EPTNewbie Mini Mafia VIII - Page 55
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BroodKingEXE
United States829 Posts
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yomi
United States773 Posts
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Dittert
United States97 Posts
Thanks to Greymist and Snarfs for hosting. Thanks to the Mattchew, Jitsu, and DoYouHas for the coaching advice. If you guys can believe it, I actually did ask for coaching help (at least a little...). I guess my main question is this - I basically felt constantly ignored and written off the entire game. I thought this was hilarious in the obsQT: HiroPro - I feel bad for Dittert. His posting hasn't been great, but he's completely right about people ignoring him. Even when they're 100% sure he's a fake DT, they won't vote for him... What should I have done differently to make you listen to me more, especially since I didn't want to appear 100% uber-town with being DT and everything. I'm equally interested to hear from the people in the game as I am from the coaches/hosts who could give insight from experience. | ||
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yomi
United States773 Posts
Town could prob give you better input. | ||
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Dittert
United States97 Posts
![[image loading]](http://www.jondittert.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/DT-Meme.jpg) | ||
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ArcticFox
United States1092 Posts
On April 20 2012 13:02 Dittert wrote: GG. Thanks to Greymist and Snarfs for hosting. Thanks to the Mattchew, Jitsu, and DoYouHas for the coaching advice. If you guys can believe it, I actually did ask for coaching help (at least a little...). I guess my main question is this - I basically felt constantly ignored and written off the entire game. I thought this was hilarious in the obsQT: HiroPro - I feel bad for Dittert. His posting hasn't been great, but he's completely right about people ignoring him. Even when they're 100% sure he's a fake DT, they won't vote for him... What should I have done differently to make you listen to me more, especially since I didn't want to appear 100% uber-town with being DT and everything. I'm equally interested to hear from the people in the game as I am from the coaches/hosts who could give insight from experience. Specifically I'll tell you this, for at least when I was alive -- I had you pegged as a first time town player, making some off the wall suggestions and your town reads were really all over the place. But where I, personally, switched off and stopped listening to you was when you were in dire straits, arguing directly with willz and shitting up the thread, and after I asked you to stop it and seriously give me your reads, you fired that Princess Bride line at me, and promptly logged off without giving any info after that. If you're trying to come off as a helpful town, that was a serious fuck-up that made me completely stop listening to anything you said until your DT claim. The self-deprication on Day 2 where "nobody listens to dumb ol' Dittert" did you no favors of gaining town cred. Know what gains you town cred? Scumhunting, of which, due to either your work schedule or just frustration with the game over being called a scrub for 3 straight days, completely came to a halt. The only things that give off town cred are straight, decisive, logical cases (usually well-articulated helps). Hiro was doing it to some degree, and was really on the right track, but he lurked just a *little* bit too much, which got him lynched (I would have saved you Hiro! I knew you were blue! <3). That's why Acro, Xatalos, and I gained so much town cred, which was stripped from Xatalos as soon as people started pointing out how so many of his cases were logically flawed. The best advice I can give is go to our thread (or any Mafia thread running) and see who people in general are sheeping behind, or gravitating toward. Those are the styles of posts that give off a "oh yea, this guy is DEFINITELY town" vibe that makes people trust them. Petty arguments and off-handed remarks are at best going to make people stop listening to you, and at worst make them lynch you. Also, I have to ask -- why why WHY in God's name did you vote someone else after a red check on KB? Your rep in town was already shot, and that little maneuver I believe is a big reason why Town had such a hard time believing you were actually DT. | ||
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Dittert
United States97 Posts
On April 20 2012 13:20 ArcticFox wrote: Specifically I'll tell you this, for at least when I was alive -- I had you pegged as a first time town player, making some off the wall suggestions and your town reads were really all over the place. But where I, personally, switched off and stopped listening to you was when you were in dire straits, arguing directly with willz and shitting up the thread, and after I asked you to stop it and seriously give me your reads, you fired that Princess Bride line at me, and promptly logged off without giving any info after that. If you're trying to come off as a helpful town, that was a serious fuck-up that made me completely stop listening to anything you said until your DT claim. Well, I have to disagree with you a little bit here about a couple of points. First, I don't think you can say that I was "shitting up the thread" at any point, especially considering I only have something like 3 pages worth of posts. I think I posted the least of anyone (or at least anyone who made it to the end), yet I get the strong sensation that everyone constantly thought I was "shitting up the thread." How does this happen??? Second, I was seriously giving you my reads. I thought Willz and Yomi were scum, and as it turns out, I was 1.5/2 (even the