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[Rant]/[D] Witch Hunting and 'eSports' - Page 23

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Falcor
Profile Joined February 2010
Canada894 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-07 21:26:51
May 07 2012 21:26 GMT
#441
On May 08 2012 06:15 Akash1223 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 08 2012 06:07 gogatorsfoster wrote:
On May 08 2012 06:02 Akash1223 wrote:
On May 08 2012 05:47 gogatorsfoster wrote:
On May 08 2012 05:29 Akash1223 wrote:
On May 08 2012 05:20 gogatorsfoster wrote:
On May 08 2012 05:16 Akash1223 wrote:
On May 08 2012 05:07 gogatorsfoster wrote:
On May 08 2012 05:00 Akash1223 wrote:
On May 08 2012 04:52 gogatorsfoster wrote:
I don't understand why nobody responded to my earlier post. It is very frustrating looking at this thread because you guys look like a bunch of trolls taking turns flaming each other.

Basically I feel like people calling Destiny racist don't even understand the term. Someone is not racist because they use an offensive word with a racist connotation. Someone is racist if they believe that one race is superior to another.

I would agree with calling sponsors immediately and taking down the big bad racist if that were actually the case. But nobody has said anything remotely racist. There has been no hate speech,Destiny never said he hates(insert ethnic group).

Words are just words they mean nothing but the meaning you give them. If you want to see if someone is racist look at their ideas. Destiny is probably the most liberal hippy in the Starcraft scene, but people get too hung up on hot button words to really think about it.

Ask yourself this. Do you think that offensive language should be allowed(including some that would be used as racial slurs, generic curse words + Show Spoiler +
that are arbitrarily ok for Destiny to say
, and so on.

Because to some people "fuck" is just as offensive as "nigger" to another. Does that mean it is not ok to say any "bad words"?

The n word is just a bad word with a racial connotation nothing else. It is just the same as any other swear word in the english language. If you are against community members using swear words that is your right, but dont draw an arbitrary line saying that these swear words are ok and others are not just because.


You seem to think "offensive language" is an objective term; it's not. People have the right to feel offended by whatever language they decide if offensive. It's not some all or nothing situation like you claim it is. Some people are offended by racial slurs, others by curse words, others by gender based slurs, and others by some combination; it's all valid. You don't have to be offended by all or none, you have the right to draw an arbitrary line because "offensive language" is an arbitrary term.


No no I made it very clear that words are more and less offensive to other people when I compared N***** and Fuck. Being offended means nothing anyway. My point was that If N****** is not ok then no other offensive words should because they really are all the same. Words are not racist people are. I could easily make a really racist sentence without a single offensive word.

You seem to have misunderstood my post. You keep saying things like 'if X offensive word is not ok, then Y offensive word should also not be ok." What I'm trying to say if there is no list of offensive words, because each person decides what is or is not offensive on their own. One person may find nigger offensive, but not fuck; for another person it may be the opposite. This does not make both words offensive. Each one of the words is offensive to one of the two people; people are free to tolerate one word and not tolerate the other, even if other people do the opposite.


I kind of feel like that was the point I was trying to make.
Summarized Destiny is not racist
Is it not ok for Destiny to be offensive?

I never said he, or anyone else was a racist. As for whether it's ok for him to be offensive, that depends on what you mean by offensive and what you mean by ok.

My point was that people have the right to be offended by whatever they decide is offensive. To use a non-language example; some people were offended by Naniwa's probe rush because they felt like they were robbed of the enjoyment of seeing a real game between Naniwa and Nestea. Many other people were not offended by this, found it funny//entertaining, or were indifferent. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

A team/employer will fire someone for being offensive if they decide the offensive comments/personality of the employee will cause them to lose more customers//supporters than the employee is bringing in. It's about bringing in more customers; if you offend too many people (regardless of how you offend them) it is not beneficial for the team to employee you. What is "ok" is determined by the community. If the community decides what you said is fine, and they will continue to support your team, you won't be fired; if they decide they were offended and you being on the team will cause them to stop supporting the team, then you will be fired.



Ok so I wasnt specifically talking about you. I was just getting sick of people saying Destiny was being racist because he uses offensive words.

And by being ok I mean we dont try and get him fired.

Being offended means nothing though. I really didnt want to link this video but I feel it is far too relevant and this guy says it better than I could + Show Spoiler +


Basically being offended is subjective nobody can decide what is more or less offensive then the other so it doesn't make sense to me that people try to.

The community cant decide what is ok, it is too big for us to form one opinion there are going to be people with over the top opinions on both sides always and they are going mess things up such as e-mailing sponsors immediately.


Edit** Might as well give my final thought because if I stay in this thread any longer it wont be good for my health

+ Show Spoiler +
Destiny is obviously not a racist. Which I was under the impression that he was being fired for acting racist.
Destiny is offensive, and I believe that everyone has the right to be offensive because what is offensive to some is not to another.

Fire racist people not offensive people

Words can not be racist , Ideas can


Yes, being offended is subjective. When I said the community decides, I didn't mean the community as a whole, I meant each individual person. Each person has the right to decide what is tolerable for them personally. If enough people find certain language intolerable, then the person who used that language gets fired. I'm not really sure what's difficult to understand here. If you offend more people than you please, you get fired.


