you try to find an instance where any player, any player at all, canceled his production / tech structures entirely to start another build at a much delayed timing? Because there are hundreds of instances where players have WON with a weaker or non optimal build that they kept going even after being scouted / countered because they can't transition out of it. Show me something in the contrary.
Please, I am sure I can take everything you just said about logical induction and professional credibility to the side of my argument. I can just say that by Flash's experience and game sense and mechanics and the fact that he is the top T in the world and the consistent top 3 TvP player... so he would be completely fine should he chose the other way. Of course Jangbi could just say anything once he's won. All your facts, stats, analysis... make as much sense as mine do to me. The point is (I don't know how many times I have said this), there's nothing to prove that committing to bio is not the worst way for Flash. and I am suggesting that going for the other strategy would probably result in a higher chance of winning. Why? I explained it before, don't wanna waste my time write it down again.
I don't think I can find a situation like this when a T intends to do a switch the moment he saw the DTs.. But I remember a game between Kal and a T, where T went for bio right from the beginning, got a big advantage but still in the end got mauled by storms and DTs. The only scenario where bio works vs P is when T can deal the fatal blow to P right in the first time, and that goal can only be done when P has no knowledge of the strategy. (Turn vs Stats for example.)
Yea, except you are ignoring something. Factual evidence and game mechanics. This is ridiculous. Flash can't just make any build work, neither can any player, it has to be planned and calculated. It's a calculated decision to continue with the bio mech push. No terran progamer would chose to cancel his barracks unless he was hoping for the protoss to just drop out of the game because he knows that the protoss would either out expand him while he defends for a push that never comes since the protoss has vision of his side of the field via DT's, or the protoss would just outright kill him while there is an absence of units. You can't just use the defense that your opinion makes sense to you when there's already an established answer to the problem because Broodwar is a game with defined mechanics and numeric values. Flash's highest chance of winning was with the bio mech push before storm finishes, he couldn't pull it off.
No it's not, Flash has the lowest chance of winning when commiting to the bio push. It just couldn't works when the opponent already had the knowledge of his intention and had several DTs on guard, plus you don't know is his storms are ready or not. I'm not even talking about the possibility that he will run out of scans even before reaching Jangbi's nat. Anyway it's suicidal for Flash to do so. About the potential all-in, I already discussed it before, and I won't say it again since it looks like you're in a loop.
So you don't think progamers study furiously the timing windows for unit production / research? Storms take a definite amount of time to research and HT's take a definite amount of time to produce and save up enough energy to cast storm. It's even more suicidal to go for a mech switch. Show me one game where a terran does what you are suggesting.
It's all known too well that they practice a lot, but as many have also said, they are not perfect and quite frequently they make mistakes or false judgments or have bad timings. You said it yourself several pages ago, and now you're contradicting yourself. That aside, against DTs and storms AND limited scans, bio is surely a suicide.
It's still the only shot he has,trying to wait and turtle on 2 bases with mines is an even worse option because the protoss can just choose to macro and expand more instead of attacking when he sees that there are vultures instead of a bio attack. It's still the better choice. It's a bad decision on its own but Flash can't escape the position he was already so he needs to make do, same with trying to hold a 9 pool with a 12 hatch. You've already done the build, you can't transition out of it into a more optimal build.
He's definitely not too deep within it and can turn his way back. Why not choose the better tactics when the one you're doing is suicidal, and the other tactics is viable?
You just answered your own question. Flash knew exactly what he was up against and if he thought he could've transitioned to something better he would have. He still chose to go with his bio timing vs templar tech despite it being an uphill battle (maybe 5% or less win rate with their respective builds). Flash still chose biomech as the best tactic because your idiotic mech transition is completely non-viable in that situation. Just because you don't understand why it's not viable doesn't mean it is (multiple people have posted explaining the many ways in which toss destroys a mech transition in the context of that game). Like Caihead I challenge you to find ONE game in the history of bw where multiple production structures and tech are cancelled that late by a progamer to transition into something completely different. Now assuming you can't, your thinking either revolutionizes a 10 year old game or is fundamentally flawed. I'm going with the latter.
And what is it that you just said? Theorycrafting based on nothing at all? Like I said, as much as I can't find a game with such a situation, you have absolutely nothing to prove that the commitment Flash made is the best way possible and instead just ignorantly and mindlessly repeating about your "understanding of the matchup".
I used build analysis, I stated building times for units and buildings, I stated flash's lack of gas mining at the time because of the bio mech build and how it wouldn't be possible to produce a mech army not to mention his lack of mech upgrades, I stated why flash can't use units to scout nor can he use scans to scout and why his scout was denied, I stated research times for key researches like mines / speed / storm, I stated what Flash was able to see at what time and why he would choose to continue the build. I made note of the fact that flash lost scvs with an economical build so jangbi and flash are pretty even on economy especially since flash cut scvs for his build. And I stated what possible transitions the protoss could have gone with at the time based on what flash knows, and how the game would play out if a transition like you said would happen, namely protoss expand at will, crush flash while he has an absence of units, ability to scout and deny aggression or macro instead of aggression if he sees mines with the dt's, deny flash's third indefinitely due to army size. You can see all of that if you just go back a few pages or hell, look in this conversation in spoilers.
And then you tell me it's all based on nothing.
*throws hands up in the air* w/e not worth my time
If it's not worth your time why bother replying in the first place? I've seen way too many times in this thread alone when you contradict yourself.
As I have said over 9000 times, as much as my suggested strategy is theorycrafting, you've got nothing more than that. All your analysis aims to one scenario where Flash would get demolished if he decided not to stick to bio. Mine is to get to the point that not going bio can result in a better situation for him. Yeah, I have read what you wrote many pages back, but you can also see my arguments back there too. I too have analyzed the situation and the build, the timings of units and buildings and pushes and attacks, the fact that T can still cancel the 2 unfinished raxes, that Jangbi opted for non-stop DTs right off the bat, that he was busing building up his expansion even before he used his DTs, that stim research still not done yet, that an all-in from P can be even less likely if Flash can stop P from getting intelligence, since with that build P would not get obs for a while. And most importantly I've said countless times that going bio versus DT-storms combo is the suicidal method for T, especially when P already knew it. And what you did was throwing all the above aside and like "Hell no, my way is the only way that's possible and acceptable."
The main problem is your theorycrafting seems to be based on a very superficial understanding of the matchup whereas Caihead's actually makes sense. It's not even resources that are the main issue (though 3 medics + the scv cut and losses + the rax cancels are substantial setbacks), it's timing. Such late factories just don't give flash options to punish the toss third or take one of his own. You might as well just forfeit. You can keep calling us ignorant and stating your opinion is just as valid as much as you like but it's just not. You can't find a single game as an example. You wouldn't be able to find a pro or high level amateur player that thinks your idea isn't retarded. Your thinking just isn't viable in an actual game of BW, especially one against the best current PvT on the planet or just about any P that knows what they're doing. Noone in this thread has thought your idea was a good one. What's your highest ICCUP rank, and with what race? Do you actually play this game? How are you this stubborn and ignorant... I thought you might be trolling but I guess you've somehow deluded yourself into thinking you know what you're talking about...
Again, you yourself can't find a game where the situation doesn't work so you are in no position to criticize me. I on the other hand think your concept of "just stick with it no matter how suicidal it is" is no less idiotic than how you think mine is. It also shows how ignorant you are.
Flash got raped pure and simple. His build failed when he went for the late academy and got punked by the goons at the bunker. When he pulled the scv for the bunker it set his com station back. You can tell that his build dwouldve caught the dt if he didnt have to pull his scv. Either way if jangbi didnt go for dt, I believe he would've still won with reaver if his controls are on par with Best. Remember Best defended 2 bionic rush from classic and Midias 2 PL ago. Flash should've canceled his 2 barricks, gone for factories, and hard turtle. He's won game where everyone thought he lost by just turtling.
Alypse, even as Caihead's mortal enemy I must tell you that he is making more sense than you here.
I do like your point just now though: "If Flash sticking with bio was so suicidal, how is it any different to trying a desperate, delayed mech switch?"
That's a decent point, but I think the fact that Flash managed to make a decent push on the map to try to beat storm timing (and was held back by nice DT play and then a great storm when the tech did kick in) meant he lost.
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god
Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning.
He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest?
How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So?
Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"?
Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation.
Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will.
Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat.
I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth.
From Jangbi's interview:
"You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won."
You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms.
My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled?
Your evidence: personal theorycrafting
On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote: If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy
Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make.
I assumed you'd be one of those clueless theorycrafters blaming that loss on flash being stupid and not massing vultures off his 2 factories when he was vs'ing dragoon reaver. Even if he somehow holds the zealots he has a tank count of 1-2 vs a 3 base toss and a grand total of 2 factories (i.e. dead). I'm done with this thread anyway, there's clearly no convincing you as you seem to have only the most basic understanding of how the game works.
I'm afraid the clueless theorycrafter here is you, since that's not the purpose of using vultures in that game. Just 2 or 3 vultures lay mines in front of his nat would most probably prevent the fatal zealot stream into his base, causing the GG. The thing he needs is some mines, he doesn't need to mass vultures. But let's just stop at that. I also want to end the argument here, since you keep ignoring every facts I present and this will lead to nowhere.
Your answer to everything seems to be get really behind, get vultures, mine up the nat and hope your opponent is D-
And yours seems to be ignoring everything else other than your opinion. Not to mention the one playing here is Flash.
You're the one saying what Flash did was wrong. Also I'm listening to everyone else's opinion (Turbovolver, Caihead, Endy and others), the only one in disagreement is yours.
.... What I meant was it's Flash defending if he did choose not to commit to bio. And I have seen several times in this forum alone when not everybody has the same opinion; when few disagree with the majority.
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god
Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning.
He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest?
How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So?
Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"?
Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation.
Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will.
Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat.
I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth.
From Jangbi's interview:
"You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won."
You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms.
My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled?
Your evidence: personal theorycrafting
On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote: If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy
Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make.
I assumed you'd be one of those clueless theorycrafters blaming that loss on flash being stupid and not massing vultures off his 2 factories when he was vs'ing dragoon reaver. Even if he somehow holds the zealots he has a tank count of 1-2 vs a 3 base toss and a grand total of 2 factories (i.e. dead). I'm done with this thread anyway, there's clearly no convincing you as you seem to have only the most basic understanding of how the game works.
I'm afraid the clueless theorycrafter here is you, since that's not the purpose of using vultures in that game. Just 2 or 3 vultures lay mines in front of his nat would most probably prevent the fatal zealot stream into his base, causing the GG. The thing he needs is some mines, he doesn't need to mass vultures. But let's just stop at that. I also want to end the argument here, since you keep ignoring every facts I present and this will lead to nowhere.
Your answer to everything seems to be get really behind, get vultures, mine up the nat and hope your opponent is D-
And yours seems to be ignoring everything else other than your opinion. Not to mention the one playing here is Flash.
... and your ignoring the opinions of two progamers, flash and jangbi.
I don't even know what to say about this. You're just arguing for the sake of argue, not to get to the point....
I'm arguing because Jangbi was right, and that his opinion is proven by logical induction (his experience and logical thought process concluded that he already won when he saw the barracks because he understands PvT from the protoss perspective and knows the terran can't beat his build or transition out of it) as well as empirical evidence (he won). Flash's opinion also matters because he's consistently been the top 1-2 terran in the world as well as having top 1-3 TvP as well as having personal stake in winning the match. Flash's opinion isn't wrong just because he lost a game where he had nothing but bad luck (scouting jangbi last resulting in it being denied, going bio to counter mass dragoons and having jangbi go templar tech) and disadvantages (losing scvs with an econ build, having no time or resources to transition out of his build).
I'm trying to invoke professional (and it is professional, these people are professional gamers at the top of the food chain) credibility to add to my argument. What is your point? I'm backing my opinion up with facts, statistics, build analysis, and showing why from the player's perspective these choices make sense. What you've done is insist on a build switch which is completely illogical.
How about this Alypse. Can you try to find an instance where any player, any player at all, canceled his production / tech structures entirely to start another build at a much delayed timing? Because there are hundreds of instances where players have WON with a weaker or non optimal build that they kept going even after being scouted / countered because they can't transition out of it. Show me something in the contrary.
Please, I am sure I can take everything you just said about logical induction and professional credibility to the side of my argument. I can just say that by Flash's experience and game sense and mechanics and the fact that he is the top T in the world and the consistent top 3 TvP player... so he would be completely fine should he chose the other way. Of course Jangbi could just say anything once he's won. All your facts, stats, analysis... make as much sense as mine do to me. The point is (I don't know how many times I have said this), there's nothing to prove that committing to bio is not the worst way for Flash. and I am suggesting that going for the other strategy would probably result in a higher chance of winning. Why? I explained it before, don't wanna waste my time write it down again.
