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On December 15 2011 23:13 Remb wrote:
When I saw 7 probes rushing a hatchery, I knew that Naniwa (foolishly) chose to act honestly instead of doing what so many other pro gamers have done before. The esports world should not be parallel with athletic sports for many reasons, one being the seasonal and physical aspects of athletic sports, and I do believe his actions were unacceptable
But I think that a player can never play his best games when he knows there is nothing at stake, and it is the responsibility of the tournaments to host formats that create meaningful games.
Too often I see players feign motivation when they are put into those situations you described, and those games truly anger me. Watching a player perform a game where it is apparent he is not motivated to play his best is insulting to my intelligence. I am paying for honest competition, not a fake and empty showmatch that is supposed to entertain me. I pay these companies to create a tournament where the players are motivated because the games are important to them. The situation does occur quite often, but they are rarely ever pointed out.
It's quite laughable how you parallel these situations to athletic sports to justify their existence. Nobody cares about the last two teams playing their final match of the season, and the turnouts for those games are always abysmal. Because the fans are not stupid.
The fans know when a game is meaningless. They know when the players don't give a damn, but the players slug on and half-ass it because "it's their job". Well you are selling the fans short. Naniwa's game angered me. But if Naniwa chose the politically correct strategy of 2 base all in or 4 gate, I would have been equally angered. Both strategies are equally meaningless to me, because the situation itself was meaningless.
lol, Nani should have just refused to get in the booth to be honest then. If I see a player get into the booth, then I expect to see a game. Probe rushing is just as dishonest as a half assed 4 gate. If he wants to make a point, don't get in the booth. If he doesn't like the way the tournament is set up, don't show up. I fail to see how a probe rush is any better than any other half assed rush. Showmatches bring in tons of money. All-star games, pro bowls, none of it actually matters but try saying that to the ticket prices and ad prices for prime slots.
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On December 16 2011 03:04 nakam wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 17:51 EGalex wrote:
This is why, of all the controversial situations that IdrA's been involved in, the only time I felt the need to intervene was when he forfeited a match that was being streamed live to thousands of spectators.* How about that time Idra forfeited 7/8th place match vs. Haypro, a game what wasn't meaningless at all? Would it be appropriate to ban him from next MLG?
How about the fact that most players literally flip a coin for their consolation matches which according to you are not meaningless?
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On December 16 2011 03:18 tripper688 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 23:13 Remb wrote:
When I saw 7 probes rushing a hatchery, I knew that Naniwa (foolishly) chose to act honestly instead of doing what so many other pro gamers have done before. The esports world should not be parallel with athletic sports for many reasons, one being the seasonal and physical aspects of athletic sports, and I do believe his actions were unacceptable
But I think that a player can never play his best games when he knows there is nothing at stake, and it is the responsibility of the tournaments to host formats that create meaningful games.
Too often I see players feign motivation when they are put into those situations you described, and those games truly anger me. Watching a player perform a game where it is apparent he is not motivated to play his best is insulting to my intelligence. I am paying for honest competition, not a fake and empty showmatch that is supposed to entertain me. I pay these companies to create a tournament where the players are motivated because the games are important to them. The situation does occur quite often, but they are rarely ever pointed out.
It's quite laughable how you parallel these situations to athletic sports to justify their existence. Nobody cares about the last two teams playing their final match of the season, and the turnouts for those games are always abysmal. Because the fans are not stupid.
The fans know when a game is meaningless. They know when the players don't give a damn, but the players slug on and half-ass it because "it's their job". Well you are selling the fans short. Naniwa's game angered me. But if Naniwa chose the politically correct strategy of 2 base all in or 4 gate, I would have been equally angered. Both strategies are equally meaningless to me, because the situation itself was meaningless. lol, Nani should have just refused to get in the booth to be honest then. If I see a player get into the booth, then I expect to see a game. Probe rushing is just as dishonest as a half assed 4 gate. If he wants to make a point, don't get in the booth. If he doesn't like the way the tournament is set up, don't show up. I fail to see how a probe rush is any better than any other half assed rush. Showmatches bring in tons of money. All-star games, pro bowls, none of it actually matters but try saying that to the ticket prices and ad prices for prime slots.
Those are specifically designated as "show matches" beforehand though. Not as part of some larger tournament.
Anyways I agree with you, Naniwa should have either just not showed up, or played a bronze league cheese game. Probe rushing makes even the out of touch people to realize hes throwing the game.
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On December 16 2011 03:15 nakam wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 03:07 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:On December 16 2011 02:48 Risen wrote:
Meh, I read the whole thing this is what I got. It's not about the game, it's about the money. Seems pretty lame to me. Your argument seems to center on the fact that this hurts the potential ability of the players to make money. You're allowed to have that opinion. You see that as advancing ESPORTS or something. In your eyes, and feel free to let me know if I'm wrong here I hate putting words in other people's mouths when it isn't true, ESPORTS success is measured in how much money it makes. You're a CEO, I'm not surprised by this. In my eyes, and many other people's eyes, it's not about the money. I think his probe rush was hilarious, I was laughing my damn ass off. It's probably the most entertaining moment I've had in SC2 since the NASL finals. Entertainment achieved.
Naniwa channeled his inner Gheed, and I think anyone who's all "this hurts esports wahhhh". Who gives a shit about the money, I don't. I care about the game and the players. I guess this is why the FGC has had a tough time adapting to your "ESPORTS" vision. Too much weaksauce moneygrubbing bullshit.
Oh you wanted Naniwa to go out and pretend to do his best in a match that meant nothing? Sorry pal, the illusion of grandeur may be important to you, but anyone with half a brain would have known it was two players playing sub-optimally. I can't stand people who want some stupid illusion to keep themselves happy.
This seems a bit harsh to me, but I have to walk my dog. I don't mean to offend, I apologize if I have done so. Honestly this is not really fair as an argument. Let's say someone pays you to walk their dog, you say yes and accept the money. However you end up not doing it for whatever reason. The person who paid you is upset because they paid you. Is this problem about the money, or is it about irresponsible choices and the moral values you attached to being a professional? Before you point it out; the situation is of course not entirely the same. However what is the same is that you're trying to make an argument solely about money, when it should essentially be about responsibilities instead. They may originate from the same source (money), but that doesn't mean a simplified answer such as this is justified as a rebuttal. Lets say the dogs owner pays you to walk the dog but does not state how long you have to walk it. You walk it for 1 min, techincally fulfilling your obligation. Should you be punished so hard it affects your whole career as a dog walker?
The analogy was meant to show the difference between money and responsibility. It wasn't meant to function as an example to what technicality suffices as fulfilling your job. The two are entirely different when it comes to walking a dog and being an athlete. You don't have an audience and sponsor anticipating the dog walk and many other things are different that make your question useless.
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On December 16 2011 03:15 nakam wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 03:07 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:On December 16 2011 02:48 Risen wrote:
Meh, I read the whole thing this is what I got. It's not about the game, it's about the money. Seems pretty lame to me. Your argument seems to center on the fact that this hurts the potential ability of the players to make money. You're allowed to have that opinion. You see that as advancing ESPORTS or something. In your eyes, and feel free to let me know if I'm wrong here I hate putting words in other people's mouths when it isn't true, ESPORTS success is measured in how much money it makes. You're a CEO, I'm not surprised by this. In my eyes, and many other people's eyes, it's not about the money. I think his probe rush was hilarious, I was laughing my damn ass off. It's probably the most entertaining moment I've had in SC2 since the NASL finals. Entertainment achieved.
Naniwa channeled his inner Gheed, and I think anyone who's all "this hurts esports wahhhh". Who gives a shit about the money, I don't. I care about the game and the players. I guess this is why the FGC has had a tough time adapting to your "ESPORTS" vision. Too much weaksauce moneygrubbing bullshit.
Oh you wanted Naniwa to go out and pretend to do his best in a match that meant nothing? Sorry pal, the illusion of grandeur may be important to you, but anyone with half a brain would have known it was two players playing sub-optimally. I can't stand people who want some stupid illusion to keep themselves happy.
This seems a bit harsh to me, but I have to walk my dog. I don't mean to offend, I apologize if I have done so. Honestly this is not really fair as an argument. Let's say someone pays you to walk their dog, you say yes and accept the money. However you end up not doing it for whatever reason. The person who paid you is upset because they paid you. Is this problem about the money, or is it about irresponsible choices and the moral values you attached to being a professional? Before you point it out; the situation is of course not entirely the same. However what is the same is that you're trying to make an argument solely about money, when it should essentially be about responsibilities instead. They may originate from the same source (money), but that doesn't mean a simplified answer such as this is justified as a rebuttal. Lets say the dogs owner pays you to walk the dog but does not state how long you have to walk it. You walk it for 1 min, techincally fulfilling your obligation. Should you be punished so hard it affects your whole career as a dog walker?
obviously that qualifies you as a shitty dog-walker so yeah, it should affect your whole career as a dog walker. the people who hired you should advise other people who have dogs not to use you your services. get it?
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On December 16 2011 03:19 taLbuk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 03:04 nakam wrote:On December 15 2011 17:51 EGalex wrote:
This is why, of all the controversial situations that IdrA's been involved in, the only time I felt the need to intervene was when he forfeited a match that was being streamed live to thousands of spectators.* How about that time Idra forfeited 7/8th place match vs. Haypro, a game what wasn't meaningless at all? Would it be appropriate to ban him from next MLG? How about the fact that most players literally flip a coin for their consolation matches which according to you are not meaningless?
Well, they are pretty close to meaningless, but still the Nani vs. Nestea was more meaningless than Idra vs. Haypro, which actually had money involved (and I'm sure some kind of ranking points).
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It continues to baffle me how this isn't the common sentiment for almost everyone. I guess a lot of gamers didn't ever play sports- never learned the principles behind respecting your opponent/team/self/fans and showing it through your play. If you know your team didn't make the playoffs, you still finish out your season, holding your head high and putting forth your best effort, savoring every last moment, and trying to show something that people supporting you can be proud of.
In highschool, one of our star players was suspended for drinking at prom, even though he was only hanging around people who were doing so. Did we rant and rave that it was unfair? Did he? No. He knew that he shouldn't have even put himself in an ambiguous situation that could possibly cause him to let his team and the people who support him down, and so did we. Regardless of the situation, you have to be harsher on yourself and your own than the onlookers, because you owe yourself the self-respect of being held to a higher standard.
The idea of making excuses and redirecting blame in such a situation for a competitor you both respect and support, is just plain foreign to me, and makes me sick to my stomach. The values GOM talked about in their official statement is what I grew up with; it's not a clash of cultures in the sense of east vs west. Maybe, despite all the talk, we just don't want starcraft to be held to the same standards as other competition.
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On December 16 2011 03:16 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 03:12 Grettin wrote:On December 16 2011 03:04 nakam wrote:On December 15 2011 17:51 EGalex wrote:
This is why, of all the controversial situations that IdrA's been involved in, the only time I felt the need to intervene was when he forfeited a match that was being streamed live to thousands of spectators.* How about that time Idra forfeited 7/8th place match vs. Haypro, a game what wasn't meaningless at all? Would it be appropriate to ban him from next MLG? Of course it wouldn't. Those games weren't even broadcasted. They weren't exactly meaningful. This has to be a trolling argument.
Sorry but, can you please enlighten me a bit here. What i'm understanding wrong and thus "trolling" you? Or are you even talking to me.
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On December 16 2011 03:21 Truthful wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 03:15 nakam wrote:On December 16 2011 03:07 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:On December 16 2011 02:48 Risen wrote:
Meh, I read the whole thing this is what I got. It's not about the game, it's about the money. Seems pretty lame to me. Your argument seems to center on the fact that this hurts the potential ability of the players to make money. You're allowed to have that opinion. You see that as advancing ESPORTS or something. In your eyes, and feel free to let me know if I'm wrong here I hate putting words in other people's mouths when it isn't true, ESPORTS success is measured in how much money it makes. You're a CEO, I'm not surprised by this. In my eyes, and many other people's eyes, it's not about the money. I think his probe rush was hilarious, I was laughing my damn ass off. It's probably the most entertaining moment I've had in SC2 since the NASL finals. Entertainment achieved.
Naniwa channeled his inner Gheed, and I think anyone who's all "this hurts esports wahhhh". Who gives a shit about the money, I don't. I care about the game and the players. I guess this is why the FGC has had a tough time adapting to your "ESPORTS" vision. Too much weaksauce moneygrubbing bullshit.
Oh you wanted Naniwa to go out and pretend to do his best in a match that meant nothing? Sorry pal, the illusion of grandeur may be important to you, but anyone with half a brain would have known it was two players playing sub-optimally. I can't stand people who want some stupid illusion to keep themselves happy.
This seems a bit harsh to me, but I have to walk my dog. I don't mean to offend, I apologize if I have done so. Honestly this is not really fair as an argument. Let's say someone pays you to walk their dog, you say yes and accept the money. However you end up not doing it for whatever reason. The person who paid you is upset because they paid you. Is this problem about the money, or is it about irresponsible choices and the moral values you attached to being a professional? Before you point it out; the situation is of course not entirely the same. However what is the same is that you're trying to make an argument solely about money, when it should essentially be about responsibilities instead. They may originate from the same source (money), but that doesn't mean a simplified answer such as this is justified as a rebuttal. Lets say the dogs owner pays you to walk the dog but does not state how long you have to walk it. You walk it for 1 min, techincally fulfilling your obligation. Should you be punished so hard it affects your whole career as a dog walker? obviously that qualifies you as a shitty dog-walker so yeah, it should affect your whole career as a dog walker. the people who hired you should advise other people who have dogs not to use you your services. get it?
So throwing away a meaningless game makes you a shitty player?
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On December 16 2011 03:20 BlindSight754 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 03:18 tripper688 wrote:On December 15 2011 23:13 Remb wrote:
When I saw 7 probes rushing a hatchery, I knew that Naniwa (foolishly) chose to act honestly instead of doing what so many other pro gamers have done before. The esports world should not be parallel with athletic sports for many reasons, one being the seasonal and physical aspects of athletic sports, and I do believe his actions were unacceptable
But I think that a player can never play his best games when he knows there is nothing at stake, and it is the responsibility of the tournaments to host formats that create meaningful games.
Too often I see players feign motivation when they are put into those situations you described, and those games truly anger me. Watching a player perform a game where it is apparent he is not motivated to play his best is insulting to my intelligence. I am paying for honest competition, not a fake and empty showmatch that is supposed to entertain me. I pay these companies to create a tournament where the players are motivated because the games are important to them. The situation does occur quite often, but they are rarely ever pointed out.
It's quite laughable how you parallel these situations to athletic sports to justify their existence. Nobody cares about the last two teams playing their final match of the season, and the turnouts for those games are always abysmal. Because the fans are not stupid.
The fans know when a game is meaningless. They know when the players don't give a damn, but the players slug on and half-ass it because "it's their job". Well you are selling the fans short. Naniwa's game angered me. But if Naniwa chose the politically correct strategy of 2 base all in or 4 gate, I would have been equally angered. Both strategies are equally meaningless to me, because the situation itself was meaningless. lol, Nani should have just refused to get in the booth to be honest then. If I see a player get into the booth, then I expect to see a game. Probe rushing is just as dishonest as a half assed 4 gate. If he wants to make a point, don't get in the booth. If he doesn't like the way the tournament is set up, don't show up. I fail to see how a probe rush is any better than any other half assed rush. Showmatches bring in tons of money. All-star games, pro bowls, none of it actually matters but try saying that to the ticket prices and ad prices for prime slots. Those are specifically designated as "show matches" beforehand though. Not as part of some larger tournament. Anyways I agree with you, Naniwa should have either just not showed up, or played a bronze league cheese game. Probe rushing makes even the out of touch people to realize hes throwing the game.
I don't understand this argument. So Nani has to cater to the "out of touch" people and execute some idiotic cheese in order to avoid being kicked out? In my mind, that's absurd, but I respect your right to hold that opinion.
By your logic, anyone who does an unworkable cheese should be banned. If this had been written in the rules, I'd fully support the banning. It wasn't, and instead there was some arbitrarily defined nonsense. Let's all ban people based on our "feelings" from now on. That's going to work out.
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On December 16 2011 03:21 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 03:15 nakam wrote:On December 16 2011 03:07 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:On December 16 2011 02:48 Risen wrote:
Meh, I read the whole thing this is what I got. It's not about the game, it's about the money. Seems pretty lame to me. Your argument seems to center on the fact that this hurts the potential ability of the players to make money. You're allowed to have that opinion. You see that as advancing ESPORTS or something. In your eyes, and feel free to let me know if I'm wrong here I hate putting words in other people's mouths when it isn't true, ESPORTS success is measured in how much money it makes. You're a CEO, I'm not surprised by this. In my eyes, and many other people's eyes, it's not about the money. I think his probe rush was hilarious, I was laughing my damn ass off. It's probably the most entertaining moment I've had in SC2 since the NASL finals. Entertainment achieved.
Naniwa channeled his inner Gheed, and I think anyone who's all "this hurts esports wahhhh". Who gives a shit about the money, I don't. I care about the game and the players. I guess this is why the FGC has had a tough time adapting to your "ESPORTS" vision. Too much weaksauce moneygrubbing bullshit.
Oh you wanted Naniwa to go out and pretend to do his best in a match that meant nothing? Sorry pal, the illusion of grandeur may be important to you, but anyone with half a brain would have known it was two players playing sub-optimally. I can't stand people who want some stupid illusion to keep themselves happy.
This seems a bit harsh to me, but I have to walk my dog. I don't mean to offend, I apologize if I have done so. Honestly this is not really fair as an argument. Let's say someone pays you to walk their dog, you say yes and accept the money. However you end up not doing it for whatever reason. The person who paid you is upset because they paid you. Is this problem about the money, or is it about irresponsible choices and the moral values you attached to being a professional? Before you point it out; the situation is of course not entirely the same. However what is the same is that you're trying to make an argument solely about money, when it should essentially be about responsibilities instead. They may originate from the same source (money), but that doesn't mean a simplified answer such as this is justified as a rebuttal. Lets say the dogs owner pays you to walk the dog but does not state how long you have to walk it. You walk it for 1 min, techincally fulfilling your obligation. Should you be punished so hard it affects your whole career as a dog walker? The analogy was meant to show the difference between money and responsibility. It wasn't meant to function as an example to what technicality suffices as fulfilling your job. The two are entirely different when it comes to walking a dog and being an athlete. You don't have an audience and sponsor anticipating the dog walk and many other things are different that make your question useless.
Sure, but I'd like to see someone questioning the GOMTV rules. They need to clarify them in some way that it forces you to "play your best".
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I dig how this situation was compared to other sports. Really put it into different perspective for me (as per the title).
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On December 16 2011 03:23 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 03:20 BlindSight754 wrote:On December 16 2011 03:18 tripper688 wrote:On December 15 2011 23:13 Remb wrote:
When I saw 7 probes rushing a hatchery, I knew that Naniwa (foolishly) chose to act honestly instead of doing what so many other pro gamers have done before. The esports world should not be parallel with athletic sports for many reasons, one being the seasonal and physical aspects of athletic sports, and I do believe his actions were unacceptable
But I think that a player can never play his best games when he knows there is nothing at stake, and it is the responsibility of the tournaments to host formats that create meaningful games.
Too often I see players feign motivation when they are put into those situations you described, and those games truly anger me. Watching a player perform a game where it is apparent he is not motivated to play his best is insulting to my intelligence. I am paying for honest competition, not a fake and empty showmatch that is supposed to entertain me. I pay these companies to create a tournament where the players are motivated because the games are important to them. The situation does occur quite often, but they are rarely ever pointed out.
It's quite laughable how you parallel these situations to athletic sports to justify their existence. Nobody cares about the last two teams playing their final match of the season, and the turnouts for those games are always abysmal. Because the fans are not stupid.
The fans know when a game is meaningless. They know when the players don't give a damn, but the players slug on and half-ass it because "it's their job". Well you are selling the fans short. Naniwa's game angered me. But if Naniwa chose the politically correct strategy of 2 base all in or 4 gate, I would have been equally angered. Both strategies are equally meaningless to me, because the situation itself was meaningless. lol, Nani should have just refused to get in the booth to be honest then. If I see a player get into the booth, then I expect to see a game. Probe rushing is just as dishonest as a half assed 4 gate. If he wants to make a point, don't get in the booth. If he doesn't like the way the tournament is set up, don't show up. I fail to see how a probe rush is any better than any other half assed rush. Showmatches bring in tons of money. All-star games, pro bowls, none of it actually matters but try saying that to the ticket prices and ad prices for prime slots. Those are specifically designated as "show matches" beforehand though. Not as part of some larger tournament. Anyways I agree with you, