EPTA Different Perspective on The NaNiwa Controversy - Page 21
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ZeromuS
Canada13378 Posts
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Truthful
United States38 Posts
On December 16 2011 03:42 Supcraft.Rez wrote: By "meaning" this is exactly what I'm referring to; money and seeding. Of course it was televised, but if a tournament has this kind of format, it's kind of the organizer's problem, isn't it? NaNiwa, after all, is not "working" for Gom. Imagine you're working for absolutely no money and no ability to get an advancement, but the whole world get to see your work. How's that important to anyone but the sponsors? (which the player could decide to honor with a good game, or not) first of all, it kind of sounds like you're downplaying the role of sponsors which provide the means for a player to live and pursue their passion. should a player "deciding to honor with a good game" even be considered anything other than a given for a professional player? second, the whole world getting to see you play is ridiculous exposure. it's a privilege to be in that position.there are hunders of progamers busting their ass for a single code A spot for a glimmer of that type of exposure. do you think they would have done what he did being down 0-3? i don't think so | ||
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shinosai
United States1577 Posts
On December 16 2011 04:05 Glacierz wrote: People need to separate a player's actions from whether the tournament's format/rules are flawed. Just because certain rules make a game pointless from some people's perspective does not excuse a professional from behaving poorly in his profession. If anyone is so naive to think that a professional [insert any competitive sport]'s job is to win and not entertain, then he/she needs a reality check on how you can call something a profession. Is it possible to be a professional at something that does not pay money? People pay money to watch the games, not to see who wins/who loses in a giant summary table. But the question is, is anyone so naive to think that a professional gets into the game so they can entertain others and not win? Maybe ultimately that's what you're getting paid for, but that's never the motivation behind it. Of course, it's very easy with the world revolving around you and such to proclaim that other people exist to entertain you, rather than benefit themselves and fulfill their own goals. | ||
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dAPhREAk
Nauru12397 Posts
when naniwa beat nestea in the MLG invitational, my jaw dropped. i couldn't believe it (especially after beating mvp earlier). but then i thought, its just a fluke, nestea will realize that he was playing a foreigner and just roflstomp him the next time they meet (ala idra vs mc where idra beat mc 2-0 then mc went 4-0 against him in extended series). then, naniwa met nestea at MLG providence, and beat him again!! i was exasperated. who was this swedish dude beating the best zerg in the world, and how is he doing it? so, when i saw that naniwa was going up against nestea again in the blizzcup, i was like, fuck yeah! this is going to be great (although a bo1, its still a "grudge match"). then, naniwa probe rushed. what a fucking letdown. to naniwa, you don't know me, you don't owe me anything and you do not have to make decisions based on what i think. however, i lost a little respect for you that day because i had looked forward to a good game (well, at least, a game), but you gave me shit. i will still root for you, but i am one sadly disappointed fan. i am glad you have owned up to it recently in interviews, etc., so i am not going to be one of those dramatic dudes ("you lost a fan") and will hope for continued greatness in the future. you are still one of the only foreigner hopes left. | ||
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FSUmaru
Canada61 Posts
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tripper688
United States569 Posts
On December 16 2011 04:01 Risen wrote: Then Quantic should be the one punishing him, not GOM. GOM can take action against players that they feel are hurting their company and product. Their house, their rules. I was only talking about the perceived "meaning" the game held. It might not have meant anything to Nani or some of his fans but it sure did to his employers. What does this tell you? | ||
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Lazarusnpx
Portugal32 Posts
On December 16 2011 03:36 sashamunguia wrote: great blog Alex  I don't agree completely however, cuz u know, some may even see a 4-gate as an offense, or an 8-gate, or whatever, so you just can't keep everyone happy. Related Sports Story on the FIFA World Cup there was a game between 2 teams that MAY qualify to the next round if they ended up in a tie. roughly 35 mins before they finished their game, they already knew for certain that if they ended up 1-1 (or 0-0) as the score was, they will both advance, and if any of them score a goal, one would advance while the other wouldn't. So the thing is both coaches decided to not play at all, both theams split on their own halves of the court, one team keep passing the ball between defensive players from side to side, and the other team just watching from the distance, not even attempting to steal the ball because they may end up losing. All those players were Proffesional