Ok I know I said that was going to be my last post, but I had to come back here and say this. It is impossible not to offend someone. Thats my point. People shouldnt be fired because people are offended, I like the code of conduct idea from a few posts ago. That way kids dont start feeling overly important and start e-mailing sponsors.

In a perfect world people would be more mature and would not be offended/get over it. Seriously watch the youtube video that I posted in my last post he really says it amazingly.


I watched the video; it's talking about laws against offensive language. Nobody here is saying Naniwa, Orb, or Destiny should be put in jail.

What you are failing to understand is SC2 is within the entertainment industry. People watch because they want to be entertained. If people get offended, they are much less likely to be entertained, and therefore much less likely to watch. That's why you don't offend people. People should be fired if they are causing less people to watch. That's why every other part of the entertainment industry has requirements for people not to use offensive language. Esports is new, and not on the level of the rest of the industry yet, but as it grows it will have to conform to said requirements. The more people you offend, the less viewers you will have, and the harder it will be for Esports to grow.


there are specific sections of the entertainment industry that allows offensive language to be used. Movies, books ,tv(depending on the channel), and all comedy. But all of those forms(except books) have a rating system...kinda likehow streams can put a rating on their stream.

If you want to talk about the sports industry then thats a different story
alpinefpOPP
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United States134 Posts
May 07 2012 21:26 GMT
#442
What's sad about all these situations is that most of the people leading the mobs with their pitchforks dont even care about what was said. I agree when someone says racism and biggotry shouldnt be tolerated anyhwere, thats true, but the matter of the fact is that a huge number of people are just out to get anyone who slips up just because they can. What's even worse is the fact that it will never stop, this will continue until the community dies.
Akash1223
Profile Joined March 2011
United States91 Posts
May 07 2012 21:27 GMT
#443
On May 08 2012 06:20 oBlade wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 08 2012 06:09 plogamer wrote:
On May 08 2012 05:54 oBlade wrote:
On May 08 2012 04:44 Fubi wrote:
On May 08 2012 04:38 crocodile wrote:
On May 08 2012 04:34 Doodsmack wrote:
On May 08 2012 03:42 HorsemasterK wrote:
On May 08 2012 03:41 windsupernova wrote:
On May 08 2012 03:39 gogatorsfoster wrote:
On May 08 2012 03:32 Terrafros wrote:
Naniwa's case went too far.

Orb's case went too far.

Destiny's case was proper.


In the first two, the team was not contacted. In the third, it was. If a team chooses not to listen to the fans, then they can go to the sponsors instead. This was not a case of immediate contact with the sponsors, Quantic chose to ignore the complaints about Destiny's behaviour, and thus, their sponsors got involved.


A lot of people keep saying that quantic did nothing, the whole ordeal happened over the course of 3 days max. And you can bet people didnt wait to e-mail sponsors in the first place. I feel like if you really feel the need to pitchfork you should at least give the team a week or even 5 days. The team cant instantly fire someone they have to decide if it is justified or not.


Team"We are looking into this claims"

Doesn't seems it takes a week to do this.


Especially when this is a pattern of behavior, and one that started BEFORE he even joined the team. They can't claim ignorance on this one.





The funny thing is that this raises the question of why the people who emailed the sponsors waited for a public drama thread rather than emailin right after Quantic signed destiny. If their excuse for the question of why they didn't give Quantic even 5 days to respond is "well Quantic already knew his behavior so what's gonna change now", then surely they would have emailed Razer right when quantic signed destiny, right? After all it's not like Quantic or destiny were going to change their ways down the line. But of course it wasn't until drama erupted that they got "outraged", because they're not really standin up for racial equality, they just are getting something out of fueling the flames of some drama.


Exactly. Anyone have an answer for this?

You guys disgust me. I'm not even joking or exaggerating; I had faith that Starcraft 2 could grow beyond what it is now before this happened. Because of this incident, I'm sure it will remain in the background. Never to be on ESPN, never to cross into the mainstream in any way. It's a shame that you people can't see past your blind hatred and learn to see the big picture.
Quite the opposite actually. It's people like YOU that disgust us. E-sport can NOT grow with professional players being racists left and right in public and with supporter like you telling others to "shut up and just don't watch if you don't like the racism". As been said, no other professional sports or entertainment industries have their players/employees sprouting racist comments in public, and neither should E-sport if it truly wants to be as big as the other industries.

I don't know of any bad things that happened from the orb or Destiny situation besides two guys losing their business engagements. Esports is a big place. It's like saying MLG isn't as big as television because Destiny or orb said nigger, whereas actually you can also turn on HBO if you want to hear all manner of interesting words. But nobody would say HBO is killing television. The only tangible damage that was done was people taking it upon themselves to be the guardians of a community that is millions of times greater than they are and losing some people their connections to sponsors.

