TL Mafia LIV - Page 55
Forum Index > TL Mafia |
PaqMan
United States1475 Posts
| ||
layabout
United Kingdom2600 Posts
On May 09 2012 07:00 papapanda wrote: BH, I have made cases before against both marvellosity and layabout. For marvellosity, he hasn't been making further actions that link him to scum except his mention of Kepachi (dismiss-able) and maybe his hard defense for layabout (who is scum IMO). That said, layabout is the better lynch option because of his support of katina, kenpachi(kinda), and just his general lynch the easy guy attitude. Wish he would actually defend himself instead of telling me to go read the thread:< Your question was asking me to explain a post that i had already explained in another post after somebody else asked me to explain it. Of course i told you to go read the thread. You "question": http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=14614175 "..layabout your defense is saying katina was talking sense.... Please further clarify your defense for me." From my posts: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=14591880 Katina has made posts indicative of intelligence. I do not think we should lynch katina. psst, Paq! look up How is " i think that a player is intelligent i don't think we should lynch them" a hard defence? Does giving evidence as to why you think they are intelligent when asked and then saying that you felt something they did something scummy constitute a hard defence? On May 06 2012 00:52 layabout wrote: discussion of katina: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=14591170 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=14591786 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=14591832 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=14592117 My post doesn't say why i thought she was town in fact i just wanted to say that her posts made sense and i didn't want to kill somebody that was making sense when there were so many players that weren't making sense or even playing the game. The "defence" was literally: "I think this person is intelligent, let's not kill them day1" there was some evidence too as i was asked for it | ||
layabout
United Kingdom2600 Posts
On May 09 2012 08:22 PaqMan wrote: ebwop: throw in the fact that you were hard-defending your scumbuddy KP. Which is weird because the same reasons that you wanted BM lynched could have been applied to KP. Hence the "for fuck sake". | ||
PaqMan
United States1475 Posts
| ||
marvellosity
United Kingdom36156 Posts
layabout Alright, for reference I spoiler Paqman's case against layabout below. There are some points I agree with, others a bit less so. + Show Spoiler + On May 08 2012 11:56 PaqMan wrote: layabout, and why he's getting my Finger of Suspicion. #1 I'll begin with a link to his case against blubby: here In that post, layabout makes no mention whatsoever of DYH's case against blubb. Not even a little comment, even though he made it 4 hours after DYH. I think that it's pretty obvious DYH's case on blubb influenced layabout to make his own. So I looked into it more. What struck me as really odd, was the fact that he had no FoS, no read, nothing at all on blubb prior to DYH's case. In fact, layabout's only mention of blubb is when SA asks him what he thinks about blubb, seen here: + Show Spoiler + On May 07 2012 03:18 layabout wrote: here: This is a strange thing to assert when as a townie you do not know who scum are and if they thought that Katina was coming back or not. Also when he votes for me he emphasises that it is to get me to answer his question. He begins by saying that i am scum. If he believes this then surely that should be the reason for his vote. By saying that he wants a response he gives himself a way to back out of pushing me. If he truly believes that i am scum then he would have no reason to do this. In which he makes no opinion and takes no stance whatsoever. #2 And here are two little points that need to be noted: + Show Spoiler [P1] + On May 04 2012 07:35 layabout wrote: BH you are just bitter because you blew your own leg off after you tried to rocket jump with the wrong boots on. I think killing something awesome could be a good move. If we still have no candidates when i get up then i think we should just lynch BM. What he's saying is that he wants to kill SomethingAwesome, but he's too damn lazy to build a case or make a push on him. He's also practically asking everyone to do the scumhunting for him while he sits back and chills. He doesn't make a read, take a stance, or form an opinion on SA. The only time he ever mentions SA is if he is defending himself. + Show Spoiler [P2] + On May 06 2012 00:55 layabout wrote: we should kill Palmar tomorrow Later on, he posts this little baby. Again, just like with SomethingAwesome, he makes the suggestion of wanting to kill Palmar. He made no case on Palmar besides the little comment. When asked why, he posts this: On May 06 2012 09:23 layabout wrote: @Mementoss i thought we should lynch Palmar over "any other lurker" because he showed basically no interest in the lynch at all. Palmar is lazy as scum but when he town he usually bothers to do ... "stuff". Of course, he had his reasons for it: + Show Spoiler + On May 07 2012 03:50 layabout wrote: Yesterday, between the hours of (UK time) 5pm and 1 am i was otherwise engaged.