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hit quote instead of edit on the initial response; may edit to use this space at some point.
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On May 08 2012 04:48 windsupernova wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 04:44 QuanticCinergy wrote:
Wow, I wrote a really awesome reply explaining my position on this in detail, and the browser didn't post properly, or I wasn't logged in or something, anyhow.... what I say here are my own views as a custodian of this community and it's future, not as a business leader and should not be viewed as an official position of Quantic Gaming - because we didn't make one, remember - that wasn't by accident. I have nothing to gain by sharing my personal perspective, but I hope that perhaps some of you might:
It's required that you speak directly with the player before making a statement of any kind. Unable to reach him until later than evening, and because TL did not close the forum post for the benefit of everyone involved, the sponsor calling and emails and brand bashing campaign were already well underway by then - the damage was done - making any sort of statement at that point would have only prolonged and increased the severity of the damage report. Bottom line - when people you work with at sponsors are being tapped in the shoulder by executive management they usually only know by name and title, about tickets/emails/calls from people talking about Hitler - people's jobs are on the line. Steven did all there was left to do by leaving the team willingly and respectfully. I respect and support his decision, and will miss working with him, because his antics aside, almost every pro player out there, aside from maybe White-Ra, could learn something from Steven about serving fans and building brands. Steven has done more direct community engagement for charitable causes than any other single player in the scene, and has always given of himself for fans, even for his critics. To assert that we shouldn't have provided him an opportunity to grow as a player and as a professional, when he expressed a clear desire to be taken more seriously in both, is a dramatic oversimplification of things that is mis-guided, cruel, and unfair. While I disagree with his using discriminatory language, Steven, in spite of his inner rage getting the best of him at times, may be full of a lot of things, but hate isn't one of them. Why not respond with a simple..."we know about this thread, we'll talk with the people involved"? That should at least buy you guys some time no? If people feel that their concerns are not being responded they will go to a higher instance.Hell Destiny had time to respond to the thread to say he doesn't give a ****. Why couldn't you guys take 5 minutes to at least appease the crowd?
I don't think you are clearly understanding my point at all here, there was no time. I realize it may all seem super simple from your standpoint, but things in a situation like this must be handled very carefully. We couldn't reach our player, had no idea when or where this dialog would go or when it would stop. We can't just be pacifying people with bullshit to comfort them. We must first fully understand what has happened, what has transpired transpired since, and where things stand now, both externally as well as with the player them self. By the time we had all of the needed information to be able to do anything productive the damage was already done...
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On May 08 2012 03:55 windsupernova wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 03:48 Eventine wrote:
......
And the community will need to hold their own to a greater standard. The issue with emailing sponsors is how the sponsors will look at the entire scene. I like activism, this community should hold its own to greater standards. But there needs to be recognition that actions have consequences. In recent months, we've seen two examples of these witch-hunts involving outside organizations. If companies become wary about being involved, that's the end of any hope of Sc2 going mainstream. We need to adopt the mentality of being the greatest ambassadors of eSports to the outside world while being critical while inside.
..... Good post BTW. The thing is how does e mailing sponsors about NOT wanting racist language in our content talks badly about the community? I think its much more grown up for the community to speak up and talk about stuff they don't like than "keeping things internal".
It's about how we talk to the sponsors. The emails I've seen offered tends to say something along the lines of "you should not sponsor this team or this player, they made this comment". While honestly, I don't mind the language... I think if you want to talk to sponsors, it should represent eSports in a positive light... e.g. Thank you for sponsoring our community. We appreciate your support and will work to ensure the professionalism of our players and members meet the criteria of company.
The problem with witch hunt isn't the hunt itself, it's how negative the community is portrayed.
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i think the witch hunts gain destiny more fans.
