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On May 08 2012 03:59 Dosey wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 03:44 Fubi wrote:On May 08 2012 03:29 Dosey wrote:On May 08 2012 03:26 Fubi wrote:On May 08 2012 03:21 Dosey wrote:On May 08 2012 03:03 Govou wrote:On May 08 2012 02:56 Dosey wrote:On May 08 2012 02:50 windsupernova wrote:On May 08 2012 02:46 Dosey wrote:On May 08 2012 02:44 windsupernova wrote:
[quote]
Stop with the strawman arguments. Not all people who complain do it to "feel important". And Lol Whistle blowers? Really?
All I see you is using strawman arguments. Then why even go to the sponsor? Why not do as I suggested? Why defend your "right" to go to the sponsor? Because going to the sponsor is the only real way we have to really pressure a team over an issue? So the threat to report them to a sponsor wouldn't work? How so? They obviously know you are serious. Fact is, if it is solved internally after your initial threat, there is no major backlash and you dont feel the importance that you feel now. All eyes are on you and your ilk because you had a hand in the current incident. You now feel important. If you send a quiet e-mail to quantic about Destiny and he is barred from the next event and doesnt stream for a month... people just assume he went MIA. You can't come to the forums and announce "IT WAS ME MUAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAH I SHUT DOWN THAT IGNORANT PRICK I DID IT IT WAS MEEEEEEEEE" your whole argument is wrong because you believe people do this to feel they are important. please try again Then at least try to answer the simple question I have asked multiple times with no valid answer. Why not report it to the team with your threats and demand a response? Why go directly to the sponsors? And for the one who said "How do you know that we didn't go to the team first?" Are you blind? The proof is everywhere. eG was BLINDSIDED by this and that is fact. The quantic manager himself has posted in this thread stating they should have came to him first and not gone to the sponsors. Another situation proving they went around the team directly toward the sponsor. Because sponsors are the ones that are directly paying them. Also, this helps to make sure teams be more careful in the future when picking players; shouldn't simply pick players just because they are popular, as some of the popularity could of came from being infamous. Either way, the people had every rights to do so. So it boils down to the fact that you didn't want such a person employed. You wanted his career ended because he is such a racist piece of shit? You wanted to teach their team a lesson by putting the entire team at risk for one persons mistake? "They lose their livelihood if they dont comply, THAT oughta teach them!!!" Makes sense :roll: Yes, it boils down to the fact that people didn't want such a racist person employed. They didn't want a "racist piece of shit" getting paid to be racist. And they wanted to teach teams a lesson so that in the future, they are clean of such racism within our e-sport community. Yes, you are correct. So what's the problem? Do you realize how ridiculous and utterly self-important this sounds? " I don't think you deserve a job because you are racist so I am going to do everything in my power to make sure you dont have a job" You are aware that your statements are more hate-filled than the offender, correct? He has a RIGHT to be racist if he wants to be racist (not that he is). Guess what? The KKK could set up shop right outside your front yard and there isn't a damn thing you could do about it so long as they have a legal permit. It is their right. Your reasoning has got to be the most intolerant bigoted thing I've ever read... and it disgusts me.
Wait what? So you're saying it's ok if people get paid for being racist? I'm sorry dude, but I'm curious, did you time travel to the future from 1950?
*edit: and you said he has the right to be racist if he wants to be racist? Well guess what, these people complaining has JUST AS MUCH rights (if not more) to complain to the sponsors. So what exactly is your argument again?
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On May 08 2012 03:59 Dosey wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 03:44 Fubi wrote:On May 08 2012 03:29 Dosey wrote:On May 08 2012 03:26 Fubi wrote:On May 08 2012 03:21 Dosey wrote:On May 08 2012 03:03 Govou wrote:On May 08 2012 02:56 Dosey wrote:On May 08 2012 02:50 windsupernova wrote:On May 08 2012 02:46 Dosey wrote:On May 08 2012 02:44 windsupernova wrote:
[quote]
Stop with the strawman arguments. Not all people who complain do it to "feel important". And Lol Whistle blowers? Really?
All I see you is using strawman arguments. Then why even go to the sponsor? Why not do as I suggested? Why defend your "right" to go to the sponsor? Because going to the sponsor is the only real way we have to really pressure a team over an issue? So the threat to report them to a sponsor wouldn't work? How so? They obviously know you are serious. Fact is, if it is solved internally after your initial threat, there is no major backlash and you dont feel the importance that you feel now. All eyes are on you and your ilk because you had a hand in the current incident. You now feel important. If you send a quiet e-mail to quantic about Destiny and he is barred from the next event and doesnt stream for a month... people just assume he went MIA. You can't come to the forums and announce "IT WAS ME MUAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAH I SHUT DOWN THAT IGNORANT PRICK I DID IT IT WAS MEEEEEEEEE" your whole argument is wrong because you believe people do this to feel they are important. please try again Then at least try to answer the simple question I have asked multiple times with no valid answer. Why not report it to the team with your threats and demand a response? Why go directly to the sponsors? And for the one who said "How do you know that we didn't go to the team first?" Are you blind? The proof is everywhere. eG was BLINDSIDED by this and that is fact. The quantic manager himself has posted in this thread stating they should have came to him first and not gone to the sponsors. Another situation proving they went around the team directly toward the sponsor. Because sponsors are the ones that are directly paying them. Also, this helps to make sure teams be more careful in the future when picking players; shouldn't simply pick players just because they are popular, as some of the popularity could of came from being infamous. Either way, the people had every rights to do so. So it boils down to the fact that you didn't want such a person employed. You wanted his career ended because he is such a racist piece of shit? You wanted to teach their team a lesson by putting the entire team at risk for one persons mistake? "They lose their livelihood if they dont comply, THAT oughta teach them!!!" Makes sense :roll: Yes, it boils down to the fact that people didn't want such a racist person employed. They didn't want a "racist piece of shit" getting paid to be racist. And they wanted to teach teams a lesson so that in the future, they are clean of such racism within our e-sport community. Yes, you are correct. So what's the problem? Do you realize how ridiculous and utterly self-important this sounds? "I don't think you deserve a job because you are racist so I am going to do everything in my power to make sure you dont have a job" You are aware that your statements are more hate-filled than the offender, correct? He has a RIGHT to be racist if he wants to be racist (not that he is). Guess what? The KKK could set up shop right outside your front yard and there isn't a damn thing you could do about it so long as they have a legal permit. It is their right. Your reasoning has got to be the most intolerant bigoted thing I've ever read... and it disgusts me.
Have you ever had a job? Try to keep one if you were using hate speech while at work. Let me know how that works out for you.
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I think we think witch hunts have too much power.
Almost everyone assumes player X is getting fired because of the number of complaints the sponsor received. The possibility that the sponsor actually thinks that the behavior of player X was not proper and they dont want to be associated with such behavior seems to be really small.
And if not we - the community - are not thankful enough to our sponsors.
Let's say that Razer received 500 mails from people complaining about Destiny. What would Razer do if they received 5000 earlier mails "Omg thank you for signing & supporting Destiny".
If it's really _only_ a number game Razer would then say "5000 guys who like him, 500 who dont like him - well let's dont care!".
Even if only 500 people mentioned they liked the signing it would be enough since companies like Razer certainly know that people are more likely to complain compared to saying "Thanks".
So I have to say that imho witch hunts are way overvalued. People are punished because of inproper behavior. You can defend Naniwa/Orb/Destiny/whoever as much as you want - if the sponsor thinks the behaviour was inproper there will be punishment.
And no our society isnt at a stage where racism is ok (doesnt matter if it's just words beeing words, or people who are offended are the racists , ...). Even if you are right - it's not socially accepted. And you're not in a position to argue it.
What can we improve?
Teams responding faster. Being global - as soon as a thread pops up I give teams 12hours to respond.
It's enough when teams say "We saw this thread & will follow it. We have to verify it & want to talk to the player first. We will release a public announcement within 24hours".
Yes, this is the internet - we expect fast responses.
Also if you like a player. Write the sponsor a mail / tweet and tell them that you're thankful of them supporting team/league X.
Hell why not organize a "Thank you for supporting player X" day via fanclubs/reddit etc? A day where all supporters spam the sponsors with thank you messages  Basically a "well meant witch hunt". But hey... complaining is - as always - easier.
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On May 08 2012 04:01 Fubi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 03:59 Dosey wrote:On May 08 2012 03:44 Fubi wrote:On May 08 2012 03:29 Dosey wrote:On May 08 2012 03:26 Fubi wrote:On May 08 2012 03:21 Dosey wrote:On May 08 2012 03:03 Govou wrote:On May 08 2012 02:56 Dosey wrote:On May 08 2012 02:50 windsupernova wrote:On May 08 2012 02:46 Dosey wrote:
[quote]
Then why even go to the sponsor? Why not do as I suggested? Why defend your "right" to go to the sponsor? Because going to the sponsor is the only real way we have to really pressure a team over an issue? So the threat to report them to a sponsor wouldn't work? How so? They obviously know you are serious. Fact is, if it is solved internally after your initial threat, there is no major backlash and you dont feel the importance that you feel now. All eyes are on you and your ilk because you had a hand in the current incident. You now feel important. If you send a quiet e-mail to quantic about Destiny and he is barred from the next event and doesnt stream for a month... people just assume he went MIA. You can't come to the forums and announce "IT WAS ME MUAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAH I SHUT DOWN THAT IGNORANT PRICK I DID IT IT WAS MEEEEEEEEE" your whole argument is wrong because you believe people do this to feel they are important. please try again Then at least try to answer the simple question I have asked multiple times with no valid answer. Why not report it to the team with your threats and demand a response? Why go directly to the sponsors? And for the one who said "How do you know that we didn't go to the team first?" Are you blind? The proof is everywhere. eG was BLINDSIDED by this and that is fact. The quantic manager himself has posted in this thread stating they should have came to him first and not gone to the sponsors. Another situation proving they went around the team directly toward the sponsor. Because sponsors are the ones that are directly paying them. Also, this helps to make sure teams be more careful in the future when picking players; shouldn't simply pick players just because they are popular, as some of the popularity could of came from being infamous. Either way, the people had every rights to do so. So it boils down to the fact that you didn't want such a person employed. You wanted his career ended because he is such a racist piece of shit? You wanted to teach their team a lesson by putting the entire team at risk for one persons mistake? "They lose their livelihood if they dont comply, THAT oughta teach them!!!" Makes sense :roll: Yes, it boils down to the fact that people didn't want such a racist person employed. They didn't want a "racist piece of shit" getting paid to be racist. And they wanted to teach teams a lesson so that in the future, they are clean of such racism within our e-sport community. Yes, you are correct. So what's the problem? Do you realize how ridiculous and utterly self-important this sounds? " I don't think you deserve a job because you are racist so I am going to do everything in my power to make sure you dont have a job" You are aware that your statements are more hate-filled than the offender, correct? He has a RIGHT to be racist if he wants to be racist (not that he is). Guess what? The KKK could set up shop right outside your front yard and there isn't a damn thing you could do about it so long as they have a legal permit. It is their right. Your reasoning has got to be the most intolerant bigoted thing I've ever read... and it disgusts me. Wait what? So you're saying it's ok if people get paid for being racist? I'm sorry dude, but I'm curious, did you time travel to the future from 1950?
DEFENSE ATTORNEYS DEFEND MURDERERS, THEY MUST BE MURDERERS THEMSELVES AND SUPPORT MURDER OMG!!!!111!
No, I'm not saying being racist is "okay" However, it is their right to be racist if they wish and to bring ill will upon someone who is racist is even more intolerant that said racist person and is even more of a hate crime. You people remind me of those religious fanatics that protest Army funerals. You make me sick.
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On May 08 2012 03:53 crocodile wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 03:50 HorsemasterK wrote:On May 08 2012 03:48 crocodile wrote:On May 08 2012 03:44 Fubi wrote:On May 08 2012 03:29 Dosey wrote:On May 08 2012 03:26 Fubi wrote:On May 08 2012 03:21 Dosey wrote:On May 08 2012 03:03 Govou wrote:On May 08 2012 02:56 Dosey wrote:On May 08 2012 02:50 windsupernova wrote:
[quote]
Because going to the sponsor is the only real way we have to really pressure a team over an issue?
So the threat to report them to a sponsor wouldn't work? How so? They obviously know you are serious. Fact is, if it is solved internally after your initial threat, there is no major backlash and you dont feel the importance that you feel now. All eyes are on you and your ilk because you had a hand in the current incident. You now feel important. If you send a quiet e-mail to quantic about Destiny and he is barred from the next event and doesnt stream for a month... people just assume he went MIA. You can't come to the forums and announce "IT WAS ME MUAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAH I SHUT DOWN THAT IGNORANT PRICK I DID IT IT WAS MEEEEEEEEE" your whole argument is wrong because you believe people do this to feel they are important. please try again Then at least try to answer the simple question I have asked multiple times with no valid answer. Why not report it to the team with your threats and demand a response? Why go directly to the sponsors? And for the one who said "How do you know that we didn't go to the team first?" Are you blind? The proof is everywhere. eG was BLINDSIDED by this and that is fact. The quantic manager himself has posted in this thread stating they should have came to him first and not gone to the sponsors. Another situation proving they went around the team directly toward the sponsor. Because sponsors are the ones that are directly paying them. Also, this helps to make sure teams be more careful in the future when picking players; shouldn't simply pick players just because they are popular, as some of the popularity could of came from being infamous. Either way, the people had every rights to do so. So it boils down to the fact that you didn't want such a person employed. You wanted his career ended because he is such a racist piece of shit? You wanted to teach their team a lesson by putting the entire team at risk for one persons mistake? "They lose their livelihood if they dont comply, THAT oughta teach them!!!" Makes sense :roll: Yes, it boils down to the fact that people didn't want such a racist person employed. They didn't want a "racist piece of shit" getting paid to be racist. And they wanted to teach teams a lesson so that in the future, they are clean of such racism within our e-sport community. Yes, you are correct. So what's the problem? The problem is that you're killing e-sports. If you don't have a problem with that, there's nothing to discuss other than that you're a piece of shit and nobody wants you in our community. call the whaaaambulance. esports is killed on a daily basis, and somehow manages to revive itself. If you think esports can't persist without racist/homophobic/sexist language, I feel really bad for you. E-Sports can't persist if every time someone makes a racist/homophobic/sexist comment, somebody calls up the sponsors. If you can't understand that, you've got a severe mental handicap.
People who are supposed to be professionals in e-sports shouldn't be making those remarks in the first place because it damages the image, puts off sponsors, investors and makes the scene appear less welcoming for potential fans. It's not tolerated in major sports and if e-sports is going to be anything other than a tiny niche activity then that sort of behaviour needs to go away, if complaining to team management and sponsors is the way it has to happen then that's the way it has to happen.
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I think people are forgetting that WE, the community, control esports. We are the boss.
Not the sponsors, not the players, not the teams, us! Without us there would be none of those things. I can't think of a main stream sports community that would tolerate a player saying 'nigger' and other slurs in an insulting way on an almost daily basis. In Destiny's time on Quantic, I never saw them make a statement regarding Destiny's behavior nor did I see Destiny trying to improve his demeanor in any way.
To have this continue was unacceptable to us, so as the 'boss', we emailed Razer and expressed our discomfort. Obviously, Razer doesn't think they are "just words" because they stated they will not support a player who uses obscene and demeaning language.
