Elite Idiocy - Page 3

Dystisis

Norway713 Posts

March 02 2012 12:58 GMT

#41

I imagine that these people, including Mr Schiff, are intelligent and hard working people. One typically doesn't accidentally run into a mid-six figure salary.

I have no idea why you make this assumption, or actually I do, but let's pretend I do not. It is not founded on any empirical investigations into the matter. It is founded on ideological propaganda, that the system 'works' in favor of those who are best at their fields and deserve it the most. However, research into the matter shows that the major contributing factors to wealth are completely arbitrary variables such as family, contacts and location, along with selfishness (valuing themselves over others). Note that 'work ethic', 'hard work', 'intelligence', 'expertise', 'determination' and so on are completely irrelevant in statistical terms. What were once considered honorable professions requiring unique talent acquired through years of practice are now relegated to the conveyor belts and assembly lines of countries where labor is cheapest.

No wonder you have the richest population of countries basically making huge fortunes off of the misery of other people (they have no qualms about not contributing anything to society but taking wealth that would make nations green with envy). They contribute nothing, their gains are privatized and their losses are socialized.

I'd love to see the American lower class who deny the relativity of suffering justify their hardships to people literally dying of starvation and dehydration. I can't imagine anyone with access to the internet and spare time to read and write a response to a Bloomberg article has any grounds for denying the truth of the relativity of suffering.

There is nothing about suffering in-and-of itself that is relative, however f.ex. the poverty lines of countries can be considered relative for many reasons (for example, social/cultural acceptance of poverty).

If we talk for example about marxists, if they are reasonably bright and non-dogmatic, they would not deny that members of the ruling class can suffer. The psychological or emotional state is irrelevant to their views. The classes are not defined by use of the words "suffering", "privilege" or similar, which are popular to use today. They are defined through their relationship with means of production, and perhaps more explicitly whether they rent out their own labor for survival, or whether they rent other's labor for profit. It is a generalized concept of society.

WhiteDog

France8650 Posts

March 02 2012 13:40 GMT

#42

On March 02 2012 14:47 thedeadhaji wrote:

Show nested quote +

Coincidentally, I had a related discussion with a friend on Sunday, even before this article went live.

There is definitely an absolute degree to suffering. A person who is starving in Africa is in much greater suffering than the family on foodstamps in America, from an objective, absolute perspective.

But there's also an aspect of suffering that is relative and personal. In this sense, the person in Africa, the person getting foodstamps, the financially 'suffering' banker, and the college student who can't figure out what he wants to do with the next 50 years of his life all have a comparatively similar degree of personal torture and suffering of the mental kind.

Absolute suffering and relative personal suffering are both real. But they are also very different beasts.

I honestly don't mind that Mr. Schiff makes $350k a year at age 48. I know a handful of people who were making 10x that amount in their heyday. I also expect to be making around that much by the time I'm that age anyways; if I don't, then I probably have a good reason why I took a detour, so that's fine too.

His unhappiness with the situation is totally fine too. It's incredibly difficult to see the world from outside the shell that is your self. If I were in his shoes I'd likely bitch and moan too. Besides, like Mani said, his suffering is real.

But if I were in his shoes, I would not complain publicly in this current toxic atmosphere towards finance. Who knows, maybe his words were taken completely out of context. One would surely hope that the true "villain" in the situation is the Bloomberg linkbaiting reporter.

In social science, we both count relativ poverty and absolute poverty.

Absolute poverty is when you can't pay a certain bag of necessary goods and relativ poverty is when you have a certain % of the median salary (50% or 60% most of the time). Well there are a lot of other way of doing it (like for exemple privation poverty, which is based around the idea that you are poor as soon as you cannot pay yourself a certain good that is considered as a necessity in the world you live in).

