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On April 20 2012 23:04 Xatalos wrote:
Any suggestions for me? Should I have continued to push yomi after BroodKingEXE's "divine intervention"' for Mafia? Was it a good idea to direct Doc to Acrofales (saving his life, according to Mafia chat), while casting suspicion on myself with that blue talk? How should I start the game, was it a good idea to make a case already on somewhat weak merits? Should I be less active?
Its important to approach every situation with as a clean slate. Constantly reevaluate your reads. Remember that a mafia player can decide day 1 that he is going to push his teammates, and copy all of your reads and ideas. You never know, and thats why no one is "confirmed town" until they die. Mafia can adjust their behavior however they want.
The best way to do this is to read everyone's posts at least twice. First read it with the idea in your head that they are town. Ask yourself what they are trying to say in this post, and if it makes sense for their alignment. Then reread it thinking they are scum, ask yourself the same.
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United Kingdom36160 Posts
As a general comment, this game suffered from way too much Connection-WIFOM play. Like, so much o.o
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On April 21 2012 00:46 marvellosity wrote:
As a general comment, this game suffered from way too much Connection-WIFOM play. Like, so much o.o
Exactly my point. In almost every newbie game I watch, people come in with this notion that because you voted for/pushed a mafia player, that you are town. The reverse also applies, that if you defended/supported a town player, you are therefore town.
People have to keep in mind at all times that mafia are not bound by some set of rules that force them to defend their teammates.
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United Kingdom36160 Posts
On April 21 2012 00:51 GreYMisT wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2012 00:46 marvellosity wrote:
As a general comment, this game suffered from way too much Connection-WIFOM play. Like, so much o.o Exactly my point. In almost every newbie game I watch, people come in with this notion that because you voted for/pushed a mafia player, that you are town. The reverse also applies, that if you defended/supported a town player, you are therefore town. People have to keep in mind at all times that mafia are not bound by some set of rules that force them to defend their teammates.
Yep, except it went a step further even - if/when blabla flips red, then blabla can/can't be green, yadayada. They didn't even have a red flip to WIFOM off in the first place :x
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Thanks for the advice! Just read ObsQT as well -.- WTF... It was almost more active than the game itself...
I missed a lot of things in this game, but you have to remember, it's MUCH easier when you have a clear head, plenty of people collaborating together, and even some outside help (like knowing Dittert was DT beforehand). I was too stuck on KB being "confirmed townie" (burn in hell KB!!  ) and I couldn't believe he was Mafia, until he used even much worse logic than myself or Willz to get me lynched. Then I knew he had to be Mafia, considering he was good with logic otherwise...
Had Funcmode believed me, we would have won (or at least been off to a good spot to find the remaining Mafia!) since yomi came back so late, and with Funcmode's support, it would have been 4-4 in favor of town. It was so damn close!!! Also, sorry BroodKingEXE, I've been too hard on you. Hopefully you understand my frustration with the yomi lynch ruined..
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United Kingdom36160 Posts
On April 21 2012 01:21 Xatalos wrote:Thanks for the advice! Just read ObsQT as well -.- WTF... It was almost more active than the game itself... I missed a lot of things in this game, but you have to remember, it's MUCH easier when you have a clear head, plenty of people collaborating together, and even some outside help (like knowing Dittert was DT beforehand). I was too stuck on KB being "confirmed townie" (burn in hell KB!! ) and I couldn't believe he was Mafia, until he used even much worse logic than myself or Willz to get me lynched. Then I knew he had to be Mafia, considering he was good with logic otherwise... Had Funcmode believed me, we would have won (or at least been off to a good spot to find the remaining Mafia!) since yomi came back so late, and with Funcmode's support, it would have been 4-4 in favor of town. It was so damn close!!! Also, sorry BroodKingEXE, I've been too hard on you. Hopefully you understand my frustration with the yomi lynch ruined..
It's why Mattchew's advice is good. Step back, think, breathe.
And why no-one is 'confirmed town' until they flip.
Unfortunately both mafia and town (except vonklaust) had a logic melt-down with Dittert's claim on the last day.
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Logically it would have been correct to lynch Yomi on day 1 even after BKEXE's failpost. If BKEXE is scum, why would he make a late switch to the vote-leading townie? His vote reasoning was garbage, sure, but the agenda made no sense unless Yomi was also scum. The possibility of BKEXE simply having a massive logic failure as town made Yomi the correct lynch choice.
It's rather sad because this is the closest I've seen a newbie town get to a day 1 scum lynch, and it was well deserved. Day 1 town play was generally very good.
Day 2 wasn't up to the standard of day 1, unfortunately. Too many players stopped scumhunting and you ended up with a choice between a martyr pushed by scum (Dittert) and a style case pushed by a lurker (Xatalos), with almost no pressure or analysis on anyone else. Until Acrofales turned everything upside down, Dittert had the most useful post of day 2 (yomi/willz case).
