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Q & A With David Kim

Forum Index > SC2 General
345 CommentsPost a Reply
1 2 3 4 5 16 17 18 Next All
juicyjames *
Profile Joined August 2011
United States3815 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-16 04:01:52
December 16 2011 02:45 GMT
#1
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/4135187/Q__A_With_David_Kim-12_15_2011

At the recent (November 10th and 11th) G-Star event in Korea, we had an opportunity to talk to some of the GSL’s top competitors and get their feedback on the current state of StarCraft II. This was also a good opportunity to show our players around the world how pro player feedback influences the act of balancing StarCraft II.

While we’ve made a number of balance tweaks over time, at this point the overall game balance is quite solid. There are always variations from region to region, so we rarely make a balance decision based on the numbers from a single region, or even a single tournament or tournament series. While we’re likely to see more changes in the future, we’re going to remain cautious when making even small changes, since they can have sweeping (and sometimes surprising) effects on overall balance. The purpose of this feature is to highlight some of the feedback we received from pro players, and to discuss our perspectives based on that feedback.

+ Show Spoiler [MULE -- Too effective on gold bases] +
MULE -- Too effective when used on high yield mineral patches.

Concerns about the MULE are something that we hear most frequently from the player community at large, but it’s also feedback that we’ve seen from some pro players specifically with regard to high yield mineral patches. In fact, the GSL recently removed high yield patches from its maps in response to this concern. This change seems to have worked out well for the GSL so far, but all the other major tournaments that didn’t remove high yield resources from their maps are still showing very good race representation, so the change doesn’t appear necessary.

There are a lot of potential reasons this could be, but we’ll examine a couple of the most likely. First is that the change really did reduce terran effectiveness in the GSL specifically, but because the terran race does unusually well in Korea, it all balanced out. Another possible reason could be that there is an advantage to terran players from using MULEs on high yields, but it’s not significant enough for the removal of high yield resources to result in a noticeable effect on overall performance.

Regardless, we don’t jump to conclusions and we’re still investigating. If further research suggests conclusively that MULEs do offer too much of an advantage to terran players when used on high yield minerals, we’ll consider an appropriate course of action then.

+ Show Spoiler [Spawn Larvae -- Too much management] +
Spawn Larvae -- This requires too much management; even pro players are unable to manage Spawn Larvae perfectly.

Our stance on this kind of issue is simple: We intentionally make different aspects of the game difficult for the different races. We want each of them to have asymmetric advantages and disadvantages that contribute to very different play styles, but still result in a satisfying, balanced game at the end of the day. Spawn Larvae is more difficult to manage than Chrono Boost or MULEs, but zerg has other advantages -- for example, unit production is relatively easy to manage for zerg compared with the other races. Making side-by-side comparisons of isolated elements won’t show you the whole picture because StarCraft II is asymmetrically balanced, meaning that if a race is strong in one way, then it’s probably also weak where another race is strong.

We also like to see this kind of feedback, because making games easy to learn but difficult to master is one of Blizzard’s core game design philosophies. So, we don’t see it as a problem that, even at the pro level, perfect mastery hasn’t been achieved yet.

+ Show Spoiler [Give Reapers back early-game speed] +
Reapers -- Give Reapers back the early-game speed upgrade.

We tend to agree that Reapers can stand to see some improvement. We like the unit, but the problem previously was that Reapers with Nitro Packs were too effective versus zerg in the early game. Unfortunately, after losing their role in early-game harassment, Reapers haven’t proven to be a very powerful or useful unit at most stages of the game.

As we discussed at BlizzCon, we’re taking a hard look at the Reaper, and we’re experimenting with different options to see where Reapers can fit into the terran arsenal with Heart of the Swarm.

+ Show Spoiler [Terran -- Stop nerfing us] +
Terran -- Stop nerfing us!

There will always be changes as we develop StarCraft II, and we try to minimize nerfs as much as possible. We don’t like making changes unless they’re necessary. Still, we will continue to make small adjustments that we feel need to be made to achieve the best balance possible, and we don’t keep score regarding who is getting the most or the fewest changes. Ultimately, we’re invested in the success of all three races, and we want to make all three perform well.

+ Show Spoiler [EMP Radius decrease is too significant] +
EMP -- Radius decrease is too significant.

We feel that the dynamic between protoss and terran especially was in need of a change, and this was an efficient method of achieving that. We’re still paying close attention to how the change to EMP affects this matchup globally, as well as on the tournament stage.

+ Show Spoiler [Choke Points -- More variance] +
Choke Points -- More variance in choke point placement on maps.

We love variety, but maps play a significant role in how balance is achieved, and with that in mind, we need to maintain a certain amount of consistency in map features. For example, all of our 1v1 maps feature relatively close natural expansions, while our 2v2 maps lean toward starting teammates relatively close together.