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1. This is an entertainment industry
2. I am not entertained by racism/homophobia
C: I don't want to watch/listen to people like the casters you mentioned
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On May 08 2012 04:05 Dosey wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 04:01 Fubi wrote:On May 08 2012 03:59 Dosey wrote:On May 08 2012 03:44 Fubi wrote:On May 08 2012 03:29 Dosey wrote:On May 08 2012 03:26 Fubi wrote:On May 08 2012 03:21 Dosey wrote:On May 08 2012 03:03 Govou wrote:On May 08 2012 02:56 Dosey wrote:On May 08 2012 02:50 windsupernova wrote:
[quote]
Because going to the sponsor is the only real way we have to really pressure a team over an issue?
So the threat to report them to a sponsor wouldn't work? How so? They obviously know you are serious. Fact is, if it is solved internally after your initial threat, there is no major backlash and you dont feel the importance that you feel now. All eyes are on you and your ilk because you had a hand in the current incident. You now feel important. If you send a quiet e-mail to quantic about Destiny and he is barred from the next event and doesnt stream for a month... people just assume he went MIA. You can't come to the forums and announce "IT WAS ME MUAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAH I SHUT DOWN THAT IGNORANT PRICK I DID IT IT WAS MEEEEEEEEE" your whole argument is wrong because you believe people do this to feel they are important. please try again Then at least try to answer the simple question I have asked multiple times with no valid answer. Why not report it to the team with your threats and demand a response? Why go directly to the sponsors? And for the one who said "How do you know that we didn't go to the team first?" Are you blind? The proof is everywhere. eG was BLINDSIDED by this and that is fact. The quantic manager himself has posted in this thread stating they should have came to him first and not gone to the sponsors. Another situation proving they went around the team directly toward the sponsor. Because sponsors are the ones that are directly paying them. Also, this helps to make sure teams be more careful in the future when picking players; shouldn't simply pick players just because they are popular, as some of the popularity could of came from being infamous. Either way, the people had every rights to do so. So it boils down to the fact that you didn't want such a person employed. You wanted his career ended because he is such a racist piece of shit? You wanted to teach their team a lesson by putting the entire team at risk for one persons mistake? "They lose their livelihood if they dont comply, THAT oughta teach them!!!" Makes sense :roll: Yes, it boils down to the fact that people didn't want such a racist person employed. They didn't want a "racist piece of shit" getting paid to be racist. And they wanted to teach teams a lesson so that in the future, they are clean of such racism within our e-sport community. Yes, you are correct. So what's the problem? Do you realize how ridiculous and utterly self-important this sounds? " I don't think you deserve a job because you are racist so I am going to do everything in my power to make sure you dont have a job" You are aware that your statements are more hate-filled than the offender, correct? He has a RIGHT to be racist if he wants to be racist (not that he is). Guess what? The KKK could set up shop right outside your front yard and there isn't a damn thing you could do about it so long as they have a legal permit. It is their right. Your reasoning has got to be the most intolerant bigoted thing I've ever read... and it disgusts me. Wait what? So you're saying it's ok if people get paid for being racist? I'm sorry dude, but I'm curious, did you time travel to the future from 1950? DEFENSE ATTORNEYS DEFEND MURDERERS, THEY MUST BE MURDERERS THEMSELVES AND SUPPORT MURDER OMG!!!!111! No, I'm not saying being racist is "okay" However, it is their right to be racist if they wish and to bring ill will upon someone who is racist is even more intolerant that said racist person and is even more of a hate crime. You people remind me of those religious fanatics that protest Army funerals. You make me sick. But they don't have a right to maintain employment. You have a right to exist as a racist. This is true. But you have no right to hold a job, while you cause problems for the company you represent by being a racist. If the company is willing to put up with it, you keep your job. They aren't, you are fired. That's the real world.
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On May 08 2012 04:07 xrapture wrote:
I think people are forgetting that WE, the community, control esports. We are the boss.
Not the sponsors, not the players, not the teams, us! Without us there would be none of those things. I can't think of a main stream sports community that would tolerate a player saying 'nigger' and other slurs in an insulting way on an almost daily basis. In Destiny's time on Quantic, I never saw them make a statement regarding Destiny's behavior nor did I see Destiny trying to improve his demeanor in any way.
To have this continue was unacceptable to us, so as the 'boss', we emailed Razer and expressed our discomfort. Obviously, Razer doesn't think they are "just words" because they stated they will not support a player who uses obscene and demeaning language.
Newsflash:
They did support him and still do. The sponsor drop did nothing to hurt his income and people continue to watch his stream. The only thing that was accomplished was the risk of Quantic losing their sponsorship because people refuse to try to handle things privately.
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This might be a crazy idea but here's what I think could help:
For example, in Destiny's stream, if there was something in there in between commercial breaks that state: "this stream is meant for entertainment purposes only and does not reflect the views of the sponsors, team, or individual. Any and all views expressed within are fictional and intended for entertainment purposes."
There you go. They key word here is fictional. People won't complain over something that they are assured, has no basis on reality. It's just a show, much like any sitcom, romcom, movie, and so on.
That would also cover everyone's backside, everyone concerned - the individual, the team, the sponsors...everyone's safeguarded.
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On May 08 2012 04:05 Dosey wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 04:01 Fubi wrote:On May 08 2012 03:59 Dosey wrote:On May 08 2012 03:44 Fubi wrote:On May 08 2012 03:29 Dosey wrote:On May 08 2012 03:26 Fubi wrote:On May 08 2012 03:21 Dosey wrote:On May 08 2012 03:03 Govou wrote:On May 08 2012 02:56 Dosey wrote:On May 08 2012 02:50 windsupernova wrote:
[quote]
Because going to the sponsor is the only real way we have to really pressure a team over an issue?