There's no good reason for that. On day 2, you should be going back through every filter with an open mind and looking for evidence. Don't get into the mindset of looking for two popular cases to choose between. If town is playing on cruise control, you'll just end up with the lynch that's most popular with scum. Also don't stop prodding people when you spot something that doesn't make sense, even if it's from days back.
Day 3 started with the same problem. Note that without the DT claim, town would still have been choosing between two townies. Was everyone really sure that either of Xatalos or Willz were scum? Apparently not, as no-one seemed to have a strong opinion except Xatalos and Willz themselves. So re-read the filters and find a better case. Don't be scared to break up a fight that you think might be between two townies. If nothing else, seeing their reactions to another case can tell you a lot more than just watching them defend themselves.
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On April 21 2012 01:34 jaj22 wrote:
Logically it would have been correct to lynch Yomi on day 1 even after BKEXE's failpost. If BKEXE is scum, why would he make a late switch to the vote-leading townie? His vote reasoning was garbage, sure, but the agenda made no sense unless Yomi was also scum. The possibility of BKEXE simply having a massive logic failure as town made Yomi the correct lynch choice.
It's rather sad because this is the closest I've seen a newbie town get to a day 1 scum lynch, and it was well deserved. Day 1 town play was generally very good.
Day 2 wasn't up to the standard of day 1, unfortunately. Too many players stopped scumhunting and you ended up with a choice between a martyr pushed by scum (Dittert) and a style case pushed by a lurker (Xatalos), with almost no pressure or analysis on anyone else. Until Acrofales turned everything upside down, Dittert had the most useful post of day 2 (yomi/willz case).
There's no good reason for that. On day 2, you should be going back through every filter with an open mind and looking for evidence. Don't get into the mindset of looking for two popular cases to choose between. If town is playing on cruise control, you'll just end up with the lynch that's most popular with scum. Also don't stop prodding people when you spot something that doesn't make sense, even if it's from days back.
Day 3 started with the same problem. Note that without the DT claim, town would still have been choosing between two townies. Was everyone really sure that either of Xatalos or Willz were scum? Apparently not, as no-one seemed to have a strong opinion except Xatalos and Willz themselves. So re-read the filters and find a better case. Don't be scared to break up a fight that you think might be between two townies. If nothing else, seeing their reactions to another case can tell you a lot more than just watching them defend themselves.
Yeah, I think I went with the peer pressure. Everyone voted for BroodKingEXE in like 5 minutes, and there was only less than 30 minutes left? I didn't think I could convince the others to go with yomi anymore. Had there been more time, or had BroodKingEXE actually defended himself, it would have been a Day 1 Mafia lynch (and a pretty likely town win after that, looking at the connections with yomi etc.)
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BKEXE did attempt to defend himself, but his defense was wrong. Mafia never attempt a last-minute switch on day 1 because it's so obviously scummy. You'd have simply lynched both Yomi and the switcher on day 2 and 3.
Turns out he was honestly wrong. It happens
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On April 21 2012 01:56 jaj22 wrote:BKEXE did attempt to defend himself, but his defense was wrong. Mafia never attempt a last-minute switch on day 1 because it's so obviously scummy. You'd have simply lynched both Yomi and the switcher on day 2 and 3. Turns out he was honestly wrong. It happens
A more experienced town would have done exactly that -- lynch Yomi Day 1, and then probably BKE Day 2 unless he did some serious contributing.
But that's why we play the newbie games -- to learn.
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Yeah... Well, now he knows better!  Indeed I doubt Mafia would make a last-minute switch on Day 1, of all days. There was some logic in what he did, but it was under the assumption that Mafia wouldn't be ready to bus their teammate (yomi), which they were clearly already going to do.
Also, I think one of my mistakes was to make accusations on so many targets (at once / after one another). Every townie knows they are town, so they'll become automatically suspicious of someone who wants to lynch them. That's partly the reason why I couldn't convince Willz or funcmode to vote for KharadBanar (either one of them would have been enough) at the decisive moment: I had been ready to lynch them both just a while earlier, so they would rather believe the other "pro-town voice" (KB) who didn't want to lynch them!
I should focus on one target a time, not the whole possible Mafia team... Being too wide in my accusations just leads to OMGUS from the townies I accuse (even if they try to ignore the feeling, my credibility in their eyes drops because of that).
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Mafia bussing Yomi was the correct play given that town were clearly moving in that direction and there was no good alternative. I initially thought KB was a bit early on the bus, but he was under pressure because he'd accepted Willz's defence and he'd expressed suspicion of Yomi earlier.
The other part is tricky. I'm inclined to think that you actually got the aggression balance about right in day 1 and the real problem was with players reacting poorly to it. It's something that's much less of a problem when players have more games between them. Being attacked when you're innocent is something that you have to get used to.