+ Show Spoiler + the FA cup final was on Now try think of a way to write that without it sounding lame. And I'm willing to give him benefit of the doubt, mainly because there are other reasons to think he is scum. #3 Just about more than half of layabout's posts consist only defending himself. His only other notable thing is when he puts attention and calls out jdub: + Show Spoiler + On May 07 2012 10:00 layabout wrote: @papapanda, The number of players that make sense is far smaller than you appear to think it is. You should treasure the ones that do. Johnnywub: skim through his filter from Area 53 mafia http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=329128&user=99700 These are some of his comments (+1 from host) after the game. + Show Spoiler + On May 05 2012 09:18 iGrok wrote: Johnny is probably town MVP. Matt is scum MVP. Also, well done by scum not to give up when St.Daniel got modkilled. On May 05 2012 09:06 johnnywup wrote: it was too late, i was away and it was 5:01. also fml i feel so shitty now. I had decent reads but I can't convey reads for shit. On May 05 2012 09:28 johnnywup wrote: im sorry i failed you town On May 05 2012 09:35 johnnywup wrote: bleh i feel so guilty for this game. if i conveyed my reads a little better or something i dont know but bleh On May 05 2012 09:41 johnnywup wrote: i thought you were scum mattchew and thats primarily because you allowed an ottox lynch with 2 confirmed scum. but no one listened to me so ugh On May 05 2012 09:49 johnnywup wrote: matt, the timing didn't make sense as town which was my second biggest issue. but no one listened to me. urghh The key things to note are that Johnny:
I see no signs of his town game so far. johnnywub is sitting back and watching the thread. When i called him out he instantly de-lurked, said nothing, and left. + Show Spoiler [Today's post's] + On May 07 2012 04:45 johnnywup wrote: I'll be completely honest, I've been addicted to that 999 game so I haven't been posting much. Also I don't want any gold stars. i looked at a filter, saw something odd, pointed it out. that's what all town should be doing. Speaking of which I'm gonna look over some filters now. I'll report back when I have something substantial On May 07 2012 04:52 johnnywup wrote: lol i love how NT says "it would be correct to be shooting into the lurker crowd" while lurking himself On May 07 2012 04:54 johnnywup wrote: i just noticed that from your post and thought it was interesting. i guess it is rehashing. I'm just agreeing that it's strange and scummy On May 07 2012 05:02 johnnywup wrote: Paqman Marv BH and Mementoss are all saying the same thing at approximately the same time? weird, maybe you just agree with one another and want to quote it as if you found it yourself? O_o But even then, he makes no stance. He doesn't pressure jdub, doesn't make some sort fos, does nothing except call him out for lurking. I would say that that is his only other contributing post. Read through his filter and it becomes apparent that he puts more effort into defending himself than hunting scum. #4 The next thing I want to bring up is how quickly he comes to defend Kenpachi. + Show Spoiler + On May 07 2012 21:48 layabout wrote: If blubbdavid Nova_Terra and Paqman are the remaining scum then kenpachi has got all of them. On May 07 2012 21:51 layabout wrote: frogg we are not lynching kenpachi. don't be silly. On May 07 2012 22:12 layabout wrote: I would love to know how you felt that this: + Show Spoiler + On May 07 2012 04:37 Nova_Terra wrote: Next, Kenpachi Absolutely worthless, if you consider his connection case useful i dunno what to say Vote: Kenpachi On May 07 2012 13:19 PaqMan wrote: Just found out that I'm probably going to miss the lynch. I guess it doesn't bother anyone how fast a wagon formed on NT? I don't feel comfortable putting my vote back onto him. Hence this quote: His only post since D2 started. He ninja-voted D1, isn't contributing and the few posts he has are very lackluster. From what I understand Kenpachi is a veteran, yet he's been the least helpful out of everyone (excluding Froggynoddy, who is inactive). Also this gem: + Show Spoiler + On May 05 2012 06:31 Kenpachi wrote: ARE YOU GUYS