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On December 16 2011 10:25 tomatriedes wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 10:17 Kharnage wrote:On December 16 2011 08:55 Wegandi wrote:On December 16 2011 08:50 Smile[PaiN] wrote:On December 16 2011 08:45 syllabic wrote:On December 16 2011 08:24 Dandel Ion wrote:
From a purely bio(psycho)logical standpoint, it's obvious that everybody thinks their race is weakest, since we remember negative things better than positive.
Which was useful in the jungle or whatever, but it does make people annoying whiners now that we wouldn't need this trait anymore. I thought terran was fine before all the nerfs. And buffs to the other races. Now terran is far and away the worst race in the game. You have to outplay your opponent by a huge margin to win as terran. Terran is really the only race where you can outplay your opponent and still lose. Posts like these give me a headache reading teamliquid. The game is pretty well balanced and I have gotten high master with all three races, one race hasn't seemed too much easier then other for me. When i see bronze-diamond players complaining about balance on teamliquid forums I dont know if i should laugh or get mad. Yeah, because DDE and BeastyQT, plus a whole bunch of other mid-higher masters and GM all says same thing about TvP they must obviously be bronze noobies. How about read the critiques and respond with rational inquiry instead of ad hominem character assassinations? You see nothing wrong with Protoss being able to 45 APM crush a Terran who has to use 200-300 APM to come out 'barely' even with superb near perfect micro and macro? All the Protoss know that Archon/Chargelot/Colo/HT takes little to no micro, but a little positioning and spreading and they can largely look away from the screen and still be highly effective especially when their army take so little actions that they can harass/drop you with Warp Prism and you know how hard that is to deal with as Terran when you HAVE to focus on your army or else it all gets melted in .2 seconds by all the Protoss splash? Make Protoss take more actions and skill to play; that's all we are asking. Doesn't DDE not hotkey his rax? I seem to remember day9 doing a daily on him and going "interesting fact, DDE is a nut case" You are exagerating the protoss side of the battle to make your point, but it's starting to get annoying. If a protoss isn't paying attention they will lose the money units and then the game. And I've yet to see anyone get the money storms while not looking at the fight. If you don't focus fire the colossus you're going to lose, there are things you have to do. I'm not saying terran is easier or some shit, i'm just getting tired of this 'protoss just 1a and win' crap. Stop it, it's annoying. Some of these people need to watch Hero's or Huk's stream and make the same ridiculous assertions that protoss players have no micro and no skill.
But that would not further the argument that Terran is under powered, so why would they do that?
Oh that right, terran isn't underpowered. They are just weaker than the other races in a specific subset of the ladder that is narrowly defined by both skill level and region to fit the arguments of several posters. Really, they are the worst race, require the most AMP and are nearly impossible to do well with. The only reason that terrans have been the most winning race in all major events is because the terran players are just so much better than zerg and protoss players.
This is all well known fact. Why? Because it has been posted over and over and over on TL for nearly a month. Because if you say something enough times and cherry pick your evidence, it becomes true.
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On December 16 2011 10:23 jrdn wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 10:07 Kukaracha wrote:On December 16 2011 09:54 jrdn wrote:
High diamond T here. I too have noticed a large drop in T's on ladder for the past ~8 months or so.
As for the TvP concerns, I too had difficulty against the P's until I tried using different unit comps. Many T's seem to be complaining about how their endgame comp is no good (mmmvg). This is distressing for 2 reasons. First, they are using a midgame comp and calling it a late game comp. That would be like a zerg complaining that their late game comp of ling/bling/muta has a tough time dealing with fully maxed T armies. The second distressing concern is many Terran's reluctance to try new unit comps. This observation is usually met with some sort of complaint about the impotence of mech, all the while neglecting their third unit producing structure....that is..the one that can produce the largest number of different units. Oh I'm a sky Terran too. But don't fool yourself, it's extremely hard to pull off at higher levels. Most of these builds autolose to Blink Stalkers, sometimes 3Gate Stargate. It is also very hard to pull off against Archons and HTs like mentioned before. It's also very hard to pull off against an appropriate response: double Stargate. They don't really need to outmatch your Viking count. They just need to make you do a bunch of useless Vikings to crush you with a second attack. And as of the Obs sniping, well, that's just like 1-1-1: it's a trick. Just a trick that might win you the game. I don't use it, because well, you never get better using tricks. It's no different than going 3Gate DT or Hatch cancel into Roach rush every single game. I meant early blink, of course. Certainly there are challenges with any build, however, I contend that utilizing the starport more will certainly achieve a "playable" position. I posit that terrans have been stuck on heavy bio play due to their reliance on heavy bio openings. Most players feel safer throwing down more rax so that they are safer now, as opposed to teching up (or they have had some success jamming mm down the throats of protoss in the early game). I do believe heavy starport play achieves a much more winnable position than pure bio w/ non air-to-ground air support. There are many ways to incorporate the starport into your play which can give your air play depth. On one end of the spectrum we have Pure Air while on the other end we have a bio comp with banshees mixed in instead of vikings. There are strategies with BC's, some with Ravens, some with both. There are so many different options available to Terrans (which is why I switched back ~9months ago) it is such a sad sight to see so few players experiment with such awesome units.
Still, Banshees don't have the range Vikings have, aren't as cheap, and can't be double-produced from a single building. That's why bio with Banshees just doesn't work; plus, the gas require forces you to go mass Marines, who melt to pretty much everything. In that case, your whole army is very vulnerable to one single storm! As for Ravens and BCs, well, feedback hurts a lot, and after having tried BCs in TvP... they just don't work with bio. They do with mass air, in small numbers, but they don't do the necessary DPS to help bio at all.
I mean there's a reason that top GM never go for such compos. And I've seen many VODs where they try, it sometimes work, but it's not consistent at all. The timing window where you get your Starports + techlabs and then start Banshee production leaves you oh so very weak. This is why such styles will never be "standard".
There might be a future for Starport units but it won't solve the problem, as those are also pretty micro-intensive, expensive and hardly replaceable.
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On December 16 2011 10:35 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 10:25 tomatriedes wrote:On December 16 2011 10:17 Kharnage wrote:On December 16 2011 08:55 Wegandi wrote:On December 16 2011 08:50 Smile[PaiN] wrote:On December 16 2011 08:45 syllabic wrote:On December 16 2011 08:24 Dandel Ion wrote:
From a purely bio(psycho)logical standpoint, it's obvious that everybody thinks their race is weakest, since we remember negative things better than positive.