Footbal Players in the Biggest World Event, and well, I won't say it's a good thing to do, but even they did something 'shameful' and no sort of punishment was even tried. TLDR: In a FIFA World Cup two teams didn't even cross their half of the court because they knew they would advance if the score ended up in a tie, and none of the coaches/players was slightly punished. yea, i was actually thinking about some similar soccer stories, i don't know if it's just the soccer sport that actually is just a bunch of scumbags (i don't think so), but there are many situations where the teams are clearly just not making the effort, from just clearly not trying, to throwing in the B-teamers, and actually there's even matches where the commentators are already stating that will happen before the game starts, and the public knows that the game doesn't matter so the attendance is much much smaller, the main diference here is that this sports we are trying to draw examples from having to play the game for X amount of time where in Sc2 that doesn't happen and the game can end at any moment. Now it seems, instead of just ranting and dropping all blame on the Naniwa case (wich was basically a symptom) we should try to find the underlying disease and try to find what should be a solution to it, because hoping all players will simply uphold the suposed honor code (that WILL be different from person to person), is putting the decision power on the hands of the wrong persons, teams and leagues should be the ones looking into this and building the standard rules to control the players in a constructive way rather then destructive and leaving the players to do their job without all the drama. | ||
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Witten
United States2094 Posts
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Liquid`Nazgul
22427 Posts
On December 16 2011 03:59 Mattchew wrote: Nazgul, you make a lot of great points in this thread, but this analogy is just terrible. I mean your analogy could be looked at as saying you were paid by the owner of a dog to walk it 4 times in one day. The first 3 walks are long, exciting and pee and poop filled walks enjoyed greatly by the dog (and would be enjoyed by the owner if they could watch/hear about). After a long day of walking the 4th walk consists of you just letting the dog out back really quickly, fulfilling the dogs "bathroom" needs but the dog is already tired so it becomes meaningless to exercise again. This is always the problem with analogies. They are usually clearly meant to illustrate one thing for which it works, yet people pick on them from all sides to prove a point of some sorts. It was meant to illustrate the difference between a money based argument and a responsibility based argument. That's what it should be used for, that's what I implied it should be used for. I said this is a different thread but comparing this situation to any professional sport (especially team sports) is just plain stupid. SC2 players are paid and recruited by talent, results, and popularity. Naniwa playing a half-assed game that noone enjoys and has no bearing on his results is not the same as a team starting its b-team. When a pro-sports team starts their b-team they are often scouting them and deciding on who to keep and who to drop based on stats accumulated in these games, performance in front of a large audience, and leadership and effort in a time where results of the actual game dont matter. Let's say Naniwa gives 100% and beats the shit outta Nestea. Noone is going to walk away from a meaningless game saying Naniwa JUST PWND Nestea, they will say Nestea didn't try. This does literally nothing for Naniwa's record as player and nothing to shine brightly on Naniwa's team. I don't agree that nobody will be impressed with a win. It won't be as highly regarded as a win in the finals, but it won't be brushed aside as being nothing either. Plenty of people tuned in for the showmatches GOM had a while ago, and even though none of them resembled any sort of prestige close to an actual tournament, they did resemble prestige. We received plenty of compliments for the play our players showed in them. You can also reverse your own argument. You mention a player looks bad from playing half-assed. This has an effect on his value and by your own argument that's another reason why he could be playing for prestige. Not to gain it, but to make sure not to lose any. Can you find me one example of where a professional tennis/golf/MMA fighter/boxer ever had a meaningless match in a tournament? Including MMA and boxing like they are relevant is almost like a trick question. If you say team sports are not a good comparison you need to come up with reasons why. You can't just say because they're not individual sports, because there are always things you can compare such as tournament format, fan reaction, etc. However if you look at the nature of MMA and boxing you will quickly notice that a) tournament format is almost never used and b) group play could never function in either of those sports. This means that they are not consciously making a choice between group play and non-group play. It just can't exist by default. MMA exists out of separated showmatches that add or take away from your ranking so that you can climb up the ladder and play a bigger name. It would be like removing tournament format from SC2 altogether and arbitrarily