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On May 10 2012 05:06 pirsq wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 04:59 superstartran wrote:
The Starcraft 2 Community has put up/accepted Destiny for who he is for a very long time. So why the fuck are people riding his ballsack right now for no apparent reason when this was daily shit that has occurred for so long that most people don't even care? The 19th century United States had put up with slavery for what it is for a very long time. So who was this Lincoln dude riding their ballsacks back then for no apparent reason when this was daily shit that has occurred for so long that most people didn't even care? The fact that something has been happening for a long time is not a reason to keep it that way.
Did Lincoln go into the South, burn down every single home that owned slaves while also taking all of their possessions away in order to free the slaves all on a whim? No. Lincoln wanted to subdue the rebellion in the South, while also imposing minimal punishments and restrictions after the war was over. He also didn't even want freedom for slaves at first; he simply viewed it as a means to end the war at the start of the Civil War, since he knew that destabilizing the economy in the South by causing slave rebellions/runaways would help the Union really put the pressure on the South.
Not to mention the issue of slavery was there from the fucking start; people had an issue with it for a VERY long time, and were extremely vocal about it. The issue of slavery went so far as back to the ratification of the Constitution, so don't fucking try to compare the institution of slavery in the United States to what is happening here right now.
The Starcraft Community brought the fucking sledgehammer for a personal grudge match that could have easily been resolved in a PM chat. Destiny will be Destiny; it's his prerogative to do whatever the flying fuck he wants. I don't like the guy, and I never watch his stream. But for the community to go out there and attempt to ruin him when there was no negative sentiment against him (UNTIL Warden threw up that thread) only demonstrates the community's mob mentality.
Remember, this is a guy who various Starcraft 2 Community members thought was funny, creative, etc. and a great personality. Yes, he has negative traits about him, and yes, they should be fixed. What I'm saying is that you shouldn't have the right to complain when you should have complained way fucking long ago. Alot of people liked him before this incident, and really no one had an issue with him up until this point. TL allowed Destiny to be a featured streamer, and he's a well known and prominent figure in both the TL and Reddit Starcraft communities. Yet the whole fucking place flips on a dime the second someone gets butthurt by one of his insults, and then throws up a witchhunt thread just to fuck with him.
It's like the people out there in America that bitch about the economy and shit but never vote. That's exactly what happened here. No one expressed their discontent with Destiny being a prominent member in the Starcraft community despite his flaws. People actually liked him and didn't have an issue with him at all. Same with Orb, and various other players. Idra is also another player who gets away with alot of shit that is almost on the same level as racism (calling people retards is highly offensive, especially towards those who may have some sort of mental handicap or those with family members/friends that are mentally handicapped). And yet now here we are, with a bunch of people basically out for Destiny's blood because all of a sudden he's a fucking demon for hurling an insult that he's hurled for years on end just because Warden got massively butthurt.
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On May 10 2012 05:12 superstartran wrote:
But for the community to go out there and attempt to ruin him when there was no negative sentiment against him (UNTIL Warden threw up that thread) only demonstrates the community's mob mentality.
Actually, the point when people started getting angry was the point when Destiny personally went into the thread and on Twitter, posting about how he didn't care and insulting anyone who tried to raise a valid point against racism. It's completely his own fault.
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On May 10 2012 05:18 pirsq wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 05:12 superstartran wrote:
But for the community to go out there and attempt to ruin him when there was no negative sentiment against him (UNTIL Warden threw up that thread) only demonstrates the community's mob mentality. Actually, the point when people started getting angry was the point when Destiny personally went into the thread and on Twitter, posting about how he didn't care and insulting anyone who tried to raise a valid point against racism. It's completely his own fault.
Indeed, Destiny escalated the situation further. However, it would have been a non-issue if Warden didn't throw up the thread (there was 0 reason to, it was a personal issue that should have been resolved PRIVATELY). I'm not saying I condone Destiny's actions, what I'm saying is that the community is so quick to turn on people just because of some stupid shit, and really that only demonstrates the low level of maturity of the community itself.
