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On May 08 2012 05:21 windsupernova wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 05:10 QuanticCinergy wrote:On May 08 2012 04:48 windsupernova wrote:On May 08 2012 04:44 QuanticCinergy wrote:
Wow, I wrote a really awesome reply explaining my position on this in detail, and the browser didn't post properly, or I wasn't logged in or something, anyhow.... what I say here are my own views as a custodian of this community and it's future, not as a business leader and should not be viewed as an official position of Quantic Gaming - because we didn't make one, remember - that wasn't by accident. I have nothing to gain by sharing my personal perspective, but I hope that perhaps some of you might:
It's required that you speak directly with the player before making a statement of any kind. Unable to reach him until later than evening, and because TL did not close the forum post for the benefit of everyone involved, the sponsor calling and emails and brand bashing campaign were already well underway by then - the damage was done - making any sort of statement at that point would have only prolonged and increased the severity of the damage report. Bottom line - when people you work with at sponsors are being tapped in the shoulder by executive management they usually only know by name and title, about tickets/emails/calls from people talking about Hitler - people's jobs are on the line. Steven did all there was left to do by leaving the team willingly and respectfully. I respect and support his decision, and will miss working with him, because his antics aside, almost every pro player out there, aside from maybe White-Ra, could learn something from Steven about serving fans and building brands. Steven has done more direct community engagement for charitable causes than any other single player in the scene, and has always given of himself for fans, even for his critics. To assert that we shouldn't have provided him an opportunity to grow as a player and as a professional, when he expressed a clear desire to be taken more seriously in both, is a dramatic oversimplification of things that is mis-guided, cruel, and unfair. While I disagree with his using discriminatory language, Steven, in spite of his inner rage getting the best of him at times, may be full of a lot of things, but hate isn't one of them. Why not respond with a simple..."we know about this thread, we'll talk with the people involved"? That should at least buy you guys some time no? If people feel that their concerns are not being responded they will go to a higher instance.Hell Destiny had time to respond to the thread to say he doesn't give a ****. Why couldn't you guys take 5 minutes to at least appease the crowd? I don't think you are clearly understanding my point at all here, there was no time. I realize it may all seem super simple from your standpoint, but things in a situation like this must be handled very carefully. We couldn't reach our player, had no idea when or where this dialog would go or when it would stop. We can't just be pacifying people with bullshit to comfort them. We must first fully understand what has happened, what has transpired transpired since, and where things stand now, both externally as well as with the player them self. By the time we had all of the needed information to be able to do anything productive the damage was already done... That....doesn't even makes sense. Lets try "hey, we know we are looking into it" is now BS? Isn't that exactly what you were doing? Point is that Quantic could have appeased people (with BS or not BS). As I said if people feel ignored they will go to higher instances. Then after you guys had talked with all people involved release your statements. You are basically saying you had not enough time to make an effective response... but you never tried to get more time.Whats the logic behind that? Customers don't like being ignored and thats a fact that anyone who has worked in anything that deals with customers knows. Sorry I'm not buying that you coiuldn't do anything to prevent escalation. You guys chose to ignore it until it threatened your wallet. And how was Destiny unreachable? He sure had time to go into twitter post how much he didn't care, then come into the thread post about how much he didn't care, the go and flame moderators. Hell, I don't understand how a simple statement saying that you are aware of the complaints and are trying to reach the player would complicate stuff further.
One thing's for sure. Saying you don't have time to post BS is DEFINITELY BS.
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On May 08 2012 05:26 TheDougler wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 05:21 Fubi wrote:On May 08 2012 05:10 QuanticCinergy wrote:On May 08 2012 04:48 windsupernova wrote:On May 08 2012 04:44 QuanticCinergy wrote:
Wow, I wrote a really awesome reply explaining my position on this in detail, and the browser didn't post properly, or I wasn't logged in or something, anyhow.... what I say here are my own views as a custodian of this community and it's future, not as a business leader and should not be viewed as an official position of Quantic Gaming - because we didn't make one, remember - that wasn't by accident. I have nothing to gain by sharing my personal perspective, but I hope that perhaps some of you might:
It's required that you speak directly with the player before making a statement of any kind. Unable to reach him until later than evening, and because TL did not close the forum post for the benefit of everyone involved, the sponsor calling and emails and brand bashing campaign were already well underway by then - the damage was done - making any sort of statement at that point would have only prolonged and increased the severity of the damage report. Bottom line - when people you work with at sponsors are being tapped in the shoulder by executive management they usually only know by name and title, about tickets/emails/calls from people talking about Hitler - people's jobs are on the line. Steven did all there was left to do by leaving the team willingly and respectfully. I respect and support his decision, and will miss working with him, because his antics aside, almost every pro player out there, aside from maybe White-Ra, could learn something from Steven about serving fans and building brands. Steven has done more direct community engagement for charitable causes than any other single player in the scene, and has always given of himself for fans, even for his critics. To assert that we shouldn't have provided him an opportunity to grow as a player and as a professional, when he expressed a clear desire to be taken more seriously in both, is a dramatic oversimplification of things that is mis-guided, cruel, and unfair. While I disagree with his using discriminatory language, Steven, in spite of his inner rage getting the best of him at times, may be full of a lot of things, but hate isn't one of them. Why not respond with a simple..."we know about this thread, we'll talk with the people involved"? That should at least buy you guys some time no? If people feel that their concerns are not being responded they will go to a higher instance.Hell Destiny had time to respond to the thread to say he doesn't give a ****. Why couldn't you guys take 5 minutes to at least appease the crowd? I don't think you are clearly understanding my point at all here, there was no time. I realize it may all seem super simple from your standpoint, but things in a situation like this must be handled very carefully. We couldn't reach our player, had no idea when or where this dialog would go or when it would stop. We can't just be pacifying people with bullshit to comfort them. We must first fully understand what has happened, what has transpired transpired since, and where things stand now, both externally as well as with the player them self. By the time we had all of the needed information to be able to do anything productive the damage was already done... The thing is, why does it need to even get to the point where viewers have to contact the team OR sponsor? Shouldn't the management itself have already told their employees to act professionally in public when representing the teams and sponsors? Or at the very least, shouldn't the players themselves have some common sense to be somewhat professional in public, especially considering the basis of this whole industry relies heavily on sponsorship (and therefore public image)? QuanticCinergy has already stated a couple of times that they do tell their employees to act professionally and of course the players should have that common sense to act professional in public.
Thing is, Destiny clearly was NOT that type of guy to even begin with, and even after people complained, he publicly stated that he doesn't give a shit. So that brings us back to our point. The root of the problem isn't the pitch-forking, it's these players themselves.
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On May 08 2012 05:20 gogatorsfoster wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 05:16 Akash1223 wrote:On May 08 2012 05:07 gogatorsfoster wrote:On May 08 2012 05:00 Akash1223 wrote:On May 08 2012 04:52 gogatorsfoster wrote:I don't understand why nobody responded to my earlier post. It is very frustrating looking at this thread because you guys look like a bunch of trolls taking turns flaming each other. Basically I feel like people calling Destiny racist don't even understand the term. Someone is not racist because they use an offensive word with a racist connotation. Someone is racist if they believe that one race is superior to another. I would agree with calling sponsors immediately and taking down the big bad racist if that were actually the case. But nobody has said anything remotely racist. There has been no hate speech,Destiny never said he hates(insert ethnic group). Words are just words they mean nothing but the meaning you give them. If you want to see if someone is racist look at their ideas. Destiny is probably the most liberal hippy in the Starcraft scene, but people get too hung up on hot button words to really think about it. Ask yourself this. Do you think that offensive language should be allowed(including some that would be used as racial slurs, generic curse words + Show Spoiler +that are arbitrarily ok for Destiny to say , and so on. Because to some people "fuck" is just as offensive as "nigger" to another. Does that mean it is not ok to say any "bad words"? The n word is just a bad word with a racial connotation nothing else. It is just the same as any other swear word in the english language. If you are against community members using swear words that is your right, but dont draw an arbitrary line saying that these swear words are ok and others are not just because. You seem to think "offensive language" is an objective term; it's not. People have the right to feel offended by whatever language they decide if offensive. It's not some all or nothing situation like you claim it is. Some people are offended by racial slurs, others by curse words, others by gender based slurs, and others by some combination; it's all valid. You don't have to be offended by all or none, you have the right to draw an arbitrary line because "offensive language" is an arbitrary term. No no I made it very clear that words are more and less offensive to other people when I compared N***** and Fuck. Being offended means nothing anyway. My point was that If N****** is not ok then no other offensive words should because they really are all the same. Words are not racist people are. I could easily make a really racist sentence without a single offensive word. You seem to have misunderstood my post. You keep saying things like 'if X offensive word is not ok, then Y offensive word should also not be ok." What I'm trying to say if there is no list of offensive words, because each person decides what is or is not offensive on their own. One person may find nigger offensive, but not fuck; for another person it may be the opposite. This does not make both words offensive. Each one of the words is offensive to one of the two people; people are free to tolerate one word and not tolerate the other, even if other people do the opposite. I kind of feel like that was the point I was trying to make. Summarized Destiny is not racist Is it not ok for Destiny to be offensive?
I never said he, or anyone else was a racist. As for whether it's ok for him to be offensive, that depends on what you mean by offensive and what you mean by ok.
My point was that people have the right to be offended by whatever they decide is offensive. To use a non-language example; some people were offended by Naniwa's probe rush because they felt like they were robbed of the enjoyment of seeing a real game between Naniwa and Nestea. Many other people were not offended by this, found it funny//entertaining, or were indifferent. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.
A team/employer will fire someone for being offensive if they decide the offensive comments/personality of the employee will cause them to lose more customers//supporters than the employee is bringing in. It's about bringing in more customers; if you offend too many people (regardless of how you offend them) it is not beneficial for the team to employee you. What is "ok" is determined by the community. If the community decides what you said is fine, and they will continue to support your team, you won't be fired; if they decide they were offended and you being on the team will cause them to stop supporting the team, then you will be fired.
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So.... this is just another Destiny thread.
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actions will always have consequences. he did shitty things and now he deals with the consequences of said actions.
the real witch hunt is that every time someone has to take the consequences of being a douche some internet people act like its a conspiracy, from somewhere (this remains unclear), to take away some so called freedom of speech (if such a thing has ever existed). if you are concerned about internet rights, or rights in general, please direct your energy toward more meaningful endeavors.
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On May 08 2012 05:29 Akash1223 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 05:20 gogatorsfoster wrote:On May 08 2012 05:16 Akash1223 wrote:On May 08 2012 05:07 gogatorsfoster wrote:On May 08 2012 05:00 Akash1223 wrote:On May 08 2012 04:52 gogatorsfoster wrote:I don't understand why nobody responded to my earlier post. It is very frustrating looking at this thread because you guys look like a bunch of trolls taking turns flaming each other. Basically I feel like people calling Destiny racist don't even understand the term. Someone is not racist because they use an offensive word with a racist connotation. Someone is racist if they believe that one race is superior to another. I would agree with calling sponsors immediately and taking down the big bad racist if that were actually the case. But nobody has said anything remotely racist. There has been no hate speech,Destiny never said he hates(insert ethnic group). Words are just words they mean nothing but the meaning you give them. If you want to see if someone is racist look at their ideas. Destiny is probably the most liberal hippy in the Starcraft scene, but people get too hung up on hot button words to really think about it. Ask yourself this. Do you think that offensive language should be allowed(including some that would be used as racial slurs, generic curse words + Show Spoiler +that are arbitrarily ok for Destiny to say , and so on. Because to some people "fuck" is just as offensive as "nigger" to another. Does that mean it is not ok to say any "bad words"? The n word is just a bad word with a racial connotation nothing else. It is just the same as any other swear word in the english language. If you are against community members using swear words that is your right, but dont draw an arbitrary line saying that these swear words are ok and others are not just because. You seem to think "offensive language" is an objective term; it's not. People have the right to feel offended by whatever language they decide if offensive. It's not some all or nothing situation like you claim it is. Some people are offended by racial slurs, others by curse words, others by gender based slurs, and others by some combination; it's all valid. You don't have to be offended by all or none, you have the right to draw an arbitrary line because "offensive language" is an arbitrary term. No no I made it very clear that words are more and less offensive to other people when I compared N***** and Fuck. Being offended means nothing anyway. My point was that If N****** is not ok then no other offensive words should because they really are all the same. Words are not racist people are. I could easily make a really racist sentence without a single offensive word. You seem to have misunderstood my post. You keep saying things like 'if X offensive word is not ok, then Y offensive word should also not be ok." What I'm trying to say if there is no list of offensive words, because each person decides what is or is not offensive on their own. One person may find nigger offensive, but not fuck; for another person it may be the opposite. This does not make both words offensive. Each one of the words is offensive to one of the two people; people are free to tolerate one word and not tolerate the other, even if other people do the opposite. I kind of feel like that was the point I was trying to make. Summarized Destiny is not racist Is it not ok for Destiny to be offensive? I never said he, or anyone else was a racist. As for whether it's ok for him to be offensive, that depends on what you mean by offensive and what you mean by ok. My point was that people have the right to be offended by whatever they decide is offensive. To use a non-language example; some people were offended by Naniwa's probe rush because they felt like they were robbed of the enjoyment of seeing a real game between Naniwa and Nestea. Many other people were not offended by this, found it funny//entertaining, or were indifferent. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. A team/employer will fire someone for being offensive if they decide the offensive comments/personality of the employee will cause them to lose more customers//supporters than the employee is bringing in. It's about bringing in more customers; if you offend too many people (regardless of how you offend them) it is not beneficial for the team to employee you. What is "ok" is determined by the community. If the community decides what you said is fine, and they will continue to support your team, you won't be fired; if they decide they were offended and you being on the team will cause them to stop supporting the team, then you will be fired.
Ok so I wasnt specifically talking about you. I was just getting sick of people saying Destiny was being racist because he uses offensive words.
And by being ok I mean we dont try and get him fired.
Being offended means nothing though. I really didnt want to link this video but I feel it is far too relevant and this guy says it better than I could + Show Spoiler +
Basically being offended is subjective nobody can decide what is more or less offensive then the other so it doesn't make sense to me that people try to.
The community cant decide what is ok, it is too big for us to form one opinion there are going to be people with over the top opinions on both sides always and they are going mess things up such as e-mailing sponsors immediately.
Edit** Might as well give my final thought because if I stay in this thread any longer it wont be good for my health
+ Show Spoiler +Destiny is obviously not a racist. Which I was under the impression that he was being fired for acting racist.
Destiny is offensive, and I believe that everyone has the right to be offensive because what is offensive to some is not to another.
Fire racist people not offensive people
Words can not be racist , Ideas can
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On May 08 2012 05:38 Flonomenalz wrote:
So.... this is just another Destiny thread.
Basically, but without the "Destiny yayy"/"Destiny booo" one-liners which deflates the thread to 10% size.
But still, throughout this thread and all the Destiny-threads before, I'm wondering when people realize that this is not a witch hunt (even though it is mentioned from time to time).
A witch hunt would be mailing Razer because you think your cat died due to Destiny's uncanny powers, and you mention his racial slurs as proof for his witchcraft.
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On May 08 2012 05:47 gogatorsfoster wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 05:29 Akash1223 wrote:On May 08 2012 05:20 gogatorsfoster wrote:On May 08 2012 05:16 Akash1223 wrote:On May 08 2012 05:07 gogatorsfoster wrote:On May 08 2012 05:00 Akash1223 wrote:On May 08 2012 04:52 gogatorsfoster wrote:I don't understand why nobody responded to my earlier post. It is very frustrating looking at this thread because you guys look like a bunch of trolls taking turns flaming each other. Basically I feel like people calling Destiny racist don't even understand the term. Someone is not racist because they use an offensive word with a racist connotation. Someone is racist if they believe that one race is superior to another. I would agree with calling sponsors immediately and taking down the big bad racist if that were actually the case. But nobody has said anything remotely racist. There has been no hate speech,Destiny never said he hates(insert ethnic group). Words are just words they mean nothing but the meaning you give them. If you want to see if someone is racist look at their ideas. Destiny is probably the most liberal hippy in the Starcraft scene, but people get too hung up on hot button words to really think about it. Ask yourself this. Do you think that offensive language should be allowed(including some that would be used as racial slurs, generic curse words + Show Spoiler +that are arbitrarily ok for Destiny to say , and so on. Because to some people "fuck" is just as offensive as "nigger" to another. Does that mean it is not ok to say any "bad words"? The n word is just a bad word with a racial connotation nothing else. It is just the same as any other swear word in the english language. If you are against community members using swear words that is your right, but dont draw an arbitrary line saying that these swear words are ok and others are not just because. You seem to think "offensive language" is an objective term; it's not. People have the right to feel offended by whatever language they decide if offensive. It's not some all or nothing situation like you claim it is. Some people are offended by racial slurs, others by curse words, others by gender based slurs, and others by some combination; it's all valid. You don't have to be offended by all or none, you have the right to draw an arbitrary line because "offensive language" is an arbitrary term. No no I made it very clear that words are more and less offensive to other people when I compared N***** and Fuck. Being offended means nothing anyway. My point was that If N****** is not ok then no other offensive words should because they really are all the same. Words are not racist people are. I could easily make a really racist sentence without a single offensive word. You seem to have misunderstood my post. You keep saying things like 'if X offensive word is not ok, then Y offensive word should also not be ok." What I'm trying to say if there is no list of offensive words, because each person decides what is or is not offensive on their own. One person may find nigger offensive, but not fuck; for another person it may be the opposite. This does not make both words offensive. Each one of the words is offensive to one of the two people; people are free to tolerate one word and not tolerate the other, even if other people do the opposite. I kind of feel like that was the point I was trying to make. Summarized Destiny is not racist Is it not ok for Destiny to be offensive? I never said he, or anyone else was a racist. As for whether it's ok for him to be offensive, that depends on what you mean by offensive and what you mean by ok. My point was that people have the right to be offended by whatever they decide is offensive. To use a non-language example; some people were offended by Naniwa's probe rush because they felt like they were robbed of the enjoyment of seeing a real game between Naniwa and Nestea. Many other people were not offended by this, found it funny//entertaining, or were indifferent. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. A team/employer will fire someone for being offensive if they decide the offensive comments/personality of the employee will cause them to lose more customers//supporters than the employee is bringing in. It's about bringing in more customers; if you offend too many people (regardless of how you offend them) it is not beneficial for the team to employee you. What is "ok" is determined by the community. If the community decides what you said is fine, and they will continue to support your team, you won't be fired; if they decide they were offended and you being on the team will cause them to stop supporting the team, then you will be fired. Ok so I wasnt specifically talking about you. I was just getting sick of people saying Destiny was being racist because he uses offensive words. And by being ok I mean we dont try and get him fired. Being offended means nothing though. I really didnt want to link this video but I feel it is far too relevant and this guy says it better than I could + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tn2EhGK5ok Basically being offended is subjective nobody can decide what is more or less offensive then the other so it doesn't make sense to me that people try to. The community cant decide what is ok, it is too big for us to form one opinion there are going to be people with over the top opinions on both sides always and they are going mess things up such as e-mailing sponsors immediately.
No, but a decision is formed from the expressed community opinion of what is acceptable and not for being a professional gamer on a team. The team/sponsor will use that expressed opinion to determine whether to keep someone on their team.
This makes it all the more necessary to set some objective standards for conduct, as I've been pushing for.
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On May 08 2012 04:44 Fubi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 04:38 crocodile wrote:On May 08 2012 04:34 Doodsmack wrote:On May 08 2012 03:42 HorsemasterK wrote:On May 08 2012 03:41 windsupernova wrote:On May 08 2012 03:39 gogatorsfoster wrote:On May 08 2012 03:32 Terrafros wrote:
Naniwa's case went too far.
Orb's case went too far.
Destiny's case was proper.
In the first two, the team was not contacted. In the third, it was. If a team chooses not to listen to the fans, then they can go to the sponsors instead. This was not a case of immediate contact with the sponsors, Quantic chose to ignore the complaints about Destiny's behaviour, and thus, their sponsors got involved. A lot of people keep saying that quantic did nothing, the whole ordeal happened over the course of 3 days max. And you can bet people didnt wait to e-mail sponsors in the first place. I feel like if you really feel the need to pitchfork you should at least give the team a week or even 5 days. The team cant instantly fire someone they have to decide if it is justified or not. Team"We are looking into this claims" Doesn't seems it takes a week to do this. Especially when this is a pattern of behavior, and one that started BEFORE he even joined the team. They can't claim ignorance on this one. The funny thing is that this raises the question of why the people who emailed the sponsors waited for a public drama thread rather than emailin right after Quantic signed destiny. If their excuse for the question of why they didn't give Quantic even 5 days to respond is "well Quantic already knew his behavior so what's gonna change now", then surely they would have emailed Razer right when quantic signed destiny, right? After all it's not like Quantic or destiny were going to change their ways down the line. But of course it wasn't until drama erupted that they got "outraged", because they're not really standin up for racial equality, they just are getting something out of fueling the flames of some drama. Exactly. Anyone have an answer for this? You guys disgust me. I'm not even joking or exaggerating; I had faith that Starcraft 2 could grow beyond what it is now before this happened. Because of this incident, I'm sure it will remain in the background. Never to be on ESPN, never to cross into the mainstream in any way. It's a shame that you people can't see past your blind hatred and learn to see the big picture. Quite the opposite actually. It's people like YOU that disgust us. E-sport can NOT grow with professional players being racists left and right in public and with supporter like you telling others to "shut up and just don't watch if you don't like the racism". As been said, no other professional sports or entertainment industries have their players/employees sprouting racist comments in public, and neither should E-sport if it truly wants to be as big as the other industries.
I don't know of any bad things that happened from the orb or Destiny situation besides two guys losing their business engagements. Esports is a big place. It's like saying MLG isn't as big as television because Destiny or orb said nigger, whereas actually you can also turn on HBO if you want to hear all manner of interesting words. But nobody would say HBO is killing television. The only tangible damage that was done was people taking it upon themselves to be the guardians of a community that is millions of times greater than they are and losing some people their connections to sponsors.
If someone would like SC2 to be on cable, he can support something like MLG which is a very mainstream organization which could possibly go in that direction. Destiny's stream was never going to be on fucking ESPN to begin with, it's absurd to claim his innocuous ladder BM is stopping us having a bigger community. The thing that stops us having a bigger community is people who think it's their business how other people enjoy this game.
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On May 08 2012 05:47 gogatorsfoster wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 05:29 Akash1223 wrote:On May 08 2012 05:20 gogatorsfoster wrote:On May 08 2012 05:16 Akash1223 wrote:On May 08 2012 05:07 gogatorsfoster wrote:On May 08 2012 05:00 Akash1223 wrote:On May 08 2012 04:52 gogatorsfoster wrote:I don't understand why nobody responded to my earlier post. It is very frustrating looking at this thread because you guys look like a bunch of trolls taking turns flaming each other. Basically I feel like people calling Destiny racist don't even understand the term. Someone is not racist because they use an offensive word with a racist connotation. Someone is racist if they believe that one race is superior to another. I would agree with calling sponsors immediately and taking down the big bad racist if that were actually the case. But nobody has said anything remotely racist. There has been no hate speech,Destiny never said he hates(insert ethnic group). Words are just words they mean nothing but the meaning you give them. If you want to see if someone is racist look at their ideas. Destiny is probably the most liberal hippy in the Starcraft scene, but people get too hung up on hot button words to really think about it. Ask yourself this. Do you think that offensive language should be allowed(including some that would be used as racial slurs, generic curse words + Show Spoiler +that are arbitrarily ok for Destiny to say , and so on. Because to some people "fuck" is just as offensive as "nigger" to another. Does that mean it is not ok to say any "bad words"? The n word is just a bad word with a racial connotation nothing else. It is just the same as any other swear word in the english language. If you are against community members using swear words that is your right, but dont draw an arbitrary line saying that these swear words are ok and others are not just because. You seem to think "offensive language" is an objective term; it's not. People have the right to feel offended by whatever language they decide if offensive. It's not some all or nothing situation like you claim it is. Some people are offended by racial slurs, others by curse words, others by gender based slurs, and others by some combination; it's all valid. You don't have to be offended by all or none, you have the right to draw an arbitrary line because "offensive language" is an arbitrary term. No no I made it very clear that words are more and less offensive to other people when I compared N***** and Fuck. Being offended means nothing anyway. My point was that If N****** is not ok then no other offensive words should because they really are all the same. Words are not racist people are. I could easily make a really racist sentence without a single offensive word. You seem to have misunderstood my post. You keep saying things like 'if X offensive word is not ok, then Y offensive word should also not be ok." What I'm trying to say if there is no list of offensive words, because each person decides what is or is not offensive on their own. One person may find nigger offensive, but not fuck; for another person it may be the opposite. This does not make both words offensive. Each one of the words is offensive to one of the two people; people are free to tolerate one word and not tolerate the other, even if other people do the opposite. I kind of feel like that was the point I was trying to make. Summarized Destiny is not racist Is it not ok for Destiny to be offensive? I never said he, or anyone else was a racist. As for whether it's ok for him to be offensive, that depends on what you mean by offensive and what you mean by ok. My point was that people have the right to be offended by whatever they decide is offensive. To use a non-language example; some people were offended by Naniwa's probe rush because they felt like they were robbed of the enjoyment of seeing a real game between Naniwa and Nestea. Many other people were not offended by this, found it funny//entertaining, or were indifferent. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. A team/employer will fire someone for being offensive if they decide the offensive comments/personality of the employee will cause them to lose more customers//supporters than the employee is bringing in. It's about bringing in more customers; if you offend too many people (regardless of how you offend them) it is not beneficial for the team to employee you. What is "ok" is determined by the community. If the community decides what you said is fine, and they will continue to support your team, you won't be fired; if they decide they were offended and you being on the team will cause them to stop supporting the team, then you will be fired. Ok so I wasnt specifically talking about you. I was just getting sick of people saying Destiny was being racist because he uses offensive words. And by being ok I mean we dont try and get him fired. Being offended means nothing though. I really didnt want to link this video but I feel it is far too relevant and this guy says it better than I could + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tn2EhGK5ok Basically being offended is subjective nobody can decide what is more or less offensive then the other so it doesn't make sense to me that people try to. The community cant decide what is ok, it is too big for us to form one opinion there are going to be people with over the top opinions on both sides always and they are going mess things up such as e-mailing sponsors immediately. Edit** Might as well give my final thought because if I stay in this thread any longer it wont be good for my health + Show Spoiler +Destiny is obviously not a racist. Which I was under the impression that he was being fired for acting racist.
Destiny is offensive, and I believe that everyone has the right to be offensive because what is offensive to some is not to another.
Fire racist people not offensive people
Words can not be racist , Ideas can
Yes, being offended is subjective. When I said the community decides, I didn't mean the community as a whole, I meant each individual person. Each person has the right to decide what is tolerable for them personally. If enough people find certain language intolerable, then the person who used that language gets fired. I'm not really sure what's difficult to understand here. If you offend more people than you please, you get fired.
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On May 08 2012 06:02 Akash1223 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 05:47 gogatorsfoster wrote:On May 08 2012 05:29 Akash1223 wrote:On May 08 2012 05:20 gogatorsfoster wrote:On May 08 2012 05:16 Akash1223 wrote:On May 08 2012 05:07 gogatorsfoster wrote:On May 08 2012 05:00 Akash1223 wrote:On May 08 2012 04:52 gogatorsfoster wrote:I don't understand why nobody responded to my earlier post. It is very frustrating looking at this thread because you guys look like a bunch of trolls taking turns flaming each other. Basically I feel like people calling Destiny racist don't even understand the term. Someone is not racist because they use an offensive word with a racist connotation. Someone is racist if they believe that one race is superior to another. I would agree with calling sponsors immediately and taking down the big bad racist if that were actually the case. But nobody has said anything remotely racist. There has been no hate speech,Destiny never said he hates(insert ethnic group). Words are just words they mean nothing but the meaning you give them. If you want to see if someone is racist look at their ideas. Destiny is probably the most liberal hippy in the Starcraft scene, but people get too hung up on hot button words to really think about it. Ask yourself this. Do you think that offensive language should be allowed(including some that would be used as racial slurs, generic curse words + Show Spoiler +that are arbitrarily ok for Destiny to say , and so on. Because to some people "fuck" is just as offensive as "nigger" to another. Does that mean it is not ok to say any "bad words"? The n word is just a bad word with a racial connotation nothing else. It is just the same as any other swear word in the english language. If you are against community members using swear words that is your right, but dont draw an arbitrary line saying that these swear words are ok and others are not just because. You seem to think "offensive language" is an objective term; it's not. People have the right to feel offended by whatever language they decide if offensive. It's not some all or nothing situation like you claim it is. Some people are offended by racial slurs, others by curse words, others by gender based slurs, and others by some combination; it's all valid. You don't have to be offended by all or none, you have the right to draw an arbitrary line because "offensive language" is an arbitrary term. No no I made it very clear that words are more and less offensive to other people when I compared N***** and Fuck. Being offended means nothing anyway. My point was that If N****** is not ok then no other offensive words should because they really are all the same. Words are not racist people are. I could easily make a really racist sentence without a single offensive word. You seem to have misunderstood my post. You keep saying things like 'if X offensive word is not ok, then Y offensive word should also not be ok." What I'm trying to say if there is no list of offensive words, because each person decides what is or is not offensive on their own. One person may find nigger offensive, but not fuck; for another person it may be the opposite. This does not make both words offensive. Each one of the words is offensive to one of the two people; people are free to tolerate one word and not tolerate the other, even if other people do the opposite. I kind of feel like that was the point I was trying to make. Summarized Destiny is not racist Is it not ok for Destiny to be offensive? I never said he, or anyone else was a racist. As for whether it's ok for him to be offensive, that depends on what you mean by offensive and what you mean by ok. My point was that people have the right to be offended by whatever they decide is offensive. To use a non-language example; some people were offended by Naniwa's probe rush because they felt like they were robbed of the enjoyment of seeing a real game between Naniwa and Nestea. Many other people were not offended by this, found it funny//entertaining, or were indifferent. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. A team/employer will fire someone for being offensive if they decide the offensive comments/personality of the employee will cause them to lose more customers//supporters than the employee is bringing in. It's about bringing in more customers; if you offend too many people (regardless of how you offend them) it is not beneficial for the team to employee you. What is "ok" is determined by the community. If the community decides what you said is fine, and they will continue to support your team, you won't be fired; if they decide they were offended and you being on the team will cause them to stop supporting the team, then you will be fired. Ok so I wasnt specifically talking about you. I was just getting sick of people saying Destiny was being racist because he uses offensive words. And by being ok I mean we dont try and get him fired. Being offended means nothing though. I really didnt want to link this video but I feel it is far too relevant and this guy says it better than I could + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tn2EhGK5ok Basically being offended is subjective nobody can decide what is more or less offensive then the other so it doesn't make sense to me that people try to. The community cant decide what is ok, it is too big for us to form one opinion there are going to be people with over the top opinions on both sides always and they are going mess things up such as e-mailing sponsors immediately. Edit** Might as well give my final thought because if I stay in this thread any longer it wont be good for my health + Show Spoiler +Destiny is obviously not a racist. Which I was under the impression that he was being fired for acting racist.
Destiny is offensive, and I believe that everyone has the right to be offensive because what is offensive to some is not to another.
Fire racist people not offensive people
Words can not be racist , Ideas can Yes, being offended is subjective. When I said the community decides, I didn't mean the community as a whole, I meant each individual person. Each person has the right to decide what is tolerable for them personally. If enough people find certain language intolerable, then the person who used that language gets fired. I'm not really sure what's difficult to understand here. If you offend more people than you please, you get fired.
Ok I know I said that was going to be my last post, but I had to come back here and say this. It is impossible not to offend someone. Thats my point. People shouldnt be fired because people are offended, I like the code of conduct idea from a few posts ago. That way kids dont start feeling overly important and start e-mailing sponsors.
In a perfect world people would be more mature and would not be offended/get over it. Seriously watch the youtube video that I posted in my last post he really says it amazingly.
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On May 08 2012 05:54 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 04:44 Fubi wrote:On May 08 2012 04:38 crocodile wrote:On May 08 2012 04:34 Doodsmack wrote:On May 08 2012 03:42 HorsemasterK wrote:On May 08 2012 03:41 windsupernova wrote:On May 08 2012 03:39 gogatorsfoster wrote:On May 08 2012 03:32 Terrafros wrote:
Naniwa's case went too far.
Orb's case went too far.
Destiny's case was proper.
In the first two, the team was not contacted. In the third, it was. If a team chooses not to listen to the fans, then they can go to the sponsors instead. This was not a case of immediate contact with the sponsors, Quantic chose to ignore the complaints about Destiny's behaviour, and thus, their sponsors got involved. A lot of people keep saying that quantic did nothing, the whole ordeal happened over the course of 3 days max. And you can bet people didnt wait to e-mail sponsors in the first place. I feel like if you really feel the need to pitchfork you should at least give the team a week or even 5 days. The team cant instantly fire someone they have to decide if it is justified or not. Team"We are looking into this claims" Doesn't seems it takes a week to do this. Especially when this is a pattern of behavior, and one that started BEFORE he even joined the team. They can't claim ignorance on this one. The funny thing is that this raises the question of why the people who emailed the sponsors waited for a public drama thread rather than emailin right after Quantic signed destiny. If their excuse for the question of why they didn't give Quantic even 5 days to respond is "well Quantic already knew his behavior so what's gonna change now", then surely they would have emailed Razer right when quantic signed destiny, right? After all it's not like Quantic or destiny were going to change their ways down the line. But of course it wasn't until drama erupted that they got "outraged", because they're not really standin up for racial equality, they just are getting something out of fueling the flames of some drama. Exactly. Anyone have an answer for this? You guys disgust me. I'm not even joking or exaggerating; I had faith that Starcraft 2 could grow beyond what it is now before this happened. Because of this incident, I'm sure it will remain in the background. Never to be on ESPN, never to cross into the mainstream in any way. It's a shame that you people can't see past your blind hatred and learn to see the big picture. Quite the opposite actually. It's people like YOU that disgust us. E-sport can NOT grow with professional players being racists left and right in public and with supporter like you telling others to "shut up and just don't watch if you don't like the racism". As been said, no other professional sports or entertainment industries have their players/employees sprouting racist comments in public, and neither should E-sport if it truly wants to be as big as the other industries. I don't know of any bad things that happened from the orb or Destiny situation besides two guys losing their business engagements. Esports is a big place. It's like saying MLG isn't as big as television because Destiny or orb said nigger, whereas actually you can also turn on HBO if you want to hear all manner of interesting words. But nobody would say HBO is killing television. The only tangible damage that was done was people taking it upon themselves to be the guardians of a community that is millions of times greater than they are and losing some people their connections to sponsors. If someone would like SC2 to be on cable, he can support something like MLG which is a very mainstream organization which could possibly go in that direction. Destiny's stream was never going to be on fucking ESPN to begin with, it's absurd to claim his innocuous ladder BM is stopping us having a bigger community. The thing that stops us having a bigger community is people who think it's their business how other people enjoy this game.
Yeah, God forbid if I get enjoyment in this game by making racist insults at my opponents. And worst of all, he says something about it on TL/Reddit; and people sympathize with him! They take action, and hey, that's not fair. I'm a victim now, and not him! This isn't how it is supposed to work.
But seriously, sarcasm aside, I'll reiterate an amazing post I've seen in a thread regarding Destiny:
Free speech =/= Consequence free speech
Other people exercised their freedom of speech as per their wish (you know, contacting sponsors, making/posting threads on TL/Reddit). And yet, some would hypocritically lecture them on the consequences of doing so.
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The fact of the matter is, in any other public figure like Destiny, or Orb, had gone out and said what they said publically they would have been removed in the same way. Orb's case was bs, what he said he appologized for, and really some of the evidence was from two years ago that was brought against him. How many of you have had a clean plate for two years? I'm gonna guess none.
Destiny on the other hand actively BMs and is an embarassment to a community trying to develop eSports and make it a big thing in the West. With the way society works, people like Destiny who use racial slurs and BM don't have a place. They just don't. We as a community can't have one of our biggest names coming off as a total arrogant biggot. I believe whatever exchange Quanitc had with Destiny and vise versa resolved itself in the best possible solution. If Destiny is to be believed he is the one who left, and likewise if Destiny is to be believed he's no longer going to use racial slurs on his stream to avoid situations like this. I think because Destiny is a big figure in the community his word should be taken this time.
The Community should not be like MLB and when they think someone's up to no good, destroy them personally. We the community do need to make it clear that views and opinions of our "Superstars" when expressed in moments of anger and rage do not reflect our views and likewise we should try to remove it from our streams, and public games. However the community also needs to be tolerant and forgiving. Sometimes people mess up, Destiny did. Orb Did. NaNiwa didn't really (I thought the probe rush was halarious personally.). Our community is niche, we are a people who is made up of all the people from all the world all competeing in all levels of a game we love. As far as eSports go, Starcraft II has debatably (and I think easily) the best mannered, most intelligent, and smartest community and supporters. So why not act like it? If you think you're advancing eSports by being mannered whenever you're on ladder, you're probably right. Sure no one other than you may see your game, but what if in the off chance your opponent is a novice caster on Youtube or uploads the replay after you faceroll him for advice on how to avoid dying in that situation? At that point evidence of you BM is all over the web forever and that tarnishes our name.
Strive to be better, and we all benefit no matter what. Dicking around and making an ass of yourself likely wont get you anywhere (unless it's Monday.)
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That's exactly the point - these guys offended more people, than they pleased. And seriously - about subjective offending words - has anyone thought what kind of mess would it be, if any of mentioned persons tried writing something like 'jude raus' instead of n-words? Try being subjective about Holocaust nowadays. Besides, it's the teams' job to deal with such problems, not hiding behind some silly excuses.
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On May 08 2012 06:07 gogatorsfoster wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 06:02 Akash1223 wrote:On May 08 2012 05:47 gogatorsfoster wrote:On May 08 2012 05:29 Akash1223 wrote:On May 08 2012 05:20 gogatorsfoster wrote:On May 08 2012 05:16 Akash1223 wrote:On May 08 2012 05:07 gogatorsfoster wrote:On May 08 2012 05:00 Akash1223 wrote:On May 08 2012 04:52 gogatorsfoster wrote:I don't understand why nobody responded to my earlier post. It is very frustrating looking at this thread because you guys look like a bunch of trolls taking turns flaming each other. Basically I feel like people calling Destiny racist don't even understand the term. Someone is not racist because they use an offensive word with a racist connotation. Someone is racist if they believe that one race is superior to another. I would agree with calling sponsors immediately and taking down the big bad racist if that were actually the case. But nobody has said anything remotely racist. There has been no hate speech,Destiny never said he hates(insert ethnic group). Words are just words they mean nothing but the meaning you give them. If you want to see if someone is racist look at their ideas. Destiny is probably the most liberal hippy in the Starcraft scene, but people get too hung up on hot button words to really think about it. Ask yourself this. Do you think that offensive language should be allowed(including some that would be used as racial slurs, generic curse words + Show Spoiler +that are arbitrarily ok for Destiny to say , and so on. Because to some people "fuck" is just as offensive as "nigger" to another. Does that mean it is not ok to say any "bad words"? The n word is just a bad word with a racial connotation nothing else. It is just the same as any other swear word in the english language. If you are against community members using swear words that is your right, but dont draw an arbitrary line saying that these swear words are ok and others are not just because. You seem to think "offensive language" is an objective term; it's not. People have the right to feel offended by whatever language they decide if offensive. It's not some all or nothing situation like you claim it is. Some people are offended by racial slurs, others by curse words, others by gender based slurs, and others by some combination; it's all valid. You don't have to be offended by all or none, you have the right to draw an arbitrary line because "offensive language" is an arbitrary term. No no I made it very clear that words are more and less offensive to other people when I compared N***** and Fuck. Being offended means nothing anyway. My point was that If N****** is not ok then no other offensive words should because they really are all the same. Words are not racist people are. I could easily make a really racist sentence without a single offensive word. You seem to have misunderstood my post. You keep saying things like 'if X offensive word is not ok, then Y offensive word should also not be ok." What I'm trying to say if there is no list of offensive words, because each person decides what is or is not offensive on their own. One person may find nigger offensive, but not fuck; for another person it may be the opposite. This does not make both words offensive. Each one of the words is offensive to one of the two people; people are free to tolerate one word and not tolerate the other, even if other people do the opposite. I kind of feel like that was the point I was trying to make. Summarized Destiny is not racist Is it not ok for Destiny to be offensive? I never said he, or anyone else was a racist. As for whether it's ok for him to be offensive, that depends on what you mean by offensive and what you mean by ok. My point was that people have the right to be offended by whatever they decide is offensive. To use a non-language example; some people were offended by Naniwa's probe rush because they felt like they were robbed of the enjoyment of seeing a real game between Naniwa and Nestea. Many other people were not offended by this, found it funny//entertaining, or were indifferent. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. A team/employer will fire someone for being offensive if they decide the offensive comments/personality of the employee will cause them to lose more customers//supporters than the employee is bringing in. It's about bringing in more customers; if you offend too many people (regardless of how you offend them) it is not beneficial for the team to employee you. What is "ok" is determined by the community. If the community decides what you said is fine, and they will continue to support your team, you won't be fired; if they decide they were offended and you being on the team will cause them to stop supporting the team, then you will be fired. Ok so I wasnt specifically talking about you. I was just getting sick of people saying Destiny was being racist because he uses offensive words. And by being ok I mean we dont try and get him fired. Being offended means nothing though. I really didnt want to link this video but I feel it is far too relevant and this guy says it better than I could + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tn2EhGK5ok Basically being offended is subjective nobody can decide what is more or less offensive then the other so it doesn't make sense to me that people try to. The community cant decide what is ok, it is too big for us to form one opinion there are going to be people with over the top opinions on both sides always and they are going mess things up such as e-mailing sponsors immediately. Edit** Might as well give my final thought because if I stay in this thread any longer it wont be good for my health + Show Spoiler +Destiny is obviously not a racist. Which I was under the impression that he was being fired for acting racist.
Destiny is offensive, and I believe that everyone has the right to be offensive because what is offensive to some is not to another.
Fire racist people not offensive people
Words can not be racist , Ideas can Yes, being offended is subjective. When I said the community decides, I didn't mean the community as a whole, I meant each individual person. Each person has the right to decide what is tolerable for them personally. If enough people find certain language intolerable, then the person who used that language gets fired. I'm not really sure what's difficult to understand here. If you offend more people than you please, you get fired. Ok I know I said that was going to be my last post, but I had to come back here and say this. It is impossible not to offend someone. Thats my point. People shouldnt be fired because people are offended, I like the code of conduct idea from a few posts ago. That way kids dont start feeling overly important and start e-mailing sponsors. In a perfect world people would be more mature and would not be offended/get over it. Seriously watch the youtube video that I posted in my last post he really says it amazingly.
I watched the video; it's talking about laws against offensive language. Nobody here is saying Naniwa, Orb, or Destiny should be put in jail.
What you are failing to understand is SC2 is within the entertainment industry. People watch because they want to be entertained. If people get offended, they are much less likely to be entertained, and therefore much less likely to watch. That's why you don't offend people. People should be fired if they are causing less people to watch. That's why every other part of the entertainment industry has requirements for people not to use offensive language. Esports is new, and not on the level of the rest of the industry yet, but as it grows it will have to conform to said requirements. The more people you offend, the less viewers you will have, and the harder it will be for Esports to grow.
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Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me.
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"It's just so fucking sad that people do this sort of thing" what?? Is this a joke? Are people honestly bitching about progamers becoming afraid to offend people for any reason when the only affected (pro) gamers are the ones who used racial slurs carelessly for the sake of BM'ing? Jesus Christ, I can't believe there are actually people this immature who are blowing this out of proportion. IdrA has been BM'ing in his own way for years, but you know what's special about him? He's never used racist remarks in the way that Destiny and Orb have done. It's as simple as that. Why are there immature kids running around tearing their eyes out because they don't understand that a fear of offending people doesn't exist when you just don't use racial slurs? Is it really so hard to understand? Do you go around in public using racial slurs towards the relevant ethnicity? Of course not. You have to be lying to yourself if you think there's an immoral violation of freedom of speech when these sorts of drama fests spring up. Some kids seriously need to grow the hell up, good Lord. Why is it so hard for people to accept the fact that racism in any form is not generally accepted and ultimately doesn't lead to anything that the community as a whole will ever support? Why is that so hard to understand? Why? Think... hard. Take a deep breath and stop spazzing out because this isn't a difficult question. There are plenty of other ways to smack-talk and be a dick without using racial slurs. And people have shown that they don't appreciate of racial slurs so why is it so hard to understand that using racial slurs = bad and there are plenty of ways to BM/express yourself without unequivocally offending large amounts of people? These kids crying about the "injustices", please grow the hell up. And why would you even be supportive of BM in the first place? Last time I checked being a dick was something that was frowned upon by the community. Except for people being afraid of offending by using racial slurs. Hah, what a joke. Is this all kids these days have the mental capacity to complain about?
Edit: oh, the "Witch Hunt" title is hilarious. So cracking down on racism in any form has become a witch hunt because it's bad in that... racial slurs are good? And they make people feel happy because racism is funny? Since when? Jesus Christ the OP needs to put his thinking cap back on and calm down before he spreads this crap...
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On May 08 2012 06:09 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 05:54 oBlade wrote:On May 08 2012 04:44 Fubi wrote:On May 08 2012 04:38 crocodile wrote:On May 08 2012 04:34 Doodsmack wrote:On May 08 2012 03:42 HorsemasterK wrote:On May 08 2012 03:41 windsupernova wrote:On May 08 2012 03:39 gogatorsfoster wrote:On May 08 2012 03:32 Terrafros wrote:
Naniwa's case went too far.
Orb's case went too far.
Destiny's case was proper.
In the first two, the team was not contacted. In the third, it was. If a team chooses not to listen to the fans, then they can go to the sponsors instead. This was not a case of immediate contact with the sponsors, Quantic chose to ignore the complaints about Destiny's behaviour, and thus, their sponsors got involved. A lot of people keep saying that quantic did nothing, the whole ordeal happened over the course of 3 days max. And you can bet people didnt wait to e-mail sponsors in the first place. I feel like if you really feel the need to pitchfork you should at least give the team a week or even 5 days. The team cant instantly fire someone they have to decide if it is justified or not. Team"We are looking into this claims" Doesn't seems it takes a week to do this. Especially when this is a pattern of behavior, and one that started BEFORE he even joined the team. They can't claim ignorance on this one. The funny thing is that this raises the question of why the people who emailed the sponsors waited for a public drama thread rather than emailin right after Quantic signed destiny. If their excuse for the question of why they didn't give Quantic even 5 days to respond is "well Quantic already knew his behavior so what's gonna change now", then surely they would have emailed Razer right when quantic signed destiny, right? After all it's not like Quantic or destiny were going to change their ways down the line. But of course it wasn't until drama erupted that they got "outraged", because they're not really standin up for racial equality, they just are getting something out of fueling the flames of some drama. Exactly. Anyone have an answer for this? You guys disgust me. I'm not even joking or exaggerating; I had faith that Starcraft 2 could grow beyond what it is now before this happened. Because of this incident, I'm sure it will remain in the background. Never to be on ESPN, never to cross into the mainstream in any way. It's a shame that you people can't see past your blind hatred and learn to see the big picture. Quite the opposite actually. It's people like YOU that disgust us. E-sport can NOT grow with professional players being racists left and right in public and with supporter like you telling others to "shut up and just don't watch if you don't like the racism". As been said, no other professional sports or entertainment industries have their players/employees sprouting racist comments in public, and neither should E-sport if it truly wants to be as big as the other industries. I don't know of any bad things that happened from the orb or Destiny situation besides two guys losing their business engagements. Esports is a big place. It's like saying MLG isn't as big as television because Destiny or orb said nigger, whereas actually you can also turn on HBO if you want to hear all manner of interesting words. But nobody would say HBO is killing television. The only tangible damage that was done was people taking it upon themselves to be the guardians of a community that is millions of times greater than they are and losing some people their connections to sponsors. If someone would like SC2 to be on cable, he can support something like MLG which is a very mainstream organization which could possibly go in that direction. Destiny's stream was never going to be on fucking ESPN to begin with, it's absurd to claim his innocuous ladder BM is stopping us having a bigger community. The thing that stops us having a bigger community is people who think it's their business how other people enjoy this game. Yeah, God forbid if I get enjoyment in this game by making racist insults at my opponents. And worst of all, he says something about it on TL/Reddit; and people sympathize with him! They take action, and hey, that's not fair. I'm a victim now, and not him! This isn't how it is supposed to work. Other people exercised their freedom of speech as per their wish (you know, contacting sponsors, making/posting threads on TL/Reddit). And yet, some would hypocritically lecture them on the consequences of doing so.
You didn't really read. I said these players didn't cause any harm besides that of losing their own sponsors due to the self-righteous backlash from people.