ranking players to match them up the week after. Golf is not a one on one sport. It's a point based sport in which each participant needs to be as fast as possible. It's more like speed-skating, and other time trial based sports. The format these sports are forced into is again hard to compare. However little I may know of golf I think that after one day of playing there are players who have no chance at winning the tournament anymore. Yet they still continue to play for one reason or another. As for tennis the ATP World Finals actually use a group stage that creates as many opportunities for meaningless matches as the GSL system does. Overall tennis is played almost solely with a bracket system, which I think suits SC2 very well as well. But that's not to say that groups don't exist in tennis because they do and they work. First of all I like a bracket system for SC2 a lot as can be seen from the TSL. Tournaments who have issues with their format creating meaningless matches are MLG, IEM, DH, Assembly, IPL, but our own tournament does a fine job through a bracket system. Right now it's unique but possibly other tournaments will follow suit. So the conclusion can be that there are indeed meaningless matches in any sport that is remotely similar to ours. I do understand the complaints about the tournament systems however as can be seen from TSL. I believe it is good to minimize meaningless matches. I'm touching on subjects of the blog I have written down (but not released), but my suggestion to tournaments that want to use group stages is to start with rewarding each spot in the group in some way. If GSL awarded their 4th spot with $200 that may have given Naniwa a feel of responsibility to play for, a clear sign of what is expected of you. The tennis ATP world finals reward every match played in round robin. This is also a stage of development for SC2 that we need some time for, because these rewards are basically money that needs to be pumped into the scene with no obvious value such as a first prize that draws attention. That said I firmly believe that no matter the format; a player agrees to play a tournament by his own will. If the format has meaningless matches then I think that is unfortunate and should be avoided. However this does happen in a lot of sports, and in no sport do athletes react to it by giving a zero percent effort. I'll quote myself from earlier in this topic to illustrate what I mean by zero percent effort. On December 15 2011 22:14 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I've given this a lot of thought but I don't think you can ever define the line. You can't find the boundary. You can however spot outliers. A lot of people come up with gray area examples as a counter to outliers - they're not the same. We are able to tell when we're sure someone is giving it their earnest and we are able to tell when someone doesn't try at all. It's not possible to determine where the line is and effectively use it for any sort of policy. As such the policies need to be directed at the outliers where everyone can agree no effort was made to win. | ||
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pezit
Sweden302 Posts
The Idra situation you bring up is so much more serious, he gave up in the middle of a semifinal... That's actually a game that probably every single viewer felt was exciting and important. So if you think Naniwas punishment was justified Idra deserves a far more severe one. The sports you're comparing this to works completely differently, if the teams don't play their games the league will fall apart. It's simply not a valid comparison to this Naniwa situation because blizzcup would've been absolutely fine without this game, in fact it would've been better off without it. | ||
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sib-pelle
Sweden162 Posts
If my favorite hockeyteam was out of the playoffs and had nothing to play for, I would still be pissed off and boo at them if they didn't try to win the last games. That's reason for them to atleast try, because it pisses people off if they don't show some pride etc. There was a MMA-fighter that didn't try one match and just ran away from his opponent, he lost his contract with the UFC and got kicked out! | ||
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hejakev
Sweden518 Posts
On December 16 2011 04:13 FSUmaru wrote: A 100% brilliant write up of a situation that was blown up beyond belief. Very nice work Alex I totally agree. This topic has been blown way out of proportion and this well-worded write up really was completely unnecessary. Alex, as true as his post may be, is just beating a dead horse with a different kind of stick. | ||
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Glacierz
United States1240 Posts
On December 16 2011 04:10 shinosai wrote: But the question is, is anyone so naive to think that a professional gets into the game so they can entertain others and not win? Maybe ultimately that's what you're getting paid for, but that's never the motivation behind it. Of course, it's very easy with the world revolving around you and such to proclaim that other people exist to entertain you, rather than benefit themselves and fulfill their own goals. You can do it to benefit yourself and fulfill your own goals no problem, but don't call it a profession. With the word professional comes the responsibility you owe to the people compensating you for what you do. | ||