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On May 08 2012 05:10 QuanticCinergy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 04:48 windsupernova wrote:On May 08 2012 04:44 QuanticCinergy wrote:
Wow, I wrote a really awesome reply explaining my position on this in detail, and the browser didn't post properly, or I wasn't logged in or something, anyhow.... what I say here are my own views as a custodian of this community and it's future, not as a business leader and should not be viewed as an official position of Quantic Gaming - because we didn't make one, remember - that wasn't by accident. I have nothing to gain by sharing my personal perspective, but I hope that perhaps some of you might:
It's required that you speak directly with the player before making a statement of any kind. Unable to reach him until later than evening, and because TL did not close the forum post for the benefit of everyone involved, the sponsor calling and emails and brand bashing campaign were already well underway by then - the damage was done - making any sort of statement at that point would have only prolonged and increased the severity of the damage report. Bottom line - when people you work with at sponsors are being tapped in the shoulder by executive management they usually only know by name and title, about tickets/emails/calls from people talking about Hitler - people's jobs are on the line. Steven did all there was left to do by leaving the team willingly and respectfully. I respect and support his decision, and will miss working with him, because his antics aside, almost every pro player out there, aside from maybe White-Ra, could learn something from Steven about serving fans and building brands. Steven has done more direct community engagement for charitable causes than any other single player in the scene, and has always given of himself for fans, even for his critics. To assert that we shouldn't have provided him an opportunity to grow as a player and as a professional, when he expressed a clear desire to be taken more seriously in both, is a dramatic oversimplification of things that is mis-guided, cruel, and unfair. While I disagree with his using discriminatory language, Steven, in spite of his inner rage getting the best of him at times, may be full of a lot of things, but hate isn't one of them. Why not respond with a simple..."we know about this thread, we'll talk with the people involved"? That should at least buy you guys some time no? If people feel that their concerns are not being responded they will go to a higher instance.Hell Destiny had time to respond to the thread to say he doesn't give a ****. Why couldn't you guys take 5 minutes to at least appease the crowd? I don't think you are clearly understanding my point at all here, there was no time. I realize it may all seem super simple from your standpoint, but things in a situation like this must be handled very carefully. We couldn't reach our player, had no idea when or where this dialog would go or when it would stop. We can't just be pacifying people with bullshit to comfort them. We must first fully understand what has happened, what has transpired transpired since, and where things stand now, both externally as well as with the player them self. By the time we had all of the needed information to be able to do anything productive the damage was already done...
Coming from a more simplified viewpoint, what is the danger posting something like, this is something we're investigating? please be patient with us while we understand the situation?
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I personally blame reddit, they're too witchhunt happy, some guy said "I was watching SOTG and realized that none of these guys are passionate, they all hate the game!!!" and he was one of the top comments...they have such a sense of self righteousness.
Also OP, you left out the MLG PPV witchhunt.
EDIT: Unfortunately, this thread has degenerated into a Destiny thread, where people try to find justificative and fabricate phalacies to use racial slurs.
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The worst part about witch-hunts is how they force people's hand quickly rather than thoughtfully. I think most of the issues the mob-mentality have confronted could be resolved without all of the drama and excitement surrounding them. Unfortunately, once a witch-hunt gets rolling, it can't be stopped until "justice" has been exacted. So the only way to prevent the consequences of witch-hunting from happening is to prevent witch-hunting from happening altogether. Exercise that downvote button on r/starcraft! It's good when facts and incidents are brought up carefully, but the sensationalist drama has to go, and luckily we have the power to stop it with our own hand... if that is what we wish.
But ultimately, it comes down to what the community wants, and we can't tell the community how it should think. If people want to keep witch-hunting, the community will keep witch-hunting. The change has to come internally, it can't be forced.
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The fact is, if you go around being a dick it's gonna bite you in the ass.
