EPTTerrans vanishing from the ladder. - Page 68
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CosmosXAM
United States121 Posts
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Netsky
Australia1155 Posts
People are either switching or stopping altogether because Terran is ultra hard. | ||
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Treziel
United Kingdom123 Posts
On December 15 2011 21:51 Xalorian wrote: Sjow? Select? Major? Demuslim is great and he will probably have great result in the future. Same with QxC... but they are not good examples, since QxC is back to school and Demuslim is just back on the scene from a super long break without a PC. Sjow is in decline in my opinion and has not produced any major tournament tournament results this year, although he has won a few minor tournaments. SelecT probably has the most impressive recent result with his 2nd to IdrA in the Asus ROG tournament which had a strong lineup, however in my personal opinion he is not as strong as Kas, but it is certainly close to call that one. Major/Kitty/CuteAngel/whatever is definitely a talented up and coming Terran but is yet to produce any substantial tournament results. I would certainly put him in my top 5 foreign Terrans which would be something like: Kas Select ThorZain Major ??? I can't really put anyone at number 5 because it is way too close between DeMuslim, Sjow, Qxc, Beastyqt, Happy - they are all decent but about equal. It's a bit of a gamble putting Major at 4 but from what I've seen of him he looks to be a cut above the guys I just listed at 5, if DeMuslim can get back into shape I'd hope he can break top 2 again in the next 3 months or so but we will see. I definitely don't think he is any shape to be taking on Korean players right now, and to be honest that applies to all these guys - if any of them were to go to GSL code A qualifiers for instance they would most likely get absolutely demolished unless they got a very lucky draw against weak opponents. In fact I just remembered that SelecT did go to GSL and yes, he lost pretty horribly  Here's hoping we get a foreign T to show us the way soon! | ||
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Kukaracha
France1954 Posts
On December 16 2011 09:47 xrapture wrote: At the end of the day everyone will always say their race is the worst and the other races are easier to play. It's been the same way for the past year, I don't know why these threads keep popping up. Sometimes it was real. I mean, the early Zerg really had a big problem. Remember Steppes of War? Close spawns Lost Temple? Free Bunkers, faster Barracks, faster Reapers? Zergs whined a lot back then, and looking back I'm pretty much sure it was 100% justified. I mean, don't just dismiss what we're saying. Please listen. I'm telling you man, it's difficult. Terran has a lot of potential. MKP can kill a dozen lings and 4 Banelings + a ton of drones with one single drop. And the game feels as if it was balanced that way, while diamond or master players have no way to make such things work. | ||
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jrdn
United States132 Posts
As for the TvP concerns, I too had difficulty against the P's until I tried using different unit comps. Many T's seem to be complaining about how their endgame comp is no good (mmmvg). This is distressing for 2 reasons. First, they are using a midgame comp and calling it a late game comp. That would be like a zerg complaining that their late game comp of ling/bling/muta has a tough time dealing with fully maxed T armies. The second distressing concern is many Terran's reluctance to try new unit comps. This observation is usually met with some sort of complaint about the impotence of mech, all the while neglecting their third unit producing structure....that is..the one that can produce the largest number of different units. | ||
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syllabic
29 Posts
On December 16 2011 09:54 jrdn wrote: High diamond T here. I too have noticed a large drop in T's on ladder for the past ~8 months or so. As for the TvP concerns, I too had difficulty against the P's until I tried using different unit comps. Many T's seem to be complaining about how their endgame comp is no good (mmmvg). This is distressing for 2 reasons. First, they are using a midgame comp and calling it a late game comp. That would be like a zerg complaining that their late game comp of ling/bling/muta has a tough time dealing with fully maxed T armies. The second distressing concern is many Terran's reluctance to try new unit comps. This observation is usually met with some sort of complaint about the impotence of mech, all the while neglecting their third unit producing structure....that is..the one that can produce the largest number of different units. I've used a ton of stargate play in TvP recently. It has a bunch of problems: Extremely weak to archons and HT. Prompts the protoss to skip colo and go straight to HT, so they can handle any bio + any banshees with ease. Extremely gas intensive and you will have tons of minerals left over doing nothing. Gets rocked by phoenixes really bad. You can win with stargate play but you still have to do a ton of damage early, just like with bio. | ||
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nokz88
Brazil1253 Posts
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Jacopana
