Newbie Mini Mafia VIII - Page 19

I didn't say, at any point, that I had a town read on imallinson... I just said my suspicions of him "dropped a bit" after he made some valid additional points about ArcticFox and voted for him. I didn't think Mafia would so eagerly jump on the first possibility of a bandwagon - from what I've seen, Mafia usually wait until lynching someone gathers strong enough support and then blend in with the mass of voters. I'm not saying Mafia have to play passive and/or leave the initiative for town, but imallinson's fast agreement with my vote didn't seem very Mafia-like to me (too reckless and careless - generally Mafia are cautious and avoid the spotlight).

On April 13 2012 20:31 KharadBanar wrote:
Okay, I just got up and caught up with the thread, and that huge post by Acrofales did change my priorities here somewhat:

Before, my biggest scum reads went something like this: Dittert, yomi, HiroPro, maybe BroodKing (?)
I had my vote on yomi to get him to contribute something useful, which isn't going to happen until shortly before the deadline so it's useless on him for that purpose and better off on one of my bigger scum reads.

Now Acrofales has posted his suspicion on willz, I see some extremely good points in that post and did as he said (read through willz's filter (1) "knowing" he was mafia and (2) "knowing" he was town) and the mafia explanation really does make a lot more sense.

Now my scum reads go as follows: willz, probably Dittert, and likely one of yomi and HiroPro the lurkers.
With this in mind, and the fact that willz really needs to explain himself, I will change my vote to him for he is my biggest scum read right now.

##Unvote
##Vote: willz22912

On April 14 2012 02:11 willz22912 wrote:
I called out imallinson because he was so quick to drop his stances on everything with a "good argument" and that Xatalos was letting him latch onto his case against ArcticFox without any questioning. HiroPro has also not contributed nearly as much as he could have.

Then take a look at the part I highlighted in red, here he starts arguing against transparency and having town not release scumlists. How is that not anti-town behavior? Releasing scumlists helps us hunt scum, it's as simple as that, information not shared is information not known. Very scummy in my mind.

On April 13 2012 23:39 Xatalos wrote:

Acrofales, I looked at Willz's filter and I agree something is off about him. It's weird, because initially he was my strongest town read (replaced by you later), but his later posts have been more and more suspicious. ArcticFox and imallinson addressed my cases against them by calmly finding the holes in my logic, but Willz didn't actually respond to Dittert's (somewhat weak) accusations - instead he chose to start an OMGUS war against Dittert ("why do you want to lynch me, I didn't want to lynch you before, but now I do, because you want to lynch me!"). He has also been saying everyone should be transparent, but he himself has been the opposite of transparent. Why would a townie indeed want to hide his opinions so much?

On April 14 2012 02:19 imallinson wrote:


I dropped my stance on Arctic after he and other people had poked holes in Xatalos' argument, which seems perfectly reasonable to me. Then I made a case against trumpetarn and have stuck with it when bandwaggoning you would have been the easiest thing in the world. I'm not entirely sure why you think I am so quick to drop my stances (especially confused about the plurality there I have only changed my vote once and that was due to a reasoned counter-argument).

On April 14 2012 02:07 vonKlaust wrote:
Oh, lol, I completely forgot to answer that part.

Here goes.



Your suspicions dropped a bit because he provided evidence for a lynch rather than just wait and blindly bandwagon. Of course mafia would want to provide evidence for lynches to act more town. If they see a chance to put the spotlight on some townie, it would make sense for the mafia to try to frame that person.
Basically there is two strategies as town:
1. Try to blend in
2. Try to establish your innocense
Ofcourse these can be combined, but you seem to take for granted that Imallinson would go for blending in. It's just as likely that he would want to frame ArticFox if he thinks he can get away with it.
The fact that Imallinson provided evidence to your case says nothing about his alignment. It makes just as much sense for a scum trying to lynch a townie to provide evidence as it does for a townie trying to lynch a mafia members.
To me, it just feels like what Imallinson wrote shouldn't have been enough to explicilty state that your suspicions of him dropping.

You didn't adress the point about trying to justify your case on other grounds than it being a good case. I'm curious on your thoughts about that.

On April 14 2012 01:47 willz22912 wrote:
My case against BroodKingEXE:

I advise everyone to in addition to this case where I point out his most glaring scumminess, take a look at his filter as a whole and see how much contribution he's really done. If you are accusing me of contributing without contributing, then what has he been doing?

1. Initially is suspicious of Dittert here, one of the top targets considering his RNG proposal and how hard it was shut down by myself and ArcticFox:
How is this "an accusation against [...] how hard the proposal was shut down by ArcticFox and you"? What BroodKing wrote here seems like a totally fine point to make in my book.