I don't think I can find a situation like this when a T intends to do a switch the moment he saw the DTs.. But I remember a game between Kal and a T, where T went for bio right from the beginning, got a big advantage but still in the end got mauled by storms and DTs. The only scenario where bio works vs P is when T can deal the fatal blow to P right in the first time, and that goal can only be done when P has no knowledge of the strategy. (Turn vs Stats for example.)
Yea, except you are ignoring something. Factual evidence and game mechanics. This is ridiculous. Flash can't just make any build work, neither can any player, it has to be planned and calculated. It's a calculated decision to continue with the bio mech push. No terran progamer would chose to cancel his barracks unless he was hoping for the protoss to just drop out of the game because he knows that the protoss would either out expand him while he defends for a push that never comes since the protoss has vision of his side of the field via DT's, or the protoss would just outright kill him while there is an absence of units. You can't just use the defense that your opinion makes sense to you when there's already an established answer to the problem because Broodwar is a game with defined mechanics and numeric values. Flash's highest chance of winning was with the bio mech push before storm finishes, he couldn't pull it off.
No it's not, Flash has the lowest chance of winning when commiting to the bio push. It just couldn't works when the opponent already had the knowledge of his intention and had several DTs on guard, plus you don't know is his storms are ready or not. I'm not even talking about the possibility that he will run out of scans even before reaching Jangbi's nat. Anyway it's suicidal for Flash to do so. About the potential all-in, I already discussed it before, and I won't say it again since it looks like you're in a loop.
So you don't think progamers study furiously the timing windows for unit production / research? Storms take a definite amount of time to research and HT's take a definite amount of time to produce and save up enough energy to cast storm. It's even more suicidal to go for a mech switch. Show me one game where a terran does what you are suggesting.
It's all known too well that they practice a lot, but as many have also said, they are not perfect and quite frequently they make mistakes or false judgments or have bad timings. You said it yourself several pages ago, and now you're contradicting yourself. That aside, against DTs and storms AND limited scans, bio is surely a suicide.
It's still the only shot he has,trying to wait and turtle on 2 bases with mines is an even worse option because the protoss can just choose to macro and expand more instead of attacking when he sees that there are vultures instead of a bio attack. It's still the better choice. It's a bad decision on its own but Flash can't escape the position he was already so he needs to make do, same with trying to hold a 9 pool with a 12 hatch. You've already done the build, you can't transition out of it into a more optimal build.
He's definitely not too deep within it and can turn his way back. Why not choose the better tactics when the one you're doing is suicidal, and the other tactics is viable?
You just answered your own question. Flash knew exactly what he was up against and if he thought he could've transitioned to something better he would have. He still chose to go with his bio timing vs templar tech despite it being an uphill battle (maybe 5% or less win rate with their respective builds). Flash still chose biomech as the best tactic because your idiotic mech transition is completely non-viable in that situation. Just because you don't understand why it's not viable doesn't mean it is (multiple people have posted explaining the many ways in which toss destroys a mech transition in the context of that game). Like Caihead I challenge you to find ONE game in the history of bw where multiple production structures and tech are cancelled that late by a progamer to transition into something completely different. Now assuming you can't, your thinking either revolutionizes a 10 year old game or is fundamentally flawed. I'm going with the latter.
And what is it that you just said? Theorycrafting based on nothing at all? Like I said, as much as I can't find a game with such a situation, you have absolutely nothing to prove that the commitment Flash made is the best way possible and instead just ignorantly and mindlessly repeating about your "understanding of the matchup".
I used build analysis, I stated building times for units and buildings, I stated flash's lack of gas mining at the time because of the bio mech build and how it wouldn't be possible to produce a mech army not to mention his lack of mech upgrades, I stated why flash can't use units to scout nor can he use scans to scout and why his scout was denied, I stated research times for key researches like mines / speed / storm, I stated what Flash was able to see at what time and why he would choose to continue the build. I made note of the fact that flash lost scvs with an economical build so jangbi and flash are pretty even on economy especially since flash cut scvs for his build. And I stated what possible transitions the protoss could have gone with at the time based on what flash knows, and how the game would play out if a transition like you said would happen, namely protoss expand at will, crush flash while he has an absence of units, ability to scout and deny aggression or macro instead of aggression if he sees mines with the dt's, deny flash's third indefinitely due to army size. You can see all of that if you just go back a few pages or hell, look in this conversation in spoilers.
And then you tell me it's all based on nothing.
*throws hands up in the air* w/e not worth my time
If it's not worth your time why bother replying in the first place? I've seen way too many times in this thread alone when you contradict yourself.
As I have said over 9000 times, as much as my suggested strategy is theorycrafting, you've got nothing more than that. All your analysis aims to one scenario where Flash would get demolished if he decided not to stick to bio. Mine is to get to the point that not going bio can result in a better situation for him. Yeah, I have read what you wrote many pages back, but you can also see my arguments back there too. I too have analyzed the situation and the build, the timings of units and buildings and pushes and attacks, the fact that T can still cancel the 2 unfinished raxes, that Jangbi opted for non-stop DTs right off the bat, that he was busing building up his expansion even before he used his DTs, that stim research still not done yet, that an all-in from P can be even less likely if Flash can stop P from getting intelligence, since with that build P would not get obs for a while. And most importantly I've said countless times that going bio versus DT-storms combo is the suicidal method for T, especially when P already knew it. And what you did was throwing all the above aside and like "Hell no, my way is the only way that's possible and acceptable."
The main problem is your theorycrafting seems to be based on a very superficial understanding of the matchup whereas Caihead's actually makes sense. It's not even resources that are the main issue (though 3 medics + the scv cut and losses + the rax cancels are substantial setbacks), it's timing. Such late factories just don't give flash options to punish the toss third or take one of his own. You might as well just forfeit. You can keep calling us ignorant and stating your opinion is just as valid as much as you like but it's just not. You can't find a single game as an example. You wouldn't be able to find a pro or high level amateur player that thinks your idea isn't retarded. Your thinking just isn't viable in an actual game of BW, especially one against the best current PvT on the planet or just about any P that knows what they're doing. Noone in this thread has thought your idea was a good one. What's your highest ICCUP rank, and with what race? Do you actually play this game? How are you this stubborn and ignorant... I thought you might be trolling but I guess you've somehow deluded yourself into thinking you know what you're talking about...
Again, you yourself can't find a game where the situation doesn't work so you are in no position to criticize me. I on the other hand think your concept of "just stick with it no matter how suicidal it is" is no less idiotic than how you think mine is. It also shows how ignorant you are.
i think Leta vs Jaedong on some map fits 'why you cant just transition'. It was a game where Leta opened with mech intentionally and then make a bio switch except that jaedong sac'd an ovie to scout the raxes and killed Leta then and there. I have a fuzzy memory and cant actually make a conclusion.
On May 25 2012 12:29 Turbovolver wrote: Alypse, even as Caihead's mortal enemy I must tell you that he is making more sense than you here.
I do like your point just now though: "If Flash sticking with bio was so suicidal, how is it any different to trying a desperate, delayed mech switch?"
That's a decent point, but I think the fact that Flash managed to make a decent push on the map to try to beat storm timing (and was held back by nice DT play and then a great storm when the tech did kick in) meant he lost.
I know mate, the rarely seen/unorthodox strategy tends to seem to make less sense than the long know traditional ones. I don't say that I am absolutely certain about Flash's chance of winning going with that one, but the factors that make bio the worst choice for T in this case are too clear: DT + Storms + limited scans. This combination always rape bio pushes. I think even with storms not done for Jangbi yet, Flash's chance of breaking Jangbi's nat is close to nil, since P could just send one DT at one time and wear out comsat energies.
@icystorage: Didn't Leta intend to go for bio-mech right from beginning in that game?
thats why flash tried to set up turrets on the way to jangbi's nat. The chance of pulling off a miracle bunker tank contain was extremely low, but it was the only shot. If you cant understand this, you have no idea about the game you've been watching all this time.
This is pro level SC. Not some D- shit. Sure if im your opponent, you might be able to turtle up on 2 base and push out at some point and catch me off guard. Too bad jangbi is not terrible at this game.
On May 25 2012 13:08 gameguard wrote: thats why flash tried to set up turrets on the way to jangbi's nat. The chance of pulling off a miracle bunker tank contain was extremely low, but it was the only shot. If you cant understand this, you have no idea about the game you've been watching all this time.
This is pro level SC. Not some D- shit. Sure if im your opponent, you might be able to turtle up on 2 base and push out at some point and catch me off guard. Too bad jangbi is not terrible at this game.
Yeah he tried, and look what happened. By the time Flash could reach the nat with turrets, Jangbi already had several storms at his disposal.
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god
Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning.
He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest?
How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So?
Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"?
Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation.
Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will.
Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat.
I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth.
From Jangbi's interview:
"You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won."
You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms.
My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled?
Your evidence: personal theorycrafting
On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote: If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy
Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make.
I assumed you'd be one of those clueless theorycrafters blaming that loss on flash being stupid and not massing vultures off his 2 factories when he was vs'ing dragoon reaver. Even if he somehow holds the zealots he has a tank count of 1-2 vs a 3 base toss and a grand total of 2 factories (i.e. dead). I'm done with this thread anyway, there's clearly no convincing you as you seem to have only the most basic understanding of how the game works.
I'm afraid the clueless theorycrafter here is you, since that's not the purpose of using vultures in that game. Just 2 or 3 vultures lay mines in front of his nat would most probably prevent the fatal zealot stream into his base, causing the GG. The thing he needs is some mines, he doesn't need to mass vultures. But let's just stop at that. I also want to end the argument here, since you keep ignoring every facts I present and this will lead to nowhere.
Your answer to everything seems to be get really behind, get vultures, mine up the nat and hope your opponent is D-
And yours seems to be ignoring everything else other than your opinion. Not to mention the one playing here is Flash.
You're the one saying what Flash did was wrong. Also I'm listening to everyone else's opinion (Turbovolver, Caihead, Endy and others), the only one in disagreement is yours.
.... What I meant was it's Flash defending if he did choose not to commit to bio. And I have seen several times in this forum alone when not everybody has the same opinion; when few disagree with the majority.
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god
Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning.
He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest?
How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So?
Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"?
Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation.
Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will.
Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat.
I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth.
From Jangbi's interview:
"You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won."
You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms.
My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled?
Your evidence: personal theorycrafting
On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote: If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy
Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make.
I assumed you'd be one of those clueless theorycrafters blaming that loss on flash being stupid and not massing vultures off his 2 factories when he was vs'ing dragoon reaver. Even if he somehow holds the zealots he has a tank count of 1-2 vs a 3 base toss and a grand total of 2 factories (i.e. dead). I'm done with this thread anyway, there's clearly no convincing you as you seem to have only the most basic understanding of how the game works.
I'm afraid the clueless theorycrafter here is you, since that's not the purpose of using vultures in that game. Just 2 or 3 vultures lay mines in front of his nat would most probably prevent the fatal zealot stream into his base, causing the GG. The thing he needs is some mines, he doesn't need to mass vultures. But let's just stop at that. I also want to end the argument here, since you keep ignoring every facts I present and this will lead to nowhere.
Your answer to everything seems to be get really behind, get vultures, mine up the nat and hope your opponent is D-
And yours seems to be ignoring everything else other than your opinion. Not to mention the one playing here is Flash.
... and your ignoring the opinions of two progamers, flash and jangbi.
I don't even know what to say about this. You're just arguing for the sake of argue, not to get to the point....
I'm arguing because Jangbi was right, and that his opinion is proven by logical induction (his experience and logical thought process concluded that he already won when he saw the barracks because he understands PvT from the protoss perspective and knows the terran can't beat his build or transition out of it) as well as empirical evidence (he won). Flash's opinion also matters because he's consistently been the top 1-2 terran in the world as well as having top 1-3 TvP as well as having personal stake in winning the match. Flash's opinion isn't wrong just because he lost a game where he had nothing but bad luck (scouting jangbi last resulting in it being denied, going bio to counter mass dragoons and having jangbi go templar tech) and disadvantages (losing scvs with an econ build, having no time or resources to transition out of his build).
I'm trying to invoke professional (and it is professional, these people are professional gamers at the top of the food chain) credibility to add to my argument. What is your point? I'm backing my opinion up with facts, statistics, build analysis, and showing why from the player's perspective these choices make sense. What you've done is insist on a build switch which is completely illogical.
How about this Alypse. Can you try to find an instance where any player, any player at all, canceled his production / tech structures entirely to start another build at a much delayed timing? Because there are hundreds of instances where players have WON with a weaker or non optimal build that they kept going even after being scouted / countered because they can't transition out of it. Show me something in the contrary.
Please, I am sure I can take everything you just said about logical induction and professional credibility to the side of my argument. I can just say that by Flash's experience and game sense and mechanics and the fact that he is the top T in the world and the consistent top 3 TvP player... so he would be completely fine should he chose the other way. Of course Jangbi could just say anything once he's won. All your facts, stats, analysis... make as much sense as mine do to me. The point is (I don't know how many times I have said this), there's nothing to prove that committing to bio is not the worst way for Flash. and I am suggesting that going for the other strategy would probably result in a higher chance of winning. Why? I explained it before, don't wanna waste my time write it down again.