So the threat to report them to a sponsor wouldn't work? How so? They obviously know you are serious. Fact is, if it is solved internally after your initial threat, there is no major backlash and you dont feel the importance that you feel now. All eyes are on you and your ilk because you had a hand in the current incident. You now feel important. If you send a quiet e-mail to quantic about Destiny and he is barred from the next event and doesnt stream for a month... people just assume he went MIA. You can't come to the forums and announce "IT WAS ME MUAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAH I SHUT DOWN THAT IGNORANT PRICK I DID IT IT WAS MEEEEEEEEE" your whole argument is wrong because you believe people do this to feel they are important. please try again Then at least try to answer the simple question I have asked multiple times with no valid answer. Why not report it to the team with your threats and demand a response? Why go directly to the sponsors? And for the one who said "How do you know that we didn't go to the team first?" Are you blind? The proof is everywhere. eG was BLINDSIDED by this and that is fact. The quantic manager himself has posted in this thread stating they should have came to him first and not gone to the sponsors. Another situation proving they went around the team directly toward the sponsor. Because sponsors are the ones that are directly paying them. Also, this helps to make sure teams be more careful in the future when picking players; shouldn't simply pick players just because they are popular, as some of the popularity could of came from being infamous. Either way, the people had every rights to do so. So it boils down to the fact that you didn't want such a person employed. You wanted his career ended because he is such a racist piece of shit? You wanted to teach their team a lesson by putting the entire team at risk for one persons mistake? "They lose their livelihood if they dont comply, THAT oughta teach them!!!" Makes sense :roll: Yes, it boils down to the fact that people didn't want such a racist person employed. They didn't want a "racist piece of shit" getting paid to be racist. And they wanted to teach teams a lesson so that in the future, they are clean of such racism within our e-sport community. Yes, you are correct. So what's the problem? Do you realize how ridiculous and utterly self-important this sounds? " I don't think you deserve a job because you are racist so I am going to do everything in my power to make sure you dont have a job" You are aware that your statements are more hate-filled than the offender, correct? He has a RIGHT to be racist if he wants to be racist (not that he is). Guess what? The KKK could set up shop right outside your front yard and there isn't a damn thing you could do about it so long as they have a legal permit. It is their right. Your reasoning has got to be the most intolerant bigoted thing I've ever read... and it disgusts me. Wait what? So you're saying it's ok if people get paid for being racist? I'm sorry dude, but I'm curious, did you time travel to the future from 1950? DEFENSE ATTORNEYS DEFEND MURDERERS, THEY MUST BE MURDERERS THEMSELVES AND SUPPORT MURDER OMG!!!!111! No, I'm not saying being racist is "okay" However, it is their right to be racist if they wish and to bring ill will upon someone who is racist is even more intolerant that said racist person and is even more of a hate crime. You people remind me of those religious fanatics that protest Army funerals. You make me sick.
Wait, so you're saying that complaining about racism is worst than being racist itself? I'm sorry to ask again, did you time travel to the future from the 1950's?
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On May 08 2012 04:03 Zocat wrote:I think we think witch hunts have too much power. Almost everyone assumes player X is getting fired because of the number of complaints the sponsor received. The possibility that the sponsor actually thinks that the behavior of player X was not proper and they dont want to be associated with such behavior seems to be really small. And if not we - the community - are not thankful enough to our sponsors. Let's say that Razer received 500 mails from people complaining about Destiny. What would Razer do if they received 5000 earlier mails "Omg thank you for signing & supporting Destiny". If it's really _only_ a number game Razer would then say "5000 guys who like him, 500 who dont like him - well let's dont care!". Even if only 500 people mentioned they liked the signing it would be enough since companies like Razer certainly know that people are more likely to complain compared to saying "Thanks". So I have to say that imho witch hunts are way overvalued. People are punished because of inproper behavior. You can defend Naniwa/Orb/Destiny/whoever as much as you want - if the sponsor thinks the behaviour was inproper there will be punishment. And no our society isnt at a stage where racism is ok (doesnt matter if it's just words beeing words, or people who are offended are the racists , ...). Even if you are right - it's not socially accepted. And you're not in a position to argue it. What can we improve? Teams responding faster. Being global - as soon as a thread pops up I give teams 12hours to respond. It's enough when teams say "We saw this thread & will follow it. We have to verify it & want to talk to the player first. We will release a public announcement within 24hours". Yes, this is the internet - we expect fast responses. Also if you like a player. Write the sponsor a mail / tweet and tell them that you're thankful of them supporting team/league X. Hell why not organize a "Thank you for supporting player X" day via fanclubs/reddit etc? A day where all supporters spam the sponsors with thank you messages Basically a "well meant witch hunt". But hey... complaining is - as always - easier.
Your 'well meant witch hunt' actually sounds like a great idea in my opinion. It would give an extrinsic motivation to teams to provide the highest quality to the community, and lets face it, people would rather hear 'keep up the good work' over 'I don't like X'. Even if it only happens rarely, it would still be a welcome change to see more positive feedback thrown to teams and sponsors than complaints all the time.