That's all there is to it
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On May 08 2012 05:07 gogatorsfoster wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 05:00 Akash1223 wrote:On May 08 2012 04:52 gogatorsfoster wrote:I don't understand why nobody responded to my earlier post. It is very frustrating looking at this thread because you guys look like a bunch of trolls taking turns flaming each other. Basically I feel like people calling Destiny racist don't even understand the term. Someone is not racist because they use an offensive word with a racist connotation. Someone is racist if they believe that one race is superior to another. I would agree with calling sponsors immediately and taking down the big bad racist if that were actually the case. But nobody has said anything remotely racist. There has been no hate speech,Destiny never said he hates(insert ethnic group). Words are just words they mean nothing but the meaning you give them. If you want to see if someone is racist look at their ideas. Destiny is probably the most liberal hippy in the Starcraft scene, but people get too hung up on hot button words to really think about it. Ask yourself this. Do you think that offensive language should be allowed(including some that would be used as racial slurs, generic curse words + Show Spoiler +that are arbitrarily ok for Destiny to say , and so on. Because to some people "fuck" is just as offensive as "nigger" to another. Does that mean it is not ok to say any "bad words"? The n word is just a bad word with a racial connotation nothing else. It is just the same as any other swear word in the english language. If you are against community members using swear words that is your right, but dont draw an arbitrary line saying that these swear words are ok and others are not just because. You seem to think "offensive language" is an objective term; it's not. People have the right to feel offended by whatever language they decide if offensive. It's not some all or nothing situation like you claim it is. Some people are offended by racial slurs, others by curse words, others by gender based slurs, and others by some combination; it's all valid. You don't have to be offended by all or none, you have the right to draw an arbitrary line because "offensive language" is an arbitrary term. No no I made it very clear that words are more and less offensive to other people when I compared N***** and Fuck. Being offended means nothing anyway. My point was that If N****** is not ok then no other offensive words should because they really are all the same. Words are not racist people are. I could easily make a really racist sentence without a single offensive word.
You seem to have misunderstood my post. You keep saying things like 'if X offensive word is not ok, then Y offensive word should also not be ok." What I'm trying to say if there is no list of offensive words, because each person decides what is or is not offensive on their own. One person may find nigger offensive, but not fuck; for another person it may be the opposite. This does not make both words offensive. Each one of the words is offensive to one of the two people; people are free to tolerate one word and not tolerate the other, even if other people do the opposite.
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I agree 100%. An important point that going to the sponsors hurts more players, so you are punishing an entire team for the relatively small actions of one player
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I'm stoked that we get to beat this dead horse some more.
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On May 08 2012 05:09 HorsemasterK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 05:07 gogatorsfoster wrote:On May 08 2012 05:00 Akash1223 wrote:On May 08 2012 04:52 gogatorsfoster wrote:I don't understand why nobody responded to my earlier post. It is very frustrating looking at this thread because you guys look like a bunch of trolls taking turns flaming each other. Basically I feel like people calling Destiny racist don't even understand the term. Someone is not racist because they use an offensive word with a racist connotation. Someone is racist if they believe that one race is superior to another. I would agree with calling sponsors immediately and taking down the big bad racist if that were actually the case. But nobody has said anything remotely racist. There has been no hate speech,Destiny never said he hates(insert ethnic group). Words are just words they mean nothing but the meaning you give them. If you want to see if someone is racist look at their ideas. Destiny is probably the most liberal hippy in the Starcraft scene, but people get too hung up on hot button words to really think about it. Ask yourself this. Do you think that offensive language should be allowed(including some that would be used as racial slurs, generic curse words + Show Spoiler +that are arbitrarily ok for Destiny to say , and so on. Because to some people "fuck" is just as offensive as "nigger" to another. Does that mean it is not ok to say any "bad words"? The n word is just a bad word with a racial connotation nothing else. It is just the same as any other swear word in the english language. If you are against community members using swear words that is your right, but dont draw an arbitrary line saying that these swear words are ok and others are not just because. You seem to think "offensive language" is an objective term; it's not. People have the right to feel offended by whatever language they decide if offensive. It's not some all or nothing situation like you claim it is. Some people are offended by racial slurs, others by curse words, others by gender based slurs, and others by some combination; it's all valid. You don't have to be offended by all or none, you have the right to draw an arbitrary line because "offensive language" is an arbitrary term. No no I made it very clear that words are more and less offensive to other people when I compared N***** and Fuck. Being offended means nothing anyway. My point was that If N****** is not ok then no other offensive words should because they really are all the same. Words are not racist people are. I could easily make a really racist sentence without a single offensive word. So many people in this thread just saying "I'm not offended by racist language, you shouldn't be." What an enlightened attitude. We should just stop being hurt by the things that hurt us. Why didn't I think of that?