As I stated before, it was a situation that was escalated by everyone, including those who didn't take action (moderators on both Reddit and TL). Everyone had a part to play, and everyone should be ashamed that it even got to this point.
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Everyone wrote::
witchhunt witchhunt witchhunt witchhunt witchhunt People seem to really love that word around here. So let's make the analogy more concrete, shall we? In this analogy, being a witch means making racial slurs. It's bad, but in your opinion, not enough to justify burning a witch. Okay, let's stick with that opinion, and take a look at what happened.
Act I: Several weeks ago, the community gathered to burn a witch, a fellow named Orb. Another fellow named Destiny nonetheless continues his witchcraft, unmoved by the whole situation.
Act II: Some dude announces to the community: "Destiny is a witch! I have evidence!"
Act III: The community gathers to discuss what they should do.
Act IV: Destiny arrives. "Look at all the fucks I don't give!" "I have a right to be a witch, I'll do whatever I want!" "Why did I choose witchcraft? It was the first thing that came to mind, really." "You're a moderator? I don't care, I'm going to insult you too!"
Act V: The community burns Destiny.
Threads get made about unimportant things all the time. Warden's thread wasn't the first to bring up this issue, and if he hadn't made one, it would only have been a matter of time before someone else did. The only act above that could have been avoided was Destiny coming in to stir up the hornet's nest.
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What a terrible community this is. Stop crying to the farmer over every bread crumb on the counter.
Quantic has an awesome CEO.
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On May 10 2012 05:22 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 05:18 pirsq wrote:On May 10 2012 05:12 superstartran wrote:
But for the community to go out there and attempt to ruin him when there was no negative sentiment against him (UNTIL Warden threw up that thread) only demonstrates the community's mob mentality. Actually, the point when people started getting angry was the point when Destiny personally went into the thread and on Twitter, posting about how he didn't care and insulting anyone who tried to raise a valid point against racism. It's completely his own fault. Indeed, Destiny escalated the situation further. However, it would have been a non-issue if Warden didn't throw up the thread (there was 0 reason to, it was a personal issue that should have been resolved PRIVATELY). I'm not saying I condone Destiny's actions, what I'm saying is that the community is so quick to turn on people just because of some stupid shit, and really that only demonstrates the low level of maturity of the community itself. As I stated before, it was a situation that was escalated by everyone, including those who didn't take action (moderators on both Reddit and TL). Everyone had a part to play, and everyone should be ashamed that it even got to this point.
Warden's thread helped raise the awareness of a very serious issue, so that hopefully, it wont happen again. This is a good thing. It should have been resolved privately within Quantic when they signed Destiny, It wasnt. The community was not quick, hes had plenty of chances and time to learn how to behave.
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Pretty much, Destiny should have been on thin ice the moment they signed him, considering his track record. These are contracts we're talking about it, and they had the opportunity to take the time to absolutely ensure he was going to commit to not tarnishing their image. That should have been the only he would have ever gotten himself signed by a serious team.
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here's a better solution
how about progamers dont use racial slurs? pretty much every other industry follows this gold standard. i don't see anyone crying about those industries.
until then, WITCH HUNT AWAY!
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This thread is so pointless. It's like the third thread that's totally devolved into "Destiny was wrong" and "No! Destiny was right".
Someone used a racial slur in a hateful manner while representing a larger organization/business. Someone saw this, was offended, and complained. The person who used the racial slur had to step down.
This happens all the fucking time, in all sorts of communities. When you use racially charged words in front of 14k people regularly, you should expect somebody out there might get offended. And regardless of whatever theory of linguistics you want to try to justify use of said words, most companies aren't going to give a shit - they're just going to ask the guy who called a Korean a "gook" to get his act together or to step down.
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On May 10 2012 06:30 fishjie wrote:
here's a better solution
how about progamers dont use racial slurs? pretty much every other industry follows this gold standard. i don't see anyone crying about those industries.
until then, WITCH HUNT AWAY!
You can't remove prejudice. Impossible and ignorant.
As for "every other industry follows this standard"? I can tell you that those industries are rated under committees and regulations. Because of that, you don't see racial slurs in mainstream media. That doesn't mean they don't exist.