obsQT gave Willz credit for being the 4th scum). I didn't see the point in your "please please PLEASE go look up WIFOM," other than just trying to antagonize me, and I was already pretty antagonized by that point. You can essentially claim WIFOM for anything anybody ever says (or at least we did in this game), and you can't really even sign up for a game of mafia without knowing what that means. What was your point in that comment? Also, I thought that joke was just too good to pass up. The self-deprication on Day 2 where "nobody listens to dumb ol' Dittert" did you no favors of gaining town cred. Know what gains you town cred? Scumhunting, of which, due to either your work schedule or just frustration with the game over being called a scrub for 3 straight days, completely came to a halt. The only things that give off town cred are straight, decisive, logical cases (usually well-articulated helps). Hiro was doing it to some degree, and was really on the right track, but he lurked just a *little* bit too much, which got him lynched (I would have saved you Hiro! I knew you were blue! <3). That's why Acro, Xatalos, and I gained so much town cred, which was stripped from Xatalos as soon as people started pointing out how so many of his cases were logically flawed. Two points. First, like I mentioned in the DT claim, my N2 posts were deliberately designed to keep my town cred low, so I would survive to keep making DT checks. I guess I did that a little too well. I thought the logic of my DT argument would prevail, but I was mistaken. Second, I don't know how much stock to put into town cred. You had a bunch of it and got shot N1. Acro had a bunch of it, led us to a mislynch on D2, then got shot on N2. KB had a lot of it too, but he was fricking mafia!!! I guess I'm wondering what's the point of town cred when it didn't seem to do any good in this game (and actually cost us the game). Also, I have to ask -- why why WHY in God's name did you vote someone else after a red check on KB? Your rep in town was already shot, and that little maneuver I believe is a big reason why Town had such a hard time believing you were actually DT. That was probably my biggest mistake. I didn't want to DT claim right off the bat, as I wanted the discussion to get started first. I correctly predicted the total shitstorm the thread would devolve into after my claim. I failed to see that Willz would automatically start a Willz v Xatalos war, however, based purely on OMGUS if nothing else. I should have just waited around, but no one seemed like they were posting. In hindsight, I should have posted my claim earlier, especially since I knew I would not be around for the final 3 hours of the voting. Perhaps I could have somehow convinced people I was right. | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
Your actions confused me for a DT because: A) you tunneled me most of the game but never checked my alignment B) You did nothing D2 except martyr yourself, also something that would greatly hurt town if we successfully lynched you. C) As Arctic stated, you voted Xatalos (supporting me after you tunneled me all game) showing a 180 degree switch in your voting pattern and behavior. If you actually voted me initially and then changed your mind, I would have been more inclined to believe you (since you were willing to vote Yomi D1 along with the rest of us) I made the logic leap to Xatalos/you/imallinson being on the same team because I could not understand why you would change your vote and then come in and make a DT check. I played terribly too, don't take this as some sort of I am better than you kind of explanation, but i'm explaining my reactions at the time to your behavior. In hindsight I pretty much sort of agree with how you played, I even pretty much said you were a newb town to me for the way you played, which is both good for deflecting attention but also kills your town cred. No one was willing to believe you (until Xatalos at the end) because you never commented on the general state of discussion very much (the same mistake I made) Edit: Also you tunneling me so hard (without even checking my alignment D1) led to my downfall/acting more scummy or at least set up the chain of events. It was frustrating for me to watch you stick on me without trying to look for anyone else (except you did so secretly because of DT, so I guess it explains it) but when asked for my teammates you made the jump to Arctic/yomi, and DT checked Arctic of all people for your N1 action. People were attacking me for consistently defending you for no basis (since you weren't contributing as much as the others). One of the explanations for this sort of defense is from a true Mafia knowing who is really town and choosing a town to buddy to make them feel better. I would hope you could see that a Mafia really wouldn't go as far as I did to link us publicly, especially considering you were DT. I would have assumed you would just check me N1 to see what my alignment really was and to actually help me push reads. Don't forget, I was townie to most peoples mind D1 until I started rabidly defending you without basis. | ||
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vonKlaust
Sweden158 Posts
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vonKlaust
Sweden158 Posts
I think I could be more excited to reread this shit than I was playing it. | ||
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Xatalos
Finland9675 Posts
