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On December 16 2011 15:07 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 14:59 Tingles wrote:On December 16 2011 14:20 Klyberess wrote:
TvP is brutally unforgiving (for T). PvT is brutally unforgiving ( for P). Thanks for your assertion. I appreciate that you used facts and examples to back it up. Because engaging a Protoss army is really hard. You have two units that can outright kill a bioball if we don't have enough of the counters. Protoss has cheaper upgrades and can get them much faster than Terran. If we make one mistake in micro, we can lose a lot of our army due to splash damage. And as you get higher in leagues, Terrans need better multi-tasking, and micro to keep up with Protoss armies.
Miss 1 FF and your dead. Don't go colossus? Emps (which have higher range than feedback) will get your HT's and then MMM will roll your army. Same argument man. So who's right? Your assertion or mine? Or why don't' we just agree that both are susceptible to micro mistakes, and as you get higher in leagues all the races get harder to play because your opponents are harder.
And i'll just that it's not an argument that your race is hard because if you dont' have enough of the right counter, you just get rolled. If i play vs Muta Ling, if i don't have enough of the right counter (HT's ) i get rolled. If i play in PvP and we both go robo colossus, if i dont' have enough of the right counter, i get rolled. It's not an argument that your race is shit, your argument is from frustration.
I agree about the upgrades, but that remains to be seen just yet whether it's actually a bad or a good thing .. patch has only been out what ... a month?
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On December 16 2011 15:17 Surili wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 15:07 Chaggi wrote:On December 16 2011 14:59 Tingles wrote:On December 16 2011 14:20 Klyberess wrote:
TvP is brutally unforgiving (for T). PvT is brutally unforgiving ( for P). Thanks for your assertion. I appreciate that you used facts and examples to back it up. Because engaging a Protoss army is really hard. You have two units that can outright kill a bioball if we don't have enough of the counters. Protoss has cheaper upgrades and can get them much faster than Terran. If we make one mistake in micro, we can lose a lot of our army due to splash damage. And as you get higher in leagues, Terrans need better multi-tasking, and micro to keep up with Protoss armies. And how can that not be said to be true of marines and marauders? Stop taking specific examples and trying to apply them to whole matchups. Like Day9 was saying in his daily today, it removes from the thousands of different situations that can occur, in which some "counters" are actually we against the thing that they are meant to "counter". Just stop it. All the races have their own strengths/weaknesses. Some parts are easier/harder than others. Also, some players are more aligns with some playstyles than others, so naturally they find other things harder. Get over yourselves. Just to help, i may never experience how hard it must be for zergs to hit their injects perfectly, because the warp gate mechanic isn't as punishing, likewise, they won't understand how hard REALLY good forcefields cast rapidly in a non wasteful way can be. Because the races are different and it is good that way. Note, i left Terran out not because i believe they don't have hard things to do, but because i do not wish to fuel a fire.
God you're so dense I'll try my best to explain it to you. OF COURSE races have weaknesses and strengths. THAT'S NOT THE POINT. The point is Terran requires insane mechanical ability to keep up with the other two races, especially Protoss.
And no, you can't say "oh because you don't play Protoss you don't know how hard it is for us". Guess what, I've played every race, and I watch pro player streams and tournaments, and when I play a Protoss on ladder, I know exactly how "difficult" it is. You cannot compare the Protoss macro, micro and especially multitasking requirements to Terran. Not to mention, if a Protoss fucks up with his army, it doesn't just die because it requires so little control and you can always pop down emergency FFs after you're in a bad spot. If you mismicro or look away for one second from your army as Terran, it will melt to banelings, Colossus, storm, or chargelots.
Sorry but the way Protoss plays right now below GM you can't say it's "hard'. You just sit there afk macroing chronoboosting out upgrades while the Terran has to do a million things to try and keep up.
That's not a problem for top level Korean Terrans because they practice 8+ hours a day and are insanely good. But for non-pro players like me it's impossible to keep up with Toss and to lesser extent Zerg.
