EPTI need to stop posting before I've had my coffee.
Newbie Mini Mafia VIII - Page 18
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ArcticFox
United States1092 Posts
I need to stop posting before I've had my coffee. | ||
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Dittert
United States97 Posts
##Vote: willz22912 Yay! Now that my case against willz seems to be making more sense to people, I think we might actually be able to lynch him. Further evidence damning willz (in my eyes, at least): 1. He responds to my accusation of him with evidence... no, wait. Not evidence, just a list of questions. On April 13 2012 11:02 willz22912 wrote: @ Dittert. I'm going to go over everything you said and respond to it. 1. I'm not asking you to quit your job, I understand RL concerns will always take importance over a forum game. I am only suspicious in your eyes, you even say yourself that you probably won't get the vote through on me, because I'm "Ralph Nader" ;p 2. You've successfully solved the puzzle in 1 day? My god it was ArcticFox, Yomi, and willz22912 the whole time?! Really, based on what? 3.You have already stated you agree you are playing poorly as town, why should fellow town give your case any credibility? Why should we believe you over me? I have defended you because I think you have been misguided, and I believe that you are really town, do you really think that everyone who voted you initially had no cause and that they were all wrong for thinking your actions suspicious? 4. Okay, so I attacked you first over your RNG lynch proposal. That is indeed a lie by him, is that enough to justify lynching him in your eyes? 5. KB is at the top of your list because he actively sought out the alignment of HiroPro by making a really terrible pressure-vote that was pretty much ignored by everyone and he himself stated it didn't do anything? 6. If you want to keep your town read to yourself fine, but doing so for fear of endangering his life is a really poor reason and anti-town. Town is supposed to be transparent, if you hide your opinion of this person now, why should the town believe you when you claim he was your top town read the whole time? This part goes out to everyone. Continue to be transparent with your scum reads, and ignore your mortality. Hiding things for fear of your death D1? It takes until Night1 for Mafia to kill someone, and it will still be only 1 person at a time. I'm already pretty sure I'm getting taken out first because I'm the most active, so I'm not hesitating in posting what I need to. Basically every sentence in that post is a question. He even ends some of the ones that aren't questions with question marks. He can't defend himself with facts or statements because he hasn't really made any. The only thing he has to keep him from the gallows is smoke and mirrors. 2. Though he has participated a lot, he has not really accused anyone of anything (with a nod to the token aggression towards iamallinson). I think he's waiting until the very end to make any concrete statement so he can judge what stance will be most beneficial to scum. By taking my vote off yomi, I do not think yomi is town. I'd just rather lynch willz because he's obviously the leader. We don't need him in here confusing the town anymore. | ||
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vonKlaust
Sweden158 Posts
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Acrofales
Spain17848 Posts
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Xatalos
Finland9673 Posts
I think this is a stronger case than any of my previous three cases (ArcticFox, vonKlaust, imallinson) so I'm willing to vote for him instead of vonKlaust. I don't think vonKlaust looks as townie as you seem to think, however, and I'm still leaning on him being Mafia. I'm mostly bothered by his persistent focus on me without providing ANY kind of a case or argument (even HiroPro made a weak case against me, which is better than what vonKlaust has been doing so far). ##Unvote ##Vote: willz22912 I guess trumpetarn is going to get himself modkilled soon, so our resident hardcore lurker will be yomi after that. yomi, you promised to start contributing before the deadline, and there are only 8(?) hours left now. Time's running out for you - if Willz still manages to convince us, you are a very good lynch alternative. I don't feel Dittert is very suspicious anymore, and right now I would rather lynch you than vonKlaust. | ||
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vonKlaust
Sweden158 Posts
I said you were my prime suspect, but I was and am far from sure that you are mafia. I don't agree with that I have had a persistant focus on you. I still maintain the stance that you could be mafia and I think that the chances for you being mafia is higher than others in the thread, but for now I think that Willz and Hiro are far safer bets. This is what I wrote about you when asked to pick top scum candidate: I'm unsure about Xatalos. While he have done a couple of potential scumslips he feels a tad to vocal for a mafia member. And those slips can just have been the result of bad reasoning, even though I doubt it. This is my reasoning for writing that: + Show Spoiler + On April 13 2012 04:06 vonKlaust wrote: This is fallacious. Of course it's better for the crooks to try to put forward some solid evidence together with joining a lynch than to just, as you put it, sheepishly vote once a very easy target has been found. Not only does it make the chances of the target actually getting lynched, but it also makes them look towny. I