On April 20 2012 14:42 willz22912 wrote: @ Dittert Your actions confused me for a DT because: A) you tunneled me most of the game but never checked my alignment B) You did nothing D2 except martyr yourself, also something that would greatly hurt town if we successfully lynched you. C) As Arctic stated, you voted Xatalos (supporting me after you tunneled me all game) showing a 180 degree switch in your voting pattern and behavior. If you actually voted me initially and then changed your mind, I would have been more inclined to believe you (since you were willing to vote Yomi D1 along with the rest of us) I made the logic leap to Xatalos/you/imallinson being on the same team because I could not understand why you would change your vote and then come in and make a DT check. I played terribly too, don't take this as some sort of I am better than you kind of explanation, but i'm explaining my reactions at the time to your behavior. In hindsight I pretty much sort of agree with how you played, I even pretty much said you were a newb town to me for the way you played, which is both good for deflecting attention but also kills your town cred. No one was willing to believe you (until Xatalos at the end) because you never commented on the general state of discussion very much (the same mistake I made) Edit: Also you tunneling me so hard (without even checking my alignment D1) led to my downfall/acting more scummy or at least set up the chain of events. It was frustrating for me to watch you stick on me without trying to look for anyone else (except you did so secretly because of DT, so I guess it explains it) but when asked for my teammates you made the jump to Arctic/yomi, and DT checked Arctic of all people for your N1 action. People were attacking me for consistently defending you for no basis (since you weren't contributing as much as the others). One of the explanations for this sort of defense is from a true Mafia knowing who is really town and choosing a town to buddy to make them feel better. I would hope you could see that a Mafia really wouldn't go as far as I did to link us publicly, especially considering you were DT. I would have assumed you would just check me N1 to see what my alignment really was and to actually help me push reads. Don't forget, I was townie to most peoples mind D1 until I started rabidly defending you without basis. It wouldn't have really made much sense for Dittert to check you... 1) You were a main suspect for Day 1, thus likely framed 2) He was certain you were Mafia anyway, thus making it more useful to check someone he was "on the fence" about (although ArcticFox was a pretty bad choice) Actually, I thought my initial Mafia reads had failed hard, but I was pretty well along the right track on Day 1!! I made cases against ArcticFox, vonKlaust, imallinson and yomi - meaning 2/3 of the Mafia team without much information to use yet, and nobody else suspected KharadBanar either... And I dropped my suspicions against ArcticFox and vonKlaust before long, but thought yomi was certain Mafia for a really long time and had a small suspicion for imallinson all game. Meaning that if yomi had gotten lynched as planned, I would have probably gone after imallinson next and KharadBanar might have slipped up his pro-town appearance under such pressure. Oh well, not too useful to worry about spilt milk  | ||
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Xatalos
Finland9675 Posts
 They all appeared so Mafia-like (in my eyes) that it clouded my judgement pretty hard... Although I also, myself, am to blame for causing confusion and being set to lynch so often... | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18287 Posts
However, the happenings after the DT claim are really mindboggling. Sure, there are all kinds of accusations flying around, but you have a DT claim. The logic here is really clear: at this point in the game, the only people claiming DT would be, either the DT, or mafia. You decide which and lynch either his redchecked target, or him, himself. The next important thing that happens is this post by KB, in which his entire defense is an admission of guilt: He LITERALLY says that Dittert's roleclaim makes no sense as a fake claim. If it is not a fakeclaim, it is a real claim and Dittert redchecked KB. At that point you can rightfully question why the hell he would check KB, but it doesn't really matter why: he did and got a red check. A framer on KB was extremely unlikely... and looking over his filter you can see some of the scumtraits: he really did spend the entire game flying under the radar. His lists made sense, but they just sheeped town consensus. @Dittert: appearing untownie is all very well for avoiding a nightkill, but you really want to appear townie, so people believe your DT claim too. I liked the breadcrumb (and no, I didn't pick up on it, because it's really not doable to analyse everybody's posts in all the possible ways of breadcrumbing... additionally as town that is not what you should focus on  ). What shat up the thread were your rants gainst town at night. Don't do that. Not as town, nor as scum. It's just a really bad thing to do. What you want to do is win the game, not call your teammates idiots. Especially after you were afk yourself for the entire ordeal.@Willz: unfortunately you really were the fourth scum Your utter lack of suspicion of KB buddying you hard was what convinced me you were scum, even though quite a lot of the observerQT thought you were town. If KB had gotten lynched, you would've looked really bad. You were in a unique position to figure this out. You knew you were town and that one of KB and Dittert was scum. You push for a Xatalos lynch (why is still beyond me) and KB is INSTANTLY buddying you hard. This was super suspicious behaviour and should really have sent you into an alarm state: if KB was really town, then he should be pushing HARD on a Dittert lynch, but instead he wants to buddy you and lynch Xatalos. Why? Especially since before the DT claim, he had been leaning more towards lynching you (in a stand-offish manner), and nothing in the outfall of the DT claim had made Xata or you more suspect than you already were (you both, unfortunately, used similarly bad logic).