2. Calls for a consolidation of the vote here to narrow down the likely suspects for a lynch so that Mafia have a easier time to hide behind the bandwagon: Of course consolidating votes is a good idea for town. If you consolidate your votes sure Mafia can bandwagon on them, but if you don't you give them every possibility to twist the outcome to their liking because nobody has a large enough edge over the other. Are you proposing we should do that?

3. Next, he follows up on his "suspicions" of Dittert by posting this: How is this statement scummy? It's not a decidedly town statement in itself but it's in no way more likely that it comes from a scum player.

4. I immediately call BroodKingEXE out for his vote on Dittert and here is his response:
Notice that his reasoning for Dittert is very flimsy, he's willing to change his vote at anytime, but feels like picking on the easiest target with the most suspicion and gives little to no weight to his case. Then take a look at the part I highlighted in red, here he starts arguing against transparency and having town not release scumlists. How is that not anti-town behavior? Releasing scumlists helps us hunt scum, it's as simple as that, information not shared is information not known. Very scummy in my mind.
This seems like a totally fine point to make, not posting your scum reads is definitely not something you want to do as town. HOWEVER, you seem to have gone by that advice quite a bit today, not posting scum reads for a long time until now.

5. BroodKingEXE lets Dittert off the hook with 1 post! Here:

So basically, the whole vote on Dittert was pointless, one post (not even saying what parts of it was "good information") lets him take off the vote? How strong are BroodKingEXE's convictions, how readily is he willing to drop his vote and change it to the most easiest target, currently myself? He calls out Yomi here:

Did BroodkingExe in your minds declare a pressure vote, or make a decent case against Dittert? No? Then why is he calling out Yomi for his own hypocrisy?
I at least agree with you on this one, calling yomi out on not declaring a pressure vote is definitely hypocritical. This does however not mean that his pressure vote on Dittert earlier was a bad idea. It certainly was better than the failpressure plan I had against HiroPro.

6. When I defend myself against Dittert's accusation, and tell him to stop because he's not helping. I was admittedly angry because of how relentless he had become in his tunneling of me and took it out on Dittert.
BroodkingEXE however, jumps in with this:

He says there is no wasted discussion, and every post is important, but he doesn't contribute anything of value except for commenting on my posts against Dittert. But note the red part I highlighted here, What is that sentence supposed to mean? How does he know who is mafia and who is town, and whose opinion is important, does he have the inside knowledge of who's who that only a Mafia would have at this point? You decide.
How do you know he meant it that way? If you have someone figured out to be scummy, you are naturally going to trust him less than people you have a town read on, it's not something you can only do if you have confirmation of someone to be town.

7. He continues to post comments about my "discussion" with Dittert:
I stated that I believed Dittert to be a newbie town who is tunneling me because of a misguided notion that I was trying to mis-lynch him (when did I ever do this, where in the thread did I call on others to vote for Dittert?) Even if I was defending Dittert he doesn't owe me anything, what cause would I have for defending him other than believing he was town, and that town should defend other town? What possible reason could I have as Mafia to defend Dittert? Also note the red part I highlighted again, What is this statement mean as well? How are we supposed to prove the alignment of one another, how am I supposed to change Dittert's opinion of me if he continues to think I am Mafia when I am not?

8. I call BroodKingEXE out on his comments about my posts, and whether or not he has enough spine to actually adhere to a stance: His response is this:
So for all the posts he's made about me, he doesn't see anything wrong with any of my other posts, but currently thinks Yomi is still more suspicious than me. He was not willing to go out on his own and make a case against me supporting Dittert's accusations, he was willing to just post fluff and seem like he's contributing.
Why should he have made a case against you when he wasn't that suspicious of you at the time? He even said "I don't see anything particularly damning about your other posts". Do you want him to make a case on you when he thinks you're probably town?

9 Finally, his last post and the vote he makes on me:
So now when 4 other people are against me and my lynch is all but assured, he jumps in at the last moment with this? This is plurality vote, 4 should have been enough already, but 5 is all but pointless. Even if you don't change your vote on me, please look at BroodKingEXE for bandwagoning on my lynch with little to no support when I flip town.
Yes, this is a good point. Why would he jump on the bandwagon that late if he wasn't suspicious of you before? I don't know, maybe because he read that excellent Acrofales case on you? I don't think that he did this for no reason.

Posting my rebuttal of all of your accusations now.

On April 14 2012 02:11 willz22912 wrote:
My other top scum reads are KharadBanar (He played well in Newbie VI if you see his OP and his filter, but he has posted little to nothing of worth, never stated an opinion on me, and now is jumping on my lynch because it's easy.
Here's his post:
So his opinion of Mafia behavior is to bus someone else this early? Why would Dittert be Mafia yet push his teammate's lynch? How does this logic work? What basis do you have of your own opinion to vote me, considering you never even had me on your radar before.