You should its stupid let alone to let someone who is racist get under your skin because they must be a really ignorant person, but to get offended over words where you so arbitrarily decide is not ok. Cracker is a racially offensive term but nobody would bat an eye if you said that. Why? Because people are arbitrarily deciding that other words are not. Honestly, if you dont care about fuck, rape, shit, (whatever other profanities you can think of.) then you shouldnt care about words that have racial connotations.
But I didnt say that you should not be offended in my first post. The reason Destiny was pitchforked was for racism. After I confirmed that we have no reason to believe Destiny to be a racist, do you think it is ok to be offensive. Forget about the Racial aspect. Is it ok for Destiny to be offensive was my question.
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On May 08 2012 05:17 Callistodusk wrote:
I'm stoked that we get to beat this dead horse some more.
Good way to pass the time on a slow Monday.
Thanks for your delightful input.
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On May 08 2012 05:09 HorsemasterK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 05:07 gogatorsfoster wrote:On May 08 2012 05:00 Akash1223 wrote:On May 08 2012 04:52 gogatorsfoster wrote:I don't understand why nobody responded to my earlier post. It is very frustrating looking at this thread because you guys look like a bunch of trolls taking turns flaming each other. Basically I feel like people calling Destiny racist don't even understand the term. Someone is not racist because they use an offensive word with a racist connotation. Someone is racist if they believe that one race is superior to another. I would agree with calling sponsors immediately and taking down the big bad racist if that were actually the case. But nobody has said anything remotely racist. There has been no hate speech,Destiny never said he hates(insert ethnic group). Words are just words they mean nothing but the meaning you give them. If you want to see if someone is racist look at their ideas. Destiny is probably the most liberal hippy in the Starcraft scene, but people get too hung up on hot button words to really think about it. Ask yourself this. Do you think that offensive language should be allowed(including some that would be used as racial slurs, generic curse words + Show Spoiler +that are arbitrarily ok for Destiny to say , and so on. Because to some people "fuck" is just as offensive as "nigger" to another. Does that mean it is not ok to say any "bad words"? The n word is just a bad word with a racial connotation nothing else. It is just the same as any other swear word in the english language. If you are against community members using swear words that is your right, but dont draw an arbitrary line saying that these swear words are ok and others are not just because. You seem to think "offensive language" is an objective term; it's not. People have the right to feel offended by whatever language they decide if offensive. It's not some all or nothing situation like you claim it is. Some people are offended by racial slurs, others by curse words, others by gender based slurs, and others by some combination; it's all valid. You don't have to be offended by all or none, you have the right to draw an arbitrary line because "offensive language" is an arbitrary term. No no I made it very clear that words are more and less offensive to other people when I compared N***** and Fuck. Being offended means nothing anyway. My point was that If N****** is not ok then no other offensive words should because they really are all the same. Words are not racist people are. I could easily make a really racist sentence without a single offensive word. So many people in this thread just saying "I'm not offended by racist language, you shouldn't be." What an enlightened attitude. We should just stop being hurt by the things that hurt us. Why didn't I think of that?
This guy was on your side when this argument began. He's not saying that at all, he's saying that there's a difference between calling somebody an ugly cock sucker (not racist) and an ----self nuked... Basically evil "racial stereotype", "race" without any "offensive" words----. One may be more offensive than the other while the other one is more racist.