EDIT: Maybe shouldn't say all the time, they likely get some compliments too, but I imagine it is much more sporadic than the complaints. Also, please guys, try to be civil. The whole point of a discussion is that people will have differing opinions on the subject matter, they are not required to agree with your opinions. If they pose an opportunity to refute, or ask a question, feel free to respond, but don't flame someone because they don't share the same opinion as you.
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LOL at all these mad destiny fan boys.
User was warned for this post
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On May 08 2012 04:05 Dosey wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 04:01 Fubi wrote:On May 08 2012 03:59 Dosey wrote:On May 08 2012 03:44 Fubi wrote:On May 08 2012 03:29 Dosey wrote:On May 08 2012 03:26 Fubi wrote:On May 08 2012 03:21 Dosey wrote:On May 08 2012 03:03 Govou wrote:On May 08 2012 02:56 Dosey wrote:On May 08 2012 02:50 windsupernova wrote:
[quote]
Because going to the sponsor is the only real way we have to really pressure a team over an issue?
So the threat to report them to a sponsor wouldn't work? How so? They obviously know you are serious. Fact is, if it is solved internally after your initial threat, there is no major backlash and you dont feel the importance that you feel now. All eyes are on you and your ilk because you had a hand in the current incident. You now feel important. If you send a quiet e-mail to quantic about Destiny and he is barred from the next event and doesnt stream for a month... people just assume he went MIA. You can't come to the forums and announce "IT WAS ME MUAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAH I SHUT DOWN THAT IGNORANT PRICK I DID IT IT WAS MEEEEEEEEE" your whole argument is wrong because you believe people do this to feel they are important. please try again Then at least try to answer the simple question I have asked multiple times with no valid answer. Why not report it to the team with your threats and demand a response? Why go directly to the sponsors? And for the one who said "How do you know that we didn't go to the team first?" Are you blind? The proof is everywhere. eG was BLINDSIDED by this and that is fact. The quantic manager himself has posted in this thread stating they should have came to him first and not gone to the sponsors. Another situation proving they went around the team directly toward the sponsor. Because sponsors are the ones that are directly paying them. Also, this helps to make sure teams be more careful in the future when picking players; shouldn't simply pick players just because they are popular, as some of the popularity could of came from being infamous. Either way, the people had every rights to do so. So it boils down to the fact that you didn't want such a person employed. You wanted his career ended because he is such a racist piece of shit? You wanted to teach their team a lesson by putting the entire team at risk for one persons mistake? "They lose their livelihood if they dont comply, THAT oughta teach them!!!" Makes sense :roll: Yes, it boils down to the fact that people didn't want such a racist person employed. They didn't want a "racist piece of shit" getting paid to be racist. And they wanted to teach teams a lesson so that in the future, they are clean of such racism within our e-sport community. Yes, you are correct. So what's the problem? Do you realize how ridiculous and utterly self-important this sounds? " I don't think you deserve a job because you are racist so I am going to do everything in my power to make sure you dont have a job" You are aware that your statements are more hate-filled than the offender, correct? He has a RIGHT to be racist if he wants to be racist (not that he is). Guess what? The KKK could set up shop right outside your front yard and there isn't a damn thing you could do about it so long as they have a legal permit. It is their right. Your reasoning has got to be the most intolerant bigoted thing I've ever read... and it disgusts me. Wait what? So you're saying it's ok if people get paid for being racist? I'm sorry dude, but I'm curious, did you time travel to the future from 1950? DEFENSE ATTORNEYS DEFEND MURDERERS, THEY MUST BE MURDERERS THEMSELVES AND SUPPORT MURDER OMG!!!!111! No, I'm not saying being racist is "okay" However, it is their right to be racist if they wish and to bring ill will upon someone who is racist is even more intolerant that said racist person and is even more of a hate crime. You people remind me of those religious fanatics that protest Army funerals. You make me sick.
Disliking someone just because their racist is more of a hate crime than actually being racist? What universe are you from? This is one of the worst posts I've ever read on TeamLiquid.
"God where do you get off telling people they can't hate others for attributes you're born with?"
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I haven't read through every response here, but here are a couple of thoughts.
1. In the 3 cases the OP brings up here is what happened once the "witch-hunts" began.
a) Naniwa makes several apologies, written statements, an appearance on Live on 3, is very apologetic - regardless of whether he meant it or not.
b) Orb calls his accusers idiots, lies to his team about what he did, and lies to the community in general.
c)Destiny antagonizes his accusers, tells everyone he's going to go down screaming "gook" "nigger" and "faggot"
Plenty of people - athletes, business owners, celebrities, have made similar mistakes - the ones who actually want to keep their jobs apologize (regardless of whether or not they mean it). The witch-hunts die down. Their careers remain intact (even Mel Gibson kept making movies after his initial anti-semitic outburst). If Orb or Destiny had said (even with no intention of meaning it) "I was angry, I fucked up, sorry everyone" there wouldn't have been a witch-hunt.
2. There are a lot of people on the internet. The majority of the witch-hunting is certainly done by the community, but once the things orb or destiny say/do are out in the public domain there's no telling who is going to see those screenshots/VODs/etc and complain. The people who complain may not even know what the fuck SC2 is, and there is nothing you can do about them. The chances of that sort of thing happening will grow more and more as esports grows. There is especially danger of this when many of the people who follow the scene are of a fairly young age. We all know how much some parents like to rail on video games/computer games in general. If the community tolerates racism from some of its most high profile players it's setting itself up for trouble.