El Salvador210 Posts
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Treziel
United Kingdom123 Posts
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Kukaracha
France1954 Posts
On December 16 2011 09:54 jrdn wrote: High diamond T here. I too have noticed a large drop in T's on ladder for the past ~8 months or so. As for the TvP concerns, I too had difficulty against the P's until I tried using different unit comps. Many T's seem to be complaining about how their endgame comp is no good (mmmvg). This is distressing for 2 reasons. First, they are using a midgame comp and calling it a late game comp. That would be like a zerg complaining that their late game comp of ling/bling/muta has a tough time dealing with fully maxed T armies. The second distressing concern is many Terran's reluctance to try new unit comps. This observation is usually met with some sort of complaint about the impotence of mech, all the while neglecting their third unit producing structure....that is..the one that can produce the largest number of different units. Oh I'm a sky Terran too. But don't fool yourself, it's extremely hard to pull off at higher levels. Most of these builds autolose to Blink Stalkers, sometimes 3Gate Stargate. It is also very hard to pull off against Archons and HTs like mentioned before. It's also very hard to pull off against an appropriate response: double Stargate. They don't really need to outmatch your Viking count. They just need to make you do a bunch of useless Vikings to crush you with a second attack. And as of the Obs sniping, well, that's just like 1-1-1: it's a trick. Just a trick that might win you the game. I don't use it, because well, you never get better using tricks. It's no different than going 3Gate DT or Hatch cancel into Roach rush every single game. I meant early blink, of course. | ||
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sickoota
Canada918 Posts
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tripper688
United States569 Posts
On December 16 2011 10:05 Treziel wrote: Just a question: If most players from BW, who, pretty much everyone agrees, are mechanically more proficient than current players, switch and play T, should T continue to receive nerfs based on the fact that the BW pro's with amazing mechanics play the race and dominate? This is one of the problems with trying to balance the game just based on winrate at the very top tier level, the fact that MVP might become unbeatable with a slight buff to Terran - is that really an issue? Flash is close to unbeatable in BW, but noone is asking for nerfs to T. Just throwing that out there. You're right, we should nerf PvZ in BW because Bisu is too good at that matchup lol. And in any case, I don't remember Z getting nerfed when Savior was stomping or T getting nerfed with the three bonjwas before that. | ||
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xrapture
United States1644 Posts
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Kharnage
Australia920 Posts
On December 16 2011 08:55 Wegandi wrote: Yeah, because DDE and BeastyQT, plus a whole bunch of other mid-higher masters and GM all says same thing about TvP they must obviously be bronze noobies. How about read the critiques and respond with rational inquiry instead of ad hominem character assassinations? You see nothing wrong with Protoss being able to 45 APM crush a Terran who has to use 200-300 APM to come out 'barely' even with superb near perfect micro and macro? All the Protoss know that Archon/Chargelot/Colo/HT takes little to no micro, but a little positioning and spreading and they can largely look away from the screen and still be highly effective especially when their army take so little actions that they can harass/drop you with Warp Prism and you know how hard that is to deal with as Terran when you HAVE to focus on your army or else it all gets melted in .2 seconds by all the Protoss splash? Make Protoss take more actions and skill to play; that's all we are asking. Doesn't DDE not hotkey his rax? I seem to remember day9 doing a daily on him and going "interesting fact, DDE is a nut case" You are exagerating the protoss side of the battle to make your point, but it's starting to get annoying. If a protoss isn't paying attention they will lose the money units and then the game. And I've yet to see anyone get the money storms while not looking at the fight. If you don't focus fire the colossus you're going to lose, there are things you have to do. I'm not saying terran is easier or some shit, i'm just getting tired of this 'protoss just 1a and win' crap. Stop it, it's annoying. | ||
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Scila
Canada1849 Posts
On December 16 2011 06:27 Neurosis wrote: They aren't going to buff Terran because even still we have korean terran players winning gsl. And honestly I firmly believe that no matter how many more times they nerf Terran that top level korean pros will still find ways to win with it. So yeah, if you aren't an ex bw korean pro then you should probably switch to protoss or zerg if you want to win more. If you don't care so much about winning and you honestly find the gimmicky play style of terran a lot of fun to play then by all means, keep grinding away at it. They don't need to buff Terran. They need to either A) redesign it so it is more accessible to people between Plat-GM (i.e. everyone who is not a Korean Terran pro) or B) make Zerg and Protoss more mechanically demanding so that all three races take about the same amount of skill and hard work to play. It's really frustrating and unfair that you have to play so much better and do so many more things correctly as Terran to even keep up with Zerg and Toss. This is why Terrans are disappearing in these leagues, and why many Terran pros are doing very well by switching to Toss. | ||