Which was useful in the jungle or whatever, but it does make people annoying whiners now that we wouldn't need this trait anymore. I thought terran was fine before all the nerfs. And buffs to the other races. Now terran is far and away the worst race in the game. You have to outplay your opponent by a huge margin to win as terran. Terran is really the only race where you can outplay your opponent and still lose. Posts like these give me a headache reading teamliquid. The game is pretty well balanced and I have gotten high master with all three races, one race hasn't seemed too much easier then other for me. When i see bronze-diamond players complaining about balance on teamliquid forums I dont know if i should laugh or get mad. Yeah, because DDE and BeastyQT, plus a whole bunch of other mid-higher masters and GM all says same thing about TvP they must obviously be bronze noobies. How about read the critiques and respond with rational inquiry instead of ad hominem character assassinations? You see nothing wrong with Protoss being able to 45 APM crush a Terran who has to use 200-300 APM to come out 'barely' even with superb near perfect micro and macro? All the Protoss know that Archon/Chargelot/Colo/HT takes little to no micro, but a little positioning and spreading and they can largely look away from the screen and still be highly effective especially when their army take so little actions that they can harass/drop you with Warp Prism and you know how hard that is to deal with as Terran when you HAVE to focus on your army or else it all gets melted in .2 seconds by all the Protoss splash? Make Protoss take more actions and skill to play; that's all we are asking. Doesn't DDE not hotkey his rax? I seem to remember day9 doing a daily on him and going "interesting fact, DDE is a nut case" You are exagerating the protoss side of the battle to make your point, but it's starting to get annoying. If a protoss isn't paying attention they will lose the money units and then the game. And I've yet to see anyone get the money storms while not looking at the fight. If you don't focus fire the colossus you're going to lose, there are things you have to do. I'm not saying terran is easier or some shit, i'm just getting tired of this 'protoss just 1a and win' crap. Stop it, it's annoying. Some of these people need to watch Hero's or Huk's stream and make the same ridiculous assertions that protoss players have no micro and no skill. But that would not further the argument that Terran is under powered, so why would they do that? Oh that right, terran isn't underpowered. They are just weaker than the other races in a specific subset of the ladder that is narrowly defined by both skill level and region to fit the arguments of several posters. Really, they are the worst race, require the most AMP and are nearly impossible to do well with. The only reason that terrans have been the most winning race in all major events is because the terran players are just so much better than zerg and protoss players. This is all well known fact. Why? Because it has been posted over and over and over on TL for nearly a month. Because if you say something enough times and cherry pick your evidence, it becomes true.
Zerg is the no-micro race. Protoss is just overpowered.
And all the tournaments that terran do well at are the same 3-4 people, and they are korean pros who play 12 hours a day. So if you don't live in a korean practice house and train every waking moment, play another race. And Nestea was winning gsl's when zerg was "underpowered." And MC was winning GSLs when protoss was "underpowered".
You already got your buffs, you don't need to play the protoss pity card any more.
I find it hilarious that some people think its INCONCEIVABLE that terran might be underpowered. Despite the fact that next to nobody plays it anymore. You can watch any TvZ or TvP that goes to lategame and see there is a serious power disparity with terran lategame armies compared to either other race. But people take it for granted or something that terran should just lose if the game goes on longer than 15 minutes or 3 bases.
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I remember either earlier in this thread or a while ago in a different thread, there was a really good analysis on why terrans are leaving which is that
1) Terran units are on average slower then both of the other races, which punishes you a lot more for harassment and encourages turtling
2) Macro games take a while for terrans to win (tvz you need to tank crawl, tvp is a lot of dancing, tvt is tvt) which means that a lot more effort goes into the longer games versus the deathball style of P and sometimes Z.
3) Because it feels as though more effort is put in by terrans when they lose it is more frustrating because they don't have a specific deathball strategy-in truth, almost all engagements rely on splitting your army carefully and running away from what Z/P can throw at you because if you don't stutter step/split against chargelots and banelings you get destroyed easily
4) Wins can often also be frustrating because for so long Terrans were called OP, and this mentality sometimes persists into today and a lot of times when terran wins its followed by balance whines
5) Terrans also get frustrated because they are nerfed pretty much every patch~with every patch the game gets harder for them, while other races are buffed at the same time in often unnecessary/ridiculous ways (ground weapons for robo and gate tech just as expensive as bio weapon upgrades that only apply to one tech tree T_T)
It was much more elaborate then that, but thats the best im willing to do because T_T homework ;_;
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You know this game can be frustrating for other races as well guys. I play protoss at plat level and I have literally (no exaggerating) never won a single game against a zerg who has got over 10 mutalisks against me (and 90% of ZvP ladder games seem to be mutas now). I just don't have the ridiculous multitask that it requires to defend against mutas while trying to secure a third/harass with puny stalkers that get raped by mutaling so easily. I've read the guides and know what to do I just can't execute it yet so generally I have to try and do some all-in in every ZvP to end the game before mutas pop.
But you know what? I know balance is meaningless at my level because I can play better so I don't complain about it. Balance has to work at the highest level of the game otherwise SC2 will become a shit spectator sport and that's the only thing I ever complain about. When every Korean semifinal was TvTvTvT I wouldn't bother watching- I like seeing different races play each other- it's so much more interesting than mirrors for me. If you want some buff to make it easier for you then you would have to accept buffs that would give top Z and P pros more of a chance against terrans at the highest level but would not effect ladder level games (easier said than done of course).
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On December 16 2011 10:35 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 10:25 tomatriedes wrote:On December 16 2011 10:17 Kharnage wrote:On December 16 2011 08:55 Wegandi wrote:On December 16 2011 08:50 Smile[PaiN] wrote:On December 16 2011 08:45 syllabic wrote:On December 16 2011 08:24 Dandel Ion wrote:
From a purely bio(psycho)logical standpoint, it's obvious that everybody thinks their race is weakest, since we remember negative things better than positive.