Considering all those definition, one can say that a guy who have internet can still be a poor in an occidental society considering relativ poverty or privation poverty's definitions. But, Mr. Schiff will always be a rich, no matter what kind of definition you take. That is the difference. When one say "relativ suffering", nobody is referring to the fact that suffering is subjectiv, but that your own suffering is in relation to others : it's about your own position in regard to the people surrounding you, in your own society, how much respect you get from them, etc.
Mr. Schiff can be sad all he wants about not having the car he wants or whatever, that doesn't mean his suffering are at the same level of a guys who is crying on the internet because if suffering are relative, his suffering are still the suffering of the top 1%.

Treehead

999 Posts

March 02 2012 15:03 GMT

#43

I honestly don't mind that Mr. Schiff makes $350k a year at age 48. I know a handful of people who were making 10x that amount in their heyday. I also expect to be making around that much by the time I'm that age anyways; if I don't, then I probably have a good reason why I took a detour, so that's fine too.

I mind it - income inequality, that is. It bothers me that some people can't afford to eat while others don't bat an eye on spending thousands on clothing that lacks the same kind of absolute value to the world that a human life has. It bothers me that it doesn't bother more people. However, I don't think the rich are to blame for the system being like it is. Systems have flaws. It's our job as a society to redesign them when they go bad. We're not really doing that, though, so we can't complain that someone is doing something both legal and understandable with money that society has allowed him to accumulate. That's ridiculous.

There is definitely an absolute degree to suffering. A person who is starving in Africa is in much greater suffering than the family on foodstamps in America, from an objective, absolute perspective.

But there's also an aspect of suffering that is relative and personal. In this sense, the person in Africa, the person getting foodstamps, the financially 'suffering' banker, and the college student who can't figure out what he wants to do with the next 50 years of his life all have a comparatively similar degree of personal torture and suffering of the mental kind.

Absolute suffering and relative personal suffering are both real. But they are also very different beasts.

I love this point of view. It feels like a philosophical cop-out to say that all suffering is relative because there's no real way of measuring which form of suffering *should* be worse, but we feel like we ought to just know that being on food stamps is worse than losing part of your bonus. I think most of the people claiming this point of view, though, were really just doing so to give those who lost their heads over this a much needed reality check.

if I were in his shoes, I would not complain publicly in this current toxic atmosphere towards finance. Who knows, maybe his words were taken completely out of context. One would surely hope that the true "villain" in the situation is the Bloomberg linkbaiting reporter.

Its also possible that there is no villain. Articles like these that cause us to challenge how competently others are leading our lives should first cause us to ask the question "how well do I really know this person?" Text is great for delivering quick meaning, but less good for delivering deep meaning in a concise format. Remember the first time that girl you were seeing told you she loved you in person? Now - do you also remember the first time a girl texted you "I <3 you"? Without the auditory and facial queues, deep meaning tends to be lost in the written word. We should therefore assume when reading an article with this kind of personal appeal that we really don't know anyone involved well enough to know what they meant and pass judgement. We can speculate (which you admit you're doing, so this isn't really intended to call you out), but we have to kind of assume that why and how such an article got published is beyond us... unless of course, there becomes more text for us to find patterns in to draw conclusions from.

Jedclark

United Kingdom903 Posts

March 02 2012 21:23 GMT

#44

On March 02 2012 13:50 Manifesto7 wrote:
I agree with the point that, considering the current political climate in America, it isn't a smart move for the subjects of the article to go public with their situation. The automatic reaction from people will be vitriol.

However, if you look past the dollar amount and think about percentages, their situation is no different than mine would be if I lost 20-30% of my salary. When I budget I examine what percentage of my income I can spend for housing, or vehicles, or whatever. I don't ignore my salary and go for the cheapest option. If my budget responsibilities are 75% of my paycheque and them my income dips to 70% of what it normally is then I am in trouble. My total income doesn't matter.

I don't like the fact that people who are successful are vilified and mocked when they run in to trouble. Of course as the salary goes up this idea is harder and harder to deal with because there is a saturation point where people are simply consuming for the point of consuming. But in the 6 figure range you aren't there yet imo.

I think this is an excellent post, and has changed my viewpoint on the situation.

Prev 1 2 3 All

Please or register to reply.