KIDDING ME? DO YOU NOT NOTICE THE TREND HERE? NT i thought at first was not mafia but then layabout cames along and throws in POLICY LYNCH TIME NO NO NO WTF? NO i believe layabout and NT are mafia together because NT NT had aroused suspicions in thread andended in hotshit. He was completely saved by something so stupid. layabout, as his buttbuddy saves him with such a weak push that only the newbs are following. by experience, policy lynch almost always never works. its a scare tactic, not an actual method used to lynch people, especially day 1 i also believe marvellosity is mafia with them because he said NT is scummy and changes his mind like nothing happened such a contradiction, they were made about 3 hours apart. BM is a potent player and everyone knows that. I feel day 1 lynching a veteran is the worst thing you can do. If i were mafia, id put BM near the top of my priority list just because of his sheer experience. He made his scum reads and calls out who he believes to be the remaining scum team. But he doesn't push for their lynch or pressure them or anything at all. As of now I think Kenpachi is a better option than NT. ##Vote Kenpachi I'm hoping I'll make it back before the deadline but I'm not too sure. was the best lynch to support? Why dont you have a look through here and tell me what you learn about kenpachi's play? Then address the cases on the people that should get lynched: Blubbdavid or Nova_Terra or might get mislynched: layabout. On May 07 2012 22:26 layabout wrote: EBWOP*So you are saying that it doesn't matter if your logic for voting on day1 is weak/contradictory/scummy because we have limited information? But Kenpachi has been more "active" than froggnoddy, Eiii, l10f, ghost_403 johnnywub, grush, mementoss, sinensis and papaganda. He might not even have PC acess at the momnet That post^ is complete BS that I don't even understand how he could have possibly came to that conclusion. The only person he's been more active than is froggynoddy, and even then Froggy's posts have way more quality than KP's does. On May 07 2012 22:35 layabout wrote: It was more of an "inactivity from a player that's always inactive is meaningless". There is also some merit to the notion that scum will try to lynch Kenpachi. I am not sure what you are trying to say but blue pyro's are trackers not not vigis. Again, you cannot be freaking serious. You pushed for BM's lynch, am I correct? SO HOW ARE YOU DEFENDING KP WHEN KP'S PLAY MATCHES EXACTLY LIKE BM! lurk, lurk, lurk, inactive, spam one-liners, purposely not contribute, purposely play anti-town. KP said that he's so busy he cannot possibly play, but he could have EASILY come up with a small read/fos/case on someone. Instead, he wastes what little time he has to shit up the thread. KP is the most anti-town player in the game right now, and you're defending him hard. Remind me why you wanted BM lynched. #5 + Show Spoiler + On May 05 2012 07:04 Bill Murray wrote: well, layabout hopping on the lynch makes me really suspect him he would normally leave me around if he's town of my wagon, i would like you all to lynch layabout On May 08 2012 04:22 blubbdavid wrote: layabout is scum, SA is town I will not move my vote from layabout -snipped- Hmm. The victims of our mislynches both suggest to lynch layabout. And so far we're ignoring them. Why I believe layabout to be scum boils down to; 1) Has nothing on blubb, but as soon as DYH pushes a case and lynch on him, layabout makes a weak case and pushes it forward as if he had been suspecting him for a while. 2) layabout does not create his own scumreads, does not establish his own opinions, and does not make his own stance. He has other people do the work for him, and then he starts pushing reads. Basically, he's not scum hunting. 3) All of layabout's "good, quality posts" are the only ones where he is defending himself, not doing any actual scumhunting. 4) People previously thought his analysis on Kat was an attempt at soft-defending. But after individually separating his posts, we can all clearly see how hard he is defending Kenpachi. KP's play is awfully similar to BM's. 5) I'm restating this one because I feel it's one of the stronger points against layabout: He does not actively hunt scum. All he does is push other people's reads. I retract my FoS on him. I'm confident that layabout is scum and I want him lynched tomorrow. His push of a policy lynch on BM followed by his defence of Kenpachi is, as you rightly point out, totally contradictory. This looks scummy. This is a pretty large part of your case, but given the number of posts layabout dedicates to it, it seems fair enough. It also seems correct that his case on blubb came out of the blue a little, and the post you quote in your point about blubb is