Ramps into starting positions are another feature which we try to keep pretty consistent. Certain ramp structures, such as particularly wide ramps, would favor fairly specific builds, which is why the ramps leading from starting positions are all alike. We still want diversity in the map pool though, so the ramps leading into natural expansions display more variety, since we see a greater diversity of strategies even when those ramps differ from the norm. This way, an essential terrain feature becomes more interesting.

We also look for other ways to make maps interesting and unique, though it’s difficult to do that without potentially hurting a map’s tournament potential. Typically, tournament map creation is subject to a lot of restrictions, which is also why so many tournament maps share features with one another.

+ Show Spoiler [Khaydarin Amulet -- Bring it back] +
Khaydarin Amulet -- Bring it back!

We wanted to change the dynamic between the protoss and other races, and we like to make small changes to do that. Unfortunately, when the Khaydarin Amulet was still available, we would see players do things like spread pylons everywhere simply to gain the ability to warp in High Templars and storm passing armies. Also, because High Templars were often warped in to cast an immediate storm, there wasn’t a lot of decision making about which ability would be used -- in the vast majority of cases, it would be one cast of Psi Storm, which would deplete all available energy. Also, positioning wasn’t a consideration in too many cases, since the unit would appear, cast storm, and then effectively be forgotten for that battle.

We like the way the High Templar work now, because, while they remain very powerful, some thought and consideration must go into how they’re positioned and which spells are used.

For Heart of the Swarm, we’re exploring better ways to handle energy upgrades, since we’re not quite satisfied with how they work currently.

+ Show Spoiler [Void Ray damage is difficult to read] +
Void Ray -- Damage output is difficult to read in-game.

We like the visuals in StarCraft II to have clear meaning, and this is good feedback. We'll take a closer look at how the graphic communicates damage output to players at various skill levels. If it does turn out to be unclear, we’ll find ways to improve it.

+ Show Spoiler [More varied Protoss playstyles] +
Protoss Play Style -- More variety please!

This was another issue that came up at BlizzCon. We’re definitely looking at ways to give protoss players more tactical options and more strategic paths. We’ll probably achieve this via new units which will be added in Heart of the Swarm.

We do have good reasons for delaying a large change like this for the expansion. Not to be taken lightly is the fact that balance is actually quite good right now, and major play style changes can have a disruptive effect on balance. Also, patches are intended to fix issues in a small, incremental way, not to introduce entirely new playing experiences and sweeping changes to gameplay. That kind of change is much better left for an expansion, where new units and dramatic shifts in strategy are expected and welcomed.

In short, we do want to give protoss players a better variety of strategic options. We’ve learned a lot from Wings of Liberty, and we’re hoping to achieve an even better and more varied competitive environment overall. In Heart of the Swarm, we expect to see the strategic options available to all three races grow.

http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/4135187/Q__A_With_David_Kim-12_15_2011#c-3760756040

These were concerns that were brought up by pro-players at G-Star, which occurred just as 1.4.2 was being applied (Patch 1.4.2 on November 8th, Q&A on November 10th and 11th). These weren't questions selected at random; they specifically reflect the feedback David received there.

I think it's worth mentioning that, at the time that the event was occurring, the match up heavily favored terran.
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SoKHo
Profile Joined April 2011
Korea (South)1081 Posts
December 16 2011 02:48 GMT
#2
I always like to hear what the game balancers have to say about the game ^^ Good Read
"If you don't understand my silence, you won't understand my words"|| Big Nal_rA fan boy!! Nal_rA, Bisu, Huk, MC, Hero fighting! SKT1---->
TemujinGK
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States483 Posts
December 16 2011 02:49 GMT
#3
Some hope for change. I'd like to see a lot of what the questions suggest, but the answers from David Kim seem to indicate that nothing will change in the short term (substantially).

Sigh. Plus ça change.
"Pikachu and Protoss are both yellow, Coincidence?" ~apexMorroW
firehand101
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Australia3152 Posts
December 16 2011 02:51 GMT
#4
Love David Kim interviews, so interesting to hear his thoughts more than any one else on the scene, since he balances the whole damn thing!