Which was useful in the jungle or whatever, but it does make people annoying whiners now that we wouldn't need this trait anymore. I thought terran was fine before all the nerfs. And buffs to the other races. Now terran is far and away the worst race in the game. You have to outplay your opponent by a huge margin to win as terran. Terran is really the only race where you can outplay your opponent and still lose. Posts like these give me a headache reading teamliquid. The game is pretty well balanced and I have gotten high master with all three races, one race hasn't seemed too much easier then other for me. When i see bronze-diamond players complaining about balance on teamliquid forums I dont know if i should laugh or get mad. Yeah, because DDE and BeastyQT, plus a whole bunch of other mid-higher masters and GM all says same thing about TvP they must obviously be bronze noobies. How about read the critiques and respond with rational inquiry instead of ad hominem character assassinations? You see nothing wrong with Protoss being able to 45 APM crush a Terran who has to use 200-300 APM to come out 'barely' even with superb near perfect micro and macro? All the Protoss know that Archon/Chargelot/Colo/HT takes little to no micro, but a little positioning and spreading and they can largely look away from the screen and still be highly effective especially when their army take so little actions that they can harass/drop you with Warp Prism and you know how hard that is to deal with as Terran when you HAVE to focus on your army or else it all gets melted in .2 seconds by all the Protoss splash? Make Protoss take more actions and skill to play; that's all we are asking. Doesn't DDE not hotkey his rax? I seem to remember day9 doing a daily on him and going "interesting fact, DDE is a nut case" You are exagerating the protoss side of the battle to make your point, but it's starting to get annoying. If a protoss isn't paying attention they will lose the money units and then the game. And I've yet to see anyone get the money storms while not looking at the fight. If you don't focus fire the colossus you're going to lose, there are things you have to do. I'm not saying terran is easier or some shit, i'm just getting tired of this 'protoss just 1a and win' crap. Stop it, it's annoying. Some of these people need to watch Hero's or Huk's stream and make the same ridiculous assertions that protoss players have no micro and no skill. But that would not further the argument that Terran is under powered, so why would they do that? Oh that right, terran isn't underpowered. They are just weaker than the other races in a specific subset of the ladder that is narrowly defined by both skill level and region to fit the arguments of several posters. Really, they are the worst race, require the most AMP and are nearly impossible to do well with. The only reason that terrans have been the most winning race in all major events is because the terran players are just so much better than zerg and protoss players. This is all well known fact. Why? Because it has been posted over and over and over on TL for nearly a month. Because if you say something enough times and cherry pick your evidence, it becomes true.
Please don't disregard our complaints just because a bunch of idiots simply thinks that all races are easy and Terran is impossible.
However, regarding pro players skills, the idea is precisely that Terran has a great potential in their hands, but is very hard for less-skilled people.
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On December 16 2011 10:36 Kukaracha wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 10:23 jrdn wrote:On December 16 2011 10:07 Kukaracha wrote:On December 16 2011 09:54 jrdn wrote:
High diamond T here. I too have noticed a large drop in T's on ladder for the past ~8 months or so.
As for the TvP concerns, I too had difficulty against the P's until I tried using different unit comps. Many T's seem to be complaining about how their endgame comp is no good (mmmvg). This is distressing for 2 reasons. First, they are using a midgame comp and calling it a late game comp. That would be like a zerg complaining that their late game comp of ling/bling/muta has a tough time dealing with fully maxed T armies. The second distressing concern is many Terran's reluctance to try new unit comps. This observation is usually met with some sort of complaint about the impotence of mech, all the while neglecting their third unit producing structure....that is..the one that can produce the largest number of different units. Oh I'm a sky Terran too. But don't fool yourself, it's extremely hard to pull off at higher levels. Most of these builds autolose to Blink Stalkers, sometimes 3Gate Stargate. It is also very hard to pull off against Archons and HTs like mentioned before. It's also very hard to pull off against an appropriate response: double Stargate. They don't really need to outmatch your Viking count. They just need to make you do a bunch of useless Vikings to crush you with a second attack. And as of the Obs sniping, well, that's just like 1-1-1: it's a trick. Just a trick that might win you the game. I don't use it, because well, you never get better using tricks. It's no different than going 3Gate DT or Hatch cancel into Roach rush every single game. I meant early blink, of course. Certainly there are challenges with any build, however, I contend that utilizing the starport more will certainly achieve a "playable" position. I posit that terrans have been stuck on heavy bio play due to their reliance on heavy bio openings. Most players feel safer throwing down more rax so that they are safer now, as opposed to teching up (or they have had some success jamming mm down the throats of protoss in the early game). I do believe heavy starport play achieves a much more winnable position than pure bio w/ non air-to-ground air support. There are many ways to incorporate the starport into your play which can give your air play depth. On one end of the spectrum we have Pure Air while on the other end we have a bio comp with banshees mixed in instead of vikings. There are strategies with BC's, some with Ravens, some with both. There are so many different options available to Terrans (which is why I switched back ~9months ago) it is such a sad sight to see so few players experiment with such awesome units. Still, Banshees don't have the range Vikings have, aren't as cheap, and can't be double-produced from a single building. That's why bio with Banshees just doesn't work; plus, the gas require forces you to go mass Marines, who melt to pretty much everything. In that case, your whole army is very vulnerable to one single storm! As for Ravens and BCs, well, feedback hurts a lot, and after having tried BCs in TvP... they just don't work with bio. They do with mass air, in small numbers, but they don't do the necessary DPS to help bio at all. I mean there's a reason that top GM never go for such compos. And I've seen many VODs where they try, it sometimes work, but it's not consistent at all. The timing window where you get your Starports + techlabs and then start Banshee production leaves you oh so very weak. This is why such styles will never be "standard". There might be a future for Starport units but it won't solve the problem, as those are also pretty micro-intensive, expensive and hardly replaceable.
Yoshi Kirishima said he has over 90% winrate in TvP going air terran in masters. It may not work that well in GM but most of the people complaining here are never going to be in GM anyway. If it can work that well at masters level it's obviously not as bad as people like you try to make out.
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If you don't like the race then don't play the race, there's really no reason to complain. If Terran is too hard for you to handle then give it up, simple as that.
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On December 16 2011 10:48 BeeNu wrote:
If you don't like the race then don't play the race, there's really no reason to complain. If Terran is too hard for you to handle then give it up, simple as that.
Yes, and that's why we are witnessing the disappearance of Terrans from the ladder.
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On December 16 2011 10:35 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 10:25 tomatriedes wrote:On December 16 2011 10:17 Kharnage wrote:On December 16 2011 08:55 Wegandi wrote:On December 16 2011 08:50 Smile[PaiN] wrote:On December 16 2011 08:45 syllabic wrote:On December 16 2011 08:24 Dandel Ion wrote:
From a purely bio(psycho)logical standpoint, it's obvious that everybody thinks their race is weakest, since we remember negative things better than positive.