For that reason there's no good way to play newbie games, so don't curtail your aggression just because it didn't work out in this game. If anything, you focused too narrowly from day 2, like the rest of town.
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On April 21 2012 05:24 jaj22 wrote:
Mafia bussing Yomi was the correct play given that town were clearly moving in that direction and there was no good alternative. I initially thought KB was a bit early on the bus, but he was under pressure because he'd accepted Willz's defence and he'd expressed suspicion of Yomi earlier.
The other part is tricky. I'm inclined to think that you actually got the aggression balance about right in day 1 and the real problem was with players reacting poorly to it. It's something that's much less of a problem when players have more games between them. Being attacked when you're innocent is something that you have to get used to.
For that reason there's no good way to play newbie games, so don't curtail your aggression just because it didn't work out in this game. If anything, you focused too narrowly from day 2, like the rest of town.
Read as: MAKE THE LURKERS POST. ><><><><><><><><
*cough*
>.>
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Well, it's not just lurkers. I have doubts that anyone read imallinson's filter properly (except funcmode, maybe), otherwise they should have been making a case. Players who weren't drawing attention to themselves were getting ignored.
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On April 21 2012 06:05 jaj22 wrote:
Well, it's not just lurkers. I have doubts that anyone read imallinson's filter properly (except funcmode, maybe), otherwise they should have been making a case. Players who weren't drawing attention to themselves were getting ignored.
He was lurking pretty hard imo. And I had already said his filter was dripping red. He just stepped up a bit in Day 2, and there was so much distraction and already soooooooo many other targets.
It was a tough game all around, to both obs and play.
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On April 21 2012 06:05 jaj22 wrote:
Well, it's not just lurkers. I have doubts that anyone read imallinson's filter properly (except funcmode, maybe), otherwise they should have been making a case. Players who weren't drawing attention to themselves were getting ignored.
I made a real exercise of going back and rereading everybody's filter everyday. But I am not afraid to admit that I find reading people's alignment hard. Especially not when the number of eople with scummy tendencies is as high as in this game.
The only two I got a good town read on were Arctic and vK. I found KB's D1 acceptable and his D2 list dropped him off my scumdar. Imallison was always on the edge of my scumdar, as was yomi. The problem I have is to disti fuish between unintentionally bad logic and willfully bad logic. That really screwed me up on willz and funcmode, and until i figured out xata, him as well. Dittert I wrote off as newbie town halfway through D2, because his behaviour was easier to explain way.
How can I improve tat?
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Wow, reading through the obschat I must really have fucked it up with that 25% bullshit. I feel so stupid. Oh well, maybe this will teach me to trust myself more. It's hard for me to take solid stances on stuff. I can't get over the possibility of being completely wrong.
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By the way, does anyone know when the next newbie game will be hosted? I may be able to join, since it turns out that maybe I won't need to take that extra course after all... School bureaucracy is a pain.
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On April 22 2012 02:06 Acrofales wrote:
The only two I got a good town read on were Arctic and vK. I found KB's D1 acceptable and his D2 list dropped him off my scumdar. Imallison was always on the edge of my scumdar, as was yomi. The problem I have is to disti fuish between unintentionally bad logic and willfully bad logic. That really screwed me up on willz and funcmode, and until i figured out xata, him as well. Dittert I wrote off as newbie town halfway through D2, because his behaviour was easier to explain way.
Yomi's lack of interest in helping town was rather disguised by that from town players. He hardly stood out from Willz and Dittert during day 2, so lynching him may have been tough and a case would have looked reheated.
KB was tough to pin down. He should have been called out on his sheeping, but as Dittert said, it was next to impossible to make a decent case on him. Even if you'd lynched him on day 3, there was little evidence of his agenda in his day 1 & 2 posting.
Imallinson was the gateway scum, IMO. There wasn't much wrong with his posts individually, or his level of contribution, but there were numerous unexplained inconsistencies in his actions, opinions and personality over time that strongly suggested scum agenda. The best case is one that uses scum's own words against them. It's a lot more effective to hold someone to their standards than your own.
As one example of many, check out imallinson's early defence of Yomi:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=14320690
Now, this is a bad post anyway because he's defending scummy behaviour, but you can reason that there's nothing wrong with one player defending another because they think there's a misunderstanding. That's fine. I have a habit of doing that myself. The problem here is that imallinson never does it again all game. That's a personality inconsistency.
That's one of the weaker examples, but you get the idea. I listed another five or so somewhere in the ObsQT.
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@vonKlaust: Yeah, you can't be too afraid of being wrong. Your logic looked good but your play lacked aggression. Don't wait until you're sure that someone's scum before you push them. If you can make a case, get it out there and see how people respond. You can always change your mind.
Note that your lack of strong stances made it far too easy to fit you into scumteams. It felt like cheating though
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EPT