can accept that you would rather focus at ArticFox, but this explanation is NOT sufficient for dropping your suspicions on Iamallison To me this looks like a potential scum slip. On April 13 2012 04:46 vonKlaust wrote: I went back to research Xatalos filter after this incident: + Show Spoiler + http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=14321137 And found this piece of text. This strikes me as pretty awkward. Not only is he trying to justify his case by saying that it generated discussion, but he also proposes to push another lynch target, not because he thinks that ArticFox is a bad lynch, but because "It would make it too easy for Mafia to blend in". Of course pushing for lynches generates discussion, but that does not justify pushing bad lynches. Of course you can use votes to pressure, but your vote against ArticFox don't really come across as a pressure vote to me. Also it feels a bit wierd that you seem so decisive while still saying stuff like "By no means is ArticFox a must-lynch for me" and "I'm all for pushing another lynch target". Especially when you earlier in the game wrote stuff like: It feels like you're trying to get out of the lynch-train you created in the first place, while still maintaining ArticFox as a prime suspect. As far as I can tell, you didn't really ever back down from your claims. You just went defensive when people started to criticize your case. | ||
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GreYMisT
United States6736 Posts
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Snarfs
Canada1006 Posts
willz22912 (5): Acrofales, KharadBanar, vonKlaust, Dittert, Xatalos Dittert (1): yomi trumpetarm (1): imallinson yomi (1): ArcticFox Not voting: trumpetarn, BroodKingEXE, HiroPro, willz22912 The day ends in about 7.5 Hours! Remember that voting is mandatory! | ||
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BroodKingEXE
United States829 Posts
Vote: willz22912 @AFox the reason I said that was to point out the hippocracy of the situation. He said himself we shouldn't be wasting time, so why did he need to engage dittert (as he said dittert had no case against him). He fell for the bait admitting that the whole thing was trivial, which leads me to believe he is a scum who won't stand by their values. | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
Since the vote is already 5 against me, I'll lay out my case in my next post and my top mafia reads. If that doesn't sway your vote, fine, but I will have done the best I can to help town before my death, and I now understand that was I a bit too aggressive. | ||
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Xatalos
Finland9673 Posts
On April 13 2012 23:52 vonKlaust wrote: @Xatalos I said you were my prime suspect, but I was and am far from sure that you are mafia. I don't agree with that I have had a persistant focus on you. I still maintain the stance that you could be mafia and I think that the chances for you being mafia is higher than others in the thread, but for now I think that Willz and Hiro are far safer bets. This is what I wrote about you when asked to pick top scum candidate: This is my reasoning for writing that: + Show Spoiler + On April 13 2012 04:06 vonKlaust wrote: This is fallacious. Of course it's better for the crooks to try to put forward some solid evidence together with joining a lynch than to just, as you put it, sheepishly vote once a very easy target has been found. Not only does it make the chances of the target actually getting lynched, but it also makes them look towny. I can accept that you would rather focus at ArticFox, but this explanation is NOT sufficient for dropping your suspicions on Iamallison To me this looks like a potential scum slip. On April 13 2012 04:46 vonKlaust wrote: I went back to research Xatalos filter after this incident: + Show Spoiler + http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=14321137 And found this piece of text. This strikes me as pretty awkward. Not only is he trying to justify his case by saying that it generated discussion, but he also proposes to push another lynch target, not because he thinks that ArticFox is a bad lynch, but because "It would make it too easy for Mafia to blend in". Of course pushing for lynches generates discussion, but that does not justify pushing bad lynches. Of course you can use votes to pressure, but your vote against ArticFox don't really come across as a pressure vote to me. Also it feels a bit wierd that you seem so decisive while still saying stuff like "By no means is ArticFox a must-lynch for me" and "I'm all for pushing another lynch target". Especially when you earlier in the game wrote stuff like: It feels like you're trying to get out of the lynch-train you created in the first place, while still maintaining ArticFox as a prime suspect. As far as I can tell, you didn't really ever back down from your claims. You just went defensive when people started to criticize your case. Hmm. You actually HAD some sort of a case against me. Your remarks are just so vague and uncertain that I haven't taken your observations seriously enough. I didn't say, at any point, that I had a town read on imallinson... I just said my suspicions of him "dropped a bit" after he made some valid additional points about ArcticFox and voted for him. I didn't think Mafia would so eagerly jump on the first possibility of a bandwagon - from what I've seen, Mafia usually wait until lynching someone gathers strong enough support and then blend in with the mass of voters. I'm not saying