If someone would like SC2 to be on cable, he can support something like MLG which is a very mainstream organization which could possibly go in that direction. Destiny's stream was never going to be on fucking ESPN to begin with, it's absurd to claim his innocuous ladder BM is stopping us having a bigger community. The thing that stops us having a bigger community is people who think it's their business how other people enjoy this game.


Yeah, God forbid if I get enjoyment in this game by making racist insults at my opponents. And worst of all, he says something about it on TL/Reddit; and people sympathize with him! They take action, and hey, that's not fair. I'm a victim now, and not him! This isn't how it is supposed to work.

Other people exercised their freedom of speech as per their wish (you know, contacting sponsors, making/posting threads on TL/Reddit). And yet, some would hypocritically lecture them on the consequences of doing so.

You didn't really read. I said these players didn't cause any harm besides that of losing their own sponsors due to the self-righteous backlash from people.

The way consequences work in the real world isn't that when you cross the street without looking, your peers tattle to your mom and she spanks you. It's that you get killed by a bus. Or you cause a pileup when a bus swerves to avoid splattering you. What Destiny and orb did in this case was walk across the street without looking and find themselves safely on the other side. They said nigger and nothing happened. Nothing happened to anyone. Then the internet found out about it, emailed people with a red face rather than a cool head, and they had to leave their organizations.

Seriously this argument is basically "There are consequences because I think there should be," then you email sponsors, thereby getting people to resign, and say "I told you there were consequences."


Your analogy is ridiculous. Crossing the street without looking and making it safely to the other side has no impact on anyone. People using language others find offensive obviously has an impact on then people who found the language offensive, or nothing would have happened.
Dundron2000
Profile Joined October 2011
Sweden1140 Posts
May 07 2012 21:32 GMT
#444
On May 08 2012 06:26 alpinefpOPP wrote:
What's sad about all these situations is that most of the people leading the mobs with their pitchforks dont even care about what was said. I agree when someone says racism and biggotry shouldnt be tolerated anyhwere, thats true, but the matter of the fact is that a huge number of people are just out to get anyone who slips up just because they can. What's even worse is the fact that it will never stop, this will continue until the community dies.


yes.. being against racist language truly the blight of our beloved community.

please note obvious sarcasm.
n.Die_Jaedong
Akash1223
Profile Joined March 2011
United States91 Posts
May 07 2012 21:34 GMT
#445
On May 08 2012 06:26 Falcor wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 08 2012 06:15 Akash1223 wrote:
On May 08 2012 06:07 gogatorsfoster wrote:
On May 08 2012 06:02 Akash1223 wrote:
On May 08 2012 05:47 gogatorsfoster wrote:
On May 08 2012 05:29 Akash1223 wrote:
On May 08 2012 05:20 gogatorsfoster wrote:
On May 08 2012 05:16 Akash1223 wrote:
On May 08 2012 05:07 gogatorsfoster wrote:
On May 08 2012 05:00 Akash1223 wrote:
[quote]

You seem to think "offensive language" is an objective term; it's not. People have the right to feel offended by whatever language they decide if offensive. It's not some all or nothing situation like you claim it is. Some people are offended by racial slurs, others by curse words, others by gender based slurs, and others by some combination; it's all valid. You don't have to be offended by all or none, you have the right to draw an arbitrary line because "offensive language" is an arbitrary term.


No no I made it very clear that words are more and less offensive to other people when I compared N***** and Fuck. Being offended means nothing anyway. My point was that If N****** is not ok then no other offensive words should because they really are all the same. Words are not racist people are. I could easily make a really racist sentence without a single offensive word.

You seem to have misunderstood my post. You keep saying things like 'if X offensive word is not ok, then Y offensive word should also not be ok." What I'm trying to say if there is no list of offensive words, because each person decides what is or is not offensive on their own. One person may find nigger offensive, but not fuck; for another person it may be the opposite. This does not make both words offensive. Each one of the words is offensive to one of the two people; people are free to tolerate one word and not tolerate the other, even if other people do the opposite.


I kind of feel like that was the point I was trying to make.
Summarized Destiny is not racist
Is it not ok for Destiny to be offensive?

I never said he, or anyone else was a racist. As for whether it's ok for him to be offensive, that depends on what you mean by offensive and what you mean by ok.

My point was that people have the right to be offended by whatever they decide is offensive. To use a non-language example; some people were offended by Naniwa's probe rush because they felt like they were robbed of the enjoyment of seeing a real game between Naniwa and Nestea. Many other people were not offended by this, found it funny//entertaining, or were indifferent. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

A team/employer will fire someone for being offensive if they decide the offensive comments/personality of the employee will cause them to lose more customers//supporters than the employee is bringing in. It's about bringing in more customers; if you offend too many people (regardless of how you offend them) it is not beneficial for the team to employee you. What is "ok" is determined by the community. If the community decides what you said is fine, and they will continue to support your team, you won't be fired; if they decide they were offended and you being on the team will cause them to stop supporting the team, then you will be fired.



Ok so I wasnt specifically talking about you. I was just getting sick of people saying Destiny was being racist because he uses offensive words.

And by being ok I mean we dont try and get him fired.