Which was useful in the jungle or whatever, but it does make people annoying whiners now that we wouldn't need this trait anymore. I thought terran was fine before all the nerfs. And buffs to the other races. Now terran is far and away the worst race in the game. You have to outplay your opponent by a huge margin to win as terran. Terran is really the only race where you can outplay your opponent and still lose. Posts like these give me a headache reading teamliquid. The game is pretty well balanced and I have gotten high master with all three races, one race hasn't seemed too much easier then other for me. When i see bronze-diamond players complaining about balance on teamliquid forums I dont know if i should laugh or get mad. Yeah, because DDE and BeastyQT, plus a whole bunch of other mid-higher masters and GM all says same thing about TvP they must obviously be bronze noobies. How about read the critiques and respond with rational inquiry instead of ad hominem character assassinations? You see nothing wrong with Protoss being able to 45 APM crush a Terran who has to use 200-300 APM to come out 'barely' even with superb near perfect micro and macro? All the Protoss know that Archon/Chargelot/Colo/HT takes little to no micro, but a little positioning and spreading and they can largely look away from the screen and still be highly effective especially when their army take so little actions that they can harass/drop you with Warp Prism and you know how hard that is to deal with as Terran when you HAVE to focus on your army or else it all gets melted in .2 seconds by all the Protoss splash? Make Protoss take more actions and skill to play; that's all we are asking. Doesn't DDE not hotkey his rax? I seem to remember day9 doing a daily on him and going "interesting fact, DDE is a nut case" You are exagerating the protoss side of the battle to make your point, but it's starting to get annoying. If a protoss isn't paying attention they will lose the money units and then the game. And I've yet to see anyone get the money storms while not looking at the fight. If you don't focus fire the colossus you're going to lose, there are things you have to do. I'm not saying terran is easier or some shit, i'm just getting tired of this 'protoss just 1a and win' crap. Stop it, it's annoying. Some of these people need to watch Hero's or Huk's stream and make the same ridiculous assertions that protoss players have no micro and no skill. But that would not further the argument that Terran is under powered, so why would they do that? Oh that right, terran isn't underpowered. They are just weaker than the other races in a specific subset of the ladder that is narrowly defined by both skill level and region to fit the arguments of several posters. Really, they are the worst race, require the most AMP and are nearly impossible to do well with. The only reason that terrans have been the most winning race in all major events is because the terran players are just so much better than zerg and protoss players. This is all well known fact. Why? Because it has been posted over and over and over on TL for nearly a month. Because if you say something enough times and cherry pick your evidence, it becomes true.
So its all right for protosses to cry, and zergs to cry as well, but as soon as terran players have had enough with nerf after nerf while watching other races get buffed, all the terrans become biased idiots?
While Hero and HuK do indeed have strong micro, its extra (unless its PvP). The general tactics are all that you really need, because a colo/vr/stalker deathball or a charge/archon/templar deathball or a sentry/stalker/colo/templar ball all require a minimal involvement of micro over time, and do not require a lot of intensive attention to execute.
As a terran however, you dont have a short intensive micro requirement-you need to be stutter stepping and paying attention to storms and watching out for forcefields and focusing colossi over the course of the engagement. The protoss throws down forcefields and storms and morphs archons and waits to see what happens.
Protoss micro, just like production, is frontloaded. Terran micro takes time to show up as having any useful effects.
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On December 16 2011 10:38 syllabic wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 10:35 Plansix wrote:On December 16 2011 10:25 tomatriedes wrote:On December 16 2011 10:17 Kharnage wrote:On December 16 2011 08:55 Wegandi wrote:On December 16 2011 08:50 Smile[PaiN] wrote:On December 16 2011 08:45 syllabic wrote:On December 16 2011 08:24 Dandel Ion wrote:
From a purely bio(psycho)logical standpoint, it's obvious that everybody thinks their race is weakest, since we remember negative things better than positive.
Which was useful in the jungle or whatever, but it does make people annoying whiners now that we wouldn't need this trait anymore. I thought terran was fine before all the nerfs. And buffs to the other races. Now terran is far and away the worst race in the game. You have to outplay your opponent by a huge margin to win as terran. Terran is really the only race where you can outplay your opponent and still lose. Posts like these give me a headache reading teamliquid. The game is pretty well balanced and I have gotten high master with all three races, one race hasn't seemed too much easier then other for me. When i see bronze-diamond players complaining about balance on teamliquid forums I dont know if i should laugh or get mad. Yeah, because DDE and BeastyQT, plus a whole bunch of other mid-higher masters and GM all says same thing about TvP they must obviously be bronze noobies. How about read the critiques and respond with rational inquiry instead of ad hominem character assassinations? You see nothing wrong with Protoss being able to 45 APM crush a Terran who has to use 200-300 APM to come out 'barely' even with superb near perfect micro and macro? All the Protoss know that Archon/Chargelot/Colo/HT takes little to no micro, but a little positioning and spreading and they can largely look away from the screen and still be highly effective especially when their army take so little actions that they can harass/drop you with Warp Prism and you know how hard that is to deal with as Terran when you HAVE to focus on your army or else it all gets melted in .2 seconds by all the Protoss splash? Make Protoss take more actions and skill to play; that's all we are asking. Doesn't DDE not hotkey his rax? I seem to remember day9 doing a daily on him and going "interesting fact, DDE is a nut case" You are exagerating the protoss side of the battle to make your point, but it's starting to get annoying. If a protoss isn't paying attention they will lose the money units and then the game. And I've yet to see anyone get the money storms while not looking at the fight. If you don't focus fire the colossus you're going to lose, there are things you have to do. I'm not saying terran is easier or some shit, i'm just getting tired of this 'protoss just 1a and win' crap. Stop it, it's annoying. Some of these people need to watch Hero's or Huk's stream and make the same ridiculous assertions that protoss players have no micro and no skill. But that would not further the argument that Terran is under powered, so why would they do that? Oh that right, terran isn't underpowered. They are just weaker than the other races in a specific subset of the ladder that is narrowly defined by both skill level and region to fit the arguments of several posters. Really, they are the worst race, require the most AMP and are nearly impossible to do well with. The only reason that terrans have been the most winning race in all major events is because the terran players are just so much better than zerg and protoss players. This is all well known fact. Why? Because it has been posted over and over and over on TL for nearly a month. Because if you say something enough times and cherry pick your evidence, it becomes true. Zerg is the no-micro race. Protoss is just overpowered. And all the tournaments that terran do well at are the same 3-4 people, and they are korean pros who play 12 hours a day. So if you don't live in a korean practice house and train every waking moment, play another race. And Nestea was winning gsl's when zerg was "underpowered." And MC was winning GSLs when protoss was "underpowered". You already got your buffs, you don't need to play the protoss pity card any more. I find it hilarious that some people think its INCONCEIVABLE that terran might be underpowered. Despite the fact that next to nobody plays it anymore. You can watch any TvZ or TvP that goes to lategame and see there is a serious power disparity with terran lategame armies compared to either other race. But people take it for granted or something that terran should just lose if the game goes on longer than 15 minutes or 3 bases.