3. Let's follow the Incontrol method in the future. Email the team before the sponsor. Give the team a chance to make a statement/dole out punishment. Imagine if orb had just been fined or suspended for a little bit, that's probably a pretty fair punishment that teaches him a lesson, and also doesn't put everyone on EG at risk if the sponsors pull out. Or if Quantic had a chance to talk to Destiny and say "you can't say that shit on stream with out logos up". Destiny would have said no, and been dropped from the team still, but nobody is putting Naniwa or Sase's salary at risk as a result.
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On May 08 2012 04:08 tripp6sic6 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 04:05 Dosey wrote:On May 08 2012 04:01 Fubi wrote:On May 08 2012 03:59 Dosey wrote:On May 08 2012 03:44 Fubi wrote:On May 08 2012 03:29 Dosey wrote:On May 08 2012 03:26 Fubi wrote:On May 08 2012 03:21 Dosey wrote:On May 08 2012 03:03 Govou wrote:On May 08 2012 02:56 Dosey wrote:
[quote]
So the threat to report them to a sponsor wouldn't work? How so? They obviously know you are serious.
Fact is, if it is solved internally after your initial threat, there is no major backlash and you dont feel the importance that you feel now. All eyes are on you and your ilk because you had a hand in the current incident. You now feel important.
If you send a quiet e-mail to quantic about Destiny and he is barred from the next event and doesnt stream for a month... people just assume he went MIA. You can't come to the forums and announce
"IT WAS ME MUAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAH I SHUT DOWN THAT IGNORANT PRICK I DID IT IT WAS MEEEEEEEEE" your whole argument is wrong because you believe people do this to feel they are important. please try again Then at least try to answer the simple question I have asked multiple times with no valid answer. Why not report it to the team with your threats and demand a response? Why go directly to the sponsors? And for the one who said "How do you know that we didn't go to the team first?" Are you blind? The proof is everywhere. eG was BLINDSIDED by this and that is fact. The quantic manager himself has posted in this thread stating they should have came to him first and not gone to the sponsors. Another situation proving they went around the team directly toward the sponsor. Because sponsors are the ones that are directly paying them. Also, this helps to make sure teams be more careful in the future when picking players; shouldn't simply pick players just because they are popular, as some of the popularity could of came from being infamous. Either way, the people had every rights to do so. So it boils down to the fact that you didn't want such a person employed. You wanted his career ended because he is such a racist piece of shit? You wanted to teach their team a lesson by putting the entire team at risk for one persons mistake? "They lose their livelihood if they dont comply, THAT oughta teach them!!!" Makes sense :roll: Yes, it boils down to the fact that people didn't want such a racist person employed. They didn't want a "racist piece of shit" getting paid to be racist. And they wanted to teach teams a lesson so that in the future, they are clean of such racism within our e-sport community. Yes, you are correct. So what's the problem? Do you realize how ridiculous and utterly self-important this sounds? " I don't think you deserve a job because you are racist so I am going to do everything in my power to make sure you dont have a job" You are aware that your statements are more hate-filled than the offender, correct? He has a RIGHT to be racist if he wants to be racist (not that he is). Guess what? The KKK could set up shop right outside your front yard and there isn't a damn thing you could do about it so long as they have a legal permit. It is their right. Your reasoning has got to be the most intolerant bigoted thing I've ever read... and it disgusts me. Wait what? So you're saying it's ok if people get paid for being racist? I'm sorry dude, but I'm curious, did you time travel to the future from 1950? DEFENSE ATTORNEYS DEFEND MURDERERS, THEY MUST BE MURDERERS THEMSELVES AND SUPPORT MURDER OMG!!!!111! No, I'm not saying being racist is "okay" However, it is their right to be racist if they wish and to bring ill will upon someone who is racist is even more intolerant that said racist person and is even more of a hate crime. You people remind me of those religious fanatics that protest Army funerals. You make me sick. But they don't have a right to maintain employment. You have a right to exist as a racist. This is true. But you have no right to hold a job, while you cause problems for the company you represent by being a racist. If the company is willing to put up with it, you keep your job. They aren't, you are fired. That's the real world.
You obviously weren't here for the evolution of the conversation. I asked them to provide a reason as to why they cant go to the team rather than directly to the sponsor. Quoted said "To teach them a lesson for employing a racist!" That, in itself, is hate. There is no logical reason provided as to why things can't be handled in a civil manner, they instantly go to the racism card and spew their hate for the offender directly at the sponsor.
By the way, No, you can't fire someone for being a racist, just like you can't fire someone for being black, asian, woman, gay, straight, bi, handicapped, atheist, muslim, christian, rastafarian, blind, etc... That is called intolerance and frowned upon by our government. Yes, you can be fired for inappropriate language in a normal work environment, but that is another silly notion considering the number of F-bombs dropped by even the friendliest of our community pillars, Day[9]. So, the argument of "inappropriate language in a normal workplace gets you fired" is null and void. So lets just go on and scoop that out the window as well.
All that is left here is hate. Hate for "Hate Speech" which is still HATE. The quoted wanted to punish the offenders for daring to spout "hate speech" and they made it their personal mission to hurt this person. Regardless of who else was hurt in the process. That didnt matter, because he HATED the way the offenders spoke. This type of intolerence is just as bad if not worse than what the offenders did.
