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On May 08 2012 04:49 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 04:44 Fubi wrote:On May 08 2012 04:38 crocodile wrote:On May 08 2012 04:34 Doodsmack wrote:On May 08 2012 03:42 HorsemasterK wrote:On May 08 2012 03:41 windsupernova wrote:On May 08 2012 03:39 gogatorsfoster wrote:On May 08 2012 03:32 Terrafros wrote:
Naniwa's case went too far.
Orb's case went too far.
Destiny's case was proper.
In the first two, the team was not contacted. In the third, it was. If a team chooses not to listen to the fans, then they can go to the sponsors instead. This was not a case of immediate contact with the sponsors, Quantic chose to ignore the complaints about Destiny's behaviour, and thus, their sponsors got involved. A lot of people keep saying that quantic did nothing, the whole ordeal happened over the course of 3 days max. And you can bet people didnt wait to e-mail sponsors in the first place. I feel like if you really feel the need to pitchfork you should at least give the team a week or even 5 days. The team cant instantly fire someone they have to decide if it is justified or not. Team"We are looking into this claims" Doesn't seems it takes a week to do this. Especially when this is a pattern of behavior, and one that started BEFORE he even joined the team. They can't claim ignorance on this one. The funny thing is that this raises the question of why the people who emailed the sponsors waited for a public drama thread rather than emailin right after Quantic signed destiny. If their excuse for the question of why they didn't give Quantic even 5 days to respond is "well Quantic already knew his behavior so what's gonna change now", then surely they would have emailed Razer right when quantic signed destiny, right? After all it's not like Quantic or destiny were going to change their ways down the line. But of course it wasn't until drama erupted that they got "outraged", because they're not really standin up for racial equality, they just are getting something out of fueling the flames of some drama. Exactly. Anyone have an answer for this? You guys disgust me. I'm not even joking or exaggerating; I had faith that Starcraft 2 could grow beyond what it is now before this happened. Because of this incident, I'm sure it will remain in the background. Never to be on ESPN, never to cross into the mainstream in any way. It's a shame that you people can't see past your blind hatred and learn to see the big picture. Quite the opposite actually. It's people like YOU that disgust us. E-sport can NOT grow with professional players being racists left and right in public and with supporter like you telling others to "shut up and just don't watch if you don't like the racism". As been said, no other professional sports or entertainment industries have their players/employees sprouting racist comments in public, and neither should E-sport if it truly wants to be as big as the other industries. Did I miss something? I thought Destiny used one racial term on the ladder. Was there a part afterwards or something?
Once you start streaming you are kinda doing stuff in public.You could also consider ladder a public place.....
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On May 08 2012 04:28 BlueLanterna wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 04:21 crocodile wrote:On May 08 2012 04:07 Roe wrote:
1. This is an entertainment industry
2. I am not entertained by racism/homophobia
C: I don't want to watch/listen to people like the casters you mentioned So don't watch them. Which part of that means you have to hurt Quantic's relationship with their sponsors? Also: thank you Dosey, for being reasonable and making some sense. If you're frustrated by this thread like I am, it might make you feel better to know that there are people who agree with you 100%. There is no point in having freedoms if we can't tolerate them taken to their extreme. That's why you can't fight Westboro Baptist Church; they have the right to do what they do, even if the fucking KKK thinks they're assholes. Your point is absurd. We have the choice whether or not to tolerate that kind of ignorance in our community, because it's just that. TL is not some fucking libertarian paradise LOL. Also Dosey has posted more strawmen in this thread than anything so unfortunately if you would be so kind as to Google that term you would find that in fact he's not making sense. He's arguing against imaginary personality assassins and the like. As well as somehow including the point that the people arguing against racist/hateful language being broadcast are worse than the people actually using that language. Incredible cognitive dissonance there.
Incorrect. I have asked for a valid explanation as to why they cant go to a team instead of the sponsor. That is essentially what the conversation came down to. People (incorrectly) said "THEY WERE INFORMED!" Which was disproven by the likes of Team Managers, Team Members, and Team Owners on multiple streams and this thread. So I reiterated the question: Why can't the team be informed privately to handle the situation without a major backlash within the community. The reply I got was "THEY EMPLOYED A RACIST THEY DESERVE TO LOSE THEIR SPONSOR IF THAT'S WHAT IT CAME DOWN TO, MAYBE TEAMS WILL LEARN THEIR LESSON NOW"
Is that really a valid reason to do the end-around on a team? You take any chance of team punishment out of the equation because you deem that their punishment will not be severe enough for the offense? And put the entire team under fire in the process? Seems rather irrational if you ask me.
Then, the conversation went even further and the condemners expressed their repulsion and hate of the accused using such hate speech that no punishment would be severe enough. They must oust this cancer from the community themselves. Take it upon themselves to report them, make public what they did, and destroy their career. Only then will they be satisfied.
How are these the actions of a rational person? And how are these people given power over the livelihood of teams, players, and our community in general?
And I ask again:
WHY can we not simply report to the teams and let them handle it internally. You can still make the threat to report to the sponsor if it is not followed up on and they do not respond to you personally with the punishment. That should satisfy every need of yours to know what is going on internally. With this, everything will be handled without bringing the e-sports community under scrutiny from current and future sponsors.