I find his hilarious that a small number of players have created a massive theory on TL based on the some limited, cherry picked stats to prove that their race is weakest in their specific league, which they happen to be in. The myth keeps getting bigger and bigger. First it was that there were few terrans in GM. Then fewer successful terrans outside of Korea. Then it grew to terrans are dropping off the ladder like some rare endangered cat. Now it has become that terran requires 300 amp to simply fight a protoss in a main battle. Now your argument is that only players in Korea who practice 12 hours a day are doing well and everyone else is dying.
None of it is based off of fact or evidence beyond a website that allows you to view stats from a specific region or area. It is just people posting over and over how hard their race is and yelling at protoss and zerg players that they got their buffs and they should shut up.
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On December 16 2011 10:45 tomatriedes wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 10:36 Kukaracha wrote:On December 16 2011 10:23 jrdn wrote:On December 16 2011 10:07 Kukaracha wrote:On December 16 2011 09:54 jrdn wrote:
High diamond T here. I too have noticed a large drop in T's on ladder for the past ~8 months or so.
As for the TvP concerns, I too had difficulty against the P's until I tried using different unit comps. Many T's seem to be complaining about how their endgame comp is no good (mmmvg). This is distressing for 2 reasons. First, they are using a midgame comp and calling it a late game comp. That would be like a zerg complaining that their late game comp of ling/bling/muta has a tough time dealing with fully maxed T armies. The second distressing concern is many Terran's reluctance to try new unit comps. This observation is usually met with some sort of complaint about the impotence of mech, all the while neglecting their third unit producing structure....that is..the one that can produce the largest number of different units. Oh I'm a sky Terran too. But don't fool yourself, it's extremely hard to pull off at higher levels. Most of these builds autolose to Blink Stalkers, sometimes 3Gate Stargate. It is also very hard to pull off against Archons and HTs like mentioned before. It's also very hard to pull off against an appropriate response: double Stargate. They don't really need to outmatch your Viking count. They just need to make you do a bunch of useless Vikings to crush you with a second attack. And as of the Obs sniping, well, that's just like 1-1-1: it's a trick. Just a trick that might win you the game. I don't use it, because well, you never get better using tricks. It's no different than going 3Gate DT or Hatch cancel into Roach rush every single game. I meant early blink, of course. Certainly there are challenges with any build, however, I contend that utilizing the starport more will certainly achieve a "playable" position. I posit that terrans have been stuck on heavy bio play due to their reliance on heavy bio openings. Most players feel safer throwing down more rax so that they are safer now, as opposed to teching up (or they have had some success jamming mm down the throats of protoss in the early game). I do believe heavy starport play achieves a much more winnable position than pure bio w/ non air-to-ground air support. There are many ways to incorporate the starport into your play which can give your air play depth. On one end of the spectrum we have Pure Air while on the other end we have a bio comp with banshees mixed in instead of vikings. There are strategies with BC's, some with Ravens, some with both. There are so many different options available to Terrans (which is why I switched back ~9months ago) it is such a sad sight to see so few players experiment with such awesome units. Still, Banshees don't have the range Vikings have, aren't as cheap, and can't be double-produced from a single building. That's why bio with Banshees just doesn't work; plus, the gas require forces you to go mass Marines, who melt to pretty much everything. In that case, your whole army is very vulnerable to one single storm! As for Ravens and BCs, well, feedback hurts a lot, and after having tried BCs in TvP... they just don't work with bio. They do with mass air, in small numbers, but they don't do the necessary DPS to help bio at all. I mean there's a reason that top GM never go for such compos. And I've seen many VODs where they try, it sometimes work, but it's not consistent at all. The timing window where you get your Starports + techlabs and then start Banshee production leaves you oh so very weak. This is why such styles will never be "standard". There might be a future for Starport units but it won't solve the problem, as those are also pretty micro-intensive, expensive and hardly replaceable. Yoshi Kirishima said he has over 90% winrate in TvP going air terran in masters. It may not work that well in GM but most of the people complaining here are never going to be in GM anyway. If it can work that well at masters level it's obviously not as bad as people like you try to make out.
I probably have a 70% rate myself, but 80% of my games catch the Protoss with his pants down. It's just a tricky build and often a surprise, even for good players.
But mind you, a couple days ago a Toss knew what I was doing and I got raped super hard. I had Banshees, he had Phoenixes. I had to back off and forget harass until I had enough Vikings. He then traded air and while I got some Vikings again he just insta-replenished his army with gateway units with a proxy pylon. GG.
Just ask him yourself, I've been in his thread. Terran air is solid, but not solid enough to be a conventional, standard build, simply because of it's innate weaknesses.
Would you bother playing macro PvT if you knew that you could just tech to Blink and win any standard game when hitting early enough?
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On December 16 2011 10:44 Kukaracha wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 10:35 Plansix wrote:On December 16 2011 10:25 tomatriedes wrote:On December 16 2011 10:17 Kharnage wrote:On December 16 2011 08:55 Wegandi wrote:On December 16 2011 08:50 Smile[PaiN] wrote:On December 16 2011 08:45 syllabic wrote:On December 16 2011 08:24 Dandel Ion wrote:
From a purely bio(psycho)logical standpoint, it's obvious that everybody thinks their race is weakest, since we remember negative things better than positive.