Mafia have to play passive and/or leave the initiative for town, but imallinson's fast agreement with my vote didn't seem very Mafia-like to me (too reckless and careless - generally Mafia are cautious and avoid the spotlight). I agree that I was too convinced by my own case, and I should have shifted my attention away from ArcticFox sooner. I think a reason for that might be that in my previous game (AGOT) there was a pretty aggressive town player named Mattchew, who found out 75% (3/4) of the Mafia team in a matter of hours, but he had too little faith in himself and followed the general opinion instead of his own opinion. If he had pushed even one of us during the first day, he might have won the game for town. I think that's the main reason why I didn't want to give up on my case on ArcticFox so fast, but in the end, it's not useful to tunnel so hard on one person if the general opinion has already shifted against my case. I don't consider ArcticFox a good lynch anymore even myself. By the way, I would be much more suspicious of YOU jumping for the ArcticFox bandwagon than imallinson. imallinson at least added content to my case and was pretty open and fearless about his support for my case. You, on the other hand, tried your very best to avoid responsibility. You said just that it "carried some truth" without adding anything of your own to it (other than your hesitant support for the case). Care to explain this? | ||
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Xatalos
Finland9673 Posts
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BroodKingEXE
United States829 Posts
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vonKlaust
Sweden158 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + On April 12 2012 21:36 vonKlaust wrote: Ok, I must disappointedly admit that I feel pretty lost. So far I think most cases have felt a bit rushed, but I guess that could be because I'm simply not used to this kind of speculative reasoning. I do however think that Xatalos case on ArticFox seems to carry some truth. If I would have to vote right now, I would probably go with this. + Show Spoiler + On April 12 2012 15:57 Xatalos wrote: /confirm I strongly disagree with people saying this discussion has been "idle chat" or "pointless discussion". There's only so much you can do 7 hours into the game, but what I've got from these posts has been VERY useful: in fact, after reading all the posts in one go, I'm already ready to cast a vote (not just a fake pressure like KharadBanar). The person I want to lynch the most right now is: ArcticFox. Here is what I got from his filter so far: On the surface this looks like friendly advice to fellow townies, but this is EXACTLY the kind of posting I did on A Game of Thrones Mafia as a Mafia Framer. His attitude seems like he wants to appear useful, but he doesn't really say anything useful - the opposite of actual townies who want to be useful, but don't care as much about their appearance. The overall feel I get from this post is "please don't lynch me, I'm being useful!" First of all: why discuss about blue roles at all? This is the same mistake I did in A Game of Thrones Mafia - we kept talking about blue roles in the Mafia chat, so subconsciously I mentioned possibilities about the blue roles even in the normal thread. And what do you mean with "idle chat is not good"? So far this "idle chat" has been very useful (certainly much more useful than silence or the trolling/flaming we had in A Game of Thrones Mafia...). Also, you keep mentioning policies, which is something Mafia loves to do - you can appear somewhat useful without actually contributing anything. There he goes again, talking about blue roles. It's too bad it probably ends now after I mention this, but I would have wanted to see how many times he can talk about blue roles / blue reads during the game, since this is the second time already in only 7 hours... And if you think Dittert is Mafia, why not vote for him or even put any real pressure on him? It looks like you just want to fake pressure an obvious target (a suspiciously acting townie) or put some distance between yourself and a fellow Mafia (if he gets lynched, you can claim you "pushed for his lynch" all along). You look like you want to make a policy lynch, since you keep talking about policies, but still try to appear as if you "want" to lynch a Mafia player (if something too obvious comes along and you have to bus your teammate). I got a pretty solid Mafia read already in just a matter of hours, so this discussion is definitely not "useless"... ##Vote: ArcticFox Other people I'm going to keep a close watch on: Dittert, yomi. Neither have contributed to the thread, but still tried to appear "active" enough to avoid being lynched. yomi even had a strange OMGUS reaction to BroodKingEXE after being suspected, without ANYTHING to back up his counter-suspicion. Also, this: Exactly the same kind of tactic I employed in A Game of Thrones Mafia... You want to apologize for your mistakes and noobish play (why would a townie ever need the urge to make a public apology?!) to make people think of you as a noob townie. I can feel the fear and hesitation pouring from this post. I would also want to hear your opinion, Acrofales. You were VERY active and talkative in A Game of Thrones Mafia, but so far you have been inactive. What do you think about my case on ArcticFox? Do you have your own Mafia reads that I might have missed? Both the blue-talk and the policy lynching-talk seems a bit odd. I guess you could agrue that ArticFox