Really excited as they seem to state that the expansion will bring so many new strats and playstyles, i feel like WoL was a warmup game for whats to come.....
either way, so excited!
The opinions expressed by our users do not reflect the official position of TeamLiquid.net or its staff.
mrtomjones
Profile Joined April 2011
Canada4020 Posts
December 16 2011 02:55 GMT
#5
Some of the answers are pretty cool to hear but some of these questions were kinda... foolish... Reapers dont need their speed back, HT's just need a different form of upgrade as they said, and Ghost emp is fine the way it is..
babo213
Profile Joined January 2011
United States266 Posts
December 16 2011 02:58 GMT
#6
His answers don't seem to indicate things are going to change...
Badfatpanda
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States9719 Posts
December 16 2011 02:58 GMT
#7
Interesting, nothing really compelling about possible future patches though, and I doubted there would be

That map question brought back unglamorous memories of Kulas Ravine though t.t
Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy. -Beethoven | Mech isn't a build, it's a way of life. -MajOr | Charlie.Sheen: "What is sarcastic, kids who have no courage to fight?" | #TerranPride #yolo #swag -Naama after 2-0'ing MC at HSC VI
SarcasmMonster
Profile Joined October 2011
3136 Posts
December 16 2011 02:58 GMT
#8
On December 16 2011 11:55 mrtomjones wrote:
Some of the answers are pretty cool to hear but some of these questions were kinda... foolish... Reapers dont need their speed back, HT's just need a different form of upgrade as they said, and Ghost emp is fine the way it is..


Seems like you're agreeing with David Kim on all those points.
MMA: The true King of Wings
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
December 16 2011 02:59 GMT
#9
He seems to have a solid plan and understanding. If the top thing on the list is Mules on high yield patches, I think we are in a good spot.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Sanguinarius
Profile Joined January 2010
United States3427 Posts
December 16 2011 02:59 GMT
#10
I really enjoy David Kim interviews. He is the most articulate balance designer I have seen. Its obvious he plays this game at a high level and spends alot of time thinking about improvements. Thanks for the interview.
Your strength is just an accident arising from the weakness of others -Heart of Darkness
Zergrusher
Profile Joined November 2011
United States562 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-16 03:00:55
December 16 2011 03:00 GMT
#11
david knows how to l2p


dustin actually has a bachelors degree in english litterature, i dunno how he got into game making.......


but he is a good spokesperson,
player.. eh not so much,
atleast davvy kept in GM for 3 seasons and he was a formor pro Sc1 and BW player and played WoW quite actively

pPingu
Profile Joined September 2011
Switzerland2892 Posts
December 16 2011 03:00 GMT
#12
Were those questions really from top GSL players? I would have believed the questions would be more "complicated" and specific.

I think I have already seen all of this on bnet forums
Carras
Profile Joined August 2010
Argentina860 Posts
December 16 2011 03:01 GMT
#13
thats completely empty as usual.. not a single line worth reading.. you could summarize the hole post with "we r working hard , wait for HOTS"
SovietHammer
Profile Joined March 2011
United States166 Posts
December 16 2011 03:02 GMT
#14
I feel this interview is dated and if it is not then his answers don't reflect any awareness of the state of the meta-game.
GreEny K
Profile Joined February 2008
Germany7312 Posts
December 16 2011 03:03 GMT
#15
Nice effort, no content from Blizz as usual.
Why would you ever choose failure, when success is an option.
TyrantPotato
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Australia1541 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-16 03:05:34
December 16 2011 03:04 GMT
#16
their view on reapers IMO was completely wrong.

the only reason that reapers were too good against zerg was the tiny map size, and that they could kite everything

i preached back in the 5rax reaper days that all that needed to change was roach range increased to prevent kiting of roaches.

now with that increased range, bringing back the reaper speed will bring another way in which the tvz game could be played.
Forever ZeNEX.
Corsica
Profile Joined February 2011
Ukraine1854 Posts
December 16 2011 03:06 GMT
#17
On December 16 2011 11:58 SarcasmMonster wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 16 2011 11:55 mrtomjones wrote:
Some of the answers are pretty cool to hear but some of these questions were kinda... foolish... Reapers dont need their speed back, HT's just need a different form of upgrade as they said, and Ghost emp is fine the way it is..


Seems like you're agreeing with David Kim on all those points.


The way David Kim phrases everyone wants to agree with him isnt it true? :D
SarcasmMonster
Profile Joined October 2011
3136 Posts
December 16 2011 03:06 GMT
#18
For Heart of the Swarm, we’re exploring better ways to handle energy upgrades, since we’re not quite satisfied with how they work currently.


Probably upgrade faster regen rate. Calling it.
MMA: The true King of Wings
eleaf
Profile Joined September 2011
526 Posts
December 16 2011 03:07 GMT
#19
Just explain why current master/GM are flooded with zerg. Hard race and need auto lava inject? I dont think so.

User was warned for this post
Andreas
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Norway214 Posts
December 16 2011 03:07 GMT
#20
Decent answers for the most part... The only one I'm really upset about is that removing gold minerals in the GSL worked out because in Korea, Terrans are doing so much better, and because non-Korean tournaments with gold mineral maps don't have a large amount of Terran top finishes, it isn't necessary to remove them.

Either the game is balanced and gold patches can stay no matter how well Terrans are doing (this would simply mean there are more good Terran players) or the game isn't balanced and gold minerals need to go so Terrans don't have an unfair advantage. I thought this would be fairly obvious to a balance designer...
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