Which was useful in the jungle or whatever, but it does make people annoying whiners now that we wouldn't need this trait anymore. I thought terran was fine before all the nerfs. And buffs to the other races. Now terran is far and away the worst race in the game. You have to outplay your opponent by a huge margin to win as terran. Terran is really the only race where you can outplay your opponent and still lose. Posts like these give me a headache reading teamliquid. The game is pretty well balanced and I have gotten high master with all three races, one race hasn't seemed too much easier then other for me. When i see bronze-diamond players complaining about balance on teamliquid forums I dont know if i should laugh or get mad. Yeah, because DDE and BeastyQT, plus a whole bunch of other mid-higher masters and GM all says same thing about TvP they must obviously be bronze noobies. How about read the critiques and respond with rational inquiry instead of ad hominem character assassinations? You see nothing wrong with Protoss being able to 45 APM crush a Terran who has to use 200-300 APM to come out 'barely' even with superb near perfect micro and macro? All the Protoss know that Archon/Chargelot/Colo/HT takes little to no micro, but a little positioning and spreading and they can largely look away from the screen and still be highly effective especially when their army take so little actions that they can harass/drop you with Warp Prism and you know how hard that is to deal with as Terran when you HAVE to focus on your army or else it all gets melted in .2 seconds by all the Protoss splash? Make Protoss take more actions and skill to play; that's all we are asking. Doesn't DDE not hotkey his rax? I seem to remember day9 doing a daily on him and going "interesting fact, DDE is a nut case" You are exagerating the protoss side of the battle to make your point, but it's starting to get annoying. If a protoss isn't paying attention they will lose the money units and then the game. And I've yet to see anyone get the money storms while not looking at the fight. If you don't focus fire the colossus you're going to lose, there are things you have to do. I'm not saying terran is easier or some shit, i'm just getting tired of this 'protoss just 1a and win' crap. Stop it, it's annoying. Some of these people need to watch Hero's or Huk's stream and make the same ridiculous assertions that protoss players have no micro and no skill. But that would not further the argument that Terran is under powered, so why would they do that? Oh that right, terran isn't underpowered. They are just weaker than the other races in a specific subset of the ladder that is narrowly defined by both skill level and region to fit the arguments of several posters. Really, they are the worst race, require the most AMP and are nearly impossible to do well with. The only reason that terrans have been the most winning race in all major events is because the terran players are just so much better than zerg and protoss players. This is all well known fact. Why? Because it has been posted over and over and over on TL for nearly a month. Because if you say something enough times and cherry pick your evidence, it becomes true. Please don't disregard our complaints just because a bunch of idiots simply thinks that all races are easy and Terran is impossible. However, regarding pro players skills, the idea is precisely that Terran has a great potential in their hands, but is very hard for less-skilled people.
To be very frank, that argument is complete horse shit. Saying that a race is easier at a specific skill level or set is nothing to complain about. At silver level stim pushes seem really busted against protoss, but you don't see them in here asking for a buff. At bronze the 6 pool is amazing and most likely an instant win. Should they change that too?
If the Korea's are amazing, you should try to copy them and be as good as them. That is what I do when I watch players like Huk and Hero.
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On December 16 2011 10:36 Kukaracha wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 10:23 jrdn wrote:On December 16 2011 10:07 Kukaracha wrote:On December 16 2011 09:54 jrdn wrote:
High diamond T here. I too have noticed a large drop in T's on ladder for the past ~8 months or so.
As for the TvP concerns, I too had difficulty against the P's until I tried using different unit comps. Many T's seem to be complaining about how their endgame comp is no good (mmmvg). This is distressing for 2 reasons. First, they are using a midgame comp and calling it a late game comp. That would be like a zerg complaining that their late game comp of ling/bling/muta has a tough time dealing with fully maxed T armies. The second distressing concern is many Terran's reluctance to try new unit comps. This observation is usually met with some sort of complaint about the impotence of mech, all the while neglecting their third unit producing structure....that is..the one that can produce the largest number of different units. Oh I'm a sky Terran too. But don't fool yourself, it's extremely hard to pull off at higher levels. Most of these builds autolose to Blink Stalkers, sometimes 3Gate Stargate. It is also very hard to pull off against Archons and HTs like mentioned before. It's also very hard to pull off against an appropriate response: double Stargate. They don't really need to outmatch your Viking count. They just need to make you do a bunch of useless Vikings to crush you with a second attack. And as of the Obs sniping, well, that's just like 1-1-1: it's a trick. Just a trick that might win you the game. I don't use it, because well, you never get better using tricks. It's no different than going 3Gate DT or Hatch cancel into Roach rush every single game. I meant early blink, of course. Certainly there are challenges with any build, however, I contend that utilizing the starport more will certainly achieve a "playable" position. I posit that terrans have been stuck on heavy bio play due to their reliance on heavy bio openings. Most players feel safer throwing down more rax so that they are safer now, as opposed to teching up (or they have had some success jamming mm down the throats of protoss in the early game). I do believe heavy starport play achieves a much more winnable position than pure bio w/ non air-to-ground air support. There are many ways to incorporate the starport into your play which can give your air play depth. On one end of the spectrum we have Pure Air while on the other end we have a bio comp with banshees mixed in instead of vikings. There are strategies with BC's, some with Ravens, some with both. There are so many different options available to Terrans (which is why I switched back ~9months ago) it is such a sad sight to see so few players experiment with such awesome units. Still, Banshees don't have the range Vikings have, aren't as cheap, and can't be double-produced from a single building. That's why bio with Banshees just doesn't work; plus, the gas require forces you to go mass Marines, who melt to pretty much everything. In that case, your whole army is very vulnerable to one single storm! As for Ravens and BCs, well, feedback hurts a lot, and after having tried BCs in TvP... they just don't work with bio. They do with mass air, in small numbers, but they don't do the necessary DPS to help bio at all. I mean there's a reason that top GM never go for such compos. And I've seen many VODs where they try, it sometimes work, but it's not consistent at all. The timing window where you get your Starports + techlabs and then start Banshee production leaves you oh so very weak. This is why such styles will never be "standard". There might be a future for Starport units but it won't solve the problem, as those are also pretty micro-intensive, expensive and hardly replaceable.