could be blue himself, but it doesn't strike me as very natural behaviour to talk so much about blues if you are one yourself since you would desperately want to stay hidden. I'm not quite as confident about this as Xatalos seems to be, but to me this seems to be the best analysis so far. Some people have been critical towards Dittert and his RNG-talk. To me he comes across more as a nervous newbie(no offence, I'm pretty much a nervous newbie myself!) than scum. I think he's sincere about the claim that he was actually after sparking discussion rather than actually pushing for RNGing. My explanation is simply: I thought it carried some truth, so I wrote "I think it carries some truth". Looking back, I do agree that it's pretty much too vague to actually be a usefull post. I just wrote what I was thinking. Maybe I should have kept those thoughts to myself since I really didn't add anything. | ||
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vonKlaust
Sweden158 Posts
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Xatalos
Finland9673 Posts
On April 14 2012 01:29 vonKlaust wrote: I'll just quote the post I made about it: + Show Spoiler + On April 12 2012 21:36 vonKlaust wrote: Ok, I must disappointedly admit that I feel pretty lost. So far I think most cases have felt a bit rushed, but I guess that could be because I'm simply not used to this kind of speculative reasoning. I do however think that Xatalos case on ArticFox seems to carry some truth. If I would have to vote right now, I would probably go with this. + Show Spoiler + On April 12 2012 15:57 Xatalos wrote: /confirm I strongly disagree with people saying this discussion has been "idle chat" or "pointless discussion". There's only so much you can do 7 hours into the game, but what I've got from these posts has been VERY useful: in fact, after reading all the posts in one go, I'm already ready to cast a vote (not just a fake pressure like KharadBanar). The person I want to lynch the most right now is: ArcticFox. Here is what I got from his filter so far: On the surface this looks like friendly advice to fellow townies, but this is EXACTLY the kind of posting I did on A Game of Thrones Mafia as a Mafia Framer. His attitude seems like he wants to appear useful, but he doesn't really say anything useful - the opposite of actual townies who want to be useful, but don't care as much about their appearance. The overall feel I get from this post is "please don't lynch me, I'm being useful!" First of all: why discuss about blue roles at all? This is the same mistake I did in A Game of Thrones Mafia - we kept talking about blue roles in the Mafia chat, so subconsciously I mentioned possibilities about the blue roles even in the normal thread. And what do you mean with "idle chat is not good"? So far this "idle chat" has been very useful (certainly much more useful than silence or the trolling/flaming we had in A Game of Thrones Mafia...). Also, you keep mentioning policies, which is something Mafia loves to do - you can appear somewhat useful without actually contributing anything. There he goes again, talking about blue roles. It's too bad it probably ends now after I mention this, but I would have wanted to see how many times he can talk about blue roles / blue reads during the game, since this is the second time already in only 7 hours... And if you think Dittert is Mafia, why not vote for him or even put any real pressure on him? It looks like you just want to fake pressure an obvious target (a suspiciously acting townie) or put some distance between yourself and a fellow Mafia (if he gets lynched, you can claim you "pushed for his lynch" all along). You look like you want to make a policy lynch, since you keep talking about policies, but still try to appear as if you "want" to lynch a Mafia player (if something too obvious comes along and you have to bus your teammate). I got a pretty solid Mafia read already in just a matter of hours, so this discussion is definitely not "useless"... ##Vote: ArcticFox Other people I'm going to keep a close watch on: Dittert, yomi. Neither have contributed to the thread, but still tried to appear "active" enough to avoid being lynched. yomi even had a strange OMGUS reaction to BroodKingEXE after being suspected, without ANYTHING to back up his counter-suspicion. Also, this: Exactly the same kind of tactic I employed in A Game of Thrones Mafia... You want to apologize for your mistakes and noobish play (why would a townie ever need the urge to make a public apology?!) to make people think of you as a noob townie. I can feel the fear and hesitation pouring from this post. I would also want to hear your opinion, Acrofales. You were VERY active and talkative in A Game of Thrones Mafia, but so far you have been inactive. What do you think about my case on ArcticFox? Do you have your own Mafia reads that I might have missed? Both the blue-talk and the policy lynching-talk seems a bit odd. I guess you could agrue that ArticFox could be blue himself, but it doesn't strike me as very natural behaviour to talk so much about blues if you are one yourself since you would desperately want to stay hidden. I'm not quite as confident about this as Xatalos seems to be, but to me this seems to be the best analysis so far. Some people have been critical towards Dittert and his RNG-talk. To me he comes across more as a nervous newbie(no offence, I'm pretty much a nervous newbie myself!) than scum. I think he's sincere about the claim that he was actually after sparking discussion rather than actually pushing for RNGing. My explanation is simply: I thought it carried some truth, so I wrote "I think it carries some truth". Looking back, I do agree that it's pretty much too vague to actually be a usefull post. I just wrote what I was thinking. Maybe I should have kept those thoughts to myself since I really didn't add anything. Hm..... Okay. So, you admit your own actions have been a bit suspicious so far (or at the very least not good play), but what do you think about my response to your criticisms? | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
I advise everyone to in addition to this case where I point out his most glaring scumminess, take a look at his filter as a whole and see how much contribution he's really done. If you are accusing me of contributing without contributing, then what has he been doing? 1. Initially is suspicious of Dittert here, one of the top targets considering his RNG proposal and how hard it was shut down by myself and ArcticFox: On April 12 2012 11:38 BroodKingEXE wrote: We're all newbies at this game, why duck responsibility for your statement? And the discussion was already rolling why did you feel the need to redirect the topic? Trying to establish yourself as the topic starter after an active discussion was already going on: feels a little scummy to me. 2. Calls for a consolidation of the vote here to narrow down the likely suspects for a lynch so that Mafia have a easier time to hide behind the bandwagon: @The Town: I am kind of worried about the state of the town right now. So far accusations have been flung at everyone in town. This is exactly what the mafia want: us to throw the blame at each other. My suggestion is everyone come up with a vote based on what we have heard in order to consolidate our ideas. This way there will be more pressure on the accused to act. 3. Next, he follows up on his "suspicions" of Dittert by posting this: I'm going to vote for Dittert. So far his only attempt at an accusation is wiliz. He states that wiliz may be lurking or working. We have far more solid cases than a lurker right now. His second argument makes sense, but he is missing the point. Wiliz thinks Dittert is a bad townie, usually bad townies are Mafia. 4. I immediately call BroodKingEXE out for his vote on Dittert and here is his response: On April 13 2012 06:37 BroodKingEXE wrote: @wiliz The problem I have with Dittert is his inactivity, after making an accusation. My vote is by no means confirmed by his inactivity, but its almost halfway through the day and he hasn't put in much effort at all. Hiro has offered nothing substantial as well, bandwagoning on the suspicions of Xatalos. Dittert's claim seems more shaky to me \so I'm going to keep my vote on him. We have to becareful about releasing scumlists though, as they give the mafia can use them to guide their KP. Notice that his reasoning for Dittert is very flimsy, he's willing to change his vote at anytime, but feels like picking on the easiest target with the most suspicion and gives little to no weight to his case. Then take a look at the part I highlighted in red, here he starts arguing against transparency and having town not release scumlists. How is that not anti-town behavior? Releasing scumlists helps us hunt scum, it's as simple as that, information not shared is information not known. Very scummy in my mind. 5. BroodKingEXE lets Dittert off the hook with 1 post! Here: On April 13 2012 10:17 BroodKingEXE wrote: + Show Spoiler + On April 13 2012 09:23 Dittert wrote: Okay, time to post. As for lurking, I was at work, where they expect me to... do work and not play TL mafia. I'll be at work tomorrow too. And Saturday! Just FYI, I will actually miss the voting cut-offs due to work, so don't expect any last-minute shenanigans from me. As for my thoughts, I'm still on the willz22912 kick. He has my ##FoS. Here's what I think went down: He saw my bad play and jumped on it, trying for a mislynch. I have explained already here: + Show Spoiler + On April 12 2012 23:53 Dittert wrote: @Xatalos I think you have a decent case against ArcticFox, and I would feel comfortable voting for him Day 1 (as things stand right now). That being said, I am actually even more suspicious of willz22912. He's lurking now (or sleeping, or at work) after posting a decent number of posts in the first 2 hours of the game. In those posts, he says a couple of things that catch my attention. First, How does that not scream scum? It's not just that he doesn't want a Lynch all Liars policy (which would in theory encourage, or at least allow for, lying), but he dismisses it out of hand. "Don't dwell on liars" is exactly the kind of thing scum would say. Second, we have this gem: Town willing to kill other town? Even a bad townie (or a townie with a bad idea) is still a townie. It seems to me that this is a numbers game, and you should want as many people on your team alive as possible. I think willz22912 saw my bad RNG play as an opportunity to get the town to lynch one of their own, hence all the commotion about it. That ArcticFox immediately joined willz makes me even more suspicious of him (him being AF). After that, yomi enters the discussion: It struck me that he appeared to be jumping on the willz and AFox bandwagon. At this point, I was already suspicious of those two, so yomi siding with them made me suspicious of him as well. Surely though, he couldn't be so dumb as to list out the mafia team right there, could he? Realizing I had no way of figuring that out (maybe it's so dumb is clever, etc.), I let it be. The next post that caught my attention was this one: I think this was a ploy to distance yomi from AF and to increase the distance between AF and myself. Seeing as how at the time there was an "AF might be mafia" sentiment floating through the thread, this was a good way to link me to scum. Note how even though he lists the 1/2/3 mafia as AF/me/hiropro, he doesn't vote for #1, he votes for me. As for willz, I found this post intriguing: Why would you refer to yourself as the top town candidate unless you wanted to reinforce this belief in people's minds? No one is even remotely accusing you of being scum except for crazy ol' Dittert with his RNG ideas. This seems scummy to me. After all that, I'm ready to cast my vote. ##Vote: Yomi First off, this is not even a little bit an OMGUS vote, even though yomi did vote for me. I'm voting for Yomi over willz for several reasons. 1. I don't think anybody else will vote for willz, so essentially a vote for him is like a vote for Ralph Nader. It may be a good idea, but it's a wasted vote. 2. Everyone else seems to think he's town, as far as I can tell. With this being my first game, I admit that my reads may be off. As far as AFox, people have been discussing X's case against him to death, with no real conclusions being drawn. Yomi, on the other hand, has not really posted anything of value. His filter is more or less a repeated cry of "yes, I'm posting valid things! I shouldn't have to explain myself!" His vote is currently for me, which due to my lack of posting, is about the "safest" vote you can make. As for my accusation that Yomi was lying, he did in fact make a statement that can be proved factually false. He had the tools at his disposal to check the facts before he posted. I don't know what else you want to consider "a lie." What you do with that information is up to you. I'm not advocating we policy lynch Yomi because of this "factually incorrect statement." I'm advocating we lynch him because his behavior is consistent with my understanding of scummy behavior. Acrofales asked for my top 3 town reads, so I'll include those as well. 1. KB - His first vote on HiroPro was clearly to try and get a read on HiroPro's alignment. Mafia don't need to get reads on people's alignment, they already have them. He also did not jump on the "Dittert must be scum for his RNG idea" bandwagon. If he was scum, this would have been an ideal opportunity to try and frame an innocent. 2. Brood - He's reasonably active, but it's more like a scattershot than a laser. He's asking questions of everyone with seemingly no real agenda. Even though I think Brood is town, I also think he says some really stupid shit. For example: Really? Your innocence will save you? Tell that to the victims of the Spanish Inquisition or the Salem Witch trials. 3. imallinson - He seems normal? I don't really have a strong inclination for anyone in this third town spot. He asks for KB's read on Hiro, which seems helpful to the town. Okay, discuss! Glad to see you post Dittert. Innocence will save you, a townie will act like a townie and mafia like a mafia. No matter how hard they try the Mafia will always make mistakes, and as long as you are actively speaking we will be able to see the difference. You've put some pretty good information up, so I'm going to take you off. I don't like your comment about an agenda though, as my only agenda should be helping the town. Me asking questions is my way of scumhunting, so I will continue to call out people on what I see. ##Unvote So basically, the whole vote on Dittert was pointless, one post (not even saying what parts of it was "good information") lets him take off the vote? How strong are BroodKingEXE's convictions, how readily is he willing to drop his vote and change it to the most easiest target, currently myself? He calls out Yomi here: On April 13 2012 08:38 BroodKingEXE wrote: @Yomi You vote for dittert. Which means you must make a case against him, or at least declare pressure vote. I started a policy discussion as well, so what makes Dittert more scummy than myself? If you think Artic is defending Dittert(if they are both mafia) I want to know what gives Dittert the lynch today and not tommorrow. Did BroodkingExe in your minds declare a pressure vote, or make a decent case against Dittert? No? Then why is he calling out Yomi for his own hypocrisy? 6. When I defend myself against Dittert's accusation, and tell him to stop because he's not helping. I was admittedly angry because of how relentless he had become in his tunneling of me and took it out on Dittert. BroodkingEXE however, jumps in with this: This whole post reeks of scum to me. "Why are you continuing to waste discussion": well there is no such thing as wasted discussion if it is an accusation. If he thinks you are scum he has the right to that opinion. The opinion of every town member here (except mafia) is important. "I'm not even pushing for your lynch", so the only time we are allowed to challenge you is if you are attacking us? The second paragraph is pretty bad you are flat out telling him to stop talking and that his opinion is worthless, this is very anti-town. It doesn't matter if he can't defend it others will analyze his post and make according conclusions of their own. He says there is no wasted discussion, and every post is important, but he doesn't contribute anything of value except for commenting on my posts against Dittert. But note the red part I highlighted here, What is that sentence supposed to mean? How does he know who is mafia and who is town, and whose opinion is important, does he have the inside knowledge of who's who that only a Mafia would have at this point? You decide. 