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Treziel
United Kingdom123 Posts
On December 16 2011 10:09 tripper688 wrote: You're right, we should nerf PvZ in BW because Bisu is too good at that matchup lol. And in any case, I don't remember Z getting nerfed when Savior was stomping or T getting nerfed with the three bonjwas before that. Totally, I can't help feeling that the constant patching of SC 2 is getting in the way of finding true balance. All that happens right now is whatever the flavour of the month strategy that is causing players most trouble is, a month later, usually after the problem has started to correct itself anyway, a patch is released which causes further imbalances somewhere down the line once the metagame changes. Take the latest patch - it really didn't change a lot, aside from the ghost emp radius nerf, the P upgrade cost changes were nothing - but suddenly so many P are going double forge which was a flavour of the month strategy a good 3-5 months ago, and thinking hmm actually this strategy is good and I'm winning. The changes in T v P have not really resulted from the latest patch but to a shifting metagame - in a relatively new game you would expect the metagame to have volatile shifts and I don't think the constant patching is helping that - in fact I think it is hindering because possibly truely imbalanced strategies get patched before it is even properly worked out if they are really imbalanced or not. Good example is 5 rax reaper which was incredibly strong but even before the patch came which fixed that Zergs had pretty much worked out how to stop it, so was that patch really needed? If we'd played on with that patch for 3 or 4 months would the whole 5 rax reaper imba stuff have gone away on it's own? Who knows, I just find it interesting to pose these questions. | ||
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jrdn
United States132 Posts
On December 16 2011 10:07 Kukaracha wrote: Oh I'm a sky Terran too. But don't fool yourself, it's extremely hard to pull off at higher levels. Most of these builds autolose to Blink Stalkers, sometimes 3Gate Stargate. It is also very hard to pull off against Archons and HTs like mentioned before. It's also very hard to pull off against an appropriate response: double Stargate. They don't really need to outmatch your Viking count. They just need to make you do a bunch of useless Vikings to crush you with a second attack. And as of the Obs sniping, well, that's just like 1-1-1: it's a trick. Just a trick that might win you the game. I don't use it, because well, you never get better using tricks. It's no different than going 3Gate DT or Hatch cancel into Roach rush every single game. I meant early blink, of course. Certainly there are challenges with any build, however, I contend that utilizing the starport more will certainly achieve a "playable" position. I posit that terrans have been stuck on heavy bio play due to their reliance on heavy bio openings. Most players feel safer throwing down more rax so that they are safer now, as opposed to teching up (or they have had some success jamming mm down the throats of protoss in the early game). I do believe heavy starport play achieves a much more winnable position than pure bio w/ non air-to-ground air support. There are many ways to incorporate the starport into your play which can give your air play depth. On one end of the spectrum we have Pure Air while on the other end we have a bio comp with banshees mixed in instead of vikings. There are strategies with BC's, some with Ravens, some with both. There are so many different options available to Terrans (which is why I switched back ~9months ago) it is such a sad sight to see so few players experiment with such awesome units. | ||
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tomatriedes
New Zealand5356 Posts
On December 16 2011 10:17 Kharnage wrote: Doesn't DDE not hotkey his rax? I seem to remember day9 doing a daily on him and going "interesting fact, DDE is a nut case" You are exagerating the protoss side of the battle to make your point, but it's starting to get annoying. If a protoss isn't paying attention they will lose the money units and then the game. And I've yet to see anyone get the money storms while not looking at the fight. If you don't focus fire the colossus you're going to lose, there are things you have to do. I'm not saying terran is easier or some shit, i'm just getting tired of this 'protoss just 1a and win' crap. Stop it, it's annoying. Some of these people need to watch Hero's or Huk's stream and make the same ridiculous assertions that protoss players have no micro and no skill. | ||
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black3200
Canada74 Posts
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Asturas
Finland587 Posts
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