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On December 16 2011 08:24 Dandel Ion wrote:
From a purely bio(psycho)logical standpoint, it's obvious that everybody thinks their race is weakest, since we remember negative things better than positive.
Which was useful in the jungle or whatever, but it does make people annoying whiners now that we wouldn't need this trait anymore.
I thought terran was fine before all the nerfs. And buffs to the other races.
Now terran is far and away the worst race in the game. You have to outplay your opponent by a huge margin to win as terran.
Terran is really the only race where you can outplay your opponent and still lose.
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On December 16 2011 08:39 DarkEnergy wrote:
Good riddance i say.
I suck ZvT don't know how to deal with them.
They cheese allot turtle like hell and its generally frustrating to play against them.
So i have a healthy dislike of them as a result.
Sometimes i just have to stop playing after a match with a Terran because of the shit they trow at me T-T
Rather play ZvZ
lol if terrans turtle just make over 9000 banelings
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On December 16 2011 08:31 dani` wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 08:24 Dandel Ion wrote:
From a purely bio(psycho)logical standpoint, it's obvious that everybody thinks their race is weakest, since we remember negative things better than positive.
Which was useful in the jungle or whatever, but it does make people annoying whiners now that we wouldn't need this trait anymore. And has to do with attributing negative stuff to external factors (I lose, game must be imbalanced) and positive stuff towards yourself (I won, I must be amazing at this game). Terran might be in a more difficult spot now than before (not really convinced yet, no hard numbers to confirm) but the current QQ'ing going on seems out of proportion, i.e. even worse than Zerg when they actually had a point. ~ edit Well, to be fair since some nerfs to Terran and buffs to e.g. Protoss, Terran IS in a more difficult spot than before of course. But is it as horrible as people say, is it even bad at all? I am not convinced ^^
You are not convinced because you convinced yourself that the majority of Terran players have no idea what they are saying and have no rational argument, when in fact, it is quite the opposite if you would just read our posts. No one is saying because I lost therefore it must be imbalanced. I give twenty reasons why mid-late game TvP is heavily Protoss favored and all you can do is say some stupid shit like the above. There's a reason a vast vast majority of all Terrans have significant trouble in TvP especially past 12 minute mark. Round up all the replays of Terrans who get into mid-late game against Protoss, and you will see what we are talking about against any competent Protoss player who know how to use obs to stop drops (like PartinG), and who are aware how insanely powerful Colo/Archon/HT/Chargelot is. That army composition for Protoss is largely 1A with little micro, while the Terran has play near perfect just to scratch out an even resource trade (gosu gosu 300+APM micro with no mistakes).
The only Terran splash got severely nerfed last patch, and with Protosses finally learning to spread their HT (use Warp Prisms) which doesn't take much of the APM beside the fact that their deathball doesn't take much mechanics to pilot either. the Protoss is almost entirely splash; on top of that they have insanely difficult to kill chargelots who always do damage, and since Medivacs are extremely slow now usually get picked off by Archon/Stalker/HT when you try and retreat. It compounds the problem because you need to remake a lot of vikings against that composition which means less time for medivacs which you absolutely must have quite a few. Even with 2 reactor starport it takes precious time which usually means the Protoss deathball rolling into your production facilities and from there GG.
At least make the deathball more mechanically demanding. I don't like to nerf anything. If something is OP, then buff other units / mechanics to become on par. Colo should be manually charged, chargelots should be manual also, etc. There are lots of areas to make Protoss more challenging and thus, not as easy to use and give a more equal footing with each race. Imagine Terran MMM balls could automatically stutter step. They would free up so much actions to use on other things (or not), and it would give advantage to the Terran Player. You know how hard it is to use ghosts effectively, vikings effectively, MMM effectively, + macro all at the same time especially when Protoss can Warp Prism harass you while this is going on because their army doesn't require the actions that the Terran does?
All I am asking is to make Protoss as mechanically demanding as Terran. Do Protoss not want a higher skill ceiling?
Just ask any Terran player and they'll tell you losing to inferior players is so demoralizing in TvP. You have better multitask, better macro, better micro, and you still get stomped on. Somethings not right there. TvZ and TvT you know the better player has won.
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On December 16 2011 08:45 syllabic wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 08:24 Dandel Ion wrote:
From a purely bio(psycho)logical standpoint, it's obvious that everybody thinks their race is weakest, since we remember negative things better than positive.