I don't think I can find a situation like this when a T intends to do a switch the moment he saw the DTs.. But I remember a game between Kal and a T, where T went for bio right from the beginning, got a big advantage but still in the end got mauled by storms and DTs. The only scenario where bio works vs P is when T can deal the fatal blow to P right in the first time, and that goal can only be done when P has no knowledge of the strategy. (Turn vs Stats for example.)
Yea, except you are ignoring something. Factual evidence and game mechanics. This is ridiculous. Flash can't just make any build work, neither can any player, it has to be planned and calculated. It's a calculated decision to continue with the bio mech push. No terran progamer would chose to cancel his barracks unless he was hoping for the protoss to just drop out of the game because he knows that the protoss would either out expand him while he defends for a push that never comes since the protoss has vision of his side of the field via DT's, or the protoss would just outright kill him while there is an absence of units. You can't just use the defense that your opinion makes sense to you when there's already an established answer to the problem because Broodwar is a game with defined mechanics and numeric values. Flash's highest chance of winning was with the bio mech push before storm finishes, he couldn't pull it off.
No it's not, Flash has the lowest chance of winning when commiting to the bio push. It just couldn't works when the opponent already had the knowledge of his intention and had several DTs on guard, plus you don't know is his storms are ready or not. I'm not even talking about the possibility that he will run out of scans even before reaching Jangbi's nat. Anyway it's suicidal for Flash to do so. About the potential all-in, I already discussed it before, and I won't say it again since it looks like you're in a loop.
So you don't think progamers study furiously the timing windows for unit production / research? Storms take a definite amount of time to research and HT's take a definite amount of time to produce and save up enough energy to cast storm. It's even more suicidal to go for a mech switch. Show me one game where a terran does what you are suggesting.
It's all known too well that they practice a lot, but as many have also said, they are not perfect and quite frequently they make mistakes or false judgments or have bad timings. You said it yourself several pages ago, and now you're contradicting yourself. That aside, against DTs and storms AND limited scans, bio is surely a suicide.
It's still the only shot he has,trying to wait and turtle on 2 bases with mines is an even worse option because the protoss can just choose to macro and expand more instead of attacking when he sees that there are vultures instead of a bio attack. It's still the better choice. It's a bad decision on its own but Flash can't escape the position he was already so he needs to make do, same with trying to hold a 9 pool with a 12 hatch. You've already done the build, you can't transition out of it into a more optimal build.
He's definitely not too deep within it and can turn his way back. Why not choose the better tactics when the one you're doing is suicidal, and the other tactics is viable?
You just answered your own question. Flash knew exactly what he was up against and if he thought he could've transitioned to something better he would have. He still chose to go with his bio timing vs templar tech despite it being an uphill battle (maybe 5% or less win rate with their respective builds). Flash still chose biomech as the best tactic because your idiotic mech transition is completely non-viable in that situation. Just because you don't understand why it's not viable doesn't mean it is (multiple people have posted explaining the many ways in which toss destroys a mech transition in the context of that game). Like Caihead I challenge you to find ONE game in the history of bw where multiple production structures and tech are cancelled that late by a progamer to transition into something completely different. Now assuming you can't, your thinking either revolutionizes a 10 year old game or is fundamentally flawed. I'm going with the latter.
And what is it that you just said? Theorycrafting based on nothing at all? Like I said, as much as I can't find a game with such a situation, you have absolutely nothing to prove that the commitment Flash made is the best way possible and instead just ignorantly and mindlessly repeating about your "understanding of the matchup".
I used build analysis, I stated building times for units and buildings, I stated flash's lack of gas mining at the time because of the bio mech build and how it wouldn't be possible to produce a mech army not to mention his lack of mech upgrades, I stated why flash can't use units to scout nor can he use scans to scout and why his scout was denied, I stated research times for key researches like mines / speed / storm, I stated what Flash was able to see at what time and why he would choose to continue the build. I made note of the fact that flash lost scvs with an economical build so jangbi and flash are pretty even on economy especially since flash cut scvs for his build. And I stated what possible transitions the protoss could have gone with at the time based on what flash knows, and how the game would play out if a transition like you said would happen, namely protoss expand at will, crush flash while he has an absence of units, ability to scout and deny aggression or macro instead of aggression if he sees mines with the dt's, deny flash's third indefinitely due to army size. You can see all of that if you just go back a few pages or hell, look in this conversation in spoilers.
And then you tell me it's all based on nothing.
*throws hands up in the air* w/e not worth my time
If it's not worth your time why bother replying in the first place? I've seen way too many times in this thread alone when you contradict yourself.
As I have said over 9000 times, as much as my suggested strategy is theorycrafting, you've got nothing more than that. All your analysis aims to one scenario where Flash would get demolished if he decided not to stick to bio. Mine is to get to the point that not going bio can result in a better situation for him. Yeah, I have read what you wrote many pages back, but you can also see my arguments back there too. I too have analyzed the situation and the build, the timings of units and buildings and pushes and attacks, the fact that T can still cancel the 2 unfinished raxes, that Jangbi opted for non-stop DTs right off the bat, that he was busing building up his expansion even before he used his DTs, that stim research still not done yet, that an all-in from P can be even less likely if Flash can stop P from getting intelligence, since with that build P would not get obs for a while. And most importantly I've said countless times that going bio versus DT-storms combo is the suicidal method for T, especially when P already knew it. And what you did was throwing all the above aside and like "Hell no, my way is the only way that's possible and acceptable."
The main problem is your theorycrafting seems to be based on a very superficial understanding of the matchup whereas Caihead's actually makes sense. It's not even resources that are the main issue (though 3 medics + the scv cut and losses + the rax cancels are substantial setbacks), it's timing. Such late factories just don't give flash options to punish the toss third or take one of his own. You might as well just forfeit. You can keep calling us ignorant and stating your opinion is just as valid as much as you like but it's just not. You can't find a single game as an example. You wouldn't be able to find a pro or high level amateur player that thinks your idea isn't retarded. Your thinking just isn't viable in an actual game of BW, especially one against the best current PvT on the planet or just about any P that knows what they're doing. Noone in this thread has thought your idea was a good one. What's your highest ICCUP rank, and with what race? Do you actually play this game? How are you this stubborn and ignorant... I thought you might be trolling but I guess you've somehow deluded yourself into thinking you know what you're talking about...
Again, you yourself can't find a game where the situation doesn't work so you are in no position to criticize me. I on the other hand think your concept of "just stick with it no matter how suicidal it is" is no less idiotic than how you think mine is. It also shows how ignorant you are.
The burden of proof is on you to show how your proposed strategy actually works. Flash was actually close to pulling the bio off, jangbi was gas stretched and only had the 1 templar out cause he needed enough dt's. Flash wasn't scanning directly on the dt's to kill them but just catching them on the edge to try and get a two for one which would've swung the game. 1 misstep from jangbi and he becomes vulnerable, storm comes 15 seconds later and he's in trouble. Then maybe flash can transition if he kills enough probes at the nat or the nexus. Jangbi played it pretty much perfectly but if he didnt Flash would've at least had a shot.
The reason we can't show you a game where the transition doesn't work is because no pro has done something as bad as what you're suggesting in a live game. Considering the amount of practice games played by pro's and b-teamers I'm pretty sure they would've figured out the viability of cancelling production and tech that late.
You're basically saying Flash was idiotic in his play and that both Flash and Jangbi didn't understand how that situation plays out in a cancel tech scenario.
I noticed you dodged my question and I'm getting the impression you're an armchair theorycrafter. Again, do you actually play this game?
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god
Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning.
He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest?
How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So?
Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"?
Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation.
Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will.
Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat.
I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth.
From Jangbi's interview:
"You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won."
You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms.
My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled?
Your evidence: personal theorycrafting
On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote: If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy
Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make.
I assumed you'd be one of those clueless theorycrafters blaming that loss on flash being stupid and not massing vultures off his 2 factories when he was vs'ing dragoon reaver. Even if he somehow holds the zealots he has a tank count of 1-2 vs a 3 base toss and a grand total of 2 factories (i.e. dead). I'm done with this thread anyway, there's clearly no convincing you as you seem to have only the most basic understanding of how the game works.
I'm afraid the clueless theorycrafter here is you, since that's not the purpose of using vultures in that game. Just 2 or 3 vultures lay mines in front of his nat would most probably prevent the fatal zealot stream into his base, causing the GG. The thing he needs is some mines, he doesn't need to mass vultures. But let's just stop at that. I also want to end the argument here, since you keep ignoring every facts I present and this will lead to nowhere.
Your answer to everything seems to be get really behind, get vultures, mine up the nat and hope your opponent is D-
And yours seems to be ignoring everything else other than your opinion. Not to mention the one playing here is Flash.
You're the one saying what Flash did was wrong. Also I'm listening to everyone else's opinion (Turbovolver, Caihead, Endy and others), the only one in disagreement is yours.
.... What I meant was it's Flash defending if he did choose not to commit to bio. And I have seen several times in this forum alone when not everybody has the same opinion; when few disagree with the majority.
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god
Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning.
He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest?
How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So?
Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"?
Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation.
Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will.
Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat.
I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth.
From Jangbi's interview:
"You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won."
You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms.
My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled?
Your evidence: personal theorycrafting
On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote: If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy
Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make.
I assumed you'd be one of those clueless theorycrafters blaming that loss on flash being stupid and not massing vultures off his 2 factories when he was vs'ing dragoon reaver. Even if he somehow holds the zealots he has a tank count of 1-2 vs a 3 base toss and a grand total of 2 factories (i.e. dead). I'm done with this thread anyway, there's clearly no convincing you as you seem to have only the most basic understanding of how the game works.
I'm afraid the clueless theorycrafter here is you, since that's not the purpose of using vultures in that game. Just 2 or 3 vultures lay mines in front of his nat would most probably prevent the fatal zealot stream into his base, causing the GG. The thing he needs is some mines, he doesn't need to mass vultures. But let's just stop at that. I also want to end the argument here, since you keep ignoring every facts I present and this will lead to nowhere.
Your answer to everything seems to be get really behind, get vultures, mine up the nat and hope your opponent is D-
And yours seems to be ignoring everything else other than your opinion. Not to mention the one playing here is Flash.
... and your ignoring the opinions of two progamers, flash and jangbi.
I don't even know what to say about this. You're just arguing for the sake of argue, not to get to the point....
I'm arguing because Jangbi was right, and that his opinion is proven by logical induction (his experience and logical thought process concluded that he already won when he saw the barracks because he understands PvT from the protoss perspective and knows the terran can't beat his build or transition out of it) as well as empirical evidence (he won). Flash's opinion also matters because he's consistently been the top 1-2 terran in the world as well as having top 1-3 TvP as well as having personal stake in winning the match. Flash's opinion isn't wrong just because he lost a game where he had nothing but bad luck (scouting jangbi last resulting in it being denied, going bio to counter mass dragoons and having jangbi go templar tech) and disadvantages (losing scvs with an econ build, having no time or resources to transition out of his build).
I'm trying to invoke professional (and it is professional, these people are professional gamers at the top of the food chain) credibility to add to my argument. What is your point? I'm backing my opinion up with facts, statistics, build analysis, and showing why from the player's perspective these choices make sense. What you've done is insist on a build switch which is completely illogical.
How about this Alypse. Can you try to find an instance where any player, any player at all, canceled his production / tech structures entirely to start another build at a much delayed timing? Because there are hundreds of instances where players have WON with a weaker or non optimal build that they kept going even after being scouted / countered because they can't transition out of it. Show me something in the contrary.
Please, I am sure I can take everything you just said about logical induction and professional credibility to the side of my argument. I can just say that by Flash's experience and game sense and mechanics and the fact that he is the top T in the world and the consistent top 3 TvP player... so he would be completely fine should he chose the other way. Of course Jangbi could just say anything once he's won. All your facts, stats, analysis... make as much sense as mine do to me. The point is (I don't know how many times I have said this), there's nothing to prove that committing to bio is not the worst way for Flash. and I am suggesting that going for the other strategy would probably result in a higher chance of winning. Why? I explained it before, don't wanna waste my time write it down again.
I don't think I can find a situation like this when a T intends to do a switch the moment he saw the DTs.. But I remember a game between Kal and a T, where T went for bio right from the beginning, got a big advantage but still in the end got mauled by storms and DTs. The only scenario where bio works vs P is when T can deal the fatal blow to P right in the first time, and that goal can only be done when P has no knowledge of the strategy. (Turn vs Stats for example.)
Yea, except you are ignoring something. Factual evidence and game mechanics. This is ridiculous. Flash can't just make any build work, neither can any player, it has to be planned and calculated. It's a calculated decision to continue with the bio mech push. No terran progamer would chose to cancel his barracks unless he was hoping for the protoss to just drop out of the game because he knows that the protoss would either out expand him while he defends for a push that never comes since the protoss has vision of his side of the field via DT's, or the protoss would just outright kill him while there is an absence of units. You can't just use the defense that your opinion makes sense to you when there's already an established answer to the problem because Broodwar is a game with defined mechanics and numeric values. Flash's highest chance of winning was with the bio mech push before storm finishes, he couldn't pull it off.