Problem Solved, how is it so difficult?
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On May 08 2012 04:21 Dosey wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 04:08 tripp6sic6 wrote:On May 08 2012 04:05 Dosey wrote:On May 08 2012 04:01 Fubi wrote:On May 08 2012 03:59 Dosey wrote:On May 08 2012 03:44 Fubi wrote:On May 08 2012 03:29 Dosey wrote:On May 08 2012 03:26 Fubi wrote:On May 08 2012 03:21 Dosey wrote:On May 08 2012 03:03 Govou wrote:
[quote]
your whole argument is wrong because you believe people do this to feel they are important.
please try again Then at least try to answer the simple question I have asked multiple times with no valid answer. Why not report it to the team with your threats and demand a response? Why go directly to the sponsors? And for the one who said "How do you know that we didn't go to the team first?" Are you blind? The proof is everywhere. eG was BLINDSIDED by this and that is fact. The quantic manager himself has posted in this thread stating they should have came to him first and not gone to the sponsors. Another situation proving they went around the team directly toward the sponsor. Because sponsors are the ones that are directly paying them. Also, this helps to make sure teams be more careful in the future when picking players; shouldn't simply pick players just because they are popular, as some of the popularity could of came from being infamous. Either way, the people had every rights to do so. So it boils down to the fact that you didn't want such a person employed. You wanted his career ended because he is such a racist piece of shit? You wanted to teach their team a lesson by putting the entire team at risk for one persons mistake? "They lose their livelihood if they dont comply, THAT oughta teach them!!!" Makes sense :roll: Yes, it boils down to the fact that people didn't want such a racist person employed. They didn't want a "racist piece of shit" getting paid to be racist. And they wanted to teach teams a lesson so that in the future, they are clean of such racism within our e-sport community. Yes, you are correct. So what's the problem? Do you realize how ridiculous and utterly self-important this sounds? " I don't think you deserve a job because you are racist so I am going to do everything in my power to make sure you dont have a job" You are aware that your statements are more hate-filled than the offender, correct? He has a RIGHT to be racist if he wants to be racist (not that he is). Guess what? The KKK could set up shop right outside your front yard and there isn't a damn thing you could do about it so long as they have a legal permit. It is their right. Your reasoning has got to be the most intolerant bigoted thing I've ever read... and it disgusts me. Wait what? So you're saying it's ok if people get paid for being racist? I'm sorry dude, but I'm curious, did you time travel to the future from 1950? DEFENSE ATTORNEYS DEFEND MURDERERS, THEY MUST BE MURDERERS THEMSELVES AND SUPPORT MURDER OMG!!!!111! No, I'm not saying being racist is "okay" However, it is their right to be racist if they wish and to bring ill will upon someone who is racist is even more intolerant that said racist person and is even more of a hate crime. You people remind me of those religious fanatics that protest Army funerals. You make me sick. But they don't have a right to maintain employment. You have a right to exist as a racist. This is true. But you have no right to hold a job, while you cause problems for the company you represent by being a racist. If the company is willing to put up with it, you keep your job. They aren't, you are fired. That's the real world. You obviously weren't here for the evolution of the conversation. I asked them to provide a reason as to why they cant go to the team rather than directly to the sponsor. Quoted said "To teach them a lesson for employing a racist!" That, in itself, is hate. There is no logical reason provided as to why things can't be handled in a civil manner, they instantly go to the racism card and spew their hate for the offender directly at the sponsor. By the way, No, you can't fire someone for being a racist, just like you can't fire someone for being black, asian, woman, gay, straight, bi, handicapped, atheist, muslim, christian, rastafarian, blind, etc... That is called intolerance and frowned upon by our government. Yes, you can be fired for inappropriate language in a normal work environment, but that is another silly notion considering the number of F-bombs dropped by even the friendliest of our community pillars, Day[9]. So, the argument of "inappropriate language in a normal workplace gets you fired" is null and void. So lets just go on and scoop that out the window as well. All that is left here is hate. Hate for "Hate Speech" which is still HATE. The quoted wanted to punish the offenders for daring to spout "hate speech" and they made it their personal mission to hurt this person. Regardless of who else was hurt in the process. That didnt matter, because he HATED the way the offenders spoke. This type of intolerence is just as bad if not worse than what the offenders did. You don't live in the real world, clearly. Allow me to attempt to educate you.
In a majority of state, employment is at will. This means, they don't need to have a reason to fire you, they can just do it (unless having a contract that states otherwise, i.e. unions). Furthermore, there is no specific laws or legal precedent that I'm aware of that constitutes racist ideologies as a type of discrimination protected from wrongful termination. In short, I don't think you know what you're talking about.
The fact that people take steps to complain about someone using hate speech is not hate. That's an idiotic notion and should be self-evident.