surprisingly vague - it's as if he's narrating a story rather than giving an opinion. I don't hold that much weight with the two dead mislynches thinking layabout was suspicious. It could be damning, it could not - this is more like confirmation evidence to me. The point on the jdub post is neutral - it was a good post, because it was calling jdub out for not playing to his town meta in any way. Where it falls down is that it doesn't actually make a definitive statement about jdub at the end - although the implication is clear. The strongest evidence against layabout is in summary points 3) and 5) in conjunction. layabout has spent practically the whole game defending himself, with the significant read on blubb being brought about by DoYouHas's case. If the accusations on layabout were so weak, why does he continually feel the need to defend himself? Answer them once (maybe even twice), but if they keep getting regurgitated he should move on and do scumhunting himself, as that is the best townie defence of all. It's well documented that it's a classic mafia mind-set to feel the need to defend yourself constantly, even after having already done so. I think layabout has a decent chance of flipping scum. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Nova_Terra The case against Nova_Terra is in many ways simpler. He actually has 4 pages of filter but precious little to say in any of it. Typical scum trait is lots of posts, little content. His one and only case so far was on Mementoss, and is remarkably incoherent and lacking in actual evidence. There are a lot of 'reasons' why Mementoss is scum, but no evidence to back it up. + Show Spoiler + On May 05 2012 06:00 Nova_Terra wrote: In accordance with popular demand, i will share my top scumread which is currently Mementoss (not based on OMGUS) mementoss starts off suggesting to policy lynch two people, etc. Makes a few totally unneccessary 1 liners, and then when he is called out on it he goes NO WAIT i has reason, then decided to teach us, which just came off freaking weird. Then he goes aggressive on layabout, throwing suspicion while not doing much of anything, then joins the Grush did something scummy this looks really bad group. not original. then after blazing notes something on me he joins in that too, and makes remarks in an unsure way, seeming to want to be able to backtrack if necessary. then, when called out on it, he goes into defensive aggression mode and suddenly gains massive confidence which hadnt been in his play before. Overall 1liners Enlightens us on 1 liners throws suspicion while not doing much at all joins scummy bandwagon seems unsure agrees with an Oh i noticed the same thing! makes arguments based on my meta, which is questionable entirely based on the fact that i never play this lurky, town or scum randomly gets massively confident, as opposed to his earlier play, its as if someone told him to be more sure and so ##Vote: Mementoss Moving swiftly on from Mementoss, this time we get a Kenpachi accusation: On May 07 2012 04:37 Nova_Terra wrote: Next, Kenpachi Absolutely worthless, if you consider his connection case useful i dunno what to say Vote: Kenpachi His case against him being, what? That he's worthless? That's not a case. When I prod him on why he dropped his case on Mementoss, we get this: On May 07 2012 05:16 Nova_Terra wrote: I never abandoned my case on mementoss. However i feel that a lynch on him has a lot of resistance and therefore i am expanding my horizons. . Well, actually he did abandon his case. He was throwing up a badly made case on Mementoss, and then he did not push it in any single way, and wildly stabs at Kenpachi. Yes, this is abandoning the case. While we're around Kenpachi: On May 09 2012 08:02 PaqMan wrote: The argument that NT "bussed" Kenpachi is so invalid. He made it known that he wanted KP dead more than 4 days ago. If anyone should look suspicious for bussing it should be me. Which I'm really really surprised no one has even mentioned that. It's so invalid? Need I remind you of LIII, where, I dunno, scum Mattchew repeatedly pushed for a scum BM lynch on days 1 and 2 (and possibly beyond?). He did this safely in the knowledge that BM wasn't going to be lynched at that time. You find layabout's case on blubb suspicious, but at least it isn't as outrageously wishy-washy as this: On May 07 2012 05:37 Nova_Terra wrote: I find blubb leaning slightly scum actually, as his filter is a mass of 1 liners which barely say anything of note and defense of himself. I do find it strange that he isnt pushing me if he is scum, because im an obvious target and it would be a super ez town lynch. On May 07 2012 05:46 Nova_Terra wrote: Marv seems good at posting early 1 liners and then aggressively onto easy