No it's not, Flash has the lowest chance of winning when commiting to the bio push. It just couldn't works when the opponent already had the knowledge of his intention and had several DTs on guard, plus you don't know is his storms are ready or not. I'm not even talking about the possibility that he will run out of scans even before reaching Jangbi's nat. Anyway it's suicidal for Flash to do so. About the potential all-in, I already discussed it before, and I won't say it again since it looks like you're in a loop.
So you don't think progamers study furiously the timing windows for unit production / research? Storms take a definite amount of time to research and HT's take a definite amount of time to produce and save up enough energy to cast storm. It's even more suicidal to go for a mech switch. Show me one game where a terran does what you are suggesting.
It's all known too well that they practice a lot, but as many have also said, they are not perfect and quite frequently they make mistakes or false judgments or have bad timings. You said it yourself several pages ago, and now you're contradicting yourself. That aside, against DTs and storms AND limited scans, bio is surely a suicide.
It's still the only shot he has,trying to wait and turtle on 2 bases with mines is an even worse option because the protoss can just choose to macro and expand more instead of attacking when he sees that there are vultures instead of a bio attack. It's still the better choice. It's a bad decision on its own but Flash can't escape the position he was already so he needs to make do, same with trying to hold a 9 pool with a 12 hatch. You've already done the build, you can't transition out of it into a more optimal build.
He's definitely not too deep within it and can turn his way back. Why not choose the better tactics when the one you're doing is suicidal, and the other tactics is viable?
You just answered your own question. Flash knew exactly what he was up against and if he thought he could've transitioned to something better he would have. He still chose to go with his bio timing vs templar tech despite it being an uphill battle (maybe 5% or less win rate with their respective builds). Flash still chose biomech as the best tactic because your idiotic mech transition is completely non-viable in that situation. Just because you don't understand why it's not viable doesn't mean it is (multiple people have posted explaining the many ways in which toss destroys a mech transition in the context of that game). Like Caihead I challenge you to find ONE game in the history of bw where multiple production structures and tech are cancelled that late by a progamer to transition into something completely different. Now assuming you can't, your thinking either revolutionizes a 10 year old game or is fundamentally flawed. I'm going with the latter.
And what is it that you just said? Theorycrafting based on nothing at all? Like I said, as much as I can't find a game with such a situation, you have absolutely nothing to prove that the commitment Flash made is the best way possible and instead just ignorantly and mindlessly repeating about your "understanding of the matchup".
I used build analysis, I stated building times for units and buildings, I stated flash's lack of gas mining at the time because of the bio mech build and how it wouldn't be possible to produce a mech army not to mention his lack of mech upgrades, I stated why flash can't use units to scout nor can he use scans to scout and why his scout was denied, I stated research times for key researches like mines / speed / storm, I stated what Flash was able to see at what time and why he would choose to continue the build. I made note of the fact that flash lost scvs with an economical build so jangbi and flash are pretty even on economy especially since flash cut scvs for his build. And I stated what possible transitions the protoss could have gone with at the time based on what flash knows, and how the game would play out if a transition like you said would happen, namely protoss expand at will, crush flash while he has an absence of units, ability to scout and deny aggression or macro instead of aggression if he sees mines with the dt's, deny flash's third indefinitely due to army size. You can see all of that if you just go back a few pages or hell, look in this conversation in spoilers.
And then you tell me it's all based on nothing.
*throws hands up in the air* w/e not worth my time
If it's not worth your time why bother replying in the first place? I've seen way too many times in this thread alone when you contradict yourself.
As I have said over 9000 times, as much as my suggested strategy is theorycrafting, you've got nothing more than that. All your analysis aims to one scenario where Flash would get demolished if he decided not to stick to bio. Mine is to get to the point that not going bio can result in a better situation for him. Yeah, I have read what you wrote many pages back, but you can also see my arguments back there too. I too have analyzed the situation and the build, the timings of units and buildings and pushes and attacks, the fact that T can still cancel the 2 unfinished raxes, that Jangbi opted for non-stop DTs right off the bat, that he was busing building up his expansion even before he used his DTs, that stim research still not done yet, that an all-in from P can be even less likely if Flash can stop P from getting intelligence, since with that build P would not get obs for a while. And most importantly I've said countless times that going bio versus DT-storms combo is the suicidal method for T, especially when P already knew it. And what you did was throwing all the above aside and like "Hell no, my way is the only way that's possible and acceptable."
The main problem is your theorycrafting seems to be based on a very superficial understanding of the matchup whereas Caihead's actually makes sense. It's not even resources that are the main issue (though 3 medics + the scv cut and losses + the rax cancels are substantial setbacks), it's timing. Such late factories just don't give flash options to punish the toss third or take one of his own. You might as well just forfeit. You can keep calling us ignorant and stating your opinion is just as valid as much as you like but it's just not. You can't find a single game as an example. You wouldn't be able to find a pro or high level amateur player that thinks your idea isn't retarded. Your thinking just isn't viable in an actual game of BW, especially one against the best current PvT on the planet or just about any P that knows what they're doing. Noone in this thread has thought your idea was a good one. What's your highest ICCUP rank, and with what race? Do you actually play this game? How are you this stubborn and ignorant... I thought you might be trolling but I guess you've somehow deluded yourself into thinking you know what you're talking about...
Again, you yourself can't find a game where the situation doesn't work so you are in no position to criticize me. I on the other hand think your concept of "just stick with it no matter how suicidal it is" is no less idiotic than how you think mine is. It also shows how ignorant you are.
The burden of proof is on you to show how your proposed strategy actually works. Flash was actually close to pulling the bio off, jangbi was gas stretched and only had the 1 templar out cause he needed enough dt's. Flash wasn't scanning directly on the dt's to kill them but just catching them on the edge to try and get a two for one which would've swung the game. 1 misstep from jangbi and he becomes vulnerable, storm comes 15 seconds later and he's in trouble. Then maybe flash can transition if he kills enough probes at the nat or the nexus. Jangbi played it pretty much perfectly but if he didnt Flash would've at least had a shot.
The reason we can't show you a game where the transition doesn't work is because no pro has done something as bad as what you're suggesting in a live game. Considering the amount of practice games played by pro's and b-teamers I'm pretty sure they would've figured out the viability of cancelling production and tech that late.
You're basically saying Flash was idiotic in his play and that both Flash and Jangbi didn't understand how that situation plays out in a cancel tech scenario.
I noticed you dodged my question and I'm getting the impression you're an armchair theorycrafter. Again, do you actually play this game?
Do you realize that you just prove the reason I said you're ignorant? Look back at what you just wrote and tell me what part of it isn't theorycrafting? And you're telling me how bad my "theorycrafting" is. Yeah, that makes sense. And yes, I actually do play this game, from 2002, but not anymore since last year.
I'm pretty sure alypse is just trolling now. The fact that he has a KT icon and disagree with Flash's decision, a decision Flash made knowing exactly Jangbi's build, pretty much tells you all you need to know.
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god
Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning.
He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest?
How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So?
Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"?
Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation.
Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will.
Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat.
I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth.
From Jangbi's interview:
"You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won."
You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms.
My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled?
Your evidence: personal theorycrafting
On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote: If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy
Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make.
I assumed you'd be one of those clueless theorycrafters blaming that loss on flash being stupid and not massing vultures off his 2 factories when he was vs'ing dragoon reaver. Even if he somehow holds the zealots he has a tank count of 1-2 vs a 3 base toss and a grand total of 2 factories (i.e. dead). I'm done with this thread anyway, there's clearly no convincing you as you seem to have only the most basic understanding of how the game works.
I'm afraid the clueless theorycrafter here is you, since that's not the purpose of using vultures in that game. Just 2 or 3 vultures lay mines in front of his nat would most probably prevent the fatal zealot stream into his base, causing the GG. The thing he needs is some mines, he doesn't need to mass vultures. But let's just stop at that. I also want to end the argument here, since you keep ignoring every facts I present and this will lead to nowhere.
Your answer to everything seems to be get really behind, get vultures, mine up the nat and hope your opponent is D-
And yours seems to be ignoring everything else other than your opinion. Not to mention the one playing here is Flash.
You're the one saying what Flash did was wrong. Also I'm listening to everyone else's opinion (Turbovolver, Caihead, Endy and others), the only one in disagreement is yours.
.... What I meant was it's Flash defending if he did choose not to commit to bio. And I have seen several times in this forum alone when not everybody has the same opinion; when few disagree with the majority.
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god
Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning.
He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest?
How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So?
Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"?
Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation.
Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will.
Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat.
I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth.
From Jangbi's interview:
"You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won."
You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms.
My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled?
Your evidence: personal theorycrafting
On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote: If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy
Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make.
I assumed you'd be one of those clueless theorycrafters blaming that loss on flash being stupid and not massing vultures off his 2 factories when he was vs'ing dragoon reaver. Even if he somehow holds the zealots he has a tank count of 1-2 vs a 3 base toss and a grand total of 2 factories (i.e. dead). I'm done with this thread anyway, there's clearly no convincing you as you seem to have only the most basic understanding of how the game works.
I'm afraid the clueless theorycrafter here is you, since that's not the purpose of using vultures in that game. Just 2 or 3 vultures lay mines in front of his nat would most probably prevent the fatal zealot stream into his base, causing the GG. The thing he needs is some mines, he doesn't need to mass vultures. But let's just stop at that. I also want to end the argument here, since you keep ignoring every facts I present and this will lead to nowhere.
Your answer to everything seems to be get really behind, get vultures, mine up the nat and hope your opponent is D-
And yours seems to be ignoring everything else other than your opinion. Not to mention the one playing here is Flash.
... and your ignoring the opinions of two progamers, flash and jangbi.
I don't even know what to say about this. You're just arguing for the sake of argue, not to get to the point....
I'm arguing because Jangbi was right, and that his opinion is proven by logical induction (his experience and logical thought process concluded that he already won when he saw the barracks because he understands PvT from the protoss perspective and knows the terran can't beat his build or transition out of it) as well as empirical evidence (he won). Flash's opinion also matters because he's consistently been the top 1-2 terran in the world as well as having top 1-3 TvP as well as having personal stake in winning the match. Flash's opinion isn't wrong just because he lost a game where he had nothing but bad luck (scouting jangbi last resulting in it being denied, going bio to counter mass dragoons and having jangbi go templar tech) and disadvantages (losing scvs with an econ build, having no time or resources to transition out of his build).
I'm trying to invoke professional (and it is professional, these people are professional gamers at the top of the food chain) credibility to add to my argument. What is your point? I'm backing my opinion up with facts, statistics, build analysis, and showing why from the player's perspective these choices make sense. What you've done is insist on a build switch which is completely illogical.
How about this Alypse. Can you try to find an instance where any player, any player at all, canceled his production / tech structures entirely to start another build at a much delayed timing? Because there are hundreds of instances where players have WON with a weaker or non optimal build that they kept going even after being scouted / countered because they can't transition out of it. Show me something in the contrary.
Please, I am sure I can take everything you just said about logical induction and professional credibility to the side of my argument. I can just say that by Flash's experience and game sense and mechanics and the fact that he is the top T in the world and the consistent top 3 TvP player... so he would be completely fine should he chose the other way. Of course Jangbi could just say anything once he's won. All your facts, stats, analysis... make as much sense as mine do to me. The point is (I don't know how many times I have said this), there's nothing to prove that committing to bio is not the worst way for Flash. and I am suggesting that going for the other strategy would probably result in a higher chance of winning. Why? I explained it before, don't wanna waste my time write it down again.
I don't think I can find a situation like this when a T intends to do a switch the moment he saw the DTs.. But I remember a game between Kal and a T, where T went for bio right from the beginning, got a big advantage but still in the end got mauled by storms and DTs. The only scenario where bio works vs P is when T can deal the fatal blow to P right in the first time, and that goal can only be done when P has no knowledge of the strategy. (Turn vs Stats for example.)
Yea, except you are ignoring something. Factual evidence and game mechanics. This is ridiculous. Flash can't just make any build work, neither can any player, it has to be planned and calculated. It's a calculated decision to continue with the bio mech push. No terran progamer would chose to cancel his barracks unless he was hoping for the protoss to just drop out of the game because he knows that the protoss would either out expand him while he defends for a push that never comes since the protoss has vision of his side of the field via DT's, or the protoss would just outright kill him while there is an absence of units. You can't just use the defense that your opinion makes sense to you when there's already an established answer to the problem because Broodwar is a game with defined mechanics and numeric values. Flash's highest chance of winning was with the bio mech push before storm finishes, he couldn't pull it off.