My response to your opinion about going to the teams first is that the teams need to show that they are making an effort to keep player conduct in check for the majority to believe that to be the effective route to take. I agree that the teams should be the first stop for complaints, but I haven't had any solid evidence to suggest that the teams would do anything about it (outside of Quantic's CEO in this thread, which isn't really evidence, just words.) A step that might help is a public document agreed upon between teams that establishes what is acceptable and not and consequences (suspension/fines) for breaking the code of conduct.
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On May 08 2012 04:49 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 04:44 Fubi wrote:On May 08 2012 04:38 crocodile wrote:On May 08 2012 04:34 Doodsmack wrote:On May 08 2012 03:42 HorsemasterK wrote:On May 08 2012 03:41 windsupernova wrote:On May 08 2012 03:39 gogatorsfoster wrote:On May 08 2012 03:32 Terrafros wrote:
Naniwa's case went too far.
Orb's case went too far.
Destiny's case was proper.
In the first two, the team was not contacted. In the third, it was. If a team chooses not to listen to the fans, then they can go to the sponsors instead. This was not a case of immediate contact with the sponsors, Quantic chose to ignore the complaints about Destiny's behaviour, and thus, their sponsors got involved. A lot of people keep saying that quantic did nothing, the whole ordeal happened over the course of 3 days max. And you can bet people didnt wait to e-mail sponsors in the first place. I feel like if you really feel the need to pitchfork you should at least give the team a week or even 5 days. The team cant instantly fire someone they have to decide if it is justified or not. Team"We are looking into this claims" Doesn't seems it takes a week to do this. Especially when this is a pattern of behavior, and one that started BEFORE he even joined the team. They can't claim ignorance on this one. The funny thing is that this raises the question of why the people who emailed the sponsors waited for a public drama thread rather than emailin right after Quantic signed destiny. If their excuse for the question of why they didn't give Quantic even 5 days to respond is "well Quantic already knew his behavior so what's gonna change now", then surely they would have emailed Razer right when quantic signed destiny, right? After all it's not like Quantic or destiny were going to change their ways down the line. But of course it wasn't until drama erupted that they got "outraged", because they're not really standin up for racial equality, they just are getting something out of fueling the flames of some drama. Exactly. Anyone have an answer for this? You guys disgust me. I'm not even joking or exaggerating; I had faith that Starcraft 2 could grow beyond what it is now before this happened. Because of this incident, I'm sure it will remain in the background. Never to be on ESPN, never to cross into the mainstream in any way. It's a shame that you people can't see past your blind hatred and learn to see the big picture. Quite the opposite actually. It's people like YOU that disgust us. E-sport can NOT grow with professional players being racists left and right in public and with supporter like you telling others to "shut up and just don't watch if you don't like the racism". As been said, no other professional sports or entertainment industries have their players/employees sprouting racist comments in public, and neither should E-sport if it truly wants to be as big as the other industries. Did I miss something? I thought Destiny used one racial term on the ladder. Was there a part afterwards or something?
Yeah, he continued to justify his behaviour on TL and incorporated some memes that were pretty insulting.
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I don't understand why nobody responded to my earlier post. It is very frustrating looking at this thread because you guys look like a bunch of trolls taking turns flaming each other.
Basically I feel like people calling Destiny racist don't even understand the term. Someone is not racist because they use an offensive word with a racist connotation. Someone is racist if they believe that one race is superior to another.
I would agree with calling sponsors immediately and taking down the big bad racist if that were actually the case. But nobody has said anything remotely racist. There has been no hate speech,Destiny never said he hates(insert ethnic group).
Words are just words they mean nothing but the meaning you give them. If you want to see if someone is racist look at their ideas. Destiny is probably the most liberal hippy in the Starcraft scene, but people get too hung up on hot button words to really think about it.
Ask yourself this. Do you think that offensive language should be allowed(including some that would be used as racial slurs, generic curse words + Show Spoiler +that are arbitrarily ok for Destiny to say
Because to some people "fuck" is just as offensive as "nigger" to another. Does that mean it is not ok to say any "bad words"?
The n word is just a bad word with a racial connotation nothing else. It is just the same as any other swear word in the english language. If you are against community members using swear words that is your right, but dont draw an arbitrary line saying that these swear words are ok and others are not just because.
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On May 08 2012 04:45 TheDougler wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 04:39 Akash1223 wrote:
By the way, No, you can't fire someone for being a racist, just like you can't fire someone for being black, asian, woman, gay, straight, bi, handicapped, atheist, muslim, christian, rastafarian, blind, etc... That is called intolerance and frowned upon by our government.
Just last month Ozzie Guillen was suspended for essentially saying he thinks Fidel Castro was a great leader; if he hadn't immediately apologized, he would have been fired. Yeah that's... not really the way the rest of the world works. Somebody was suspended and almost fired because of an opinion of his? That's not right.
Whether it's right or wrong isn't relevant. The point is it 100% does happen in the United States.
Background info: Ozzie Guillen is the manager of the Miami marlins (professional baseball team). He made positive comments about Fidel Castro (former dictator of Cuba). Miami has a large Cuban population; most of the Cubans there fled Cuba in order to get away from Castro; they see him as Hitler-level evil. After hearing the comments, people threatened to picket around the stadium, etc; it would have led to a massive loss of revenue for the team. Thus, the team suspended him, made him apologize, etc; in order to appease the fans. The point is, the idea behind a business is to make money; if you make comments that cause your business to lose money, there will be consequences. That's why you avoid offending people, you need their business.