Being offended means nothing though. I really didnt want to link this video but I feel it is far too relevant and this guy says it better than I could + Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tn2EhGK5ok


Basically being offended is subjective nobody can decide what is more or less offensive then the other so it doesn't make sense to me that people try to.

The community cant decide what is ok, it is too big for us to form one opinion there are going to be people with over the top opinions on both sides always and they are going mess things up such as e-mailing sponsors immediately.


Edit** Might as well give my final thought because if I stay in this thread any longer it wont be good for my health

+ Show Spoiler +
Destiny is obviously not a racist. Which I was under the impression that he was being fired for acting racist.
Destiny is offensive, and I believe that everyone has the right to be offensive because what is offensive to some is not to another.

Fire racist people not offensive people

Words can not be racist , Ideas can


Yes, being offended is subjective. When I said the community decides, I didn't mean the community as a whole, I meant each individual person. Each person has the right to decide what is tolerable for them personally. If enough people find certain language intolerable, then the person who used that language gets fired. I'm not really sure what's difficult to understand here. If you offend more people than you please, you get fired.


Ok I know I said that was going to be my last post, but I had to come back here and say this. It is impossible not to offend someone. Thats my point. People shouldnt be fired because people are offended, I like the code of conduct idea from a few posts ago. That way kids dont start feeling overly important and start e-mailing sponsors.

In a perfect world people would be more mature and would not be offended/get over it. Seriously watch the youtube video that I posted in my last post he really says it amazingly.


I watched the video; it's talking about laws against offensive language. Nobody here is saying Naniwa, Orb, or Destiny should be put in jail.

What you are failing to understand is SC2 is within the entertainment industry. People watch because they want to be entertained. If people get offended, they are much less likely to be entertained, and therefore much less likely to watch. That's why you don't offend people. People should be fired if they are causing less people to watch. That's why every other part of the entertainment industry has requirements for people not to use offensive language. Esports is new, and not on the level of the rest of the industry yet, but as it grows it will have to conform to said requirements. The more people you offend, the less viewers you will have, and the harder it will be for Esports to grow.


there are specific sections of the entertainment industry that allows offensive language to be used. Movies, books ,tv(depending on the channel), and all comedy. But all of those forms(except books) have a rating system...kinda likehow streams can put a rating on their stream.

If you want to talk about the sports industry then thats a different story


I suppose sports-entertainment would have been more accurate.

However, that is besides the point. I'll use the movie example. Yes, movies have rating systems. And frequently, movie producers edit their movie such that it falls down from NC-17 to R, or from R to PG-13, because that way their movie can appeal to a larger audience. The goal is always to appeal to the largest audience possible while still maintaining the excellence of your product; thus if you can remove any offensive material from your movie without damaging the story/feeling of it, then you do. Nothing is added to a game of SC2 by using racial slurs; you can remove the racial slurs without losing anything at all from the overall product. That way, you keep all the viewers you already had, and allow yourself to obtain the viewers than previously would not watch due to the offensive language.
alpinefpOPP
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United States134 Posts
May 07 2012 21:34 GMT
#446
On May 08 2012 06:32 Dundron2000 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 08 2012 06:26 alpinefpOPP wrote:
What's sad about all these situations is that most of the people leading the mobs with their pitchforks dont even care about what was said. I agree when someone says racism and biggotry shouldnt be tolerated anyhwere, thats true, but the matter of the fact is that a huge number of people are just out to get anyone who slips up just because they can. What's even worse is the fact that it will never stop, this will continue until the community dies.


yes.. being against racist language truly the blight of our beloved community.

please note obvious sarcasm.



Yep, because thats what i was saying...
windsupernova
Profile Joined October 2010
Mexico5280 Posts
May 07 2012 21:34 GMT
#447
On May 08 2012 06:32 Dundron2000 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 08 2012 06:26 alpinefpOPP wrote:
What's sad about all these situations is that most of the people leading the mobs with their pitchforks dont even care about what was said. I agree when someone says racism and biggotry shouldnt be tolerated anyhwere, thats true, but the matter of the fact is that a huge number of people are just out to get anyone who slips up just because they can. What's even worse is the fact that it will never stop, this will continue until the community dies.


yes.. being against racist language truly the blight of our beloved community.

please note obvious sarcasm.


You are destroying the community by being against my freedom to shit up the community.How can´t you understand that?
"Its easy, just trust your CPU".-Boxer on being good at games
mango_destroyer
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada3914 Posts
May 07 2012 21:35 GMT
#448
On May 08 2012 05:28 Fubi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 08 2012 05:26 TheDougler wrote:
On May 08 2012 05:21 Fubi wrote:
On May 08 2012 05:10 QuanticCinergy wrote:
On May 08 2012 04:48 windsupernova wrote:
On May 08 2012 04:44 QuanticCinergy wrote:
Wow, I wrote a really awesome reply explaining my position on this in detail, and the browser didn't post properly, or I wasn't logged in or something, anyhow.... what I say here are my own views as a custodian of this community and it's future, not as a business leader and should not be viewed as an official position of Quantic Gaming - because we didn't make one, remember - that wasn't by accident. I have nothing to gain by sharing my personal perspective, but I hope that perhaps some of you might:

It's required that you speak directly with the player before making a statement of any kind. Unable to reach him until later than evening, and because TL did not close the forum post for the benefit of everyone involved, the sponsor calling and emails and brand bashing campaign were already well underway by then - the damage was done - making any sort of statement at that point would have only prolonged and increased the severity of the damage report. Bottom line - when people you work with at sponsors are being tapped in the shoulder by executive management they usually only know by name and title, about tickets/emails/calls from people talking about Hitler - people's jobs are on the line. Steven did all there was left to do by leaving the team willingly and respectfully. I respect and support his decision, and will miss working with him, because his antics aside, almost every pro player out there, aside from maybe White-Ra, could learn something from Steven about serving fans and building brands. Steven has done more direct community engagement for charitable causes than any other single player in the scene, and has always given of himself for fans, even for his critics. To assert that we shouldn't have provided him an opportunity to grow as a player and as a professional, when he expressed a clear desire to be taken more seriously in both, is a dramatic oversimplification of things that is mis-guided, cruel, and unfair. While I disagree with his using discriminatory language, Steven, in spite of his inner rage getting the best of him at times, may be full of a lot of things, but hate isn't one of them.


Why not respond with a simple..."we know about this thread, we'll talk with the people involved"?

That should at least buy you guys some time no? If people feel that their concerns are not being responded they will go to a higher instance.Hell Destiny had time to respond to the thread to say he doesn't give a ****. Why couldn't you guys take 5 minutes to at least appease the crowd?


I don't think you are clearly understanding my point at all here, there was no time. I realize it may all seem super simple from your standpoint, but things in a situation like this must be handled very carefully. We couldn't reach our player, had no idea when or where this dialog would go or when it would stop. We can't just be pacifying people with bullshit to comfort them. We must first fully understand what has happened, what has transpired transpired since, and where things stand now, both externally as well as with the player them self. By the time we had all of the needed information to be able to do anything productive the damage was already done...

The thing is, why does it need to even get to the point where viewers have to contact the team OR sponsor? Shouldn't the management itself have already told their employees to act professionally in public when representing the teams and sponsors? Or at the very least, shouldn't the players themselves have some common sense to be somewhat professional in public, especially considering the basis of this whole industry relies heavily on sponsorship (and therefore public image)?


QuanticCinergy has already stated a couple of times that they do tell their employees to act professionally and of course the players should have that common sense to act professional in public.

Thing is, Destiny clearly was NOT that type of guy to even begin with, and even after people complained, he publicly stated that he doesn't give a shit. So that brings us back to our point. The root of the problem isn't the pitch-forking, it's these players themselves.


Thats what I don`t understand. Apparently Quantic has these standards and values yet Destiny has always been like this since forever. We all know Destiny not going to give an apology anyways. I don`t think it is just a player`s problem, it is the management of the team. Is there no player screening at all?
Jisall
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States2054 Posts
May 07 2012 21:35 GMT
#449
On May 08 2012 06:34 windsupernova wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 08 2012 06:32 Dundron2000 wrote:
On May 08 2012 06:26 alpinefpOPP wrote:
What's sad about all these situations is that most of the people leading the mobs with their pitchforks dont even care about what was said. I agree when someone says racism and biggotry shouldnt be tolerated anyhwere, thats true, but the matter of the fact is that a huge number of people are just out to get anyone who slips up just because they can. What's even worse is the fact that it will never stop, this will continue until the community dies.


yes.. being against racist language truly the blight of our beloved community.

please note obvious sarcasm.


You are destroying the community by being against my freedom to shit up the community.How can´t you understand that?


Just because you think something shit's up the community doesn't mean it actually does.
Monk: Because being a badass is more fun then playing a dude wearing a scarf.. ... Ite fuck it, Witch Doctor cuz I like killing stuff in a timely mannor.
Dundron2000
Profile Joined October 2011
Sweden1140 Posts
May 07 2012 21:37 GMT
#450
On May 08 2012 06:34 windsupernova wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 08 2012 06:32 Dundron2000 wrote:
On May 08 2012 06:26 alpinefpOPP wrote:
What's sad about all these situations is that most of the people leading the mobs with their pitchforks dont even care about what was said. I agree when someone says racism and biggotry shouldnt be tolerated anyhwere, thats true, but the matter of the fact is that a huge number of people are just out to get anyone who slips up just because they can. What's even worse is the fact that it will never stop, this will continue until the community dies.


yes.. being against racist language truly the blight of our beloved community.

please note obvious sarcasm.


You are destroying the community by being against my freedom to shit up the community.How can´t you understand that?


freedom isnt free. no there's a hefty fucking fee - johnny cash RIP
n.Die_Jaedong
windsupernova
Profile Joined October 2010
Mexico5280 Posts
May 07 2012 21:38 GMT
#451
On May 08 2012 06:35 Jisall wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 08 2012 06:34 windsupernova wrote:
On May 08 2012 06:32 Dundron2000 wrote:
On May 08 2012 06:26 alpinefpOPP wrote:
What's sad about all these situations is that most of the people leading the mobs with their pitchforks dont even care about what was said. I agree when someone says racism and biggotry shouldnt be tolerated anyhwere, thats true, but the matter of the fact is that a huge number of people are just out to get anyone who slips up just because they can. What's even worse is the fact that it will never stop, this will continue until the community dies.


yes.. being against racist language truly the blight of our beloved community.

please note obvious sarcasm.