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On May 08 2012 05:16 Akash1223 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 05:07 gogatorsfoster wrote:On May 08 2012 05:00 Akash1223 wrote:On May 08 2012 04:52 gogatorsfoster wrote:I don't understand why nobody responded to my earlier post. It is very frustrating looking at this thread because you guys look like a bunch of trolls taking turns flaming each other. Basically I feel like people calling Destiny racist don't even understand the term. Someone is not racist because they use an offensive word with a racist connotation. Someone is racist if they believe that one race is superior to another. I would agree with calling sponsors immediately and taking down the big bad racist if that were actually the case. But nobody has said anything remotely racist. There has been no hate speech,Destiny never said he hates(insert ethnic group). Words are just words they mean nothing but the meaning you give them. If you want to see if someone is racist look at their ideas. Destiny is probably the most liberal hippy in the Starcraft scene, but people get too hung up on hot button words to really think about it. Ask yourself this. Do you think that offensive language should be allowed(including some that would be used as racial slurs, generic curse words + Show Spoiler +that are arbitrarily ok for Destiny to say , and so on. Because to some people "fuck" is just as offensive as "nigger" to another. Does that mean it is not ok to say any "bad words"? The n word is just a bad word with a racial connotation nothing else. It is just the same as any other swear word in the english language. If you are against community members using swear words that is your right, but dont draw an arbitrary line saying that these swear words are ok and others are not just because. You seem to think "offensive language" is an objective term; it's not. People have the right to feel offended by whatever language they decide if offensive. It's not some all or nothing situation like you claim it is. Some people are offended by racial slurs, others by curse words, others by gender based slurs, and others by some combination; it's all valid. You don't have to be offended by all or none, you have the right to draw an arbitrary line because "offensive language" is an arbitrary term. No no I made it very clear that words are more and less offensive to other people when I compared N***** and Fuck. Being offended means nothing anyway. My point was that If N****** is not ok then no other offensive words should because they really are all the same. Words are not racist people are. I could easily make a really racist sentence without a single offensive word. You seem to have misunderstood my post. You keep saying things like 'if X offensive word is not ok, then Y offensive word should also not be ok." What I'm trying to say if there is no list of offensive words, because each person decides what is or is not offensive on their own. One person may find nigger offensive, but not fuck; for another person it may be the opposite. This does not make both words offensive. Each one of the words is offensive to one of the two people; people are free to tolerate one word and not tolerate the other, even if other people do the opposite.
I kind of feel like that was the point I was trying to make.
Summarized Destiny is not racist
Is it not ok for Destiny to be offensive?
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On May 08 2012 05:10 QuanticCinergy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 04:48 windsupernova wrote:On May 08 2012 04:44 QuanticCinergy wrote:
Wow, I wrote a really awesome reply explaining my position on this in detail, and the browser didn't post properly, or I wasn't logged in or something, anyhow.... what I say here are my own views as a custodian of this community and it's future, not as a business leader and should not be viewed as an official position of Quantic Gaming - because we didn't make one, remember - that wasn't by accident. I have nothing to gain by sharing my personal perspective, but I hope that perhaps some of you might:
It's required that you speak directly with the player before making a statement of any kind. Unable to reach him until later than evening, and because TL did not close the forum post for the benefit of everyone involved, the sponsor calling and emails and brand bashing campaign were already well underway by then - the damage was done - making any sort of statement at that point would have only prolonged and increased the severity of the damage report. Bottom line - when people you work with at sponsors are being tapped in the shoulder by executive management they usually only know by name and title, about tickets/emails/calls from people talking about Hitler - people's jobs are on the line. Steven did all there was left to do by leaving the team willingly and respectfully. I respect and support his decision, and will miss working with him, because his antics aside, almost every pro player out there, aside from maybe White-Ra, could learn something from Steven about serving fans and building brands. Steven has done more direct community engagement for charitable causes than any other single player in the scene, and has always given of himself for fans, even for his critics. To assert that we shouldn't have provided him an opportunity to grow as a player and as a professional, when he expressed a clear desire to be taken more seriously in both, is a dramatic oversimplification of things that is mis-guided, cruel, and unfair. While I disagree with his using discriminatory language, Steven, in spite of his inner rage getting the best of him at times, may be full of a lot of things, but hate isn't one of them. Why not respond with a simple..."we know about this thread, we'll talk with the people involved"? That should at least buy you guys some time no? If people feel that their concerns are not being responded they will go to a higher instance.Hell Destiny had time to respond to the thread to say he doesn't give a ****. Why couldn't you guys take 5 minutes to at least appease the crowd? I don't think you are clearly understanding my point at all here, there was no time. I realize it may all seem super simple from your standpoint, but things in a situation like this must be handled very carefully. We couldn't reach our player, had no idea when or where this dialog would go or when it would stop. We can't just be pacifying people with bullshit to comfort them. We must first fully understand what has happened, what has transpired transpired since, and where things stand now, both externally as well as with the player them self. By the time we had all of the needed information to be able to do anything productive the damage was already done...