First, banshees are cheaper on gas than vikings (single port banshee production: 150min;100gas / minute, single port viking production: 214min;107gas/min). Furthermore, you can have the same bio comp (if you like that style) if you produce double banshees as if you produced reactor vikings (starting cost for banshees is 150min, 100 gas more due to extra port). The only difference is you will have fewer banshees than vikings; you could have 6 vikings or 4 banshees after 2 min. The colossus dps for 6 vikings = 60dps (-6dps per armor upgrade). The colossus dps for 4 banshees = 76.8 dps (-6.4dps per armor upgrade). Therefore, the only advantage you have with vikings is +3 range and a larger cumulative health pool (viking 125 hp, banshees 140 hp). Meanwhile, with the banshees you have the advantage of killing colossus faster and then using a strong dps unit directly onto remaining army (not even considering cloak). In conclusion, that's why banshees with bio works better than vikings with bio (excluding stargate play).
Second, your argument from authority is not valid. Top T's may have not fully analyzed banshees (or other air units). Obviously the top terrans have spent much time with the game, however, I contend a large portion of that time goes to developing mechanics and other essential skills while principle of the game may have been neglected.
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Then the game should only be balanced around pro players? I think Blizzard strongly disagrees with you.
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On December 16 2011 10:54 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 10:38 syllabic wrote:On December 16 2011 10:35 Plansix wrote:On December 16 2011 10:25 tomatriedes wrote:On December 16 2011 10:17 Kharnage wrote:On December 16 2011 08:55 Wegandi wrote:On December 16 2011 08:50 Smile[PaiN] wrote:On December 16 2011 08:45 syllabic wrote:On December 16 2011 08:24 Dandel Ion wrote:
From a purely bio(psycho)logical standpoint, it's obvious that everybody thinks their race is weakest, since we remember negative things better than positive.
Which was useful in the jungle or whatever, but it does make people annoying whiners now that we wouldn't need this trait anymore. I thought terran was fine before all the nerfs. And buffs to the other races. Now terran is far and away the worst race in the game. You have to outplay your opponent by a huge margin to win as terran. Terran is really the only race where you can outplay your opponent and still lose. Posts like these give me a headache reading teamliquid. The game is pretty well balanced and I have gotten high master with all three races, one race hasn't seemed too much easier then other for me. When i see bronze-diamond players complaining about balance on teamliquid forums I dont know if i should laugh or get mad. Yeah, because DDE and BeastyQT, plus a whole bunch of other mid-higher masters and GM all says same thing about TvP they must obviously be bronze noobies. How about read the critiques and respond with rational inquiry instead of ad hominem character assassinations? You see nothing wrong with Protoss being able to 45 APM crush a Terran who has to use 200-300 APM to come out 'barely' even with superb near perfect micro and macro? All the Protoss know that Archon/Chargelot/Colo/HT takes little to no micro, but a little positioning and spreading and they can largely look away from the screen and still be highly effective especially when their army take so little actions that they can harass/drop you with Warp Prism and you know how hard that is to deal with as Terran when you HAVE to focus on your army or else it all gets melted in .2 seconds by all the Protoss splash? Make Protoss take more actions and skill to play; that's all we are asking. Doesn't DDE not hotkey his rax? I seem to remember day9 doing a daily on him and going "interesting fact, DDE is a nut case" You are exagerating the protoss side of the battle to make your point, but it's starting to get annoying. If a protoss isn't paying attention they will lose the money units and then the game. And I've yet to see anyone get the money storms while not looking at the fight. If you don't focus fire the colossus you're going to lose, there are things you have to do. I'm not saying terran is easier or some shit, i'm just getting tired of this 'protoss just 1a and win' crap. Stop it, it's annoying. Some of these people need to watch Hero's or Huk's stream and make the same ridiculous assertions that protoss players have no micro and no skill. But that would not further the argument that Terran is under powered, so why would they do that? Oh that right, terran isn't underpowered. They are just weaker than the other races in a specific subset of the ladder that is narrowly defined by both skill level and region to fit the arguments of several posters. Really, they are the worst race, require the most AMP and are nearly impossible to do well with. The only reason that terrans have been the most winning race in all major events is because the terran players are just so much better than zerg and protoss players. This is all well known fact. Why? Because it has been posted over and over and over on TL for nearly a month. Because if you say something enough times and cherry pick your evidence, it becomes true. Zerg is the no-micro race. Protoss is just overpowered. And all the tournaments that terran do well at are the same 3-4 people, and they are korean pros who play 12 hours a day. So if you don't live in a korean practice house and train every waking moment, play another race. And Nestea was winning gsl's when zerg was "underpowered." And MC was winning GSLs when protoss was "underpowered". You already got your buffs, you don't need to play the protoss pity card any more. I find it hilarious that some people think its INCONCEIVABLE that terran might be underpowered. Despite the fact that next to nobody plays it anymore. You can watch any TvZ or TvP that goes to lategame and see there is a serious power disparity with terran lategame armies compared to either other race. But people take it for granted or something that terran should just lose if the game goes on longer than 15 minutes or 3 bases. I find his hilarious that a small number of players have created a massive theory on TL based on the some limited, cherry picked stats to prove that their race is weakest in their specific league, which they happen to be in. The myth keeps getting bigger and bigger. First it was that there were few terrans in GM. Then fewer successful terrans outside of Korea. Then it grew to terrans are dropping off the ladder like some rare endangered cat. Now it has become that terran requires 300 amp to simply fight a protoss in a main battle. Now your argument is that only players in Korea who practice 12 hours a day are doing well and everyone else is dying. None of it is based off of fact or evidence beyond a website that allows you to view stats from a specific region or area. It is just people posting over and over how hard their race is and yelling at protoss and zerg players that they got their buffs and they should shut up.
The only thing thats being explicitly stated in this thread is that Terrans are a lot lower in number on the ladder.
While the 300 apm thing isn't something i really believe, it is fairly evident that foreign T's have been losing out in tourney's left and right. Hell, the fact that dde has popped into this thread and agreed with what has been said should be fairly evident that it is not something that can really be dismissed lightly.
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Terran requires much more understanding of mechanics to be succesful with, where as the z/p counterparts do have SOME things (whereas P has ALOT) they can just constantly abuse over and over even if the player isn't that good.
i am not talking about terran weak or protoss op or zerg, etc.
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dont worry terran. ill always be faithful
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On December 16 2011 11:03 jrdn wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 10:36 Kukaracha wrote:On December 16 2011 10:23 jrdn wrote:On December 16 2011 10:07 Kukaracha wrote:On December 16 2011 09:54 jrdn wrote:
High diamond T here. I too have noticed a large drop in T's on ladder for the past ~8 months or so.