You are destroying the community by being against my freedom to shit up the community.How can´t you understand that?


Just because you think something shit's up the community doesn't mean it actually does.


Obviously a lot of people do think otherwise. Unless you are in favor of the line e mailed theory
"Its easy, just trust your CPU".-Boxer on being good at games
LanTAs
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States1091 Posts
May 07 2012 21:40 GMT
#452
Maybe there should be some a judicial branch of the SC2 community where we can hold these guys up for "trial". There could be like 9 judges (maybe each representing a site or some kind of community from somewhere) and like that could be something like a supreme court.
windsupernova
Profile Joined October 2010
Mexico5280 Posts
May 07 2012 21:41 GMT
#453
On May 08 2012 06:40 LanTAs wrote:
Maybe there should be some a judicial branch of the SC2 community where we can hold these guys up for "trial". There could be like 9 judges (maybe each representing a site or some kind of community from somewhere) and like that could be something like a supreme court.


Law and Order: eSports unit
"Its easy, just trust your CPU".-Boxer on being good at games
Eatme
Profile Blog Joined June 2003
Switzerland3919 Posts
May 07 2012 21:49 GMT
#454
I miss the old bw witch hunts and drama with WDT and whenever hackers were caught. Some racial slurs seems weak in comparison.
I guess we would have more funny drama if hacks were more detectable.
I have the best fucking lawyers in the country including the man they call the Malmis.
Chocobo
Profile Joined November 2006
United States1108 Posts
May 07 2012 21:54 GMT
#455
On May 08 2012 05:28 Fubi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 08 2012 05:26 TheDougler wrote:
On May 08 2012 05:21 Fubi wrote:
On May 08 2012 05:10 QuanticCinergy wrote:
On May 08 2012 04:48 windsupernova wrote:
On May 08 2012 04:44 QuanticCinergy wrote:
Wow, I wrote a really awesome reply explaining my position on this in detail, and the browser didn't post properly, or I wasn't logged in or something, anyhow.... what I say here are my own views as a custodian of this community and it's future, not as a business leader and should not be viewed as an official position of Quantic Gaming - because we didn't make one, remember - that wasn't by accident. I have nothing to gain by sharing my personal perspective, but I hope that perhaps some of you might:

It's required that you speak directly with the player before making a statement of any kind. Unable to reach him until later than evening, and because TL did not close the forum post for the benefit of everyone involved, the sponsor calling and emails and brand bashing campaign were already well underway by then - the damage was done - making any sort of statement at that point would have only prolonged and increased the severity of the damage report. Bottom line - when people you work with at sponsors are being tapped in the shoulder by executive management they usually only know by name and title, about tickets/emails/calls from people talking about Hitler - people's jobs are on the line. Steven did all there was left to do by leaving the team willingly and respectfully. I respect and support his decision, and will miss working with him, because his antics aside, almost every pro player out there, aside from maybe White-Ra, could learn something from Steven about serving fans and building brands. Steven has done more direct community engagement for charitable causes than any other single player in the scene, and has always given of himself for fans, even for his critics. To assert that we shouldn't have provided him an opportunity to grow as a player and as a professional, when he expressed a clear desire to be taken more seriously in both, is a dramatic oversimplification of things that is mis-guided, cruel, and unfair. While I disagree with his using discriminatory language, Steven, in spite of his inner rage getting the best of him at times, may be full of a lot of things, but hate isn't one of them.


Why not respond with a simple..."we know about this thread, we'll talk with the people involved"?

That should at least buy you guys some time no? If people feel that their concerns are not being responded they will go to a higher instance.Hell Destiny had time to respond to the thread to say he doesn't give a ****. Why couldn't you guys take 5 minutes to at least appease the crowd?


I don't think you are clearly understanding my point at all here, there was no time. I realize it may all seem super simple from your standpoint, but things in a situation like this must be handled very carefully. We couldn't reach our player, had no idea when or where this dialog would go or when it would stop. We can't just be pacifying people with bullshit to comfort them. We must first fully understand what has happened, what has transpired transpired since, and where things stand now, both externally as well as with the player them self. By the time we had all of the needed information to be able to do anything productive the damage was already done...

The thing is, why does it need to even get to the point where viewers have to contact the team OR sponsor? Shouldn't the management itself have already told their employees to act professionally in public when representing the teams and sponsors? Or at the very least, shouldn't the players themselves have some common sense to be somewhat professional in public, especially considering the basis of this whole industry relies heavily on sponsorship (and therefore public image)?


QuanticCinergy has already stated a couple of times that they do tell their employees to act professionally and of course the players should have that common sense to act professional in public.