That....doesn't even makes sense. Lets try "hey, we know we are looking into it" is now BS? Isn't that exactly what you were doing?
Point is that Quantic could have appeased people (with BS or not BS). As I said if people feel ignored they will go to higher instances. Then after you guys had talked with all people involved release your statements.
You are basically saying you had not enough time to make an effective response... but you never tried to get more time.Whats the logic behind that? Customers don't like being ignored and thats a fact that anyone who has worked in anything that deals with customers knows. Sorry I'm not buying that you coiuldn't do anything to prevent escalation. You guys chose to ignore it until it threatened your wallet.
And how was Destiny unreachable? He sure had time to go into twitter post how much he didn't care, then come into the thread post about how much he didn't care, the go and flame moderators.
Hell, I don't understand how a simple statement saying that you are aware of the complaints and are trying to reach the player would complicate stuff further.
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On May 08 2012 05:10 QuanticCinergy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 04:48 windsupernova wrote:On May 08 2012 04:44 QuanticCinergy wrote:
Wow, I wrote a really awesome reply explaining my position on this in detail, and the browser didn't post properly, or I wasn't logged in or something, anyhow.... what I say here are my own views as a custodian of this community and it's future, not as a business leader and should not be viewed as an official position of Quantic Gaming - because we didn't make one, remember - that wasn't by accident. I have nothing to gain by sharing my personal perspective, but I hope that perhaps some of you might:
It's required that you speak directly with the player before making a statement of any kind. Unable to reach him until later than evening, and because TL did not close the forum post for the benefit of everyone involved, the sponsor calling and emails and brand bashing campaign were already well underway by then - the damage was done - making any sort of statement at that point would have only prolonged and increased the severity of the damage report. Bottom line - when people you work with at sponsors are being tapped in the shoulder by executive management they usually only know by name and title, about tickets/emails/calls from people talking about Hitler - people's jobs are on the line. Steven did all there was left to do by leaving the team willingly and respectfully. I respect and support his decision, and will miss working with him, because his antics aside, almost every pro player out there, aside from maybe White-Ra, could learn something from Steven about serving fans and building brands. Steven has done more direct community engagement for charitable causes than any other single player in the scene, and has always given of himself for fans, even for his critics. To assert that we shouldn't have provided him an opportunity to grow as a player and as a professional, when he expressed a clear desire to be taken more seriously in both, is a dramatic oversimplification of things that is mis-guided, cruel, and unfair. While I disagree with his using discriminatory language, Steven, in spite of his inner rage getting the best of him at times, may be full of a lot of things, but hate isn't one of them. Why not respond with a simple..."we know about this thread, we'll talk with the people involved"? That should at least buy you guys some time no? If people feel that their concerns are not being responded they will go to a higher instance.Hell Destiny had time to respond to the thread to say he doesn't give a ****. Why couldn't you guys take 5 minutes to at least appease the crowd? I don't think you are clearly understanding my point at all here, there was no time. I realize it may all seem super simple from your standpoint, but things in a situation like this must be handled very carefully. We couldn't reach our player, had no idea when or where this dialog would go or when it would stop. We can't just be pacifying people with bullshit to comfort them. We must first fully understand what has happened, what has transpired transpired since, and where things stand now, both externally as well as with the player them self. By the time we had all of the needed information to be able to do anything productive the damage was already done...
The thing is, why does it need to even get to the point where viewers have to contact the team OR sponsor? Shouldn't the management itself have already told their employees to act professionally in public when representing the teams and sponsors? Or at the very least, shouldn't the players themselves have some common sense to be somewhat professional in public, especially considering the basis of this whole industry relies heavily on sponsorship (and therefore public image)?
edit* Point is, is it not better for companies to have preventative measures for these things BEFORE it happens, rather than have counter-measure for AFTER it happened? I understand where you're coming from, but personally I also thing it's just a lack of responsibility from the management to go "It's not that simple, we simply didn't have enough of time to sort it out".