7. He continues to post comments about my "discussion" with Dittert: On April 13 2012 11:25 BroodKingEXE wrote: @willz You clearly said that his opinion about you didn't matter. You say that you having been defending dittert the whole time. You've only done that once as far as I can see. Even if you were defending dittert he doesn't owe you anything, if he thinks you are scum he can't kiss up to save his own hide. If he is thinking on the wrong track then you need to put him back on the right track. This discussion isn't wasted either if we can prove the alignment of each other that is 2 less people the town have to analyze. I stated that I believed Dittert to be a newbie town who is tunneling me because of a misguided notion that I was trying to mis-lynch him (when did I ever do this, where in the thread did I call on others to vote for Dittert?) Even if I was defending Dittert he doesn't owe me anything, what cause would I have for defending him other than believing he was town, and that town should defend other town? What possible reason could I have as Mafia to defend Dittert? Also note the red part I highlighted again, What is this statement mean as well? How are we supposed to prove the alignment of one another, how am I supposed to change Dittert's opinion of me if he continues to think I am Mafia when I am not? 8. I call BroodKingEXE out on his comments about my posts, and whether or not he has enough spine to actually adhere to a stance: His response is this: On April 13 2012 11:59 BroodKingEXE wrote: @willz at the moment I dont see anything particularly damning about your other posts, but why waste time engaging dittert? If you really think he is a newbie, then he is really no threat to you. We as a town haven't come to a consensus to vote for you. I think that yomi's baseless accusations are still more damning. So for all the posts he's made about me, he doesn't see anything wrong with any of my other posts, but currently thinks Yomi is still more suspicious than me. He was not willing to go out on his own and make a case against me supporting Dittert's accusations, he was willing to just post fluff and seem like he's contributing. 9 Finally, his last post and the vote he makes on me: On April 14 2012 00:54 BroodKingEXE wrote: I have had time to look over the thread and have come up with some more evidence against willz. His posts are scummy in that they shoot down ideas of people. He hasn't analyzed anyones posts based on their content and seems to be denying open discussion based on who he thinks is scum. I have a problem with this as he said he is all for open discussion, yet he is shooting down ideas. He said that he didn't want to waste time discussing useless things, yet he dug in quite hard on trying to defend dittert even though he thought he was a newbie (and thus had no power). Also, in his in own words the discussion with me was wasted. He didn't chose to uphold his own values, in order to engage me( he didn't even state if he thought I was scum or not). Vote: willz22912 @AFox the reason I said that was to point out the hippocracy of the situation. He said himself we shouldn't be wasting time, so why did he need to engage dittert (as he said dittert had no case against him). He fell for the bait admitting that the whole thing was trivial, which leads me to believe he is a scum who won't stand by their values. So now when 4 other people are against me and my lynch is all but assured, he jumps in at the last moment with this? This is plurality vote, 4 should have been enough already, but 5 is all but pointless. Even if you don't change your vote on me, please look at BroodKingEXE for bandwagoning on my lynch with little to no support when I flip town. Posting my rebuttal of all of your accusations now. | ||
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ArcticFox
United States1092 Posts
On April 14 2012 01:23 BroodKingEXE wrote: @artic Yomi is another one of my suspects. He keeps trying to say he has contributed something, but he hasn't talked about who he accused yet. So far his only response is that he has already stated his evidence. A lot of people have been asking him for more evidence, but he hasn't been giving any. This is scummy behavior to me, but willz takes more precedence as he posted more (I want to hear a different response from him before I come to a surefire conclusion). I am not sure about the third member as I don't have any scum reads on the rest of the town, and HIro or Trumpet could very well be mafia. That's the logic jump I have trouble with -- the fact that he's posted more somehow seeming scummier. To me, I feel like the reverse would be true. Right now, willz and yomi seem to be the top 2 lynch candidates, and both strike me as playing scummy. I go back and read through both filters and say to myself, "Can I see mafia posting like this?" and in both cases, there's an inconsistency there that really just screams scum. Then I ask myself the opposite question -- "Can I read this filter and see posting like this if I were town?" For willz filter, as of right now, I can at least talk myself into a case for it. He's asking questions and pointing out flaws, but concealing his own reads. There's a bad reasoning behind it, but I could see a solid line of logic flow between his posts, right up until he got angry at Dittert with no real reasoning (which is really the first time anyone's jumped on him, other than Dittert). For yomi, right now, I can't. There's nothing in yomi's filter but anger, omgus, fluff, and constant repetition of the same point. That's why I can't switch my vote off of him. He's reading a stronger scum than willz right now, and is my primary candidate. However, I'm still eagerly awaiting both of them posting this afternoon. I'm hoping we all get a clearer read from them. | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