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On December 16 2011 15:24 Tingles wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 15:07 Chaggi wrote:On December 16 2011 14:59 Tingles wrote:On December 16 2011 14:20 Klyberess wrote:
TvP is brutally unforgiving (for T). PvT is brutally unforgiving ( for P). Thanks for your assertion. I appreciate that you used facts and examples to back it up. Because engaging a Protoss army is really hard. You have two units that can outright kill a bioball if we don't have enough of the counters. Protoss has cheaper upgrades and can get them much faster than Terran. If we make one mistake in micro, we can lose a lot of our army due to splash damage. And as you get higher in leagues, Terrans need better multi-tasking, and micro to keep up with Protoss armies. Miss 1 FF and your dead. Don't go colossus? Emps (which have higher range than feedback) will get your HT's and then MMM will roll your army. Same argument man. So who's right? Your assertion or mine? Or why don't' we just agree that both are susceptible to micro mistakes, and as you get higher in leagues all the races get harder to play because your opponents are harder. And i'll just that it's not an argument that your race is hard because if you dont' have enough of the right counter, you just get rolled. If i play vs Muta Ling, if i don't have enough of the right counter (HT's ) i get rolled. If i play in PvP and we both go robo colossus, if i dont' have enough of the right counter, i get rolled. It's not an argument that your race is shit, your argument is from frustration. I agree about the upgrades, but that remains to be seen just yet whether it's actually a bad or a good thing .. patch has only been out what ... a month?
The difference is that protoss micro is fire and forget. Throw down forcefields at the beginning of a battle, maybe split templars, cast storm a couple times, make archons, maybe blink stalkers to kill vikings... Only one of those requires more than a two actions to complete each action (F-click, T-click, B-click, and C are all pretty damn simple). Also, most P can be rather rash with FF's because you get a lot of them by lategame if your sentries have been fairly naptastic for the midgame.
Terran focus fire/stutter step/split micro has to be applied for the whole battle, and is constantly changed by storm/FF and take way more attention over the span of a big battle
EDIT: Scila it would be nice if you calmed down 
Rational statements are a lot better then going !@#$ !@$#$#@$@$#@%^%&^ you! @_@
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I was frustrated a while with Terran (I started initially as random), the play style for Terran is vastly different from Z/P. My hand speed was just too slow to micro well enough when I finally settled on playing just Terran. Eventually, I figured it out and now have a much better grasp on the race in general.
Terran can mass up decently against Zerg, but the race is ALL about positioning, you have to choose your battles and predict enemy movements if you want to stay alive/have economically favorable engagements. TvT actually demonstrates this beautifully with siege tank placement. Zerg and Protoss obviously must take positioning into account, but aren't punished as hard as Terran for misplaced tanks/bio balls/drops. But the engagements go extremely well for a Terran who is properly set up.
Composition switches are harder for Terran, we certainly have a solid scouting tool with scan, but often our builds just demand the MULE drop to keep up production. So if you aren't aware of your enemies army composition you could easily be taken by some non-standard tech choice. We don't have a "massing backup" option that Zergs and Protoss have with pooled up larvae or tons of warp gates ready to instantly bring 20 stalkers in to reinforce. The production is the trickiest bit with Terran, you really need to sneak in extra production facilities once you've gotten 3 bases but the timing for that depends on how the match is going so that never feels like a smooth decision.
If the Protoss decides to omit colossi it's easy to engage almost anywhere anytime once ghosts are out, EMP is just so good against any gateway composition. And I always, always use drops to safely reposition/expand. Sometimes just the threat of drops is enough to pin an opponent sufficiently to get in the correct positions.
I think ultimately the reason Terran is so unpopular on the Ladder is multifaceted. Including (but not limited to) Terran's are humans which could be viewed as boring, everyone gets a healthy dose of Terran in the campaign, there's an overarching culture of "Marines/Mules Imba," and other issues.