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On May 08 2012 04:52 gogatorsfoster wrote:I don't understand why nobody responded to my earlier post. It is very frustrating looking at this thread because you guys look like a bunch of trolls taking turns flaming each other. Basically I feel like people calling Destiny racist don't even understand the term. Someone is not racist because they use an offensive word with a racist connotation. Someone is racist if they believe that one race is superior to another. I would agree with calling sponsors immediately and taking down the big bad racist if that were actually the case. But nobody has said anything remotely racist. There has been no hate speech,Destiny never said he hates(insert ethnic group). Words are just words they mean nothing but the meaning you give them. If you want to see if someone is racist look at their ideas. Destiny is probably the most liberal hippy in the Starcraft scene, but people get too hung up on hot button words to really think about it. Ask yourself this. Do you think that offensive language should be allowed(including some that would be used as racial slurs, generic curse words + Show Spoiler +that are arbitrarily ok for Destiny to say , and so on. Because to some people "fuck" is just as offensive as "nigger" to another. Does that mean it is not ok to say any "bad words"? The n word is just a bad word with a racial connotation nothing else. It is just the same as any other swear word in the english language. If you are against community members using swear words that is your right, but dont draw an arbitrary line saying that these swear words are ok and others are not just because.
I think you are misrepresenting the facts and that racist abuse did actually occur. The screenshots are evidence of this. No-one can prove whether Destiny is a racist or not. They don't have to. It is enough to judge whether racist abuse did occur. It evidently did, and the sponsors agreed. Destiny could probably have apologised and pledged not to repeat the behaviour, but he decided to take another option.
It is all very well you taking a philosophical stance about the n-word but that is not how the commercial world works in the 21st century. This is not Mississippi in the 1950's. I am not trying to be rude, but it is you who seem to be confused about racism if you claim nobody said anything racist. Destiny did - calling someone a Gook IS racist. It is dishonest to claim otherwise.
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On May 08 2012 05:10 QuanticCinergy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 04:48 windsupernova wrote:On May 08 2012 04:44 QuanticCinergy wrote:
Wow, I wrote a really awesome reply explaining my position on this in detail, and the browser didn't post properly, or I wasn't logged in or something, anyhow.... what I say here are my own views as a custodian of this community and it's future, not as a business leader and should not be viewed as an official position of Quantic Gaming - because we didn't make one, remember - that wasn't by accident. I have nothing to gain by sharing my personal perspective, but I hope that perhaps some of you might:
It's required that you speak directly with the player before making a statement of any kind. Unable to reach him until later than evening, and because TL did not close the forum post for the benefit of everyone involved, the sponsor calling and emails and brand bashing campaign were already well underway by then - the damage was done - making any sort of statement at that point would have only prolonged and increased the severity of the damage report. Bottom line - when people you work with at sponsors are being tapped in the shoulder by executive management they usually only know by name and title, about tickets/emails/calls from people talking about Hitler - people's jobs are on the line. Steven did all there was left to do by leaving the team willingly and respectfully. I respect and support his decision, and will miss working with him, because his antics aside, almost every pro player out there, aside from maybe White-Ra, could learn something from Steven about serving fans and building brands. Steven has done more direct community engagement for charitable causes than any other single player in the scene, and has always given of himself for fans, even for his critics. To assert that we shouldn't have provided him an opportunity to grow as a player and as a professional, when he expressed a clear desire to be taken more seriously in both, is a dramatic oversimplification of things that is mis-guided, cruel, and unfair. While I disagree with his using discriminatory language, Steven, in spite of his inner rage getting the best of him at times, may be full of a lot of things, but hate isn't one of them. Why not respond with a simple..."we know about this thread, we'll talk with the people involved"? That should at least buy you guys some time no? If people feel that their concerns are not being responded they will go to a higher instance.Hell Destiny had time to respond to the thread to say he doesn't give a ****. Why couldn't you guys take 5 minutes to at least appease the crowd? I don't think you are clearly understanding my point at all here, there was no time. I realize it may all seem super simple from your standpoint, but things in a situation like this must be handled very carefully. We couldn't reach our player, had no idea when or where this dialog would go or when it would stop. We can't just be pacifying people with bullshit to comfort them. We must first fully understand what has happened, what has transpired transpired since, and where things stand now, both externally as well as with the player them self. By the time we had all of the needed information to be able to do anything productive the damage was already done...