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pezit
Sweden302 Posts
On December 16 2011 04:39 sib-pelle wrote: He should have played it because it pissed people off when he didn't, especially GOM. If my favorite hockeyteam was out of the playoffs and had nothing to play for, I would still be pissed off and boo at them if they didn't try to win the last games. That's reason for them to atleast try, because it pisses people off if they don't show some pride etc. There was a MMA-fighter that didn't try one match and just ran away from his opponent, he lost his contract with the UFC and got kicked out! The players still has to perform because that's their only venue of showcasing their skills, if they stop caring they'll get fired because no one will go to see their games. While in Naniwas situation everyone still knows he's a good player that will play well when it matters, and even without the nestea vs naniwa game GOMTV still had an entire day of good games. | ||
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DEN1ED
United States1087 Posts
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Derez
Netherlands6068 Posts
On December 16 2011 04:49 DEN1ED wrote: This kind of stuff happens all the time in real sports. Has anyone watched an NBA game between two of the bottom teams at the end of a season? It looks like a scrimmage. There is no defense being played and very minimal effort from the players. No one cries about it hurting the NBA though. It's just the nature of having to play meaningless games. You're making me wonder if you actually read the OP. It explains to you in very few words how it is not the same. (Players still being on the field for one.) | ||
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Liquid`Nazgul
22427 Posts
On December 16 2011 04:49 DEN1ED wrote: This kind of stuff happens all the time in real sports. Has anyone watched an NBA game between two of the bottom teams at the end of a season? It looks like a scrimmage. There is no defense being played and very minimal effort from the players. No one cries about it hurting the NBA though. It's just the nature of having to play meaningless games. It doesn't happen in the NBA. If Naniwa played a game, any sort of game, with limited effort, then that would be the same as what happens in the NBA. The NBA equivalent of this would be throwing the ball in your own basket all game long, which would lead to public outrage. It would not be accepted under the argument that players would have played with minimal effort anyways. | ||
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Bonkarooni
United States383 Posts
On December 16 2011 02:36 Lumber1000jack wrote: As for the WhiteRa game, read Thrax's post and you'll understand it was better overall for Idra to not play that game as he wouldn't have been able to perform and it would have hurt his next day play very likely. As for the Haypro game, take it from me as I was there. Idra missed the game cause he didn't hear it called when he was watching Huk play. I can tell you this isn't BS cause I was in the audiance watching Huk and not only did I see Idra watching, but I never heard his game with Haypro called either, I didn't even know they were going to play until after when I heard he missed it. And as for the people who were waitning to watch it and missed out, I promise you that is a total of about 15 people. Sure plenty of people would have like to know who had won, especially after Haypro's amazing performance against NesTea earlier that day, But due to the game being played in player only area, very few people would have been able to watch it looking over his shoulder, and that is only if it was played on one of the edges rather than in the middle where no one would have seen it. NaNiwa's game was much higher profile which is why i warrants such a different reaction. Yeah, Idra was tired. Naniwa was tired...so how isnt it the same excat thing? Except idras match meant something to other people in the tournament, because him winning/losing could of changed seedings for everyone. So arguably, Idra's was worse. Haypro thing you're right on though, my bad. | ||
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theliman2000
United States45 Posts
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Bonkarooni
United States383 Posts
On December 16 2011 04:59 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: It doesn't happen in the NBA. If Naniwa played a game, any sort of game, with limited effort, then that would be the same as what happens in the NBA. The NBA equivalent of this would be throwing the ball in your own basket all game long, which would lead to public outrage. It would not be accepted under the argument that players would have played with minimal effort anyways. This is a good point, sort of. I think part of the reason people are so mad is because...He Mocked the game, he didn't just forefit. I think it would of been just fine if he had actually forefitted/refused to play the match. Instead though, he does something that OBVIOUSLY isn't trying, and insulting to his hosts. Thats why people (or at least, I) am upset by it. Its like..."Here go ahead and hype this game up, let my team tweet about it and get excited, and then ruin it for everyone" instead of just "Sorry, I can't mentally focus for this game, give nestea the win" | ||
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