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And yes someone can be fired for being a racist if it interferes with the work being performed at the workplace. That is, if someone being racist prevents others from effectively working with him or her, it is cause for termination. And I'm pretty sure someone being racist would prevent others (particularly minorities) from working with that individual, so yes.
Being racist in oneself is probably not grounds for termination but displaying that racism (eg. using some of the language Destiny used) would be.
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On May 08 2012 04:49 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 04:44 Fubi wrote:On May 08 2012 04:38 crocodile wrote:On May 08 2012 04:34 Doodsmack wrote:On May 08 2012 03:42 HorsemasterK wrote:On May 08 2012 03:41 windsupernova wrote:On May 08 2012 03:39 gogatorsfoster wrote:On May 08 2012 03:32 Terrafros wrote:
Naniwa's case went too far.
Orb's case went too far.
Destiny's case was proper.
In the first two, the team was not contacted. In the third, it was. If a team chooses not to listen to the fans, then they can go to the sponsors instead. This was not a case of immediate contact with the sponsors, Quantic chose to ignore the complaints about Destiny's behaviour, and thus, their sponsors got involved. A lot of people keep saying that quantic did nothing, the whole ordeal happened over the course of 3 days max. And you can bet people didnt wait to e-mail sponsors in the first place. I feel like if you really feel the need to pitchfork you should at least give the team a week or even 5 days. The team cant instantly fire someone they have to decide if it is justified or not. Team"We are looking into this claims" Doesn't seems it takes a week to do this. Especially when this is a pattern of behavior, and one that started BEFORE he even joined the team. They can't claim ignorance on this one. The funny thing is that this raises the question of why the people who emailed the sponsors waited for a public drama thread rather than emailin right after Quantic signed destiny. If their excuse for the question of why they didn't give Quantic even 5 days to respond is "well Quantic already knew his behavior so what's gonna change now", then surely they would have emailed Razer right when quantic signed destiny, right? After all it's not like Quantic or destiny were going to change their ways down the line. But of course it wasn't until drama erupted that they got "outraged", because they're not really standin up for racial equality, they just are getting something out of fueling the flames of some drama. Exactly. Anyone have an answer for this? You guys disgust me. I'm not even joking or exaggerating; I had faith that Starcraft 2 could grow beyond what it is now before this happened. Because of this incident, I'm sure it will remain in the background. Never to be on ESPN, never to cross into the mainstream in any way. It's a shame that you people can't see past your blind hatred and learn to see the big picture. Quite the opposite actually. It's people like YOU that disgust us. E-sport can NOT grow with professional players being racists left and right in public and with supporter like you telling others to "shut up and just don't watch if you don't like the racism". As been said, no other professional sports or entertainment industries have their players/employees sprouting racist comments in public, and neither should E-sport if it truly wants to be as big as the other industries. Did I miss something? I thought Destiny used one racial term on the ladder. Was there a part afterwards or something? I personally can not answer that as I definitely don't follow Destiny much at all, and even for his fans, I doubt most of them can follow his streams 24/7 as he does stream a lot.
The discussion here though, is somewhat beyond simply just Destiny, it's more about the E-sport scene in general. The point we're trying to make is, the root of the problem isn't the pitch forking, it's the players that are using those language while representing the companies/sponsors itself. So the solution isn't simply to tell the people to stop pitch-forking, but to tell the players to stop being racist/sexist w/e in public streams.
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On May 08 2012 04:44 QuanticCinergy wrote:
Wow, I wrote a really awesome reply explaining my position on this in detail, and the browser didn't post properly, or I wasn't logged in or something, anyhow.... what I say here are my own views as a custodian of this community and it's future, not as a business leader and should not be viewed as an official position of Quantic Gaming - because we didn't make one, remember - that wasn't by accident. I have nothing to gain by sharing my personal perspective, but I hope that perhaps some of you might:
It's required that you speak directly with the player before making a statement of any kind. Unable to reach him until later than evening, and because TL did not close the forum post for the benefit of everyone involved, the sponsor calling and emails and brand bashing campaign were already well underway by then - the damage was done - making any sort of statement at that point would have only prolonged and increased the severity of the damage report. Bottom line - when people you work with at sponsors are being tapped in the shoulder by executive management they usually only know by name and title, about tickets/emails/calls from people talking about Hitler - people's jobs are on the line. Steven did all there was left to do by leaving the team willingly and respectfully. I respect and support his decision, and will miss working with him, because his antics aside, almost every pro player out there, aside from maybe White-Ra, could learn something from Steven about serving fans and building brands. Steven has done more direct community engagement for charitable causes than any other single player in the scene, and has always given of himself for fans, even for his critics. To assert that we shouldn't have provided him an opportunity to grow as a player and as a professional, when he expressed a clear desire to be taken more seriously in both, is a dramatic oversimplification of things that is mis-guided, cruel, and unfair. While I disagree with his using discriminatory language, Steven, in spite of his inner rage getting the best of him at times, may be full of a lot of things, but hate isn't one of them.
This is an incredibly well-worded and solid response. I guarantee you I will continue to support Quantic Gaming and Steven as much as I can in the future. I'm sorry the Starcraft 2 community has put you in this position, and I wish you nothing but success in your future endeavors.
Adding a tag to my signature on this forum supporting Quantic and Destiny.
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On May 08 2012 04:55 Fubi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 04:49 Dfgj wrote:On May 08 2012 04:44 Fubi wrote:On May 08 2012 04:38 crocodile wrote:On May 08 2012 04:34 Doodsmack wrote:On May 08 2012 03:42 HorsemasterK wrote:On May 08 2012 03:41 windsupernova wrote:On May 08 2012 03:39 gogatorsfoster wrote:On May 08 2012 03:32 Terrafros wrote:
Naniwa's case went too far.
Orb's case went too far.
Destiny's case was proper.
In the first two, the team was not contacted. In the third, it was. If a team chooses not to listen to the fans, then they can go to the sponsors instead. This was not a case of immediate contact with the sponsors, Quantic chose to ignore the complaints about Destiny's behaviour, and thus, their sponsors got involved. A lot of people keep saying that quantic did nothing, the whole ordeal happened over the course of 3 days max. And you can bet people didnt wait to e-mail sponsors in the first place. I feel like if you really feel the need to pitchfork you should at least give the team a week or even 5 days. The team cant instantly fire someone they have to decide if it is justified or not. Team"We are looking into this claims" Doesn't seems it takes a week to do this. Especially when this is a pattern of behavior, and one that started BEFORE he even joined the team. They can't claim ignorance on this one. The funny thing is that this raises the question of why the people who emailed the sponsors waited for a public drama thread rather than emailin right after Quantic signed destiny. If their excuse for the question of why they didn't give Quantic even 5 days to respond is "well Quantic already knew his behavior so what's gonna change now", then surely they would have emailed Razer right when quantic signed destiny, right? After all it's not like Quantic or destiny were going to change their ways down the line. But of course it wasn't until drama erupted that they got "outraged", because they're not really standin up for racial equality, they just are getting something out of fueling the flames of some drama. Exactly. Anyone have an answer for this? You guys disgust me. I'm not even joking or exaggerating; I had faith that Starcraft 2 could grow beyond what it is now before this happened. Because of this incident, I'm sure it will remain in the background. Never to be on ESPN, never to cross into the mainstream in any way. It's a shame that you people can't see past your blind hatred and learn to see the big picture. Quite the opposite actually. It's people like YOU that disgust us. E-sport can NOT grow with professional players being racists left and right in public and with supporter like you telling others to "shut up and just don't watch if you don't like the racism". As been said, no other professional sports or entertainment industries have their players/employees sprouting racist comments in public, and neither should E-sport if it truly wants to be as big as the other industries. Did I miss something? I thought Destiny used one racial term on the ladder. Was there a part afterwards or something? I personally can not answer that as I definitely don't follow Destiny much at all, and even for his fans, I doubt most of them can follow his streams 24/7 as he does stream a lot. The discussion here though, is somewhat beyond simply just Destiny, it's more about the E-sport scene in general. The point we're trying to make is, the root of the problem isn't the pitch forking, it's the players that are using those language while representing the companies/sponsors itself. So the solution isn't simply to tell the people to stop pitch-forking, but to tell the players to stop being racist/sexist w/e in public streams.
Exactly, thank you.
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On May 08 2012 04:21 crocodile wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 04:07 Roe wrote:
1. This is an entertainment industry
2. I am not entertained by racism/homophobia
C: I don't want to watch/listen to people like the casters you mentioned So don't watch them. Which part of that means you have to hurt Quantic's relationship with their sponsors? Also: thank you Dosey, for being reasonable and making some sense. If you're frustrated by this thread like I am, it might make you feel better to know that there are people who agree with you 100%. There is no point in having freedoms if we can't tolerate them taken to their extreme. That's why you can't fight Westboro Baptist Church; they have the right to do what they do, even if the fucking KKK thinks they're assholes.
Wow.
Not watching = hurt quantic and sponsors
I thought even you who are defending destiny would understand this.
I cant fight WBC? Oh yes I can. I can say what I want about them, and they should rightfully be expounded from society.
I can't believe how many times you contradict yourself in the same post. You really should think before posting.
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You say you defined witch hunt, but it seemed like an extremely vague definition. When peer pressure forces an overreaction to a set of injustices? "Overreaction" seems extremely subjective. There are likely many people who would disagree that the consequences in your examples were overreactions.
Witch hunt sounds like more of a sensationalized fake/meaningless term which you (ab)use in order to make those whom you are arguing against sound crazy. I don't think such sensationalism is productive for this conversation.
As for the core of the argument, I completely disagree. You can't expect a large community of people to be harmonious and somehow handle things as a community. That's just completely unrealistic. A community of large amounts of people is there to be a bunch of different people with a lot of different voices and opinions. They can act as watch dogs. They can be apathetic. They can try to defend people. They can do all kinds of things, but they can't act as one. There is no system that would allow for such cohesiveness. Telling a bunch of them "hey, don't do this because I think you shouldn't" does not reach people. Only a small portion will even ever see these words, and many who do won't even care, or will disagree. You don't solve things like this.
How you solve things is through organized groups, which we happen to already have. We have teams and organizations in e-sports who are able to act cohesively and actually change things. It is up to these organizations to control these matters. They are the ones who need to be handling these matters, or better yet, preventing these matters.
It is absurd to ask this of the community and expect some kind of productive change. I'd argue that if anything, it is even the community's duty to go out and cause this kind of pressure. This pressure is what forces organizations to improve and keeps them in check. It's the same as any other business-consumer relationship. Consumers trying to quietly fix or ignore the problems of the business only hurts things in the future.
As for the "don't message sponsor" whining. I think the reluctance of people to want sponsors messaged only shows the power of the method in terms of its strength in applying pressure to organizations. I think it is perfectly fine for these organizations to be afraid of their consumers. It is up to them to stop the cause of the consumer's complaints, not argue over what is merely a symptom. The damage of the symptom should only increase their urgency to address the cause.
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On May 08 2012 04:52 gogatorsfoster wrote:I don't understand why nobody responded to my earlier post. It is very frustrating looking at this thread because you guys look like a bunch of trolls taking turns flaming each other. Basically I feel like people calling Destiny racist don't even understand the term. Someone is not racist because they use an offensive word with a racist connotation. Someone is racist if they believe that one race is superior to another. I would agree with calling sponsors immediately and taking down the big bad racist if that were actually the case. But nobody has said anything remotely racist. There has been no hate speech,Destiny never said he hates(insert ethnic group). Words are just words they mean nothing but the meaning you give them. If you want to see if someone is racist look at their ideas. Destiny is probably the most liberal hippy in the Starcraft scene, but people get too hung up on hot button words to really think about it. Ask yourself this. Do you think that offensive language should be allowed(including some that would be used as racial slurs, generic curse words + Show Spoiler +that are arbitrarily ok for Destiny to say , and so on. Because to some people "fuck" is just as offensive as "nigger" to another. Does that mean it is not ok to say any "bad words"? The n word is just a bad word with a racial connotation nothing else. It is just the same as any other swear word in the english language. If you are against community members using swear words that is your right, but dont draw an arbitrary line saying that these swear words are ok and others are not just because.
You seem to think "offensive language" is an objective term; it's not. People have the right to feel offended by whatever language they decide if offensive. It's not some all or nothing situation like you claim it is. Some people are offended by racial slurs, others by curse words, others by gender based slurs, and others by some combination; it's all valid. You don't have to be offended by all or none, you have the right to draw an arbitrary line because "offensive language" is an arbitrary term.
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The more drama and controvercy, the better IMO. More "witch hunts" please. It can only be a good thing when it provides more entertainment. I hope it gets to the point where players cant say 1 word, ever, in public. When I see idra at the store, and he says the word "retard", I want the ability to report that to his management and say "it offends me" and have him get punished for it.
These "pro gamers" have such amazing lives and it should come with an extreme downside, equalibrium. Call them out on everything!
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On May 08 2012 04:52 Akash1223 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 04:45 TheDougler wrote:On May 08 2012 04:39 Akash1223 wrote:
By the way, No, you can't fire someone for being a racist, just like you can't fire someone for being black, asian, woman, gay, straight, bi, handicapped, atheist, muslim, christian, rastafarian, blind, etc... That is called intolerance and frowned upon by our government.
Just last month Ozzie Guillen was suspended for essentially saying he thinks Fidel Castro was a great leader; if he hadn't immediately apologized, he would have been fired. Yeah that's... not really the way the rest of the world works. Somebody was suspended and almost fired because of an opinion of his? That's not right. Whether it's right or wrong isn't relevant. The point is it 100% does happen in the United States. Background info: Ozzie Guillen is the manager of the Miami marlins (professional baseball team). He made positive comments about Fidel Castro (former dictator of Cuba). Miami has a large Cuban population; most of the Cubans there fled Cuba in order to get away from Castro; they see him as Hitler-level evil. After hearing the comments, people threatened to picket around the stadium, etc; it would have led to a massive loss of revenue for the team. Thus, the team suspended him, made him apologize, etc; in order to appease the fans. The point is, the idea behind a business is to make money; if you make comments that cause your business to lose money, there will be consequences. That's why you avoid offending people, you need their business.
Okay noted, it happens in the united states. I'm just saying that that could be one of the reasons people are having a hard time finding common ground here. This is an international issue and you can't purely look at it from an American perspective.
The Cubans in miami for example are just one viewpoint on Castro (although I'll grant you, I know some Cubans who have lived under Castro's regime and you're right that they weren't too pleased with him). With that said, you've managed to find an incredibly appropriate analogy for the situation. Most of the world agrees that Castro is a bad dude. A lot of the world also agrees that Communism was a bad idea. As far as I know though, the United States is the only nation who will fuck over the entire population of Cuba by refusing to trade with them. Yes I know, it goes both ways, most of it IS the communist regime's fault. No I'm not defending communism. But there are more victims than just the communist regime when you isolate Cuba the way you do just as there are more victims than just Destiny when you go directly to the sponsors.