Which was useful in the jungle or whatever, but it does make people annoying whiners now that we wouldn't need this trait anymore. I thought terran was fine before all the nerfs. And buffs to the other races. Now terran is far and away the worst race in the game. You have to outplay your opponent by a huge margin to win as terran. Terran is really the only race where you can outplay your opponent and still lose.
Posts like these give me a headache reading teamliquid. The game is pretty well balanced and I have gotten high master with all three races, one race hasn't seemed too much easier then other for me. When i see bronze-diamond players complaining about balance on teamliquid forums I dont know if i should laugh or get mad.
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On December 16 2011 08:50 Smile[PaiN] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 08:45 syllabic wrote:On December 16 2011 08:24 Dandel Ion wrote:
From a purely bio(psycho)logical standpoint, it's obvious that everybody thinks their race is weakest, since we remember negative things better than positive.
Which was useful in the jungle or whatever, but it does make people annoying whiners now that we wouldn't need this trait anymore. I thought terran was fine before all the nerfs. And buffs to the other races. Now terran is far and away the worst race in the game. You have to outplay your opponent by a huge margin to win as terran. Terran is really the only race where you can outplay your opponent and still lose. Posts like these give me a headache reading teamliquid. The game is pretty well balanced and I have gotten high master with all three races, one race hasn't seemed too much easier then other for me. When i see bronze-diamond players complaining about balance on teamliquid forums I dont know if i should laugh or get mad.
I'm in masters. At what point am I allowed to open my mouth about the glaring balance issues present in the game?
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On December 16 2011 08:45 syllabic wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 08:24 Dandel Ion wrote:
From a purely bio(psycho)logical standpoint, it's obvious that everybody thinks their race is weakest, since we remember negative things better than positive.
Which was useful in the jungle or whatever, but it does make people annoying whiners now that we wouldn't need this trait anymore. I thought terran was fine before all the nerfs. And buffs to the other races. Now terran is far and away the worst race in the game. You have to outplay your opponent by a huge margin to win as terran. Terran is really the only race where you can outplay your opponent and still lose.
Not really true. Many zerg players claim that they can completely outplay a protoss and still get destroyed by the 200/200 army. Protoss players can have one mistake and lose to a really good emp. This is such a volatile game for all three races, and that's a really broad statement to make.
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On December 16 2011 08:50 Smile[PaiN] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 08:45 syllabic wrote:On December 16 2011 08:24 Dandel Ion wrote:
From a purely bio(psycho)logical standpoint, it's obvious that everybody thinks their race is weakest, since we remember negative things better than positive.
Which was useful in the jungle or whatever, but it does make people annoying whiners now that we wouldn't need this trait anymore. I thought terran was fine before all the nerfs. And buffs to the other races. Now terran is far and away the worst race in the game. You have to outplay your opponent by a huge margin to win as terran. Terran is really the only race where you can outplay your opponent and still lose. Posts like these give me a headache reading teamliquid. The game is pretty well balanced and I have gotten high master with all three races, one race hasn't seemed too much easier then other for me. When i see bronze-diamond players complaining about balance on teamliquid forums I dont know if i should laugh or get mad.
Yeah, because DDE and BeastyQT, plus a whole bunch of other mid-higher masters and GM all says same thing about TvP they must obviously be bronze noobies. How about read the critiques and respond with rational inquiry instead of ad hominem character assassinations? You see nothing wrong with Protoss being able to 45 APM crush a Terran who has to use 200-300 APM to come out 'barely' even with superb near perfect micro and macro? All the Protoss know that Archon/Chargelot/Colo/HT takes little to no micro, but a little positioning and spreading and they can largely look away from the screen and still be highly effective especially when their army take so little actions that they can harass/drop you with Warp Prism and you know how hard that is to deal with as Terran when you HAVE to focus on your army or else it all gets melted in .2 seconds by all the Protoss splash?
Make Protoss take more actions and skill to play; that's all we are asking.
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The problem I think is that with every patch terrans get forced into more and more extreme versions of their builds. There's no such thing as opening 'safe' anymore. You either have to open supergreedy, or open with some serious agression (bordering on an all in). Just keeping up with your opponent isn't enough. If you don't enter the midgame with a serious advantage, you're as good as dead in TvZ/TvP (TvP definately being the worse of the 2). MMMVG as a unitcombo is not on equal terms with an endgame P army, and getting the feared 25 ghosts out costs you 2.5k gas and is only possibly under already advantageous circumstances (a supergreedy opener or a well-hit timing)
Now, this has always been the case but with each consecutive (unwarranted) nerf/buff and with Z/P players just getting better at defending (already very tight) timings, Terran is becoming much harder to win with, especially at non-GSL levels of micro.