That said, so long as no more serious nerfs come our way, Terran is still one of the top three best races in SC2. I very much enjoy the race now that I've gotten enough skill to exploit most of the races strengths.
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I was gonna respond but the above 2 responses were good. It takes more mechanics from a Terran player to play as effectively as a Protoss player. That's all. Terrans are more micro intensive of a race. It's not whining, but I think it's a very valid statement. It just means we have to do more things to throw Protoss players off, and that to some people means harder.
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Straight from the horse's mouth:
"We intentionally make different aspects of the game difficult for the different races. We want each of them to have asymmetric advantages and disadvantages that contribute to very different play styles, but still result in a satisfying, balanced game at the end of the day."
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=295494
Can we get it over with the QQ about how my race is harder than yours because I have to click this instead of clicking that?
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On December 16 2011 15:24 Scila wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 15:17 Surili wrote:On December 16 2011 15:07 Chaggi wrote:On December 16 2011 14:59 Tingles wrote:On December 16 2011 14:20 Klyberess wrote:
TvP is brutally unforgiving (for T). PvT is brutally unforgiving ( for P). Thanks for your assertion. I appreciate that you used facts and examples to back it up. Because engaging a Protoss army is really hard. You have two units that can outright kill a bioball if we don't have enough of the counters. Protoss has cheaper upgrades and can get them much faster than Terran. If we make one mistake in micro, we can lose a lot of our army due to splash damage. And as you get higher in leagues, Terrans need better multi-tasking, and micro to keep up with Protoss armies. And how can that not be said to be true of marines and marauders? Stop taking specific examples and trying to apply them to whole matchups. Like Day9 was saying in his daily today, it removes from the thousands of different situations that can occur, in which some "counters" are actually we against the thing that they are meant to "counter". Just stop it. All the races have their own strengths/weaknesses. Some parts are easier/harder than others. Also, some players are more aligns with some playstyles than others, so naturally they find other things harder. Get over yourselves. Just to help, i may never experience how hard it must be for zergs to hit their injects perfectly, because the warp gate mechanic isn't as punishing, likewise, they won't understand how hard REALLY good forcefields cast rapidly in a non wasteful way can be. Because the races are different and it is good that way. Note, i left Terran out not because i believe they don't have hard things to do, but because i do not wish to fuel a fire. God you're so dense I'll try my best to explain it to you. OF COURSE races have weaknesses and strengths. THAT'S NOT THE POINT. The point is Terran requires insane mechanical ability to keep up with the other two races, especially Protoss. And no, you can't say "oh because you don't play Protoss you don't know how hard it is for us". Guess what, I've played every race, and I watch pro player streams and tournaments, and when I play a Protoss on ladder, I know exactly how "difficult" it is. You cannot compare the Protoss macro, micro and especially multitasking requirements to Terran. Not to mention, if a Protoss fucks up with his army, it doesn't just die because it requires so little control and you can always pop down emergency FFs after you're in a bad spot. If you mismicro or look away for one second from your army as Terran, it will melt to banelings, Colossus, storm, or chargelots. Sorry but the way Protoss plays right now below GM you can't say it's "hard'. You just sit there afk macroing chronoboosting out upgrades while the Terran has to do a million things to try and keep up. That's not a problem for top level Korean Terrans because they practice 8+ hours a day and are insanely good. But for non-pro players like me it's impossible to keep up with Toss and to lesser extent Zerg.
As i said, maybe you are better suited to protoss play, only you prefer to play terran. Maybe you are in fact not suited to any race, and so you simply choose to play the way you do.
If what you said were true there would be no strong terran players at the top, because they would need to be putting 10times as much effort in as everyone else. As it is, it is not the case.
Stop whining to make yourself feel better about your inadequacies. I was embarrassed for protoss when my race was doing it, and i was embarrassed for zerg when they were doing it, now it appears to be terran's turn and i am embarrassed for you too.