The way consequences work in the real world isn't that when you cross the street without looking, your peers tattle to your mom and she spanks you. It's that you get killed by a bus. Or you cause a pileup when a bus swerves to avoid splattering you. What Destiny and orb did in this case was walk across the street without looking and find themselves safely on the other side. They said nigger and nothing happened. Nothing happened to anyone. Then the internet found out about it, emailed people with a red face rather than a cool head, and they had to leave their organizations.
Seriously this argument is basically "There are consequences because I think there should be," then you email sponsors, thereby getting people to resign, and say "I told you there were consequences."
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¨You are free to say whatever you want unless its against something I like¨-What some people ITT believe
I said Wow
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On May 08 2012 06:15 Akash1223 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 06:07 gogatorsfoster wrote:On May 08 2012 06:02 Akash1223 wrote:On May 08 2012 05:47 gogatorsfoster wrote:On May 08 2012 05:29 Akash1223 wrote:On May 08 2012 05:20 gogatorsfoster wrote:On May 08 2012 05:16 Akash1223 wrote:On May 08 2012 05:07 gogatorsfoster wrote:On May 08 2012 05:00 Akash1223 wrote:On May 08 2012 04:52 gogatorsfoster wrote:I don't understand why nobody responded to my earlier post. It is very frustrating looking at this thread because you guys look like a bunch of trolls taking turns flaming each other. Basically I feel like people calling Destiny racist don't even understand the term. Someone is not racist because they use an offensive word with a racist connotation. Someone is racist if they believe that one race is superior to another. I would agree with calling sponsors immediately and taking down the big bad racist if that were actually the case. But nobody has said anything remotely racist. There has been no hate speech,Destiny never said he hates(insert ethnic group). Words are just words they mean nothing but the meaning you give them. If you want to see if someone is racist look at their ideas. Destiny is probably the most liberal hippy in the Starcraft scene, but people get too hung up on hot button words to really think about it. Ask yourself this. Do you think that offensive language should be allowed(including some that would be used as racial slurs, generic curse words + Show Spoiler +that are arbitrarily ok for Destiny to say , and so on. Because to some people "fuck" is just as offensive as "nigger" to another. Does that mean it is not ok to say any "bad words"? The n word is just a bad word with a racial connotation nothing else. It is just the same as any other swear word in the english language. If you are against community members using swear words that is your right, but dont draw an arbitrary line saying that these swear words are ok and others are not just because. You seem to think "offensive language" is an objective term; it's not. People have the right to feel offended by whatever language they decide if offensive. It's not some all or nothing situation like you claim it is. Some people are offended by racial slurs, others by curse words, others by gender based slurs, and others by some combination; it's all valid. You don't have to be offended by all or none, you have the right to draw an arbitrary line because "offensive language" is an arbitrary term. No no I made it very clear that words are more and less offensive to other people when I compared N***** and Fuck. Being offended means nothing anyway. My point was that If N****** is not ok then no other offensive words should because they really are all the same. Words are not racist people are. I could easily make a really racist sentence without a single offensive word. You seem to have misunderstood my post. You keep saying things like 'if X offensive word is not ok, then Y offensive word should also not be ok." What I'm trying to say if there is no list of offensive words, because each person decides what is or is not offensive on their own. One person may find nigger offensive, but not fuck; for another person it may be the opposite. This does not make both words offensive. Each one of the words is offensive to one of the two people; people are free to tolerate one word and not tolerate the other, even if other people do the opposite. I kind of feel like that was the point I was trying to make. Summarized Destiny is not racist Is it not ok for Destiny to be offensive? I never said he, or anyone else was a racist. As for whether it's ok for him to be offensive, that depends on what you mean by offensive and what you mean by ok. My point was that people have the right to be offended by whatever they decide is offensive. To use a non-language example; some people were offended by Naniwa's probe rush because they felt like they were robbed of the enjoyment of seeing a real game between Naniwa and Nestea. Many other people were not offended by this, found it funny//entertaining, or were indifferent. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. A team/employer will fire someone for being offensive if they decide the offensive comments/personality of the employee will cause them to lose more customers//supporters than the employee is bringing in. It's about bringing in more customers; if you offend too many people (regardless of how you offend them) it is not beneficial for the team to employee you. What is "ok" is determined by the community. If the community decides what you said is fine, and they will continue to support your team, you won't be fired; if they decide they were offended and you being on the team will cause them to stop supporting the team, then you will be fired. Ok so I wasnt specifically talking about you. I was just getting sick of people saying Destiny was being racist because he uses offensive words. And by being ok I mean we dont try and get him fired. Being offended means nothing though. I really didnt want to link this video but I feel it is far too relevant and this guy says it better than I could + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tn2EhGK5ok Basically being offended is subjective nobody can decide what is more or less offensive then the other so it doesn't make sense to me that people try to. The community cant decide what is ok, it is too big for us to form one opinion there are going to be people with over the top opinions on both sides always and they are going mess things up such as e-mailing sponsors immediately. Edit** Might as well give my final thought because if I stay in this thread any longer it wont be good for my health + Show Spoiler +Destiny is obviously not a racist. Which I was under the impression that he was being fired for acting racist.
Destiny is offensive, and I believe that everyone has the right to be offensive because what is offensive to some is not to another.
Fire racist people not offensive people
Words can not be racist , Ideas can Yes, being offended is subjective. When I said the community decides, I didn't mean the community as a whole, I meant each individual person. Each person has the right to decide what is tolerable for them personally. If enough people find certain language intolerable, then the person who used that language gets fired. I'm not really sure what's difficult to understand here. If you offend more people than you please, you get fired. Ok I know I said that was going to be my last post, but I had to come back here and say this. It is impossible not to offend someone. Thats my point. People shouldnt be fired because people are offended, I like the code of conduct idea from a few posts ago. That way kids dont start feeling overly important and start e-mailing sponsors. In a perfect world people would be more mature and would not be offended/get over it. Seriously watch the youtube video that I posted in my last post he really says it amazingly. I watched the video; it's talking about laws against offensive language. Nobody here is saying Naniwa, Orb, or Destiny should be put in jail. What you are failing to understand is SC2 is within the entertainment industry. People watch because they want to be entertained. If people get offended, they are much less likely to be entertained, and therefore much less likely to watch. That's why you don't offend people. People should be fired if they are causing less people to watch. That's why every other part of the entertainment industry has requirements for people not to use offensive language. Esports is new, and not on the level of the rest of the industry yet, but as it grows it will have to conform to said requirements. The more people you offend, the less viewers you will have, and the harder it will be for Esports to grow.
Every time I think I`m out it just keeps sucking me back in.
Ok so replace going to Jail with getting someone fired. The basic idea of the video is the same. A lot of entertainment is offensive to a lot of people and it is widely popular and successful , being super pc is not necessary for being successful in entertainment. I mean just look at Destiny he grown to be so popular within our community being the most offensive person short of combatex.
I`m not even sure why gook is so offensive anyway, I was curious so I looked it up http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=gook
Needless to say I still don`t understand why it is a derogatory term.
edit**
Ok so apparently it was a word to describe low prostiutes in the early 1900`s also
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