In the end, it all comes down to blizzard unneccesarily patching the game because of some FotM whinefest. That said, I still really enjoy playing the race.
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On December 16 2011 08:45 syllabic wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 08:24 Dandel Ion wrote:
From a purely bio(psycho)logical standpoint, it's obvious that everybody thinks their race is weakest, since we remember negative things better than positive.
Which was useful in the jungle or whatever, but it does make people annoying whiners now that we wouldn't need this trait anymore. I thought terran was fine before all the nerfs. And buffs to the other races. Now terran is far and away the worst race in the game. You have to outplay your opponent by a huge margin to win as terran. Terran is really the only race where you can outplay your opponent and still lose.
My god... tripe like this belongs on the battle.net forums.
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Late game terran has always been this difficult for basically 99% of the terran population (i'm excluding progamers since I can't really speak for them). It's just now a.) players have a patch to blame it on and b.) have progamer results to kind of back things.
The lack of terrans is a mindset thing. I don't know if anyone else follows ladder trends but during the "protoss slump" era there was a lack of protoss on ladder just as there were a lack of zergs before infestor buff. Protoss during their "slump" was just as easy PvT for the majority of players as it is now. Yes I played protoss during that time and I've played protoss on the recent patch. I have also played terran during that time and I play terran now. Nothing has changed for most players except that people have a crowd to whine with
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no idea why but i rarely play a terran, furthermore a lot less toss on the ladder, i pretty much only play zvz all day and its really depressing
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On December 16 2011 08:52 syllabic wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 08:50 Smile[PaiN] wrote:On December 16 2011 08:45 syllabic wrote:On December 16 2011 08:24 Dandel Ion wrote:
From a purely bio(psycho)logical standpoint, it's obvious that everybody thinks their race is weakest, since we remember negative things better than positive.
Which was useful in the jungle or whatever, but it does make people annoying whiners now that we wouldn't need this trait anymore. I thought terran was fine before all the nerfs. And buffs to the other races. Now terran is far and away the worst race in the game. You have to outplay your opponent by a huge margin to win as terran. Terran is really the only race where you can outplay your opponent and still lose. Posts like these give me a headache reading teamliquid. The game is pretty well balanced and I have gotten high master with all three races, one race hasn't seemed too much easier then other for me. When i see bronze-diamond players complaining about balance on teamliquid forums I dont know if i should laugh or get mad. I'm in masters. At what point am I allowed to open my mouth about the glaring balance issues present in the game?
At whatever point you're not at yet. The "balance complaint dragon" is a dragon you will never* catch, no matter how good you get. It doesn't matter if you're talking about your level of play, the level below you, or pro level.
*only if you're Terran. If you're Zerg or Protoss, your complaints are justified and your race is hard to play due to the results of the last MLG, GSL, and/or Dreamhack.
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On December 16 2011 08:52 E.H Eager wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 08:45 syllabic wrote:On December 16 2011 08:24 Dandel Ion wrote:
From a purely bio(psycho)logical standpoint, it's obvious that everybody thinks their race is weakest, since we remember negative things better than positive.
Which was useful in the jungle or whatever, but it does make people annoying whiners now that we wouldn't need this trait anymore. I thought terran was fine before all the nerfs. And buffs to the other races. Now terran is far and away the worst race in the game. You have to outplay your opponent by a huge margin to win as terran. Terran is really the only race where you can outplay your opponent and still lose. Not really true. Many zerg players claim that they can completely outplay a protoss and still get destroyed by the 200/200 army. Protoss players can have one mistake and lose to a really good emp. This is such a volatile game for all three races, and that's a really broad statement to make.
Yeah, maybe @ 8-9 minute with Ghost rush, which if it fails you lose the game. No one is talking about early game TvP before HT/Colo/Chargelot can be really fielded. Honestly though, it isn't too difficult to keep a Terran on their heels in early game with good Stalker micro + build orders. The problem with TvP is past the ten minute mark, and if you are losing to EMP when you can destroy a Terran army in mere seconds (and should see it coming from a mile away with good obs positioning)...not sure what to say. It doesn't take that much actions or mechanics to pull off. All races need good decision making skills, that's not the argument here. Its the fact one race is sooo much easier past a certain portion of the game than the other where you can completely outplay your opponent and still get smashed. If that's happening in PvZ too, then it only further cements the fact that something is wrong. There should never be a time in the game where you just lose if you let the opponent get their deathstomp. That's bad game design.