No it's not, Flash has the lowest chance of winning when commiting to the bio push. It just couldn't works when the opponent already had the knowledge of his intention and had several DTs on guard, plus you don't know is his storms are ready or not. I'm not even talking about the possibility that he will run out of scans even before reaching Jangbi's nat. Anyway it's suicidal for Flash to do so. About the potential all-in, I already discussed it before, and I won't say it again since it looks like you're in a loop.
So you don't think progamers study furiously the timing windows for unit production / research? Storms take a definite amount of time to research and HT's take a definite amount of time to produce and save up enough energy to cast storm. It's even more suicidal to go for a mech switch. Show me one game where a terran does what you are suggesting.
It's all known too well that they practice a lot, but as many have also said, they are not perfect and quite frequently they make mistakes or false judgments or have bad timings. You said it yourself several pages ago, and now you're contradicting yourself. That aside, against DTs and storms AND limited scans, bio is surely a suicide.
It's still the only shot he has,trying to wait and turtle on 2 bases with mines is an even worse option because the protoss can just choose to macro and expand more instead of attacking when he sees that there are vultures instead of a bio attack. It's still the better choice. It's a bad decision on its own but Flash can't escape the position he was already so he needs to make do, same with trying to hold a 9 pool with a 12 hatch. You've already done the build, you can't transition out of it into a more optimal build.
He's definitely not too deep within it and can turn his way back. Why not choose the better tactics when the one you're doing is suicidal, and the other tactics is viable?
You just answered your own question. Flash knew exactly what he was up against and if he thought he could've transitioned to something better he would have. He still chose to go with his bio timing vs templar tech despite it being an uphill battle (maybe 5% or less win rate with their respective builds). Flash still chose biomech as the best tactic because your idiotic mech transition is completely non-viable in that situation. Just because you don't understand why it's not viable doesn't mean it is (multiple people have posted explaining the many ways in which toss destroys a mech transition in the context of that game). Like Caihead I challenge you to find ONE game in the history of bw where multiple production structures and tech are cancelled that late by a progamer to transition into something completely different. Now assuming you can't, your thinking either revolutionizes a 10 year old game or is fundamentally flawed. I'm going with the latter.
And what is it that you just said? Theorycrafting based on nothing at all? Like I said, as much as I can't find a game with such a situation, you have absolutely nothing to prove that the commitment Flash made is the best way possible and instead just ignorantly and mindlessly repeating about your "understanding of the matchup".
I used build analysis, I stated building times for units and buildings, I stated flash's lack of gas mining at the time because of the bio mech build and how it wouldn't be possible to produce a mech army not to mention his lack of mech upgrades, I stated why flash can't use units to scout nor can he use scans to scout and why his scout was denied, I stated research times for key researches like mines / speed / storm, I stated what Flash was able to see at what time and why he would choose to continue the build. I made note of the fact that flash lost scvs with an economical build so jangbi and flash are pretty even on economy especially since flash cut scvs for his build. And I stated what possible transitions the protoss could have gone with at the time based on what flash knows, and how the game would play out if a transition like you said would happen, namely protoss expand at will, crush flash while he has an absence of units, ability to scout and deny aggression or macro instead of aggression if he sees mines with the dt's, deny flash's third indefinitely due to army size. You can see all of that if you just go back a few pages or hell, look in this conversation in spoilers.
And then you tell me it's all based on nothing.
*throws hands up in the air* w/e not worth my time
If it's not worth your time why bother replying in the first place? I've seen way too many times in this thread alone when you contradict yourself.
As I have said over 9000 times, as much as my suggested strategy is theorycrafting, you've got nothing more than that. All your analysis aims to one scenario where Flash would get demolished if he decided not to stick to bio. Mine is to get to the point that not going bio can result in a better situation for him. Yeah, I have read what you wrote many pages back, but you can also see my arguments back there too. I too have analyzed the situation and the build, the timings of units and buildings and pushes and attacks, the fact that T can still cancel the 2 unfinished raxes, that Jangbi opted for non-stop DTs right off the bat, that he was busing building up his expansion even before he used his DTs, that stim research still not done yet, that an all-in from P can be even less likely if Flash can stop P from getting intelligence, since with that build P would not get obs for a while. And most importantly I've said countless times that going bio versus DT-storms combo is the suicidal method for T, especially when P already knew it. And what you did was throwing all the above aside and like "Hell no, my way is the only way that's possible and acceptable."
The main problem is your theorycrafting seems to be based on a very superficial understanding of the matchup whereas Caihead's actually makes sense. It's not even resources that are the main issue (though 3 medics + the scv cut and losses + the rax cancels are substantial setbacks), it's timing. Such late factories just don't give flash options to punish the toss third or take one of his own. You might as well just forfeit. You can keep calling us ignorant and stating your opinion is just as valid as much as you like but it's just not. You can't find a single game as an example. You wouldn't be able to find a pro or high level amateur player that thinks your idea isn't retarded. Your thinking just isn't viable in an actual game of BW, especially one against the best current PvT on the planet or just about any P that knows what they're doing. Noone in this thread has thought your idea was a good one. What's your highest ICCUP rank, and with what race? Do you actually play this game? How are you this stubborn and ignorant... I thought you might be trolling but I guess you've somehow deluded yourself into thinking you know what you're talking about...
Again, you yourself can't find a game where the situation doesn't work so you are in no position to criticize me. I on the other hand think your concept of "just stick with it no matter how suicidal it is" is no less idiotic than how you think mine is. It also shows how ignorant you are.
The burden of proof is on you to show how your proposed strategy actually works. Flash was actually close to pulling the bio off, jangbi was gas stretched and only had the 1 templar out cause he needed enough dt's. Flash wasn't scanning directly on the dt's to kill them but just catching them on the edge to try and get a two for one which would've swung the game. 1 misstep from jangbi and he becomes vulnerable, storm comes 15 seconds later and he's in trouble. Then maybe flash can transition if he kills enough probes at the nat or the nexus. Jangbi played it pretty much perfectly but if he didnt Flash would've at least had a shot.
The reason we can't show you a game where the transition doesn't work is because no pro has done something as bad as what you're suggesting in a live game. Considering the amount of practice games played by pro's and b-teamers I'm pretty sure they would've figured out the viability of cancelling production and tech that late.
You're basically saying Flash was idiotic in his play and that both Flash and Jangbi didn't understand how that situation plays out in a cancel tech scenario.
I noticed you dodged my question and I'm getting the impression you're an armchair theorycrafter. Again, do you actually play this game?
Do you realize that you just prove the reason I said you're ignorant? Look back at what you just wrote and tell me what part of it isn't theorycrafting? And you're telling me how bad my "theorycrafting" is. Yeah, that makes sense. And yes, I actually do play this game, from 2002, but not anymore since last year.
I have no clue how you can play BW for 9 years, watch all pro-games and fail to understand why Flash didn't transition. If this is some elaborate troll then congrats, you got me. If not then I don't know what to say anymore, you just seem determined to argue with Flash, Jangbi, BW convention and everyone who posts. It's frustrating to be repeatedly called out as ignorant by someone who clearly has nfi about the game. I guess I'll just have to suck it up and stop checking this thread. I should know better than to try and convince an idiot of their idiocy.
On May 25 2012 14:37 baubo wrote: I'm pretty sure alypse is just trolling now. The fact that he has a KT icon and disagree with Flash's decision, a decision Flash made knowing exactly Jangbi's build, pretty much tells you all you need to know.
It has nothing to do with it being flash and Alypse being a KT fan. Any legitimate progamer who's good at TvP wouldn't make that decision to tech switch, nor would any fan regardless of team say that a tech switch is better than trying to break the protoss' natural with a bio mech force. If you want to fault flash fault him for trying a difficult to pull off build to break a 2 gate transition, when the barracks were placed down and he cut scvs and jangbi went for templar archive and saw flash's build it was already over. Flash was pretty much banking on jangbi doing a double expand or transition into bull dog after the 2 gate pressure for his build to work, and jangbi was banking on flash not making academy (flash isn't likely to at that time unless he did a weird bio mech build which he did) or engineering bay (flash isn't likely to at that time unless he assumes templar archives). It's not even that flash got meta gamed by jangbi, templar follow up is a possible follow up out of 2 gate, it's just that he guessed wrong and it was beyond recovery once jangbi saw the barracks.
Can I just point to a different recent game where a player placed at a disadvantage due to "bad" early decisions played well after and it simply didn't matter and couldn't transition because the disadvantage was too big? http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/115835_Action_vs_firebathero/vod In this case Action was planning a lurker contain / break on FBH and unfortunately for him FBH went blind mech with speed vultures and it completely raped his drone count starting at the 8:00 minute mark. At the 10 minute mark it finally got cleaned up and Action tries to lurker contain FBH, but FBH was ahead on econ and had a mech army going. At this point Action starts taking his third, and numerous people were saying in the forums "why doesn't action tech to hive, he needs to tech to hive to win". Completely ignoring the fact that at this point action has vision of FBH and knows the tech timings. It takes 60+120 seconds for queen's nest and hive to finish, another 60 seconds for defiler mound and 100 seconds for consume. And as you can see at the 13 minute mark FBH was already trying to siege up to the 9 o'clock, threatening action's potential third, any potential third at the corners, and his natural.
Action had no options but to hold a push and make something happen because the timing simply doesn't allow him to tech up to defilers, and he had no gas to support defiler / lurker. Same reason why he didn't take the gas after the 3rd went up because he understands his only chance is to hit the terran's natural / third with drop play and pray he gets enough kills to come back in the game. Because he can't turtle up on 3 bases since the terran has complete map control and would just deny him additional bases, as well as him having no ability to deny the terran taking extra bases. Unfortunately for him FBH took the 3 o'clock expansion instead of the 5 o'clock (you can clearly see he meant for the 3 o'clock drop to go to the natural) and had adequate drop defense. His only possible attempt to win was doing some miraculous drop play to wipe the mineral lines but it got stopped, the advantage was just too big and FBH won.
What you are suggesting sounds exactly like what people were suggesting action to do to tech up to hive, any player who understands the player's vision as well as what they know from timings knows that Action can't simply tech to hive, it would have taken him a whole 340 seconds (i.e. 5 minutes and 40 seconds) from minute 10 to get swarms out and FBH would have either expanded uncontrollably or just killed him during that absence of gas units. Exactly the same with Flash vs Jangbi, Flash's build got hard countered, he lost workers, and he can't transition out of it at all because of the timings. And in this case Flash didn't even have the gas income to support a possible switch because of the build, at least you could have argued that Action had the gas income to support the transition to hive.
Yea, action could have teched to hive, and by some miracle stall FBH with distractions, back stabs, pimp stop lurkers like he did, zergling run bys, and then defended with swarms past the 16 minute mark. But again FBH could have just expanded at will during the time and Action had no vision of what FBH was doing, much like flash had no way of knowing what Jangbi was doing. And Flash would have had no way of taking another base if Jangbi was paying atttention at all since Jangbi had map hax (dt's) to see if Flash was going to expand / turtle with mines like you suggested / move out for a push; just like Action had no way to take another base even with defiler tech because FBH had map control.
The matter of the fact is what Flash / Action did, though sub-optimal and bad by themselves as prepared strategies, was the best that they could do. Flash / Action weren't / physically couldn't have known about the strategies of the opponent and got hard countered, and all they could have done was continue with the build, other options would have just lead to them losing any ways. Pro-gamers all-in for specific reasons, and some times they work, some times a progamer does try a tech transition and makes it work, I'm not saying that it's IMPOSSIBLE to win with a tech switch like you suggested. Hell maybe Jangbi got a power outage and because Flash dragged the game out he got a regame or something, maybe Flash's mouse stopped working (lol), maybe Jangbi went rapid expand after he saw mine turtle and flash miraculously defended his third and ended the game with perfect micro out of a 3 base doom push with delayed upgrades and tech. But there's a higher chance of Flash winning with his given build, even though it's a bad one if you just judge it by itself. If your options are to do something with 20% success rate and 10% success rate, even if the 20% is a F- grade you still have to try it because it's still better than a 10%.
by "playing BW" he probably meant "completed single player and did a few games on b.net/LAN, most of them UMS"
Not that my troll radar is good...but a quick look through posting history just shows me a bunch of crappy one-liners that don't indicate anything above the currently displayed level of competency in BW...or arguing
So my guess about alypse = not troll, just blanket stupidity
BTW It's easy to say "you can't prove your opinion is better" when it would take a retarded amount of time to set up remotely "good" proof - I mean, why bother: -setting up a theoretical game or 20 -grabbing two high-level BW players to play it out -play out all the scenarios, including stuff like appropriate double-blind decision making and proper battle micro and then -recording their respective replays/videos for release...
...all for the sake of for such a terrible low level discussion, against one guy who isn't very responsive, who clearly knows very little, regarding a BW match that, to be honest, really wasn't that interesting?