I appreciate the fact that Quantic seems to be motivated to correct player conduct issues rather than sweep them under the rug. I'm of the opinion that the lack of action in past issues from teams, in general, is a contributing factor to situations like Destiny's. What is your opinion? Do you think that having something like a code of conduct to point to in these types of situations would help to pacify angry sponsors and fans and satisfy them that the conduct will not be tolerated or would that be irrelevant in the grand scheme of things?
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On May 08 2012 05:21 Fubi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 05:10 QuanticCinergy wrote:On May 08 2012 04:48 windsupernova wrote:On May 08 2012 04:44 QuanticCinergy wrote:
Wow, I wrote a really awesome reply explaining my position on this in detail, and the browser didn't post properly, or I wasn't logged in or something, anyhow.... what I say here are my own views as a custodian of this community and it's future, not as a business leader and should not be viewed as an official position of Quantic Gaming - because we didn't make one, remember - that wasn't by accident. I have nothing to gain by sharing my personal perspective, but I hope that perhaps some of you might:
It's required that you speak directly with the player before making a statement of any kind. Unable to reach him until later than evening, and because TL did not close the forum post for the benefit of everyone involved, the sponsor calling and emails and brand bashing campaign were already well underway by then - the damage was done - making any sort of statement at that point would have only prolonged and increased the severity of the damage report. Bottom line - when people you work with at sponsors are being tapped in the shoulder by executive management they usually only know by name and title, about tickets/emails/calls from people talking about Hitler - people's jobs are on the line. Steven did all there was left to do by leaving the team willingly and respectfully. I respect and support his decision, and will miss working with him, because his antics aside, almost every pro player out there, aside from maybe White-Ra, could learn something from Steven about serving fans and building brands. Steven has done more direct community engagement for charitable causes than any other single player in the scene, and has always given of himself for fans, even for his critics. To assert that we shouldn't have provided him an opportunity to grow as a player and as a professional, when he expressed a clear desire to be taken more seriously in both, is a dramatic oversimplification of things that is mis-guided, cruel, and unfair. While I disagree with his using discriminatory language, Steven, in spite of his inner rage getting the best of him at times, may be full of a lot of things, but hate isn't one of them. Why not respond with a simple..."we know about this thread, we'll talk with the people involved"? That should at least buy you guys some time no? If people feel that their concerns are not being responded they will go to a higher instance.Hell Destiny had time to respond to the thread to say he doesn't give a ****. Why couldn't you guys take 5 minutes to at least appease the crowd? I don't think you are clearly understanding my point at all here, there was no time. I realize it may all seem super simple from your standpoint, but things in a situation like this must be handled very carefully. We couldn't reach our player, had no idea when or where this dialog would go or when it would stop. We can't just be pacifying people with bullshit to comfort them. We must first fully understand what has happened, what has transpired transpired since, and where things stand now, both externally as well as with the player them self. By the time we had all of the needed information to be able to do anything productive the damage was already done... The thing is, why does it need to even get to the point where viewers have to contact the team OR sponsor? Shouldn't the management itself have already told their employees to act professionally in public when representing the teams and sponsors? Or at the very least, shouldn't the players themselves have some common sense to be somewhat professional in public, especially considering the basis of this whole industry relies heavily on sponsorship (and therefore public image)?
QuanticCinergy has already stated a couple of times that they do tell their employees to act professionally and of course the players should have that common sense to act professional in public. We don't need Captain Hindsight here, the point is that when in doubt please contact the team, not the sponsor.
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