It's like if we changed BW and if you let Zerg get defilers you pretty much have no shot at winning. That would be bad game design. Luckily you have units and compositions to deal with it, and defilers take quite a bit of mechanics to use well. Can't say the same for Protoss deathball.
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as a masters terran i can safely say that i have played 1 terran on ladder out of my last 40 games and that game was close spawn nerazim crypt (Fuuuuk)
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On December 16 2011 08:58 knyttym wrote:
Late game terran has always been this difficult for basically 99% of the terran population (i'm excluding progamers since I can't really speak for them). It's just now a.) players have a patch to blame it on and b.) have progamer results to kind of back things.
The lack of terrans is a mindset thing. I don't know if anyone else follows ladder trends but during the "protoss slump" era there was a lack of protoss on ladder just as there were a lack of zergs before infestor buff. Protoss during their "slump" was just as easy PvT for the majority of players as it is now. Yes I played protoss during that time and I've played protoss on the recent patch. I have also played terran during that time and I play terran now. Nothing has changed for most players except that people have a crowd to whine with
Well, during all those slumps of the other races, we saw the same slump from Terrans as well (in numbers). This isn't a decline that happened over night. Over the past 8-12 months, Terrans have slowly been leaving the ladder. What once was a slight minority in activity is now a startling absence.
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Oh my god yes!
I'm NOT ALONE!
Starcraft has just been so frustrating for me these past months... I simply feel tired to lose. And I felt the evolution - oh I felt it so hard. I refuse any cheese or all-ins, so no 1-1-1 or 9Rax10Rax, and it just makes games insane.
Please, hear my call for help. I've been a Diamond Terran for so long. I was high Diamond EZPZ, almost Masters. Then things went downhill. Crazy marine split became required to win any non-abusive TvZ (no cheese, no all-in). Then I switched to mech. And BLs became common - I was f*cked (come on, everyone saw Leenock destroy MVP last MLG). My TvP was okay, although it fell as if the Toss could just throw to much shit at me while I always tried to stay away from "tricks". I see early gases, but is that DTs, 3Gate Stargate, Sentry-heavy 4Gate? I prepare in fear, and then find out he... expanded. Then he goes for fast 1-1 upgrades and HTs with the banked gas. And if I don't prepare, I just lose to DTs, proxy VRs or just the sheer firepower of a 4Gate that can FF all of my bunkers.
I mean, come on. I use camera hotkeys. I expand, expand, expand. I stay on top of upgrades. I have 3 different control groups for my army. I rarely get supply blocked. I always know when my opponent is getting a third. But I'm just outplayed after every single mistake I make. In TvZ for example, it feels as if the Zerg sits back, grabs expansions if he banks money, and just throws stuff at me. PF? No problem bro, 20 Banes. Hellions? No problem bro, for a little mineral and gas I'll go from 1-1 Ling/bling to pure 0-1 Roaches. Oops, my army comp is suddenly irrelevant.
I'm not saying the game is imbalanced, balance is a very complex thing. But I feel that Terran W/R relies a lot on "tricks" like 1-1-1 and that standard play isn't forgiving at all. I'm just tired to feel as if the whole ladder got better while I'm stil struggling to stay at high diamond. The game just feels very hard for Diamond/Masters terrans.
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I dont know a whole lot about this game, but from my games on ladder it just seems as though terran needs more time to develop, although i do believe they have been unreasonably nerfed each patch, and this is coming from a zerg lol.
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I've been feeling this way about tvp in a long time and its nice too see im not alone.
Basically if I havent done serious damage(like 20+ probe kills) within the first 13min and the game goes to lategame I feel like im playing at a severe disadvantage. Now when protoss is getting better at defending our early game strats things have gotten alot harder.
I just hate the fact that our lategame composition is soo bad and requires alot more apm compared to protoss its frustrating can anyone even deny that? try a-moving terran 200 army vs protoss 200 army the result is not even funny.
I feel like terran are almost only getting wins by doing "tricky" builds and catch the enemy completely off-guard like 1-1-1 or proxy rax or something like that.
been mid-high masters eu since season1
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I don't know what the actual numbers are, but I've been noticing the same thing. The huge majority of my games are TvZ > TvP > TvT.
I'm guessing maybe 1/10 (if that) games are TvT for me.
I was on the verge of changing to zerg at the start of season 4 but I got so tired of playing 10+ zvz games in a row that I went back to Terran.
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At the end of the day everyone will always say their race is the worst and the other races are easier to play. It's been the same way for the past year, I don't know why these threads keep popping up.
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EPT