I would like to say that on the whole terran have done it less than the other two races so far, and to a lesser degree. So maybe you guys are better than us at not whining  (at least most of you)
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From my perspective, protoss micro is: controlling small groups of units to make sure the zealots are always close enough to my stalkers and colossus to take hits away while not allowing all his army to do damage to it at once, while staying close enough to his marine/marauder that they can act as a wall if they decide to charge forward. It's sending out sentries, one of the slowest, weakest units of the game, ahead of your entire army, and trying to get a forcefield off across the entire screen before a ball of stimmed marine marauder can move one inch and cut off enough so that I did more than just waste energy, but not too much so that I lose more than a sentry or two.
Protoss is about dancing colossus and stalkers exactly so that we don't waste our damage by accidentally cancelling the animation, watching the little turrets spin on our immortals frustratingly slowly, about having to play in widescreen when microing phoenix or else there just isn't a wide enough angle buy time trying to keep mutas from killing them en mass. It's about predicting where medivacs and banshees are going to be so that we have enough to save our base from being massacred and enough to hold our front. It's about knowing your units will lose in a straight up fight and your wall will fall instantly to any attack move (but your enemies' will be repaired forever if you don't have your AOE). It's about knowing that when you cast a spell you'll lose the spellcaster and have a diminished effect of the spell unless you sacrifice most of your army to bait your opponent's until standing still under the storms, or trying to keep alive a unit that you can only have one of but whose spell is the only chance you have against a number of lategame enemies.
It's about spamming spells on the minimap hoping that your units are close enough to cast the spell before your army is destroyed and that the AI keeps them spread out enough before the spell gets cast to make a difference, it's about knowing your mineral sink and static defenses are the least efficent in the game, and that you only have one economy spell and only one way to use it. About having to choose between having good micro and macro at any given moment, because you absolutely can't have both....
Terran micro is about alternating between clicking towards the opponent's army and away from the opponents army while pressing 's' every .459 seconds and t occasionally and getting to spam your AOE spell from safety from the back of your army while getting to queue up units in a major engagement and choosing to either have good scouting or only unseige 1/3 of your tanks at once.
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On December 16 2011 15:40 Surili wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 15:24 Scila wrote:On December 16 2011 15:17 Surili wrote:On December 16 2011 15:07 Chaggi wrote:On December 16 2011 14:59 Tingles wrote:On December 16 2011 14:20 Klyberess wrote:
TvP is brutally unforgiving (for T). PvT is brutally unforgiving ( for P). Thanks for your assertion. I appreciate that you used facts and examples to back it up. Because engaging a Protoss army is really hard. You have two units that can outright kill a bioball if we don't have enough of the counters. Protoss has cheaper upgrades and can get them much faster than Terran. If we make one mistake in micro, we can lose a lot of our army due to splash damage. And as you get higher in leagues, Terrans need better multi-tasking, and micro to keep up with Protoss armies. And how can that not be said to be true of marines and marauders? Stop taking specific examples and trying to apply them to whole matchups. Like Day9 was saying in his daily today, it removes from the thousands of different situations that can occur, in which some "counters" are actually we against the thing that they are meant to "counter". Just stop it. All the races have their own strengths/weaknesses. Some parts are easier/harder than others. Also, some players are more aligns with some playstyles than others, so naturally they find other things harder. Get over yourselves. Just to help, i may never experience how hard it must be for zergs to hit their injects perfectly, because the warp gate mechanic isn't as punishing, likewise, they won't understand how hard REALLY good forcefields cast rapidly in a non wasteful way can be. Because the races are different and it is good that way. Note, i left Terran out not because i believe they don't have hard things to do, but because i do not wish to fuel a fire. God you're so dense I'll try my best to explain it to you. OF COURSE races have weaknesses and strengths. THAT'S NOT THE POINT. The point is Terran requires insane mechanical ability to keep up with the other two races, especially Protoss. And no, you can't say "oh because you don't play Protoss you don't know how hard it is for us". Guess what, I've played every race, and I watch pro player streams and tournaments, and when I play a Protoss on ladder, I know exactly how "difficult" it is. You cannot compare the Protoss macro, micro and especially multitasking requirements to Terran. Not to mention, if a Protoss fucks up with his army, it doesn't just die because it requires so little control and you can always pop down emergency FFs after you're in a bad spot. If you mismicro or look away for one second from your army as Terran, it will melt to banelings, Colossus, storm, or chargelots. Sorry but the way Protoss plays right now below GM you can't say it's "hard'. You just sit there afk macroing chronoboosting out upgrades while the Terran has to do a million things to try and keep up. That's not a problem for top level Korean Terrans because they practice 8+ hours a day and are insanely good. But for non-pro players like me it's impossible to keep up with Toss and to lesser extent Zerg. As i said, maybe you are better suited to protoss play, only you prefer to play terran. Maybe you are in fact not suited to any race, and so you simply choose to play the way you do. If what you said were true there would be no strong terran players at the top, because they would need to be putting 10times as much effort in as everyone else. As it is, it is not the case. Stop whining to make yourself feel better about your inadequacies. I was embarrassed for protoss when my race was doing it, and i was embarrassed for zerg when they were doing it, now it appears to be terran's turn and i am embarrassed for you too. I would like to say that on the whole terran have done it less than the other two races so far, and to a lesser degree. So maybe you guys are better than us at not whining (at least most of you)
I'm not really whining. I like micro so I like how Terran plays. It's just terrans are more mechanically demanding than Protoss. That's really it.
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On December 16 2011 15:39 RavenLoud wrote:Straight from the horse's mouth: "We intentionally make different aspects of the game difficult for the different races. We want each of them to have asymmetric advantages and disadvantages that contribute to very different play styles, but still result in a satisfying, balanced game at the end of the day." http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=295494Can we get it over with the QQ about how my race is harder than yours because I have to click this instead of clicking that?
"satisfying, balanced game"
Is exactly what terrans want-it's not satisfying that lategame terran just gets destroyed by a 20-gate 3/3/3 chargelot warpin after they get an even army trade with protoss...
It's not so terrible with zerg because they have production times as well, but you can still see it-Until terran's first wave of production comes out after a big fight, there's a nice hole in their defenses that the other races get relatively simple ways to exploit (warpin and cracklings with creep are insanely quick T_T).
When it only takes 5 seconds to make something anywhere you have a pylon it gets kind of silly >_o
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On December 16 2011 15:46 GoldenH wrote:
GoldenH's wall of text
I really hope this is sarcastic, considering that protoss has observers and warpins and blink stalkers and cliffwalking high damage aoe units and forcefield range really doesn't require you to move them out in front unless you're being the aggressor (which never needs to happen until you have 3/3/3 and 5 bases and 20 gates for the one-two kill
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Here is the most awesomest answer yet:
Quit bitching and just play the game.
I read a lot of these posts just to kill time because I am a casual sc2 gamer, it isn't my living, as I'm sure it isn't yours (respect to progamers), but seriously, just click on your StarCraft II icon, type in your username/password, and click "Find Match." This huge pendulum of swinging from Terran OP, Zerg OP, Protoss OP, is so old, and it isn't going to count for anything when HotS comes out in well, hopefully 6 months tops, because the game is going to be considerably changed. Just be patient, I'm sure if there is legitimately something wrong Blizzard will take data over a period of time (2-3 months) and be like "Oh hey, this is happening" they shouldn't Nerf or Buff anything simply because a lot of players choose to not play a race. Take this example:
You are the Hershey Chocolate Company, you sell mainly Hersheys with Almonds, it costs you 33 cents to produce the candy bar, and you sell all your candy bars for 34 cents. Nobody likes the Goodbar (I effin love em), so they aren't selling, should you lower the price of it to 33 cents, and make no profit? or maybe you could change it, by changing the label (i.e. new strategies, different playstyles). People will notice this and be like "Hey, I want to try the Goodbar" and boom you improve your sales instantly. Everyone just needs to give the game time to shift, so that way Terran can change their "wrapper" and who knows, they might just take it all again. Just be patient, I'm sure these Koreans will find a way, or hell maybe even a foreign terran like Thorzain might find something.
There is no need to sit here and complain all day about something that will most likely work itself out in 2 months or so.
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HOLY JESUS FUCKING CHRIST. So this is me, herp derping on TL, see this thread have been on the front page for a while. So I think to myself, hmm, i see that most of the points have been covered on the first page of the thread, what could people possible be talking about for 70 pages?
So i click page 71, and all i see is walls of text of QQ and rage about balance.
Seriously guys, take a chill pill, if you are losing, its not because of imbalance, it's because you are bad. Take the pointless rage out of TL and stop spamming every thread with recycled and reused arguements over each race's supposed imbalance issues. THANK YOU.
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On December 16 2011 15:40 Surili wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 15:24 Scila wrote:On December 16 2011 15:17 Surili wrote:On December 16 2011 15:07 Chaggi wrote:On December 16 2011 14:59 Tingles wrote:On December 16 2011 14:20 Klyberess wrote:
TvP is brutally unforgiving (for T). PvT is brutally unforgiving ( for P). Thanks for your assertion. I appreciate that you used facts and examples to back it up. Because engaging a Protoss army is really hard. You have two units that can outright kill a bioball if we don't have enough of the counters. Protoss has cheaper upgrades and can get them much faster than Terran. If we make one mistake in micro, we can lose a lot of our army due to splash damage. And as you get higher in leagues, Terrans need better multi-tasking, and micro to keep up with Protoss armies. And how can that not be said to be true of marines and marauders? Stop taking specific examples and trying to apply them to whole matchups. Like Day9 was saying in his daily today, it removes from the thousands of different situations that can occur, in which some "counters" are actually we against the thing that they are meant to "counter". Just stop it. All the races have their own strengths/weaknesses. Some parts are easier/harder than others. Also, some players are more aligns with some playstyles than others, so naturally they find other things harder. Get over yourselves. Just to help, i may never experience how hard it must be for zergs to hit their injects perfectly, because the warp gate mechanic isn't as punishing, likewise, they won't understand how hard REALLY good forcefields cast rapidly in a non wasteful way can be. Because the races are different and it is good that way. Note, i left Terran out not because i believe they don't have hard things to do, but because i do not wish to fuel a fire. God you're so dense I'll try my best to explain it to you. OF COURSE races have weaknesses and strengths. THAT'S NOT THE POINT. The point is Terran requires insane mechanical ability to keep up with the other two races, especially Protoss. And no, you can't say "oh because you don't play Protoss you don't know how hard it is for us". Guess what, I've played every race, and I watch pro player streams and tournaments, and when I play a Protoss on ladder, I know exactly how "difficult" it is. You cannot compare the Protoss macro, micro and especially multitasking requirements to Terran. Not to mention, if a Protoss fucks up with his army, it doesn't just die because it requires so little control and you can always pop down emergency FFs after you're in a bad spot. If you mismicro or look away for one second from your army as Terran, it will melt to banelings, Colossus, storm, or chargelots. Sorry but the way Protoss plays right now below GM you can't say it's "hard'. You just sit there afk macroing chronoboosting out upgrades while the Terran has to do a million things to try and keep up. That's not a problem for top level Korean Terrans because they practice 8+ hours a day and are insanely good. But for non-pro players like me it's impossible to keep up with Toss and to lesser extent Zerg.
If what you said were true there would be no strong terran players at the top, because they would need to be putting 10times as much effort in as everyone else. As it is, it is not the case.
Once again you demonstrate that you have no idea about what the argument in this thread even is. We're not saying Terran is underpowered or weak. We're saying that everyone except the Korean Terrans (the guys that put in 10 times as much effort as everyone else) doesn't have the sheer skill or ability to play Terran to the max, because of how mechanically demanding Terran is. Even professional NA and EU Terrans have not been having any success for the past 6+ months.
This is fine in lower leagues, because there Terran can still basically make bio and "a-move" or whatever it is people joke about. Around Platinum all the way to GM league however, Terran is very difficult to play because you have to multitask, macro AND micro very well, where as Protoss and Zerg have a much easier time with these and other aspects of the game, because their races are not as mechanically demanding. This is why even in High masters you see Protoss players doing NOTHING aggressive in PvT and just sitting there chronoboosting out upgrades and macroing, while the Terran has to drop, keep up on upgrades, make the right addons, swap buildings, multitask, stutter-step, control multiple unit groups instead of just one like the Protoss deathball, and etc.
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On December 16 2011 15:53 Notaa wrote:
HOLY JESUS FUCKING CHRIST. So this is me, herp derping on TL, see this thread have been on the front page for a while. So I think to myself, hmm, i see that most of the points have been covered on the first page of the thread, what could people possible be talking about for 70 pages?
So i click page 71, and all i see is walls of text of QQ and rage about balance.
Seriously guys, take a chill pill, if you are losing, its not because of imbalance, it's because you are bad. Take the pointless rage out of TL and stop spamming every thread with recycled and reused arguements over each race's supposed imbalance issues. THANK YOU.
For the 100th time, this is not a balance thread. It's a thread about why Terran is disappearing in higher leagues - and that is because it's designed to be very mechanically demanding and difficult to master, compared to the other two races.
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On December 16 2011 15:49 Active.815 wrote:I really hope this is sarcastic, considering that protoss has observers and warpins and blink stalkers and cliffwalking high damage aoe units and forcefield range really doesn't require you to move them out in front unless you're being the aggressor (which never needs to happen until you have 3/3/3 and 5 bases and 20 gates for the one-two kill
Yeah because none of that requires any micro and you can just infinitely forcefield entire sides of the map forever if you're not threatening unit damage mmhm and nobody ever suddenly just builds one thor and fucks up your entire day! It's totally safe to leave observers floating over the map, its not like terrans haven't learned how to spot them and kill them with scans or turrets! And its so easy to get 5 bases while dealing with multi-pronged drops while marine-tank threatens to break down your front.
Protoss requires a lot of micro to do it right.
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First of all i must say im in Bronze.
I used to play terran, but recently changed to Zerg, because i just cant stand TvT, it is the most boring thing on earth for me...
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The best part of this thread is that people still are making fun of Terrans an then whine that they never get to play a XvT match. Go figure
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On December 16 2011 15:47 Active.815 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 15:39 RavenLoud wrote:Straight from the horse's mouth: "We intentionally make different aspects of the game difficult for the different races. We want each of them to have asymmetric advantages and disadvantages that contribute to very different play styles, but still result in a satisfying, balanced game at the end of the day." http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=295494Can we get it over with the QQ about how my race is harder than yours because I have to click this instead of clicking that? "satisfying, balanced game"Is exactly what terrans want-it's not satisfying that lategame terran just gets destroyed by a 20-gate 3/3/3 chargelot warpin after they get an even army trade with protoss... It's not so terrible with zerg because they have production times as well, but you can still see it-Until terran's first wave of production comes out after a big fight, there's a nice hole in their defenses that the other races get relatively simple ways to exploit (warpin and cracklings with creep are insanely quick T_T). When it only takes 5 seconds to make something anywhere you have a pylon it gets kind of silly >_o
Well it's not like these units are free, 3/3/3 chargelots shouldn't be that much trouble when your bio should be 3/3 as well ( vs. his 3/3/0 or 3/3/1 most of the time.) I think terrans will eventually adapt to the double forge by ironing out a timing for double engibay early.
I'm not saying that the game is perfect, we still have 2 expansions after all.
My post was specifically targeted at "OMG I have to micro when he just a-moves his shit so unfair".
PS: This attitude of assuming things that are fact, this smug feeling that you already fully understand the game and how everything should happen according to you is the core reason why people stop improving.
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On December 16 2011 15:31 Active.815 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 15:24 Tingles wrote:On December 16 2011 15:07 Chaggi wrote:On December 16 2011 14:59 Tingles wrote:On December 16 2011 14:20 Klyberess wrote:
TvP is brutally unforgiving (for T). PvT is brutally unforgiving ( for P). Thanks for your assertion. I appreciate that you used facts and examples to back it up. Because engaging a Protoss army is really hard. You have two units that can outright kill a bioball if we don't have enough of the counters. Protoss has cheaper upgrades and can get them much faster than Terran. If we make one mistake in micro, we can lose a lot of our army due to splash damage. And as you get higher in leagues, Terrans need better multi-tasking, and micro to keep up with Protoss armies. Miss 1 FF and your dead. Don't go colossus? Emps (which have higher range than feedback) will get your HT's and then MMM will roll your army. Same argument man. So who's right? Your assertion or mine? Or why don't' we just agree that both are susceptible to micro mistakes, and as you get higher in leagues all the races get harder to play because your opponents are harder. And i'll just that it's not an argument that your race is hard because if you dont' have enough of the right counter, you just get rolled. If i play vs Muta Ling, if i don't have enough of the right counter (HT's ) i get rolled. If i play in PvP and we both go robo colossus, if i dont' have enough of the right counter, i get rolled. It's not an argument that your race is shit, your argument is from frustration. I agree about the upgrades, but that remains to be seen just yet whether it's actually a bad or a good thing .. patch has only been out what ... a month? The difference is that protoss micro is fire and forget. Throw down forcefields at the beginning of a battle, maybe split templars, cast storm a couple times, make archons, maybe blink stalkers to kill vikings... Only one of those requires more than a two actions to complete each action (F-click, T-click, B-click, and C are all pretty damn simple). Also, most P can be rather rash with FF's because you get a lot of them by lategame if your sentries have been fairly naptastic for the midgame. Terran focus fire/stutter step/split micro has to be applied for the whole battle, and is constantly changed by storm/FF and take way more attention over the span of a big battle EDIT: Scila it would be nice if you calmed down Rational statements are a lot better then going !@#$ !@$#$#@$@$#@%^%&^ you! @_@
But the problem with the "fire and forget" analogy is that you need to do it (as you said) to quite a substantial number of protoss units to make yourself extremely viable in the fight. It might not be hard to do it for 1 spellcaster, but to do it in a fight when i see an MMM but go "T + a move" and roll me because i didn't' cast those storms quick enough, i didn't' put up guardian shield, i didn't micro my colossus to the back of my army, i didn't blink into position to stop the vikings from raping my colossus and i didn't' have my zealots at the front of my army.
I realize it's not so black and white as "t+a move", but i'm doing it to draw the comparison when you talk about Terran engaging Protoss from your perspective, vs mine. I realize that there is just much level of care when engaging Protoss from Terran, but again it's for comparisons sake.
It's easy to say that they are simple in themselves, but to be doing that in a fight when, when 2 or 3 of them require a decent amount of care when casting, is just not correct ... that isn't a fair assessment of the situation.
I haven't said that Terran is easy, because I've played Terran, and it's not. But to say the Protoss is so much easier is just untrue. It's a fabricated lie to make yourself feel better about loosing to Protoss ... that it's the races fault, not the player.
I do the same in PvZ, but I've realized that i'm just shit at the matchup and i need to get better at it.
Scila that was possibly one of the most bias things I've ever read. You gotta settle down a bit dude.
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On December 16 2011 06:37 dde wrote:
A few top korean terrans are very good therefore terrans will keep on getting nerfed. It is not impossible to win as terran vs z and p on ladder lol I dont understand why ppl are qqing like zergs did back in the end of last year. Man up ppl we play manly race stop with the I can never win as terran thing.
Only sane post in this thread for a while t.t Would be nice if we could end it on this note.
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EPT