And as for thinking a witch hunt is beneficial? You've had 2 CEOs telling you its not. Nuff said.
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On May 10 2012 09:45 Prodigal wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 06:30 fishjie wrote:
here's a better solution
how about progamers dont use racial slurs? pretty much every other industry follows this gold standard. i don't see anyone crying about those industries.
until then, WITCH HUNT AWAY! You can't remove prejudice. Impossible and ignorant. As for "every other industry follows this standard"? I can tell you that those industries are rated under committees and regulations. Because of that, you don't see racial slurs in mainstream media. That doesn't mean they don't exist. And as for thinking a witch hunt is beneficial? You've had 2 CEOs telling you its not. Nuff said.
If prejudice could simply disappear then the best way to fight it is to wait it out. But since it is impossible for all prejudice to disappear, we as a society have to remain strong and vigilant against it.
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People have got the taste in their mouth that it gets stuff done
If the catalyst of "Emailing sponsors" wasn't mentioned in the Orb situation, to why Alex Garfield had to step quickly to stop it before is got out of control, I feel like it wouldn't have happened this time.
People know its how to get something done, they know it worked last time I must do it again. They should have thought logically "I should email the player/team in a mature way" rather than a "EMAIL ALL THE SPONSORS"
If you saw 1000 emails in your inbox telling you to never do something your going to take notice, if your team gets 1000 emails in one day they are going to notice.
It comes down to one simple thing.
People are always correct on the internet. Their opinion is correct and you have to agree and everything they say.
The main viewer base for eSports is the 15-25year old males. Everyone is immature as hell and when a few hundred people are doing something its the coolest thing in the world to agree with and make the single person they are attacking feel bad. The logic of laughing at the kid at school in a big group when they do something to make them feel bad.
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I think the "mob" side has begun pushing the view that whoever doesn't agree with them is a racist. Just to clarify things:
• We agree that racism or racial slurs is unacceptable, regardless of the context.
• We agree that the such actions should be punishable.
• We agree that things wouldn't have become a shitstorm if Destiny didn't "fight back."
• We don't agree that punishment was appropriate, on grounds that no other real sporting organization does such punishments, regardless of the extremity of the cases; note the Mayweather (racism against Filipinos, including me), McEnroe (calling tennis officials and the audience vultures and trash), Woods (infidelity) and Llodra (racism against Chinese) issues that I have repeatedly brought up. None of these players were punished in the same way we did, and at the same time their actions didn't ruin their sport (cut that offensive behavior/speech = instaruin, it's fallacious when you look at history).
• We don't agree that you should run to the sponsors immediately, regardless of the fact that you might think that the team won't react. And even if the team reacts, YOU STILL MESSAGED SPONSORS, as was the case with the Orb issue (EG's CEO clearly stated that they will be investigating the matter and that the community should withhold judgement, but NO, the community just can't wait); in short, you will still message sponsors regardless of the team's actions (as proven by past incidents), so stop claiming that you won't if the team takes action.
• We don't agree that there should be an e-sports regulatory body (ala KeSPA, but on an international level). I was wrong to have believed that we could come to the same agreement, but we couldn't because it seems the "mob" is enjoying its position of power (as is the case with all instances of mob power).
• We don't agree that the recent actions of the community is scaring both outside audiences, current players, potential players and sponsors. It's scary for the audience the same way Islamic fundamentalists (what the mob and the fundamentalists have in common is an absolute belief in their total moral ascendancy) is scary to those outside their group. It's scary for current and future players because they are under the scrutiny of mob rule; even if the mob represents a small part of the community, as long as it's a mob, that mob can boot them. It's scary to sponsors because it's a potential PR nightmare; imagine the community nit-picking on smaller issues (mob rule leads to that; my country's been there so I know), and the sponsors constantly having to cater to that nit-picking. That costs them more than the money they can make dealing with it.
I hope that made things clear. No insults intended; just plain observations and a little bit of historical context for ya'll.
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This is like the only situation I've seen on the web where the community at large is doing the right thing and the activist ideologues are brain-decay crazy. This must be what it's like to be a republican on the internet.
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Must be something of the sad duality where half of the nerdy kids being bullied go on the internet to bully others in a vicious, mindless cycle.
Then the other half help to enable them by trying to make sure that no one, not even the intolerant pricks, ever has to face any criticism for their actions.
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On May 10 2012 10:29 DN.rSquar3d wrote:
I think the "mob" side has begun pushing the view that whoever doesn't agree with them is a racist.
You make a very well-structured and thought-out argument, but unfortunately I don't agree with your premise. There is no "mob", but a large number of independent individuals who reached the same conclusion. Sure, there's a bandwagon effect, just like there's a bandwagon effect for the people defending Destiny. The point is that if someone makes an informed decision to send a message to a corporation, why should anyone else have any right say whether they should or should not do that?
I was one of the people who emailed Razer. For the record, here are some of my reasons for approaching them instead of Quantic:
1. I have a closer relationship to Razer than Quantic. I occasionally purchase products from Razer, I follow their new hardware releases, and I'm familiar with their ticket system for feedback. In contrast, I do not follow Quantic at all, and have no idea whom I should contact or when I might expect a response.
2. I felt the team management were themselves highly accountable for hiring Destiny and publicly endorsing his behaviour, and thus would have a conflict of interest in dealing with complaints. (I have a blog post that goes into more detail about this, which can be accessed from the link next to my name above.)
3. Several people claimed to have contacted them in the past about the same issue and received no response; I didn't see any reason not to take their word for it.
Presumably, these reasons don't apply to you, which is why you didn't contact Razer. Other people who did contact Razer may have had other reasons. My point is, just because we made the same decision does not make us a mob.
As for the people suggesting that you are racist because you didn't contact Razer, just ignore them.
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Point taken. From my perspective, those that e-mailed Razer have good intentions. In fact, the way you put it, I'd like to believe that your e-mail to Razer wasn't the (presumably) usual "Fuck you for supporting Destiny, I won't support your products anymore" sort, but rather "Please do something about Destiny, because of his behavior" sort.
If so, then that's the kind of e-mailing the sponsors I can actually agree to. But I still think that contacting the team first should be protocol; the community should rally to that end first in the future, rather than circumvent the team (which basically illegitimizes them and their position in the community), which was one of the things that the SOTG cast noted. I think, if the teams receive complains (i.e. EG in IdrA's case) despite the fact that they know of his prior behavior, they will take action.
And I will keep on reiterating that the next step isn't to look for the next player to crucify, but rather to push for the formation of an international e-sports regulatory body (even for just StarCtaft and StarCraft 2). Maybe some of the TL admins or staff (which have done well in their reaction to Destiny by defeaturing his stream, something I applauded because it was professional) can be part of it or start it off. I don't know exactly how we'd go about it, but I believe we have to go to that path if we want e-sports to be truly professional.
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On May 10 2012 11:37 DN.rSquar3d wrote:
I think, if the teams receive complains (i.e. EG in IdrA's case) despite the fact that they know of his prior behavior, they will take action.
With the precedent set by the Destiny case, we'll probably start seeing teams take action even before they receive complaints, which I think is the way it should be.
On May 10 2012 11:37 DN.rSquar3d wrote:
And I will keep on reiterating that the next step [is] to push for the formation of an international e-sports regulatory body (even for just StarCtaft and StarCraft 2). ... I don't know exactly how we'd go about it, but I believe we have to go to that path if we want e-sports to be truly professional.
It's all depends on the financial success of the professional scene. If there's not much money in it and a lot of amateurs around, it's not worth the effort in setting up a formal regulatory body. On the other hand, if the money is pouring in, we'll see organisations become regulatory bodies by themselves. With large sponsorship contracts at stake, leagues and teams will actively enforce professionalism within their ranks. With the salary/prizemoney disputes that keep coming up, I wouldn't be too surprised to see a players' union sprout up at some point. These sorts of organisations appear in sports all around the world, and their existence is a natural consequence of increasing professionalism (in the sense of being paid vs being unpaid), and in turn promote more professionalism (in the sense of acting responsibly).