As for the TvP concerns, I too had difficulty against the P's until I tried using different unit comps. Many T's seem to be complaining about how their endgame comp is no good (mmmvg). This is distressing for 2 reasons. First, they are using a midgame comp and calling it a late game comp. That would be like a zerg complaining that their late game comp of ling/bling/muta has a tough time dealing with fully maxed T armies. The second distressing concern is many Terran's reluctance to try new unit comps. This observation is usually met with some sort of complaint about the impotence of mech, all the while neglecting their third unit producing structure....that is..the one that can produce the largest number of different units. Oh I'm a sky Terran too. But don't fool yourself, it's extremely hard to pull off at higher levels. Most of these builds autolose to Blink Stalkers, sometimes 3Gate Stargate. It is also very hard to pull off against Archons and HTs like mentioned before. It's also very hard to pull off against an appropriate response: double Stargate. They don't really need to outmatch your Viking count. They just need to make you do a bunch of useless Vikings to crush you with a second attack. And as of the Obs sniping, well, that's just like 1-1-1: it's a trick. Just a trick that might win you the game. I don't use it, because well, you never get better using tricks. It's no different than going 3Gate DT or Hatch cancel into Roach rush every single game. I meant early blink, of course. Certainly there are challenges with any build, however, I contend that utilizing the starport more will certainly achieve a "playable" position. I posit that terrans have been stuck on heavy bio play due to their reliance on heavy bio openings. Most players feel safer throwing down more rax so that they are safer now, as opposed to teching up (or they have had some success jamming mm down the throats of protoss in the early game). I do believe heavy starport play achieves a much more winnable position than pure bio w/ non air-to-ground air support. There are many ways to incorporate the starport into your play which can give your air play depth. On one end of the spectrum we have Pure Air while on the other end we have a bio comp with banshees mixed in instead of vikings. There are strategies with BC's, some with Ravens, some with both. There are so many different options available to Terrans (which is why I switched back ~9months ago) it is such a sad sight to see so few players experiment with such awesome units. Still, Banshees don't have the range Vikings have, aren't as cheap, and can't be double-produced from a single building. That's why bio with Banshees just doesn't work; plus, the gas require forces you to go mass Marines, who melt to pretty much everything. In that case, your whole army is very vulnerable to one single storm! As for Ravens and BCs, well, feedback hurts a lot, and after having tried BCs in TvP... they just don't work with bio. They do with mass air, in small numbers, but they don't do the necessary DPS to help bio at all. I mean there's a reason that top GM never go for such compos. And I've seen many VODs where they try, it sometimes work, but it's not consistent at all. The timing window where you get your Starports + techlabs and then start Banshee production leaves you oh so very weak. This is why such styles will never be "standard". There might be a future for Starport units but it won't solve the problem, as those are also pretty micro-intensive, expensive and hardly replaceable. First, banshees are cheaper on gas than vikings (single port banshee production: 150min;100gas / minute, single port viking production: 214min;107gas/min). Furthermore, you can have the same bio comp (if you like that style) if you produce double banshees as if you produced reactor vikings (starting cost for banshees is 150min, 100 gas more due to extra port). The only difference is you will have fewer banshees than vikings; you could have 6 vikings or 4 banshees after 2 min. The colossus dps for 6 vikings = 60dps (-6dps per armor upgrade). The colossus dps for 4 banshees = 76.8 dps (-6.4dps per armor upgrade). Therefore, the only advantage you have with vikings is +3 range and a larger cumulative health pool (viking 125 hp, banshees 140 hp). Meanwhile, with the banshees you have the advantage of killing colossus faster and then using a strong dps unit directly onto remaining army (not even considering cloak). In conclusion, that's why banshees with bio works better than vikings with bio (excluding stargate play). Second, your argument from authority is not valid. Top T's may have not fully analyzed banshees (or other air units). Obviously the top terrans have spent much time with the game, however, I contend a large portion of that time goes to developing mechanics and other essential skills while principle of the game may have been neglected.
Whoah, wait, wait a second.
So, when you play bio, you just let your Vikings sit there and die to Stalkers?
Because, in reality, you're kiting the toss, right? So what are the Banshees doing, alone in the Toss's face while your bio runs away? They die. The difference in range is key, because Banshees and Stalkers actually have the same.
And what's with the gas/minute argument? Bio requires very little gas, if anything you'll have plenty when your nat kicks in. The gas problem with early mass Banshees is - well, the mass, the 4 Starports, the techlabs, and the Banshees themselves. Vikings on the other hand are easier to get, and you can easily mass them when thinking about a third base.
Thinking that pro players never consider alternative strategies is just... I mean, TLO, Whitera doing Mothership 4 Gates on his stream, etc, etc. It's out there, just watch.
Just go up to them and tell them "hey, guys, I just solved TvP". Brilliant.
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On December 16 2011 10:41 Active.815 wrote:
I remember either earlier in this thread or a while ago in a different thread, there was a really good analysis on why terrans are leaving which is that
1) Terran units are on average slower then both of the other races, which punishes you a lot more for harassment and encourages turtling
2) Macro games take a while for terrans to win (tvz you need to tank crawl, tvp is a lot of dancing, tvt is tvt) which means that a lot more effort goes into the longer games versus the deathball style of P and sometimes Z.
3) Because it feels as though more effort is put in by terrans when they lose it is more frustrating because they don't have a specific deathball strategy-in truth, almost all engagements rely on splitting your army carefully and running away from what Z/P can throw at you because if you don't stutter step/split against chargelots and banelings you get destroyed easily
4) Wins can often also be frustrating because for so long Terrans were called OP, and this mentality sometimes persists into today and a lot of times when terran wins its followed by balance whines
5) Terrans also get frustrated because they are nerfed pretty much every patch~with every patch the game gets harder for them, while other races are buffed at the same time in often unnecessary/ridiculous ways (ground weapons for robo and gate tech just as expensive as bio weapon upgrades that only apply to one tech tree T_T)
It was much more elaborate then that, but thats the best im willing to do because T_T homework ;_;
I really think #3 has a lot to do with the disappearance of Terrans from the levels that we've been witnessing. When the metagame shifts and you notice your opponent doing weird stuff, Zerg and Protoss have a long term strategy to gravitate towards. For Terran, there isn't really a powerful endgame strategy to gravitate towards. You have to find the opening in a strat you've never seen before, and that can be a daunting task for those who don't have the vast game experience.
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EPT