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On May 08 2012 04:07 Roe wrote:
1. This is an entertainment industry
2. I am not entertained by racism/homophobia
C: I don't want to watch/listen to people like the casters you mentioned
So don't watch them. Which part of that means you have to hurt Quantic's relationship with their sponsors?
Also: thank you Dosey, for being reasonable and making some sense. If you're frustrated by this thread like I am, it might make you feel better to know that there are people who agree with you 100%.
There is no point in having freedoms if we can't tolerate them taken to their extreme. That's why you can't fight Westboro Baptist Church; they have the right to do what they do, even if the fucking KKK thinks they're assholes.
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On May 08 2012 04:05 Dosey wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 04:01 Fubi wrote:On May 08 2012 03:59 Dosey wrote:On May 08 2012 03:44 Fubi wrote:On May 08 2012 03:29 Dosey wrote:On May 08 2012 03:26 Fubi wrote:On May 08 2012 03:21 Dosey wrote:On May 08 2012 03:03 Govou wrote:On May 08 2012 02:56 Dosey wrote:On May 08 2012 02:50 windsupernova wrote:
[quote]
Because going to the sponsor is the only real way we have to really pressure a team over an issue?
So the threat to report them to a sponsor wouldn't work? How so? They obviously know you are serious. Fact is, if it is solved internally after your initial threat, there is no major backlash and you dont feel the importance that you feel now. All eyes are on you and your ilk because you had a hand in the current incident. You now feel important. If you send a quiet e-mail to quantic about Destiny and he is barred from the next event and doesnt stream for a month... people just assume he went MIA. You can't come to the forums and announce "IT WAS ME MUAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAH I SHUT DOWN THAT IGNORANT PRICK I DID IT IT WAS MEEEEEEEEE" your whole argument is wrong because you believe people do this to feel they are important. please try again Then at least try to answer the simple question I have asked multiple times with no valid answer. Why not report it to the team with your threats and demand a response? Why go directly to the sponsors? And for the one who said "How do you know that we didn't go to the team first?" Are you blind? The proof is everywhere. eG was BLINDSIDED by this and that is fact. The quantic manager himself has posted in this thread stating they should have came to him first and not gone to the sponsors. Another situation proving they went around the team directly toward the sponsor. Because sponsors are the ones that are directly paying them. Also, this helps to make sure teams be more careful in the future when picking players; shouldn't simply pick players just because they are popular, as some of the popularity could of came from being infamous. Either way, the people had every rights to do so. So it boils down to the fact that you didn't want such a person employed. You wanted his career ended because he is such a racist piece of shit? You wanted to teach their team a lesson by putting the entire team at risk for one persons mistake? "They lose their livelihood if they dont comply, THAT oughta teach them!!!" Makes sense :roll: Yes, it boils down to the fact that people didn't want such a racist person employed. They didn't want a "racist piece of shit" getting paid to be racist. And they wanted to teach teams a lesson so that in the future, they are clean of such racism within our e-sport community. Yes, you are correct. So what's the problem? Do you realize how ridiculous and utterly self-important this sounds? " I don't think you deserve a job because you are racist so I am going to do everything in my power to make sure you dont have a job" You are aware that your statements are more hate-filled than the offender, correct? He has a RIGHT to be racist if he wants to be racist (not that he is). Guess what? The KKK could set up shop right outside your front yard and there isn't a damn thing you could do about it so long as they have a legal permit. It is their right. Your reasoning has got to be the most intolerant bigoted thing I've ever read... and it disgusts me. Wait what? So you're saying it's ok if people get paid for being racist? I'm sorry dude, but I'm curious, did you time travel to the future from 1950? DEFENSE ATTORNEYS DEFEND MURDERERS, THEY MUST BE MURDERERS THEMSELVES AND SUPPORT MURDER OMG!!!!111! No, I'm not saying being racist is "okay" However, it is their right to be racist if they wish and to bring ill will upon someone who is racist is even more intolerant that said racist person and is even more of a hate crime. You people remind me of those religious fanatics that protest Army funerals. You make me sick.
This is a common fallacy I see in this thread. "Free speech" simply means that no speech is illegal. The government can't go after streamers for spouting racism. This is completely different from "consequence free speech," which is how a lot of people in this thread are choosing to define it.
Once we're dealing with the private sector, free seech doesn't get you very far. As long as you are representing a company, there are certain standards of behavior they can hold you to in exchange for financial support. I'm not really sure how this is a hard concept to grasp, or how the fact that you exist on the internet changes this in any way. People get fired all the time for way less serious offenses than racial slurs, and you don't hear anything about it.
Now, if people were trying to get Twitch or whoever broadcasts Destiny to take his stream off of the internet forever and ever, that would be completely different and could probably be considered censorship and a free speech issue. Contacting sponsors isn't, that's completely different. Destiny is allowed to say whatever he wants, but that doesn't mean he has to get paid for it.
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Just a quick update:
1. You have a right to be racist.
2. You have a right to say racist things.
3. You have a right to be offended.
4. You have a right to voice your offense to whoever you like.
5. That person(s) has the right to agree or disagree with you as they like.
6. An employer has a right to employ, or not, the people they choose.
1. You do NOT have a right to a job.
2. You do NOT have a right to have people put up with your crap, whether they like it or not.
3. You do NOT have a right to tell a company which employees it does or does not hire based on your own personal system of beliefs and ethics.
Carry on.
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EPT