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Well said. 
Finally someone I can agree with. I actually believe we'll soon get to the point that there will be a regulatory body soon. I mean, we keep seeing that the sponsors, prize pots, etc., are steadily increasing, and we're going to need that.
What I want to see is less of these "community e-mails sponsors" debacles, and instead us rallying and calling for the teams and sponsors to get together and form that regulatory body.
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The Starcraft Community brought the fucking sledgehammer for a personal grudge match that could have easily been resolved in a PM chat. Destiny will be Destiny; it's his prerogative to do whatever the flying fuck he wants. I don't like the guy, and I never watch his stream. But for the community to go out there and attempt to ruin him when there was no negative sentiment against him (UNTIL Warden threw up that thread) only demonstrates the community's mob mentality.
You are just a fan boy. Come out of the closet and admit it. You are so biased defending Destiny, people would think Warden was the offender and Destiny the victim. Destiny being destiny? How about Warden being Warden? And are you serious when you say stuff like there were no negative sentiment against Destiney before Warden started that thread? This is what I call blind fanboyism. Destiny is what I call a ticking time bomb. It was only matter of time. And no you can't do whatever the fuck you want when you are sponsored by a professional company and when you are featured in one of the biggest gaming site. Maybe in kindergarten and if you are 7, not in the real world buddy.
Remember, this is a guy who various Starcraft 2 Community members thought was funny, creative, etc. and a great personality. Yes, he has negative traits about him, and yes, they should be fixed. What I'm saying is that you shouldn't have the right to complain when you should have complained way fucking long ago. Alot of people liked him before this incident, and really no one had an issue with him up until this point. TL allowed Destiny to be a featured streamer, and he's a well known and prominent figure in both the TL and Reddit Starcraft communities. Yet the whole fucking place flips on a dime the second someone gets butthurt by one of his insults, and then throws up a witchhunt thread just to fuck with him.
Completely delusional of reality. I can say for sure that 2/3rd of the community see Destiny as an immature douche bag that lives in his own little world with a mindset of a 12 years old. He is at best a high diamond level player. He has his own little niche group that are loud, obnoxious, and just as asinine as Destiny himself. If he were to leave the scene now, the vast majority of the community won't miss him.
It's like the people out there in America that bitch about the economy and shit but never vote. That's exactly what happened here. No one expressed their discontent with Destiny being a prominent member in the Starcraft community despite his flaws. People actually liked him and didn't have an issue with him at all. Same with Orb, and various other players. Idra is also another player who gets away with alot of shit that is almost on the same level as racism (calling people retards is highly offensive, especially towards those who may have some sort of mental handicap or those with family members/friends that are mentally handicapped). And yet now here we are, with a bunch of people basically out for Destiny's blood because all of a sudden he's a fucking demon for hurling an insult that he's hurled for years on end just because Warden got massively butthurt.
Look at all the new threads created by Destiny himself, his apologists and his fans in TL, reddit, 4chan. It's clear to me who is really massively butthurt. And this is over a little thread created by a non-prominent member of the starcraft community. (see what I did there lol) Warden addressed an issue that needed to be addressed and he delivered. I know some are too young or too immature to realize how big of an issue this can be in real life but to dump all the blame on Warden who didn't even contact the sponsor is silly.
Discussion wasn't that bad until fan boys started flooding in and made it bigger than what it really should have been. It wouldn't have gone 150 pages and 2 threads closed if it weren't for the drama queens, mob lynching, witch hunting and enraged justin bieber fans (*destiny fans) Did you guys even apologize to Warden after spreading false information of him BMing ala the real witchhunt? The first 75 page were mostly people calling Warden a hypocrite on a fabricated basis and Destiny throwing childish insults to TL members and mods. No wonder people emailed the sponsor. And just NO, stuff like this isn't killing E-sport. There are no previous examples where sponsors pulled off an entire scene because of one douche bag. Enough with the strawman argument. In fact, hiding it under the rug is what most likely will kill E-sport.
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EPT