and profitable bandwagons. he is one of my top scumreads that i had earlier and as you see he throws fingers at me for good measure. The following 2 posts are obvious: On May 07 2012 23:35 Nova_Terra wrote: Finished my exam, will sleep for a while then try to be useful :D On May 09 2012 06:32 Nova_Terra wrote: I'll post some analysis after classes tomorrow, but i do want to note how i had an accurate read on kenpachi and left my vote on him. there was no reason at that point in time to bus kenpachi, had i been scum. Always with the delay. What scum-hunting have we had from Nova_Terra so far? We haven't. A quickly abandoned case on Mementoss, a go at Kenpachi, a go at me, and calling blubb vaguely scummy. In 4 pages of filter. Wow. Lastly, there is the totally unsatisfactory answer to the contradiction that BH points out: On May 09 2012 07:10 Nova_Terra wrote: When this behavior is continued on and on, it obviously makes someone more scummy "When this behaviour is continued on and on". What has actually changed between the two dates? Kenpachi gets mod-killed and flips scum, and layabout defended him a couple of times in the interim. This is apparently enough to make Nova go from "I don't think he's scum for these reasons" to "actually for the same reasons I DO think he's scum". Pretty scummy. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Overall, Nova has done nothing to suggest to me that he isn't scum. He has a long filter with no scumhunting, but plenty of throwaway accusations. He contradicts himself. layabout has points against him and a decent chance of flipping scum, but I am more convinced with my read on Nova, because I see the possibility that layabout is just a frustrated townie who has been goaded into defending himself too much. | ||
PaqMan
United States1475 Posts
I'm aware that it's not much of a justifiable reason but I feel that NT is just horrible/bad. Look at it from a scum point of view and tell me what is NT accomplishing? Nothing at all except setting his own ass on fire. Look at layabout with a scum point of view and his entire filter is incriminating. He's contradicting himself everywhere. He's pushing other peoples reads instead of making his own, even when asked. He doesn't make & push his own reads. He isn't actively hunting scum. He's so preoccupied with defending himself. He puts way more effort into writing quarter-page posts instead of hunting scum. He isn't contributing to town. If you look at the bigger picture, everything he's done has been pro-scum. Overall, Nova has done nothing to suggest to me that he isn't scum. He has a long filter with no scumhunting, but plenty of throwaway accusations. He contradicts himself. Your accusations can also very easily be applied to layabout. So tell me, if NT has done nothing to show you that he isn't scum, what has layabout done? | ||
PaqMan
United States1475 Posts
1- pushed a mislynch on BM. 2- pushed a mislynch on blubb. 3- no contribution to town 4-no individual/personal reads, allowing him to sit back and chill 5- pushes forth other people's reads 6- doesn't have to actively hunt for his own teammates because he's too busy writing intricate defenses. compare that to the actions NT has made. | ||
marvellosity
United Kingdom36156 Posts
On May 09 2012 09:55 PaqMan wrote: Look at layabout with a scum point of view and his entire filter is incriminating. He's contradicting himself everywhere. He's pushing other peoples reads instead of making his own, even when asked. He doesn't make & push his own reads. He isn't actively hunting scum. He's so preoccupied with defending himself. He puts way more effort into writing quarter-page posts instead of hunting scum. He isn't contributing to town. If you look at the bigger picture, everything he's done has been pro-scum. Nova contradicts himself, when he pushes blubb he doesn't even push him, he didn't push his read on mem, he isn't actively hunting scum. He doesn't even put effort into writing any sort of meaningful post instead of hunting scum. He isn't contributing to town. I told you why Nova is my strongest read over layabout: On May 09 2012 08:55 marvellosity wrote: I see the possibility that layabout is just a frustrated townie who has been goaded into defending himself too much. | ||
PaqMan
United States1475 Posts
On May 09 2012 08:55 marvellosity wrote: I see the possibility that layabout is just a frustrated townie who has been goaded into defending himself too much. Frustrated how? because people kept bringing up the same argument against him? | ||
PaqMan
United States1475 Posts
| ||
marvellosity
United Kingdom36156 Posts
At the risk of repeating myself, Nova is my strongest read, layabout also has a good chance of flipping scum - but much like your Ottoxlol argument on Nova, my gut tells me layabout has a higher chance of being townie than nova. | ||