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On May 08 2012 04:44 QuanticCinergy wrote:
Wow, I wrote a really awesome reply explaining my position on this in detail, and the browser didn't post properly, or I wasn't logged in or something, anyhow.... what I say here are my own views as a custodian of this community and it's future, not as a business leader and should not be viewed as an official position of Quantic Gaming - because we didn't make one, remember - that wasn't by accident. I have nothing to gain by sharing my personal perspective, but I hope that perhaps some of you might:
It's required that you speak directly with the player before making a statement of any kind. Unable to reach him until later than evening, and because TL did not close the forum post for the benefit of everyone involved, the sponsor calling and emails and brand bashing campaign were already well underway by then - the damage was done - making any sort of statement at that point would have only prolonged and increased the severity of the damage report. Bottom line - when people you work with at sponsors are being tapped in the shoulder by executive management they usually only know by name and title, about tickets/emails/calls from people talking about Hitler - people's jobs are on the line. Steven did all there was left to do by leaving the team willingly and respectfully. I respect and support his decision, and will miss working with him, because his antics aside, almost every pro player out there, aside from maybe White-Ra, could learn something from Steven about serving fans and building brands. Steven has done more direct community engagement for charitable causes than any other single player in the scene, and has always given of himself for fans, even for his critics. To assert that we shouldn't have provided him an opportunity to grow as a player and as a professional, when he expressed a clear desire to be taken more seriously in both, is a dramatic oversimplification of things that is mis-guided, cruel, and unfair. While I disagree with his using discriminatory language, Steven, in spite of his inner rage getting the best of him at times, may be full of a lot of things, but hate isn't one of them.
My personal feeling is that it was, for lack of a better word, a 'shitstorm' that had to play out, and releasing a statement would've prolonged it, and potentially made it worse.
That being said, I will still support Quantic, and especially with the recent announcement of the inclusion of Vile, I see a bright future for Quantic Gaming.
Also, I've been including your posts on the notable posts section, and I put the disclaimer that it is solely your opinion. If it's not okay, just reply or PM me and I can remove it. I feel the responses are definitely notable though, so I included them.
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On May 08 2012 05:00 Akash1223 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 04:52 gogatorsfoster wrote:I don't understand why nobody responded to my earlier post. It is very frustrating looking at this thread because you guys look like a bunch of trolls taking turns flaming each other. Basically I feel like people calling Destiny racist don't even understand the term. Someone is not racist because they use an offensive word with a racist connotation. Someone is racist if they believe that one race is superior to another. I would agree with calling sponsors immediately and taking down the big bad racist if that were actually the case. But nobody has said anything remotely racist. There has been no hate speech,Destiny never said he hates(insert ethnic group). Words are just words they mean nothing but the meaning you give them. If you want to see if someone is racist look at their ideas. Destiny is probably the most liberal hippy in the Starcraft scene, but people get too hung up on hot button words to really think about it. Ask yourself this. Do you think that offensive language should be allowed(including some that would be used as racial slurs, generic curse words + Show Spoiler +that are arbitrarily ok for Destiny to say , and so on. Because to some people "fuck" is just as offensive as "nigger" to another. Does that mean it is not ok to say any "bad words"? The n word is just a bad word with a racial connotation nothing else. It is just the same as any other swear word in the english language. If you are against community members using swear words that is your right, but dont draw an arbitrary line saying that these swear words are ok and others are not just because. You seem to think "offensive language" is an objective term; it's not. People have the right to feel offended by whatever language they decide if offensive. It's not some all or nothing situation like you claim it is. Some people are offended by racial slurs, others by curse words, others by gender based slurs, and others by some combination; it's all valid. You don't have to be offended by all or none, you have the right to draw an arbitrary line because "offensive language" is an arbitrary term.
No no I made it very clear that words are more and less offensive to other people when I compared N***** and Fuck. Being offended means nothing anyway. My point was that If N****** is not ok then no other offensive words should because they really are all the same. Words are not racist people are. I could easily make a really racist sentence without a single offensive word.