Stupidity or not, I think a whole ton of time is being wasted here, although I find this "discussion" oddly hilarious
On May 25 2012 16:11 scrubtastic wrote: by "playing BW" he probably meant "completed single player and did a few games on b.net/LAN, most of them UMS"
Not that my troll radar is good...but a quick look through posting history just shows me a bunch of crappy one-liners that don't indicate anything above the currently displayed level of competency in BW...or arguing
So my guess about alypse = not troll, just blanket stupidity
BTW It's easy to say "you can't prove your opinion is better" when it would take a retarded amount of time to set up remotely "good" proof - I mean, why bother: -setting up a theoretical game or 20 -grabbing two high-level BW players to play it out -play out all the scenarios, including stuff like appropriate double-blind decision making and proper battle micro and then -recording their respective replays/videos for release...
...all for the sake of for such a terrible low level discussion, against one guy who isn't very responsive, who clearly knows very little, regarding a BW match that, to be honest, really wasn't that interesting?
Stupidity or not, I think a whole ton of time is being wasted here, although I find this "discussion" oddly hilarious
I'm just feeling like people aren't talking about BW enough any more, it's an excuse to talk about strategy about a game that I love and can't bear to see it being misrepresented :<. Logging on a few hours before OSL and not even seeing a topic about it up is so depressing.
On May 25 2012 12:29 Turbovolver wrote: Alypse, even as Caihead's mortal enemy I must tell you that he is making more sense than you here.
I do like your point just now though: "If Flash sticking with bio was so suicidal, how is it any different to trying a desperate, delayed mech switch?"
That's a decent point, but I think the fact that Flash managed to make a decent push on the map to try to beat storm timing (and was held back by nice DT play and then a great storm when the tech did kick in) meant he lost.
On May 25 2012 12:29 Turbovolver wrote: Alypse, even as Caihead's mortal enemy I must tell you that he is making more sense than you here.
I do like your point just now though: "If Flash sticking with bio was so suicidal, how is it any different to trying a desperate, delayed mech switch?"
That's a decent point, but I think the fact that Flash managed to make a decent push on the map to try to beat storm timing (and was held back by nice DT play and then a great storm when the tech did kick in) meant he lost.
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god
Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning.
He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest?
How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So?
Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"?
Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation.
Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will.
Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat.
I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth.
From Jangbi's interview:
"You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won."
You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms.
My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled?
Your evidence: personal theorycrafting
On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote: If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy
Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make.
I assumed you'd be one of those clueless theorycrafters blaming that loss on flash being stupid and not massing vultures off his 2 factories when he was vs'ing dragoon reaver. Even if he somehow holds the zealots he has a tank count of 1-2 vs a 3 base toss and a grand total of 2 factories (i.e. dead). I'm done with this thread anyway, there's clearly no convincing you as you seem to have only the most basic understanding of how the game works.
I'm afraid the clueless theorycrafter here is you, since that's not the purpose of using vultures in that game. Just 2 or 3 vultures lay mines in front of his nat would most probably prevent the fatal zealot stream into his base, causing the GG. The thing he needs is some mines, he doesn't need to mass vultures. But let's just stop at that. I also want to end the argument here, since you keep ignoring every facts I present and this will lead to nowhere.
Your answer to everything seems to be get really behind, get vultures, mine up the nat and hope your opponent is D-
And yours seems to be ignoring everything else other than your opinion. Not to mention the one playing here is Flash.
You're the one saying what Flash did was wrong. Also I'm listening to everyone else's opinion (Turbovolver, Caihead, Endy and others), the only one in disagreement is yours.
.... What I meant was it's Flash defending if he did choose not to commit to bio. And I have seen several times in this forum alone when not everybody has the same opinion; when few disagree with the majority.
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god
Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning.
He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest?
How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So?
Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"?
Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation.
Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will.
Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat.
I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth.
From Jangbi's interview:
"You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won."
You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms.
My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled?
Your evidence: personal theorycrafting
On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote: If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy
Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make.
I assumed you'd be one of those clueless theorycrafters blaming that loss on flash being stupid and not massing vultures off his 2 factories when he was vs'ing dragoon reaver. Even if he somehow holds the zealots he has a tank count of 1-2 vs a 3 base toss and a grand total of 2 factories (i.e. dead). I'm done with this thread anyway, there's clearly no convincing you as you seem to have only the most basic understanding of how the game works.
I'm afraid the clueless theorycrafter here is you, since that's not the purpose of using vultures in that game. Just 2 or 3 vultures lay mines in front of his nat would most probably prevent the fatal zealot stream into his base, causing the GG. The thing he needs is some mines, he doesn't need to mass vultures. But let's just stop at that. I also want to end the argument here, since you keep ignoring every facts I present and this will lead to nowhere.
Your answer to everything seems to be get really behind, get vultures, mine up the nat and hope your opponent is D-
And yours seems to be ignoring everything else other than your opinion. Not to mention the one playing here is Flash.
... and your ignoring the opinions of two progamers, flash and jangbi.
I don't even know what to say about this. You're just arguing for the sake of argue, not to get to the point....
I'm arguing because Jangbi was right, and that his opinion is proven by logical induction (his experience and logical thought process concluded that he already won when he saw the barracks because he understands PvT from the protoss perspective and knows the terran can't beat his build or transition out of it) as well as empirical evidence (he won). Flash's opinion also matters because he's consistently been the top 1-2 terran in the world as well as having top 1-3 TvP as well as having personal stake in winning the match. Flash's opinion isn't wrong just because he lost a game where he had nothing but bad luck (scouting jangbi last resulting in it being denied, going bio to counter mass dragoons and having jangbi go templar tech) and disadvantages (losing scvs with an econ build, having no time or resources to transition out of his build).
I'm trying to invoke professional (and it is professional, these people are professional gamers at the top of the food chain) credibility to add to my argument. What is your point? I'm backing my opinion up with facts, statistics, build analysis, and showing why from the player's perspective these choices make sense. What you've done is insist on a build switch which is completely illogical.
How about this Alypse. Can you try to find an instance where any player, any player at all, canceled his production / tech structures entirely to start another build at a much delayed timing? Because there are hundreds of instances where players have WON with a weaker or non optimal build that they kept going even after being scouted / countered because they can't transition out of it. Show me something in the contrary.
Please, I am sure I can take everything you just said about logical induction and professional credibility to the side of my argument. I can just say that by Flash's experience and game sense and mechanics and the fact that he is the top T in the world and the consistent top 3 TvP player... so he would be completely fine should he chose the other way. Of course Jangbi could just say anything once he's won. All your facts, stats, analysis... make as much sense as mine do to me. The point is (I don't know how many times I have said this), there's nothing to prove that committing to bio is not the worst way for Flash. and I am suggesting that going for the other strategy would probably result in a higher chance of winning. Why? I explained it before, don't wanna waste my time write it down again.
I don't think I can find a situation like this when a T intends to do a switch the moment he saw the DTs.. But I remember a game between Kal and a T, where T went for bio right from the beginning, got a big advantage but still in the end got mauled by storms and DTs. The only scenario where bio works vs P is when T can deal the fatal blow to P right in the first time, and that goal can only be done when P has no knowledge of the strategy. (Turn vs Stats for example.)
Yea, except you are ignoring something. Factual evidence and game mechanics. This is ridiculous. Flash can't just make any build work, neither can any player, it has to be planned and calculated. It's a calculated decision to continue with the bio mech push. No terran progamer would chose to cancel his barracks unless he was hoping for the protoss to just drop out of the game because he knows that the protoss would either out expand him while he defends for a push that never comes since the protoss has vision of his side of the field via DT's, or the protoss would just outright kill him while there is an absence of units. You can't just use the defense that your opinion makes sense to you when there's already an established answer to the problem because Broodwar is a game with defined mechanics and numeric values. Flash's highest chance of winning was with the bio mech push before storm finishes, he couldn't pull it off.
No it's not, Flash has the lowest chance of winning when commiting to the bio push. It just couldn't works when the opponent already had the knowledge of his intention and had several DTs on guard, plus you don't know is his storms are ready or not. I'm not even talking about the possibility that he will run out of scans even before reaching Jangbi's nat. Anyway it's suicidal for Flash to do so. About the potential all-in, I already discussed it before, and I won't say it again since it looks like you're in a loop.
So you don't think progamers study furiously the timing windows for unit production / research? Storms take a definite amount of time to research and HT's take a definite amount of time to produce and save up enough energy to cast storm. It's even more suicidal to go for a mech switch. Show me one game where a terran does what you are suggesting.
It's all known too well that they practice a lot, but as many have also said, they are not perfect and quite frequently they make mistakes or false judgments or have bad timings. You said it yourself several pages ago, and now you're contradicting yourself. That aside, against DTs and storms AND limited scans, bio is surely a suicide.
It's still the only shot he has,trying to wait and turtle on 2 bases with mines is an even worse option because the protoss can just choose to macro and expand more instead of attacking when he sees that there are vultures instead of a bio attack. It's still the better choice. It's a bad decision on its own but Flash can't escape the position he was already so he needs to make do, same with trying to hold a 9 pool with a 12 hatch. You've already done the build, you can't transition out of it into a more optimal build.
He's definitely not too deep within it and can turn his way back. Why not choose the better tactics when the one you're doing is suicidal, and the other tactics is viable?
You just answered your own question. Flash knew exactly what he was up against and if he thought he could've transitioned to something better he would have. He still chose to go with his bio timing vs templar tech despite it being an uphill battle (maybe 5% or less win rate with their respective builds). Flash still chose biomech as the best tactic because your idiotic mech transition is completely non-viable in that situation. Just because you don't understand why it's not viable doesn't mean it is (multiple people have posted explaining the many ways in which toss destroys a mech transition in the context of that game). Like Caihead I challenge you to find ONE game in the history of bw where multiple production structures and tech are cancelled that late by a progamer to transition into something completely different. Now assuming you can't, your thinking either revolutionizes a 10 year old game or is fundamentally flawed. I'm going with the latter.
And what is it that you just said? Theorycrafting based on nothing at all? Like I said, as much as I can't find a game with such a situation, you have absolutely nothing to prove that the commitment Flash made is the best way possible and instead just ignorantly and mindlessly repeating about your "understanding of the matchup".
I used build analysis, I stated building times for units and buildings, I stated flash's lack of gas mining at the time because of the bio mech build and how it wouldn't be possible to produce a mech army not to mention his lack of mech upgrades, I stated why flash can't use units to scout nor can he use scans to scout and why his scout was denied, I stated research times for key researches like mines / speed / storm, I stated what Flash was able to see at what time and why he would choose to continue the build. I made note of the fact that flash lost scvs with an economical build so jangbi and flash are pretty even on economy especially since flash cut scvs for his build. And I stated what possible transitions the protoss could have gone with at the time based on what flash knows, and how the game would play out if a transition like you said would happen, namely protoss expand at will, crush flash while he has an absence of units, ability to scout and deny aggression or macro instead of aggression if he sees mines with the dt's, deny flash's third indefinitely due to army size. You can see all of that if you just go back a few pages or hell, look in this conversation in spoilers.
And then you tell me it's all based on nothing.
*throws hands up in the air* w/e not worth my time
If it's not worth your time why bother replying in the first place? I've seen way too many times in this thread alone when you contradict yourself.
As I have said over 9000 times, as much as my suggested strategy is theorycrafting, you've got nothing more than that. All your analysis aims to one scenario where Flash would get demolished if he decided not to stick to bio. Mine is to get to the point that not going bio can result in a better situation for him. Yeah, I have read what you wrote many pages back, but you can also see my arguments back there too. I too have analyzed the situation and the build, the timings of units and buildings and pushes and attacks, the fact that T can still cancel the 2 unfinished raxes, that Jangbi opted for non-stop DTs right off the bat, that he was busing building up his expansion even before he used his DTs, that stim research still not done yet, that an all-in from P can be even less likely if Flash can stop P from getting intelligence, since with that build P would not get obs for a while. And most importantly I've said countless times that going bio versus DT-storms combo is the suicidal method for T, especially when P already knew it. And what you did was throwing all the above aside and like "Hell no, my way is the only way that's possible and acceptable."
The main problem is your theorycrafting seems to be based on a very superficial understanding of the matchup whereas Caihead's actually makes sense. It's not even resources that are the main issue (though 3 medics + the scv cut and losses + the rax cancels are substantial setbacks), it's timing. Such late factories just don't give flash options to punish the toss third or take one of his own. You might as well just forfeit. You can keep calling us ignorant and stating your opinion is just as valid as much as you like but it's just not. You can't find a single game as an example. You wouldn't be able to find a pro or high level amateur player that thinks your idea isn't retarded. Your thinking just isn't viable in an actual game of BW, especially one against the best current PvT on the planet or just about any P that knows what they're doing. Noone in this thread has thought your idea was a good one. What's your highest ICCUP rank, and with what race? Do you actually play this game? How are you this stubborn and ignorant... I thought you might be trolling but I guess you've somehow deluded yourself into thinking you know what you're talking about...
Again, you yourself can't find a game where the situation doesn't work so you are in no position to criticize me. I on the other hand think your concept of "just stick with it no matter how suicidal it is" is no less idiotic than how you think mine is. It also shows how ignorant you are.