PaqMan
United States1475 Posts
On May 09 2012 10:11 marvellosity wrote: Yes, for example the much rehashed katina argument, and frustrated at the state of the game. At the risk of repeating myself, Nova is my strongest read, layabout also has a good chance of flipping scum - but much like your Ottoxlol argument on Nova, my gut tells me layabout has a higher chance of being townie than nova. Okay, that is understandable. Eiii, l10f, grush, papapanda, Froggynoddy, you guys need to start posting. | ||
Mementoss
Canada2595 Posts
On the idea of people defending Kenpachi and Kenpachi flipping scum, I'm not sure how much this means, his playstyle is really erratic, so as town it's really hard to tell his alignment. (Hell, I even soft defended him to get people to vote onto people I thought had better chances of flipping scum) However, I would like to look at the people that pushed him aggressively and confidently. There is NO way to be confident about a Kenpachi lynch unless you are scum with him. He is the perfect bus as he is a likely vig shot, and doesn't actively help the scum team in ways other than lurking. This being said, this makes me think scum Nova is even more scummy, trying to get town cred by doing nothing. Marv points this out well in the above post. Actually I agree with just about everything Marv posted in that last post. Marv playing to his town meta, useless for a couple days and picking it up late game, I no longer find him that suspicious. ##Vote: Nova_Terra DoYouHas and SomethingAwesome the BLU Depressed Soldiers were found dead. Not so sure about this. Probably some blue sniping going on, or getting rid of the veterans. Gotta re-look into their filter. WIFOM, they could be keeping me alive (as well as BH, why would they keep him alive with chance of engineer and close to confirmed town?) as hard pushers on Nova, hoping for a Nova mislynch. This is pure WIFOM, but something to think about. More WIFOM, DYH had his doubts about Paqman and even had a case started against him before dropping it, but you could tell there was some doubts, BH also called paqman an "asset" to this town. DYH is dead, BH is alive after his claim. Coincidence? Maybe. Maybe not. Think about it. Look back into paqmans filter. Make an opinion on him. Also Im seeing A LOT of players names, that I can't remember anything they posted off the back of my head, or any recent stances they made. Grush ever since the modkills and made himself look town has not been around, papapanda what has he done recently? Sinesis as well. Pressure these players. We need more out of them. | ||
PaqMan
United States1475 Posts
| ||
Mementoss
Canada2595 Posts
| ||
PaqMan
United States1475 Posts
| ||
Mementoss
Canada2595 Posts
On May 09 2012 10:19 PaqMan wrote: Mementoss: What do you think of layabout and my case against him. You didn't make any mention of it. Reading and will respond soon. But everything you said about NT I disagree with pretty strongly so far. I don't think its anything like the ottoxlol case. Ottoxlol defense was I don't understand the case, and claiming scum multiple times in the thread. | ||
Mementoss
Canada2595 Posts
Also this quote in your case caught my eye mainly because of LIII trickery: On May 07 2012 21:48 layabout wrote: If blubbdavid Nova_Terra and Paqman are the remaining scum then kenpachi has got all of them. I remember mattchew mentioned his WHOLE scum team in a similar type post. There is a chance that certain people voting quickly on kenpachi could be scum, the remaining left are Nova, Paqman and Froggy. | ||
PaqMan
United States1475 Posts
On May 09 2012 10:31 Mementoss wrote: Paqman I think your case is very good against Layabout, but a lot of it has been mentioned before. Points 1 2 and 5 look unique and I really like the way they are presented. Point #4 I don't think is the best, I defended Kenpachi do you think I am scum? I am pretty confident that laya or nt are scum but not both. I'm having trouble deciding which is the better lynch. Also this quote in your case caught my eye mainly because of LIII trickery: I remember mattchew mentioned his WHOLE scum team in a similar type post. There is a chance that certain people voting quickly on kenpachi could be scum, the remaining left are Nova, Paqman and Froggy. I called him out on KP because of how hard laya was defending him. Just by this quote:+ Show Spoiler + On May 07 2012 21:51 layabout wrote: frogg we are not lynching kenpachi. don't be silly. The only legitimate stances that layabout has made are people who he doesn't want to lynch. blubb wasn't scum, I'm not scum, and Kenpachi was. KP didn't mention his whole team. | ||
PaqMan
United States1475 Posts
| ||
| ||