On April 14 2012 02:11 willz22912 wrote:
##Vote: BroodkingEXE

Thanks for pointing that out.

Anyway, adding on and trying to be as transparent as I can since I'm pretty much getting lynched.
My other top scum reads are KharadBanar (He played well in Newbie VI if you see his OP and his filter, but he has posted little to nothing of worth, never stated an opinion on me, and now is jumping on my lynch because it's easy.
Here's his post:
So his opinion of Mafia behavior is to bus someone else this early? Why would Dittert be Mafia yet push his teammate's lynch? How does this logic work? What basis do you have of your own opinion to vote me, considering you never even had me on your radar before.

My last suspicion is either imallinson or HiroPro, I called out imallinson because he was so quick to drop his stances on everything with a "good argument" and that Xatalos was letting him latch onto his case against ArcticFox without any questioning. HiroPro has also not contributed nearly as much as he could have.

Lastly, I am also willing to give Yomi the benefit of the doubt and assume he's an overly defensive newb (since this is his first game as well) Say what you want about me OMGUSing my suspicions, I'm going to be dead after today, you need to remember these names and remember what I posted. I will try and be active as I can until the deadline in order to be of the most use to town.

On April 14 2012 02:33 willz22912 wrote:
Xatalos, you may agree with the case against me, but please correct this statement here:



I still don't want to lynch Dittert, I still believe he is a newbie town and he will be very chagrined by the alignment I flip. I did not really start the OMGUS war, because I see that the original basis for Dittert's case against me was that he thought I was trying to start a mis-lynch on him because of his rng-proposal. Technically, he has started the OMGUS war all along. I only got angry about it, which has led to my downfall. You even state here that it's (somewhat weak) accusations. I did try to address them, but it was mostly about specific posts I made (out of many) that he found suspicious. He never made a solid case against me, I just wanted him to stop.

If you are willing to lynch me because I became overly defensive when it came to a first time forum player continuing to attack me with what everyone agrees is poor logic, that's fine, but realize that I still don't think that Dittert is Mafia, and when I flip, please don't lynch him first, go after the others on my bandwagon.

On April 12 2012 08:58 Dittert wrote:
What if we all agree to a rng lynch... at least proposing someone to lynch via rng. Then we have something to take a stance on.

, I saw someone suggest a seemingly "random" lynch in a couple other games, and in all of those cases the person doing the suggesting ended up getting lynched and being a townie.

On April 12 2012 23:53 Dittert wrote:




How does that not scream scum? It's not just that he doesn't want a Lynch all Liars policy (which would in theory encourage, or at least allow for, lying), but he dismisses it out of hand. "Don't dwell on liars" is exactly the kind of thing scum would say

On April 12 2012 23:53 Dittert wrote:
Second, we have this gem:


Town willing to kill other town? Even a bad townie (or a townie with a bad idea) is still a townie. It seems to me that this is a numbers game, and you should want as many people on your team alive as possible.

On April 13 2012 09:23 Dittert wrote:
Note how even though he lists the 1/2/3 mafia as AF/me/hiropro, he doesn't vote for #1, he votes for me.

On April 13 2012 10:49 Dittert wrote:

Well, I admitted that part was a little weak. I can change my read if you want, since I now think someone else is definitely town, but I won't say who or why for fear of endangering his life.

On April 13 2012 22:54 Dittert wrote:

2. Though he has participated a lot, he has not really accused anyone of anything (with a nod to the token aggression towards iamallinson). I think he's waiting until the very end to make any concrete statement so he can judge what stance will be most beneficial to scum.

On April 13 2012 01:00 Dittert wrote:
You claim to be the first person in the thread to attack me, but willz and Arctic attacked me first.

On April 14 2012 02:55 willz22912 wrote:
@ KharadBanar

You're really going to assume that this is a giant ploy by Mafia to bus me so Dittert gains credibility? I find that to be totally without basis and completely WIFOM on what Mafia would do. Fine, don't exclude it from your thinking, but do you really honestly believe that is the most likely scenario here? What about that we're both town and it's a mis-lynch, that is not likely at all to you? Why are you associating that Dittert and I are both Mafia in your minds so strongly? You've posted in the past about your suspicions about Dittert, but this is the first time you've linked us together as the Mafia team, and that logic is absurd and full of WIFOM.

Also, you post holes in my case about BroodKingEXE but you seem to gloss over the correlation between 8. and 9. So you're willing to let him slide for admitting that he saw nothing suspicious or wrong about anything else, but when Acrofales makes his case, he's allowed to go from 0 suspicion to voting me? So again, BroodKingEXE is not willing to make his own case, but he will eagerly follow anothers lead? Does this not strike you as scummy?

You also think the Acrofales case on me is the key point in my demise, okay, I will go write a rebuttal to that now.