@scum: yeah, my D2 analysis was actually not nearly as bad as I thought after the complete mislynch on Hiro. I just latched onto the wrong person. I later thought my analysis on voteswitching between two townies was probably a false assumption, but never got to correct my analysis for it (would've put KB back on the radar). You made a good call killing me, I am quite confident I would've logicked my way into a KB vote. But who knows what kind of pressure I would've been under if I hadn't gotten killed. @Xata: you played GoT mafia with me. You went through Risen's DT claim with me. You should really have remembered how DT claims work. Also: you post too much. ArcticFox put it best here, and hilarious as it was with KB being scum and all, he actually tried to help you with this. @vonKlaust: such a shame. You were SOOOO close to figuring out why Dittert's DT claim had to be real, yet you got distracted by all the waffling If only someone had had more faith in "crazy ole dittert".For cop and counter-cop claims, take a look at the logic in the "I'm a cop, you idiot" game! The game was a good learning experience. Town is super-much-harder to play than mafia. Reading people is really hard (and you don't have to worry about that as mafia ). Also, I have now gotten shot in N1 and N2 in the two games I've played as town... and apparently the only reason I didn't get shot in N1 here is because of fear of a medic. Not sure that's a good or a bad thing. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18287 Posts
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Acrofales
Spain18287 Posts
I understood not wanting to vote for KB yet and giving yourself time to make a proper case, but you could have tried asking for people's opinions on KB. Saying you are starting to have some doubts about his townieness, because he seemed to just sheep people's opinions. Steer the discussion towards him, rather than Xatalos/Willz. | ||
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Xatalos
Finland9675 Posts
Also, it's GOOD you're shot early as town. It means the Mafia fear you. And btw, I saved your life by directing the Doc to you For good old times' sake, haha  I think it was a good play, I don't know why HiroPro was convinced I was Mafia because of that... What do you think about that? | ||
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syllogism
Finland5948 Posts
For instance this Okay, so if you believe I'm DT, why the hell did I investigate KB, who everyone thought was 99% town? Well, like the first night, I was convinced I had 2 of the 3 mafia figured out: Acro and Xat. Not only did they "save" Xat with the Hiro vote, but they were also spamming up the thread all N2. Once again, I went hunting for the third mafia member. It is extremely difficult to believe he was so sure of those two being mafia that he didn't even bother checking either and just went looking for the third member. Furthermore, then he said this That left KharadBanar, vonKlaust, and iamallinson. To be honest, I wouldn't be 100% surprised if all three turned up as our mafia team. So I suppose he wasn't all that convinced that acro/xat were mafia after all This is all you should have said In the end, I just went on a hunch and investigated KharadBanar. Retroactively attempting to falsely justify your actions will just make your story seem unbelievable and thus scummy | ||
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syllogism
Finland5948 Posts
iamallinson does make at least one point though. Why did I vote Xatalos if I know KB is mafia? I'm not sure if that was the right play or not, but I needed to get discussion going on someone other than Willz, if only so the town could see people's D3 reactions. I was afraid everyone would think "Acro thought Willz was the most likely scum player, and Acro was the best town player, so let's just lynch Willz and be done with it." Willz making a case back against Xat could just be seen as him trying to save himself or OMGUS. I wanted to make a case against KB without DT claiming, but that's really hard to do from his filter. Not because he's so pro-town, but rather because his filter is so empty. Sure, he's got 4 pages of posts, but a lot of them are things like "lol, ninja'd." His voting record consists of almost entirely bandwagon votes on townies, but that doesn't look so out of place in this game - especially since most everyone else jumped on the bandwagon D1 and D2 as well. You are the DT, you have a red check in lylo and you do not vote for your red check or even attempt to make a case against him. The only discussion that needs to be had is related to you and your check. | ||
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Xatalos
Finland9675 Posts
On April 20 2012 18:34 syllogism wrote: Also this You are the DT, you have a red check in lylo and you do not vote for your red check or even attempt to make a case against him. The only discussion that needs to be had is related to you and your check. Indeed. That's partly why I didn't believe him at first (the other reason being his unhelpful filter and attitude). | ||
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KharadBanar
Austria463 Posts
On April 20 2012 17:21 Acrofales wrote: The happenings after the DT claim are really mindboggling. Sure, there are all kinds of accusations flying around, but you have a DT claim. The logic here is really clear: at this point in the game, the only people claiming DT would be, either the DT, or mafia. You decide which and lynch either his redchecked target, or him, himself. The next important thing that happens is this post by KB, in which his entire defense is an admission of guilt: He LITERALLY says that Dittert's roleclaim makes no sense as a fake claim. If you just speak loud enough, people will believe you. | ||
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