The burden of proof is on you to show how your proposed strategy actually works. Flash was actually close to pulling the bio off, jangbi was gas stretched and only had the 1 templar out cause he needed enough dt's. Flash wasn't scanning directly on the dt's to kill them but just catching them on the edge to try and get a two for one which would've swung the game. 1 misstep from jangbi and he becomes vulnerable, storm comes 15 seconds later and he's in trouble. Then maybe flash can transition if he kills enough probes at the nat or the nexus. Jangbi played it pretty much perfectly but if he didnt Flash would've at least had a shot.
The reason we can't show you a game where the transition doesn't work is because no pro has done something as bad as what you're suggesting in a live game. Considering the amount of practice games played by pro's and b-teamers I'm pretty sure they would've figured out the viability of cancelling production and tech that late.
You're basically saying Flash was idiotic in his play and that both Flash and Jangbi didn't understand how that situation plays out in a cancel tech scenario.
I noticed you dodged my question and I'm getting the impression you're an armchair theorycrafter. Again, do you actually play this game?
Do you realize that you just prove the reason I said you're ignorant? Look back at what you just wrote and tell me what part of it isn't theorycrafting? And you're telling me how bad my "theorycrafting" is. Yeah, that makes sense. And yes, I actually do play this game, from 2002, but not anymore since last year.
I have no clue how you can play BW for 9 years, watch all pro-games and fail to understand why Flash didn't transition. If this is some elaborate troll then congrats, you got me. If not then I don't know what to say anymore, you just seem determined to argue with Flash, Jangbi, BW convention and everyone who posts. It's frustrating to be repeatedly called out as ignorant by someone who clearly has nfi about the game. I guess I'll just have to suck it up and stop checking this thread. I should know better than to try and convince an idiot of their idiocy.
Well then do what you said, stop spewing out theorycrafting stuff and insults like an ignorant fool. I don't need to argue with a kid who completely ignores other different opinions and thinks it's only his that counts. Like you, I had no clue how you can follow the scene and watch that many BW games and completely fail to understand what I said.
On May 25 2012 14:37 baubo wrote: I'm pretty sure alypse is just trolling now. The fact that he has a KT icon and disagree with Flash's decision, a decision Flash made knowing exactly Jangbi's build, pretty much tells you all you need to know.
It has nothing to do with it being flash and Alypse being a KT fan. Any legitimate progamer who's good at TvP wouldn't make that decision to tech switch, nor would any fan regardless of team say that a tech switch is better than trying to break the protoss' natural with a bio mech force. If you want to fault flash fault him for trying a difficult to pull off build to break a 2 gate transition, when the barracks were placed down and he cut scvs and jangbi went for templar archive and saw flash's build it was already over. Flash was pretty much banking on jangbi doing a double expand or transition into bull dog after the 2 gate pressure for his build to work, and jangbi was banking on flash not making academy (flash isn't likely to at that time unless he did a weird bio mech build which he did) or engineering bay (flash isn't likely to at that time unless he assumes templar archives). It's not even that flash got meta gamed by jangbi, templar follow up is a possible follow up out of 2 gate, it's just that he guessed wrong and it was beyond recovery once jangbi saw the barracks.
Can I just point to a different recent game where a player placed at a disadvantage due to "bad" early decisions played well after and it simply didn't matter and couldn't transition because the disadvantage was too big? http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/115835_Action_vs_firebathero/vod In this case Action was planning a lurker contain / break on FBH and unfortunately for him FBH went blind mech with speed vultures and it completely raped his drone count starting at the 8:00 minute mark. At the 10 minute mark it finally got cleaned up and Action tries to lurker contain FBH, but FBH was ahead on econ and had a mech army going. At this point Action starts taking his third, and numerous people were saying in the forums "why doesn't action tech to hive, he needs to tech to hive to win". Completely ignoring the fact that at this point action has vision of FBH and knows the tech timings. It takes 60+120 seconds for queen's nest and hive to finish, another 60 seconds for defiler mound and 100 seconds for consume. And as you can see at the 13 minute mark FBH was already trying to siege up to the 9 o'clock, threatening action's potential third, any potential third at the corners, and his natural.
Action had no options but to hold a push and make something happen because the timing simply doesn't allow him to tech up to defilers, and he had no gas to support defiler / lurker. Same reason why he didn't take the gas after the 3rd went up because he understands his only chance is to hit the terran's natural / third with drop play and pray he gets enough kills to come back in the game. Because he can't turtle up on 3 bases since the terran has complete map control and would just deny him additional bases, as well as him having no ability to deny the terran taking extra bases. Unfortunately for him FBH took the 3 o'clock expansion instead of the 5 o'clock (you can clearly see he meant for the 3 o'clock drop to go to the natural) and had adequate drop defense. His only possible attempt to win was doing some miraculous drop play to wipe the mineral lines but it got stopped, the advantage was just too big and FBH won.
What you are suggesting sounds exactly like what people were suggesting action to do to tech up to hive, any player who understands the player's vision as well as what they know from timings knows that Action can't simply tech to hive, it would have taken him a whole 340 seconds (i.e. 5 minutes and 40 seconds) from minute 10 to get swarms out and FBH would have either expanded uncontrollably or just killed him during that absence of gas units. Exactly the same with Flash vs Jangbi, Flash's build got hard countered, he lost workers, and he can't transition out of it at all because of the timings. And in this case Flash didn't even have the gas income to support a possible switch because of the build, at least you could have argued that Action had the gas income to support the transition to hive.
Yea, action could have teched to hive, and by some miracle stall FBH with distractions, back stabs, pimp stop lurkers like he did, zergling run bys, and then defended with swarms past the 16 minute mark. But again FBH could have just expanded at will during the time and Action had no vision of what FBH was doing, much like flash had no way of knowing what Jangbi was doing. And Flash would have had no way of taking another base if Jangbi was paying atttention at all since Jangbi had map hax (dt's) to see if Flash was going to expand / turtle with mines like you suggested / move out for a push; just like Action had no way to take another base even with defiler tech because FBH had map control.
The matter of the fact is what Flash / Action did, though sub-optimal and bad by themselves as prepared strategies, was the best that they could do. Flash / Action weren't / physically couldn't have known about the strategies of the opponent and got hard countered, and all they could have done was continue with the build, other options would have just lead to them losing any ways. Pro-gamers all-in for specific reasons, and some times they work, some times a progamer does try a tech transition and makes it work, I'm not saying that it's IMPOSSIBLE to win with a tech switch like you suggested. Hell maybe Jangbi got a power outage and because Flash dragged the game out he got a regame or something, maybe Flash's mouse stopped working (lol), maybe Jangbi went rapid expand after he saw mine turtle and flash miraculously defended his third and ended the game with perfect micro out of a 3 base doom push with delayed upgrades and tech. But there's a higher chance of Flash winning with his given build, even though it's a bad one if you just judge it by itself. If your options are to do something with 20% success rate and 10% success rate, even if the 20% is a F- grade you still have to try it because it's still better than a 10%.
Thanks for spending time to analyze that game. However isn't it a bit irrelevant since we all know that Zerg is the race always has to be on the offensive side, they simply cannot turtle, at least in pro level? And most importantly that's still TvZ, there are simply too many different factors that make the two situations incomparable.
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god
Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning.
He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest?
How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So?
Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"?
Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation.
Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will.
Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat.
I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth.
From Jangbi's interview:
"You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won."
You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms.
My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled?
Your evidence: personal theorycrafting
On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote: If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy
Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make.
I assumed you'd be one of those clueless theorycrafters blaming that loss on flash being stupid and not massing vultures off his 2 factories when he was vs'ing dragoon reaver. Even if he somehow holds the zealots he has a tank count of 1-2 vs a 3 base toss and a grand total of 2 factories (i.e. dead). I'm done with this thread anyway, there's clearly no convincing you as you seem to have only the most basic understanding of how the game works.
I'm afraid the clueless theorycrafter here is you, since that's not the purpose of using vultures in that game. Just 2 or 3 vultures lay mines in front of his nat would most probably prevent the fatal zealot stream into his base, causing the GG. The thing he needs is some mines, he doesn't need to mass vultures. But let's just stop at that. I also want to end the argument here, since you keep ignoring every facts I present and this will lead to nowhere.
Your answer to everything seems to be get really behind, get vultures, mine up the nat and hope your opponent is D-
And yours seems to be ignoring everything else other than your opinion. Not to mention the one playing here is Flash.
You're the one saying what Flash did was wrong. Also I'm listening to everyone else's opinion (Turbovolver, Caihead, Endy and others), the only one in disagreement is yours.
.... What I meant was it's Flash defending if he did choose not to commit to bio. And I have seen several times in this forum alone when not everybody has the same opinion; when few disagree with the majority.
From in-game logic, if you were presented with these facts, this is what you would think is happening. It's not about what we the observers can see but rather flash's decision based on limited information is a logical one with a high probability of being correct. If flash could predict everything correctly then he really would be god
Well of course I don't think he's that godly or expect that he would absolutely win that game. I'm saying instead of keep going for a sure-fire way to lose (bio against DTs/templars), he could've done something else that had a much higher chance for winning.
He had a higher chance of losing if he opted for barracks / research cancels and put scvs back on gas and started making 3 more factories and upgrading mines / speed out of the 1 machine shop. If you can suggest something be my guest?
How come he had a higher chance of losing? I already said this a few pages back, and now you're going back to where you began. Jangbi opted for DTs opening AND expanded before DTs attack. So?
Because Flash can't check if Jangbi expanded because he can't spare scans due to DT's, so he has to play in the blind, and the higher probability is that jangbi continued production out of the >=2 gates he has for a break at Flash's natural. Stopping production of marines and going factories would mean a huge gap in how many units he has on the field vs Jangbi's in that hypothetical situation. He would lose almost certainly. In the event that Jangbi did expand, flash still had a chance with the bio mech build he had to break jangbi's natural. He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough. If someone asked you "I saw no natural and fast dragoons so I responded with Marine / medic / tank, then I saw DT's", would you tell him "cancel your marine / medic / research / barracks and make factories/ start mines and vulture speed research even though your timing with those are incredibly behind"?
Flash can't check? How about using your units to scout instead of relying on early precious scans? And to confirm it, Jangbi DID expand and as 2 gates at that time. And about your hypothetical chance of breaking P's nat, we all see how good that chance was. "He tried to, but jangbi delayed him enough" - Of course your opponent would not just sit there letting you do whatever you want. Isn't this the point of it - if the tactics is not very viable, your should choose another way? In the end you still can't prove that going bio is the best way for Flash. Like I said, and I hope don't have to repeat this again, bio is the worst possible choice for Flash at that situation.
Seriously how are you this dense? Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived. There is no transition from where flash was (he'd already built 3 medics to build up energy with only 5 marines) and you'd know this if you had any grasp of the mu. He basically had to scan his way across the map and kill the toss before storm research finished. Any sort of transition back to mech would've resulted in ridiculously late mines, a cripplingly low tank/vulture count vs a high calibre toss that's 2 buildings off arbiters with total map control, no immediate need for obs, a citadel already up for speedlots and the freedom to expand at will.
Do you know how stupid and ignorant you are saying that "Bio was the only viable option after the dt's arrived"? If you look closely at the situation, as I said before, Jangbi was building up his nat, has 2 gates and was producing DTs non-stop. All Flash had to do was to prevent Jangbi from getting intelligence about his base. And with the DT rush, Jangbi's not so much ahead of Flash, so it would not be a ridiculously big gap in the two's armies. Also, there's a big chance that Jangbi thinks Flash will go for a bio-mech push, and will prepare to defend instead of attacking (which he actually did). And since he won't produce obs for a while, mines will do very well in defending Flash's nat.
I don't know how you can call Caihead and I ignorant when you're spewing forth this fantasy theorycraft. You simply can't cancel 2 rax at 90% (he can't cancel until the dt in the main is dead) THEN start building factories after going 3 medics and expect to have any sort of timing window to push or take a third. Sure you can survive longer but with 0 chance of winning vs someone like Jangbi. Time is the third resource in bw and you can't delay your 2nd+ production facilities by that much for no advantage (tech/third). The templar tech doesn't hurt jangbi at all, it's exactly what he needs for arbiters, storm or zealot speed. Once he'd scouted the first vulture of a switch back to mech with his dt's he would've been rofl'ing in his booth.
From Jangbi's interview:
"You had a big advantage during the game. ▶ Our openings were all very aggressive (?), but this was good for me. When I saw him going for a bionic build, I knew I won."
You are really ignorant because the only thing you think to be true is your own theorycraft. You sound very certain "you simply can't" "0 chance of winning"... but you have no evidence at all when you're spewing forth this fantasy of your own. Go to Iccup, play a game with a situation like that and send me the replay to prove it's the best possible choice. Oh wait, your opponent is not Jangbi, and you're not Flash. And now you're going from "you're can't because Flash already had all the raxs up" to "you can't cancel the 2rax", and that Citadel "doesn't hurt Jangbi at all". Well I already said it, with DTs continuously produced and his nat being built up (and the possibility that he doesn't know what happens on Flash side), it would be a better choice for Flash to go the other way instead of the suicidal method - bio-mech against Dts and storms.