Vote: BroodKingEXE | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
On April 13 2012 22:54 Dittert wrote: + Show Spoiler + ##Unvote: yomi ##Vote: willz22912 Yay! Now that my case against willz seems to be making more sense to people, I think we might actually be able to lynch him. Further evidence damning willz (in my eyes, at least): 1. He responds to my accusation of him with evidence... no, wait. Not evidence, just a list of questions. On April 13 2012 11:02 willz22912 wrote: @ Dittert. I'm going to go over everything you said and respond to it. 1. I'm not asking you to quit your job, I understand RL concerns will always take importance over a forum game. I am only suspicious in your eyes, you even say yourself that you probably won't get the vote through on me, because I'm "Ralph Nader" ;p 2. You've successfully solved the puzzle in 1 day? My god it was ArcticFox, Yomi, and willz22912 the whole time?! Really, based on what? 3.You have already stated you agree you are playing poorly as town, why should fellow town give your case any credibility? Why should we believe you over me? I have defended you because I think you have been misguided, and I believe that you are really town, do you really think that everyone who voted you initially had no cause and that they were all wrong for thinking your actions suspicious? 4. Okay, so I attacked you first over your RNG lynch proposal. That is indeed a lie by him, is that enough to justify lynching him in your eyes? 5. KB is at the top of your list because he actively sought out the alignment of HiroPro by making a really terrible pressure-vote that was pretty much ignored by everyone and he himself stated it didn't do anything? 6. If you want to keep your town read to yourself fine, but doing so for fear of endangering his life is a really poor reason and anti-town. Town is supposed to be transparent, if you hide your opinion of this person now, why should the town believe you when you claim he was your top town read the whole time? This part goes out to everyone. Continue to be transparent with your scum reads, and ignore your mortality. Hiding things for fear of your death D1? It takes until Night1 for Mafia to kill someone, and it will still be only 1 person at a time. I'm already pretty sure I'm getting taken out first because I'm the most active, so I'm not hesitating in posting what I need to. Basically every sentence in that post is a question. He even ends some of the ones that aren't questions with question marks. He can't defend himself with facts or statements because he hasn't really made any. The only thing he has to keep him from the gallows is smoke and mirrors. 2. Though he has participated a lot, he has not really accused anyone of anything (with a nod to the token aggression towards iamallinson). I think he's waiting until the very end to make any concrete statement so he can judge what stance will be most beneficial to scum. By taking my vote off yomi, I do not think yomi is town. I'd just rather lynch willz because he's obviously the leader. We don't need him in here confusing the town anymore. I made a rebuttal to you based on your accusations, I also admit I was angry so I rushed this response, but you never responded to this until now. I have asked you questions about why you think I originally intended to push your mis-lynch. I never stated ever that I believe you are anything but a newbie town. What reasoning do I have to defend you other than I believe we are both town and town should defend each other. Yet you ignore all of this and continue to push my lynch, on what grounds? I fail to see where I have given you the impression of my true Mafia behavior. I also admit some of my anger and frustration were that you, in your own words have played poorly as town, this is your first Mafia game ever, yet I'm supposed to let you keep attacking me with no basis, and treat your opinion with as much weight as mine. I have played in Newbie V and to a lesser extent Aperture, this will be my last newbie game, and I have rolled town every single time, and I want to win as town, so I became way more aggressive than I usually am. I am sorry if I have personally offended you with my comments about the time you are able to spend. I get it, you have a job, you can't play this and be as active as other players. That's fine, I still think you're a newbie town who won't let go ( a common mistake) but now you're about to get me lynched and I'm just kind of sad. I did not accuse anyone because I did not believe in their inherent scummy behavior. When I attacked you for your RNG proposal, I just told you to stop because it was anti-town, I did not immediately label you scum and try to drive your lynch. When Xatalos made his case against ArcticFox, I did not label Xatalos scum for trying to make a poor case, I saw that he was tunneling based on his own ideas from GoT. I only called out people who needed calling out and defended people who needed defending. Town defends other town, Mafia tries to bandwagon behind likely lynches and follows the town around. | ||
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