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On May 08 2012 05:07 gogatorsfoster wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 05:00 Akash1223 wrote:On May 08 2012 04:52 gogatorsfoster wrote:I don't understand why nobody responded to my earlier post. It is very frustrating looking at this thread because you guys look like a bunch of trolls taking turns flaming each other. Basically I feel like people calling Destiny racist don't even understand the term. Someone is not racist because they use an offensive word with a racist connotation. Someone is racist if they believe that one race is superior to another. I would agree with calling sponsors immediately and taking down the big bad racist if that were actually the case. But nobody has said anything remotely racist. There has been no hate speech,Destiny never said he hates(insert ethnic group). Words are just words they mean nothing but the meaning you give them. If you want to see if someone is racist look at their ideas. Destiny is probably the most liberal hippy in the Starcraft scene, but people get too hung up on hot button words to really think about it. Ask yourself this. Do you think that offensive language should be allowed(including some that would be used as racial slurs, generic curse words + Show Spoiler +that are arbitrarily ok for Destiny to say , and so on. Because to some people "fuck" is just as offensive as "nigger" to another. Does that mean it is not ok to say any "bad words"? The n word is just a bad word with a racial connotation nothing else. It is just the same as any other swear word in the english language. If you are against community members using swear words that is your right, but dont draw an arbitrary line saying that these swear words are ok and others are not just because. You seem to think "offensive language" is an objective term; it's not. People have the right to feel offended by whatever language they decide if offensive. It's not some all or nothing situation like you claim it is. Some people are offended by racial slurs, others by curse words, others by gender based slurs, and others by some combination; it's all valid. You don't have to be offended by all or none, you have the right to draw an arbitrary line because "offensive language" is an arbitrary term. No no I made it very clear that words are more and less offensive to other people when I compared N***** and Fuck. Being offended means nothing anyway. My point was that If N****** is not ok then no other offensive words should because they really are all the same. Words are not racist people are. I could easily make a really racist sentence without a single offensive word.
So many people in this thread just saying "I'm not offended by racist language, you shouldn't be."
What an enlightened attitude. We should just stop being hurt by the things that hurt us. Why didn't I think of that?
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On May 08 2012 05:04 TheDougler wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 04:52 Akash1223 wrote:On May 08 2012 04:45 TheDougler wrote:On May 08 2012 04:39 Akash1223 wrote:
By the way, No, you can't fire someone for being a racist, just like you can't fire someone for being black, asian, woman, gay, straight, bi, handicapped, atheist, muslim, christian, rastafarian, blind, etc... That is called intolerance and frowned upon by our government.
Just last month Ozzie Guillen was suspended for essentially saying he thinks Fidel Castro was a great leader; if he hadn't immediately apologized, he would have been fired. Yeah that's... not really the way the rest of the world works. Somebody was suspended and almost fired because of an opinion of his? That's not right. Whether it's right or wrong isn't relevant. The point is it 100% does happen in the United States. Background info: Ozzie Guillen is the manager of the Miami marlins (professional baseball team). He made positive comments about Fidel Castro (former dictator of Cuba). Miami has a large Cuban population; most of the Cubans there fled Cuba in order to get away from Castro; they see him as Hitler-level evil. After hearing the comments, people threatened to picket around the stadium, etc; it would have led to a massive loss of revenue for the team. Thus, the team suspended him, made him apologize, etc; in order to appease the fans. The point is, the idea behind a business is to make money; if you make comments that cause your business to lose money, there will be consequences. That's why you avoid offending people, you need their business. Okay noted, it happens in the united states. I'm just saying that that could be one of the reasons people are having a hard time finding common ground here. This is an international issue and you can't purely look at it from an American perspective. The Cubans in miami for example are just one viewpoint on Castro (although I'll grant you, I know some Cubans who have lived under Castro's regime and you're right that they weren't too pleased with him). With that said, you've managed to find an incredibly appropriate analogy for the situation. Most of the world agrees that Castro is a bad dude. A lot of the world also agrees that Communism was a bad idea. As far as I know though, the United States is the only nation who will fuck over the entire population of Cuba by refusing to trade with them. Yes I know, it goes both ways, most of it IS the communist regime's fault. No I'm not defending communism. But there are more victims than just the communist regime when you isolate Cuba the way you do just as there are more victims than just Destiny when you go directly to the sponsors.
I'm not arguing that it's an international issue. The poster I was replying to originally had stated that you are not allowed to be fired in the United States for making offensive comments, so I was simply showing that he was incorrect.
As far as looking at it as an international issue, I still think the same general principles apply. It's a business, if you offend enough people that you are negatively impacting your team's business, you will be fired. It's a cost-benefit analysis. When you cause your team to lose more customers than you are bringing in (through your skill as a player, personality, w/e), the benefit of having you as a member no longer warrants the cost.
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gogatorsfoster wrote:
The n word is just a bad word with a racial connotation nothing else. It is just the same as any other swear word in the english language. If you are against community members using swear words that is your right, but dont draw an arbitrary line saying that these swear words are ok and others are not just because.
No no I made it very clear that words are more and less offensive to other people when I compared N***** and Fuck. Being offended means nothing anyway. My point was that If N****** is not ok then no other offensive words should because they really are all the same. Words are not racist people are. I could easily make a really racist sentence without a single offensive word.
It is difficult to try to establish some sort of objective standard for what constitutes "acceptable" language versus "unacceptable" language. Fortunately, in this circumstance, an objective standard is unnecessary. The fact of the matter is that it is ultimately the entirely subjective ethical standards of the sponsors that matter here - ethical standards that, from the sponsor's perspective, are designed to protect and promote the public perception of their brand. The sponsors are the ones who are contributing the money; therefore, they are ultimately the ones who determine what is and what is not ethically acceptable.
The fact of the matter is that sponsors find the dreaded "n" word unacceptable, while willing to allow other potentially-offensive words to slide. The line that they draw may or may not be arbitrary, but at the end of the day, it is their line to draw.
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EPT