My evidence: Flash, the best RTS'er in the world and Terran revolutionist thought it was the best move to stick with bio even when scouted. Jangbi, one of the best PvT'ers on the planet said he knew it was over as soon as he saw the medics. My own experience of playing tons of games on ICCUP (including bio tvp's) & watching pretty much every pro TvP in the last 5 years outside of prelims. Everyone else who's replied also thinks you have nfi. Basically you don't understand the mu and how terribad a switch back to factory tech would've been at that point. Your theorycrafting ends at, get mines, defend 2 base and survive a bit longer. So tell me at what point in this game does Flash have a timing to push/take a third without getting steamrolled?
Your evidence: personal theorycrafting
On May 23 2012 14:53 baubo wrote: If you watch any decent number of PvTs, that is an insurmountable lead for protoss, who could expand with impunity knowing that the terran army can't possibly push out for ages. By the time Flash could take his 3rd, Jangbi would simply crush him with 1a2a3a. And this isn't even counting arbiters that would be out.
You should listen to this guy
Don't tell me the decision to go dropship play vs Fantasy wraith-valks and not using vultures vs Bisu is what the top Terran of the world should make.
I assumed you'd be one of those clueless theorycrafters blaming that loss on flash being stupid and not massing vultures off his 2 factories when he was vs'ing dragoon reaver. Even if he somehow holds the zealots he has a tank count of 1-2 vs a 3 base toss and a grand total of 2 factories (i.e. dead). I'm done with this thread anyway, there's clearly no convincing you as you seem to have only the most basic understanding of how the game works.
I'm afraid the clueless theorycrafter here is you, since that's not the purpose of using vultures in that game. Just 2 or 3 vultures lay mines in front of his nat would most probably prevent the fatal zealot stream into his base, causing the GG. The thing he needs is some mines, he doesn't need to mass vultures. But let's just stop at that. I also want to end the argument here, since you keep ignoring every facts I present and this will lead to nowhere.
Your answer to everything seems to be get really behind, get vultures, mine up the nat and hope your opponent is D-
And yours seems to be ignoring everything else other than your opinion. Not to mention the one playing here is Flash.
... and your ignoring the opinions of two progamers, flash and jangbi.
I don't even know what to say about this. You're just arguing for the sake of argue, not to get to the point....
I'm arguing because Jangbi was right, and that his opinion is proven by logical induction (his experience and logical thought process concluded that he already won when he saw the barracks because he understands PvT from the protoss perspective and knows the terran can't beat his build or transition out of it) as well as empirical evidence (he won). Flash's opinion also matters because he's consistently been the top 1-2 terran in the world as well as having top 1-3 TvP as well as having personal stake in winning the match. Flash's opinion isn't wrong just because he lost a game where he had nothing but bad luck (scouting jangbi last resulting in it being denied, going bio to counter mass dragoons and having jangbi go templar tech) and disadvantages (losing scvs with an econ build, having no time or resources to transition out of his build).
I'm trying to invoke professional (and it is professional, these people are professional gamers at the top of the food chain) credibility to add to my argument. What is your point? I'm backing my opinion up with facts, statistics, build analysis, and showing why from the player's perspective these choices make sense. What you've done is insist on a build switch which is completely illogical.
How about this Alypse. Can you try to find an instance where any player, any player at all, canceled his production / tech structures entirely to start another build at a much delayed timing? Because there are hundreds of instances where players have WON with a weaker or non optimal build that they kept going even after being scouted / countered because they can't transition out of it. Show me something in the contrary.
Please, I am sure I can take everything you just said about logical induction and professional credibility to the side of my argument. I can just say that by Flash's experience and game sense and mechanics and the fact that he is the top T in the world and the consistent top 3 TvP player... so he would be completely fine should he chose the other way. Of course Jangbi could just say anything once he's won. All your facts, stats, analysis... make as much sense as mine do to me. The point is (I don't know how many times I have said this), there's nothing to prove that committing to bio is not the worst way for Flash. and I am suggesting that going for the other strategy would probably result in a higher chance of winning. Why? I explained it before, don't wanna waste my time write it down again.
I don't think I can find a situation like this when a T intends to do a switch the moment he saw the DTs.. But I remember a game between Kal and a T, where T went for bio right from the beginning, got a big advantage but still in the end got mauled by storms and DTs. The only scenario where bio works vs P is when T can deal the fatal blow to P right in the first time, and that goal can only be done when P has no knowledge of the strategy. (Turn vs Stats for example.)
Yea, except you are ignoring something. Factual evidence and game mechanics. This is ridiculous. Flash can't just make any build work, neither can any player, it has to be planned and calculated. It's a calculated decision to continue with the bio mech push. No terran progamer would chose to cancel his barracks unless he was hoping for the protoss to just drop out of the game because he knows that the protoss would either out expand him while he defends for a push that never comes since the protoss has vision of his side of the field via DT's, or the protoss would just outright kill him while there is an absence of units. You can't just use the defense that your opinion makes sense to you when there's already an established answer to the problem because Broodwar is a game with defined mechanics and numeric values. Flash's highest chance of winning was with the bio mech push before storm finishes, he couldn't pull it off.
No it's not, Flash has the lowest chance of winning when commiting to the bio push. It just couldn't works when the opponent already had the knowledge of his intention and had several DTs on guard, plus you don't know is his storms are ready or not. I'm not even talking about the possibility that he will run out of scans even before reaching Jangbi's nat. Anyway it's suicidal for Flash to do so. About the potential all-in, I already discussed it before, and I won't say it again since it looks like you're in a loop.
So you don't think progamers study furiously the timing windows for unit production / research? Storms take a definite amount of time to research and HT's take a definite amount of time to produce and save up enough energy to cast storm. It's even more suicidal to go for a mech switch. Show me one game where a terran does what you are suggesting.
It's all known too well that they practice a lot, but as many have also said, they are not perfect and quite frequently they make mistakes or false judgments or have bad timings. You said it yourself several pages ago, and now you're contradicting yourself. That aside, against DTs and storms AND limited scans, bio is surely a suicide.
It's still the only shot he has,trying to wait and turtle on 2 bases with mines is an even worse option because the protoss can just choose to macro and expand more instead of attacking when he sees that there are vultures instead of a bio attack. It's still the better choice. It's a bad decision on its own but Flash can't escape the position he was already so he needs to make do, same with trying to hold a 9 pool with a 12 hatch. You've already done the build, you can't transition out of it into a more optimal build.
He's definitely not too deep within it and can turn his way back. Why not choose the better tactics when the one you're doing is suicidal, and the other tactics is viable?
You just answered your own question. Flash knew exactly what he was up against and if he thought he could've transitioned to something better he would have. He still chose to go with his bio timing vs templar tech despite it being an uphill battle (maybe 5% or less win rate with their respective builds). Flash still chose biomech as the best tactic because your idiotic mech transition is completely non-viable in that situation. Just because you don't understand why it's not viable doesn't mean it is (multiple people have posted explaining the many ways in which toss destroys a mech transition in the context of that game). Like Caihead I challenge you to find ONE game in the history of bw where multiple production structures and tech are cancelled that late by a progamer to transition into something completely different. Now assuming you can't, your thinking either revolutionizes a 10 year old game or is fundamentally flawed. I'm going with the latter.
And what is it that you just said? Theorycrafting based on nothing at all? Like I said, as much as I can't find a game with such a situation, you have absolutely nothing to prove that the commitment Flash made is the best way possible and instead just ignorantly and mindlessly repeating about your "understanding of the matchup".
I used build analysis, I stated building times for units and buildings, I stated flash's lack of gas mining at the time because of the bio mech build and how it wouldn't be possible to produce a mech army not to mention his lack of mech upgrades, I stated why flash can't use units to scout nor can he use scans to scout and why his scout was denied, I stated research times for key researches like mines / speed / storm, I stated what Flash was able to see at what time and why he would choose to continue the build. I made note of the fact that flash lost scvs with an economical build so jangbi and flash are pretty even on economy especially since flash cut scvs for his build. And I stated what possible transitions the protoss could have gone with at the time based on what flash knows, and how the game would play out if a transition like you said would happen, namely protoss expand at will, crush flash while he has an absence of units, ability to scout and deny aggression or macro instead of aggression if he sees mines with the dt's, deny flash's third indefinitely due to army size. You can see all of that if you just go back a few pages or hell, look in this conversation in spoilers.
And then you tell me it's all based on nothing.
*throws hands up in the air* w/e not worth my time
If it's not worth your time why bother replying in the first place? I've seen way too many times in this thread alone when you contradict yourself.
As I have said over 9000 times, as much as my suggested strategy is theorycrafting, you've got nothing more than that. All your analysis aims to one scenario where Flash would get demolished if he decided not to stick to bio. Mine is to get to the point that not going bio can result in a better situation for him. Yeah, I have read what you wrote many pages back, but you can also see my arguments back there too. I too have analyzed the situation and the build, the timings of units and buildings and pushes and attacks, the fact that T can still cancel the 2 unfinished raxes, that Jangbi opted for non-stop DTs right off the bat, that he was busing building up his expansion even before he used his DTs, that stim research still not done yet, that an all-in from P can be even less likely if Flash can stop P from getting intelligence, since with that build P would not get obs for a while. And most importantly I've said countless times that going bio versus DT-storms combo is the suicidal method for T, especially when P already knew it. And what you did was throwing all the above aside and like "Hell no, my way is the only way that's possible and acceptable."
The main problem is your theorycrafting seems to be based on a very superficial understanding of the matchup whereas Caihead's actually makes sense. It's not even resources that are the main issue (though 3 medics + the scv cut and losses + the rax cancels are substantial setbacks), it's timing. Such late factories just don't give flash options to punish the toss third or take one of his own. You might as well just forfeit. You can keep calling us ignorant and stating your opinion is just as valid as much as you like but it's just not. You can't find a single game as an example. You wouldn't be able to find a pro or high level amateur player that thinks your idea isn't retarded. Your thinking just isn't viable in an actual game of BW, especially one against the best current PvT on the planet or just about any P that knows what they're doing. Noone in this thread has thought your idea was a good one. What's your highest ICCUP rank, and with what race? Do you actually play this game? How are you this stubborn and ignorant... I thought you might be trolling but I guess you've somehow deluded yourself into thinking you know what you're talking about...
Again, you yourself can't find a game where the situation doesn't work so you are in no position to criticize me. I on the other hand think your concept of "just stick with it no matter how suicidal it is" is no less idiotic than how you think mine is. It also shows how ignorant you are.
The burden of proof is on you to show how your proposed strategy actually works. Flash was actually close to pulling the bio off, jangbi was gas stretched and only had the 1 templar out cause he needed enough dt's. Flash wasn't scanning directly on the dt's to kill them but just catching them on the edge to try and get a two for one which would've swung the game. 1 misstep from jangbi and he becomes vulnerable, storm comes 15 seconds later and he's in trouble. Then maybe flash can transition if he kills enough probes at the nat or the nexus. Jangbi played it pretty much perfectly but if he didnt Flash would've at least had a shot.
The reason we can't show you a game where the transition doesn't work is because no pro has done something as bad as what you're suggesting in a live game. Considering the amount of practice games played by pro's and b-teamers I'm pretty sure they would've figured out the viability of cancelling production and tech that late.
You're basically saying Flash was idiotic in his play and that both Flash and Jangbi didn't understand how that situation plays out in a cancel tech scenario.
I noticed you dodged my question and I'm getting the impression you're an armchair theorycrafter. Again, do you actually play this game?
Do you realize that you just prove the reason I said you're ignorant? Look back at what you just wrote and tell me what part of it isn't theorycrafting? And you're telling me how bad my "theorycrafting" is. Yeah, that makes sense. And yes, I actually do play this game, from 2002, but not anymore since last year.
Hi, its pretty much decided when they start a BO in a high level game. Trust Jangbi's interview. Cancelling buildings or not spending minerals only put them more behind. Flash can only go full attack at that point and hope Jangbi commit amateur mistakes of missing 4 storms/losing all HTs for nothing etc..
At the point of time when Flash lost like 5 SCVs he already have 80% chance losing the game regardless. Thats how the margin for pros are. Jangbi can still play standard and pump goons and win or pick a tech. Flash cut SCVs to all in immediately when he lost 5 SCVs.
On May 25 2012 12:26 BreakerD wrote: Flash should've canceled his 2 barricks, gone for factories, and hard turtle. He's won game where everyone thought he lost by just turtling.
Turtling wouldn't have worked too. The moment 5 SCVs lost for nothing he'd lost.
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JangBi<Gladiator>
Flash
Hydra<Neo Ground Zero>![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/xlE1g.png)
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should be a good one hahaha
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