Thing is, Destiny clearly was NOT that type of guy to even begin with, and even after people complained, he publicly stated that he doesn't give a shit. So that brings us back to our point. The root of the problem isn't the pitch-forking, it's these players themselves.


You, and so many other people, are missing the point.

Some players act in unpleasant and potentially offensive ways sometimes. This is a small problem. I say "small" because the solution is to simply avoid watching that player, but still... a few players will unexpectedly come across this bad behavior and be offended.

And what is the solution to this problem? Well, I can tell you what's NOT the solution - a mob of angry people going on witchhunts, frequently complaining to sponsors whenever they see something they don't like.

That is a much larger problem for the success of Starcraft 2 and the growth of E-sports. People who emailed Razer directly are a MUCH bigger harmful influence than Destiny or Orb.

Stop talking about "but Destiny deserved it" or "he used his free speech, well I just used my free speech back by complaining to sponsors", or "what goes around comes around". It's irrelevant and nobody cares what you reasons are.

Bottom line is that it is a significantly bad thing for the success of E-sports and continued sponsorships when people mass-complain to sponsors. It doesn't matter if you're doing it for a good reason - it hurts the game, and it is not the right way to handle things.
SnuggleZhenya
Profile Joined July 2010
596 Posts
May 07 2012 21:55 GMT
#456
On May 08 2012 06:40 LanTAs wrote:
Maybe there should be some a judicial branch of the SC2 community where we can hold these guys up for "trial". There could be like 9 judges (maybe each representing a site or some kind of community from somewhere) and like that could be something like a supreme court.


Part of the problem is that there isn't really a central organization. Somthing like the NFL which can deal out fines and suspensions to its players would in some sens actually be great because it would remove the onus from the teams and sponsors to effectively do the punishing. A sponsor is likely to not get cold feet or run if someone gets fined and there is some official disciplinary measure because they can see that while this one player may have done something bad, that the things they are supporting as a whole (eSports) has it head screwed on straight.
You'll never get better being an angry nerd sitting alone in your room.
StarStrider
Profile Joined August 2011
United States689 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-07 22:00:35
May 07 2012 21:58 GMT
#457
You forgot the Katu witch hunt.
Spontaneous Pneumothorax sucks, please keep MVP sC in your thoughts. sC fighting! 힘내세요
Dundron2000
Profile Joined October 2011
Sweden1140 Posts
May 07 2012 21:59 GMT
#458
On May 08 2012 06:54 Chocobo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 08 2012 05:28 Fubi wrote:
On May 08 2012 05:26 TheDougler wrote:
On May 08 2012 05:21 Fubi wrote:
On May 08 2012 05:10 QuanticCinergy wrote:
On May 08 2012 04:48 windsupernova wrote:
On May 08 2012 04:44 QuanticCinergy wrote:
Wow, I wrote a really awesome reply explaining my position on this in detail, and the browser didn't post properly, or I wasn't logged in or something, anyhow.... what I say here are my own views as a custodian of this community and it's future, not as a business leader and should not be viewed as an official position of Quantic Gaming - because we didn't make one, remember - that wasn't by accident. I have nothing to gain by sharing my personal perspective, but I hope that perhaps some of you might:

It's required that you speak directly with the player before making a statement of any kind. Unable to reach him until later than evening, and because TL did not close the forum post for the benefit of everyone involved, the sponsor calling and emails and brand bashing campaign were already well underway by then - the damage was done - making any sort of statement at that point would have only prolonged and increased the severity of the damage report. Bottom line - when people you work with at sponsors are being tapped in the shoulder by executive management they usually only know by name and title, about tickets/emails/calls from people talking about Hitler - people's jobs are on the line. Steven did all there was left to do by leaving the team willingly and respectfully. I respect and support his decision, and will miss working with him, because his antics aside, almost every pro player out there, aside from maybe White-Ra, could learn something from Steven about serving fans and building brands. Steven has done more direct community engagement for charitable causes than any other single player in the scene, and has always given of himself for fans, even for his critics. To assert that we shouldn't have provided him an opportunity to grow as a player and as a professional, when he expressed a clear desire to be taken more seriously in both, is a dramatic oversimplification of things that is mis-guided, cruel, and unfair. While I disagree with his using discriminatory language, Steven, in spite of his inner rage getting the best of him at times, may be full of a lot of things, but hate isn't one of them.


Why not respond with a simple..."we know about this thread, we'll talk with the people involved"?

That should at least buy you guys some time no? If people feel that their concerns are not being responded they will go to a higher instance.Hell Destiny had time to respond to the thread to say he doesn't give a ****. Why couldn't you guys take 5 minutes to at least appease the crowd?


I don't think you are clearly understanding my point at all here, there was no time. I realize it may all seem super simple from your standpoint, but things in a situation like this must be handled very carefully. We couldn't reach our player, had no idea when or where this dialog would go or when it would stop. We can't just be pacifying people with bullshit to comfort them. We must first fully understand what has happened, what has transpired transpired since, and where things stand now, both externally as well as with the player them self. By the time we had all of the needed information to be able to do anything productive the damage was already done...

The thing is, why does it need to even get to the point where viewers have to contact the team OR sponsor? Shouldn't the management itself have already told their employees to act professionally in public when representing the teams and sponsors? Or at the very least, shouldn't the players themselves have some common sense to be somewhat professional in public, especially considering the basis of this whole industry relies heavily on sponsorship (and therefore public image)?


QuanticCinergy has already stated a couple of times that they do tell their employees to act professionally and of course the players should have that common sense to act professional in public.

Thing is, Destiny clearly was NOT that type of guy to even begin with, and even after people complained, he publicly stated that he doesn't give a shit. So that brings us back to our point. The root of the problem isn't the pitch-forking, it's these players themselves.


You, and so many other people, are missing the point.

Some players act in unpleasant and potentially offensive ways sometimes. This is a small problem. I say "small" because the solution is to simply avoid watching that player, but still... a few players will unexpectedly come across this bad behavior and be offended.

And what is the solution to this problem? Well, I can tell you what's NOT the solution - a mob of angry people going on witchhunts, frequently complaining to sponsors whenever they see something they don't like.

That is a much larger problem for the success of Starcraft 2 and the growth of E-sports. People who emailed Razer directly are a MUCH bigger harmful influence than Destiny or Orb.

Stop talking about "but Destiny deserved it" or "he used his free speech, well I just used my free speech back by complaining to sponsors", or "what goes around comes around". It's irrelevant and nobody cares what you reasons are.

Bottom line is that it is a significantly bad thing for the success of E-sports and continued sponsorships when people mass-complain to sponsors. It doesn't matter if you're doing it for a good reason - it hurts the game, and it is not the right way to handle things.


no. just don't use racial slurs and then act like you're saving the internet from the taliban.
n.Die_Jaedong
Angel_
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
United States1617 Posts
May 07 2012 22:23 GMT
#459
Everyone is arguing for what they think is "correct"

And beyond that, no one really bothers to discuss anything; occasionally small clusters of people will quote and argue eachother to yell about things that are basically off-topic to the actual OP, but no one actually communicates with eachother. Everyone talks at eachother without listening, because they aren't interested in what other people have to say because they know they're "right".

But that isn't unique to starcraft. It's just more reason there needs to be a central body governing everything that people just have to accept.
iloveAthene
Profile Joined June 2011
186 Posts
May 07 2012 22:25 GMT
#460
On May 08 2012 00:12 SnuggleZhenya wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 07 2012 23:43 crocodile wrote:
The point is that it's NOT okay to fucking email sponsors about it. There are other ways of dealing with this that don't involve potentially cutting off funding for a team that supports players other than Destiny. What the fuck is complex about that?



I think this is a fundamental difference of opinion. In any other case (professional athlete, radio show host, tv personality, etc) I would absolutely notify sponsors that they were supporting someone who was saying these kinds of things. In fact, that are already countless examples of this happening, this isn't just some hypothetical. Now, I will come out and say right now that I've never contacted a sponsor about anything with regards to eSports/professional gaming, if only because by the time I find out about this stuff the ship has generally already sailed. One of the major differences, I freely admit, is that eSports teams and players are currently far more reliant on their sponsors than some other traditional sports, so it can be more damaging than it might be otherwise...


But this is something that eSports organizations going to have to learn to deal with. Players are public figures - especially when they are streaming or competing. And people are going to be upset by their actions if they are offensive. We can hem and haw and nitpick all day about just HOW offensive any given thing is, or whether or not someone "should" be offended by this or that, but at the end of the day the onus is on eSports organizations to handle this. That includes: setting clear rules and regulations for their players, being careful about who their sign to contracts if they have a history of this behavior, and so forth

Imagine this scenario in a pro sports environment. People absolutely would contact that player's sponsors. The player would likely be fined by the team and/or the league - probably as outlined in their contracts and player conduct rules. They player would also likely be suspended from a few games. They player would likely make a public apology, face some consequences, and people would feel ok about it because there was an acceptable punishment, the person apologized, and everyone can move on from the situation.
But right now there is no way to do this outside of the Korean eSports organizations which have some kind of central authority, and I suspect that is part of the problem here. There is no standard for conduct, there is no set of rules for what constitutes punishment for this sort of thing, and all of this is complicated even more by the fact that unlike in pro sports there is lots of solo "practice" time that is actually also broadcast public, so the lines between private and public are very blurred. We are seeing the results of a chaotic system which has no particular control over its players. There are some benefits to this, to be sure, but it also means that any player can do or say something which reflects poorly on EVERYONE, and there is no recourse.

Honestly, I don't have hard and fast answers to this problem. It is complicated and complex and given the nature of how this scene has grown - particularly around things like personal streaming - it is going to continue to be a problem. I'd like to see it start with the teams myself - if they had simple rules for conduct and punishment then this sort of thing would get dealt with publically and quickly. "Sorry I said this, it was in the heat of the moment and it was the wrong thing to say, I apologize" The team could fine them (which would act not just as a deterrent, but as a public acknowledgement of "we take this seriously"). And I think if people knew that teams took it seriously they would feel less compelled to go to the sponsors anyway.


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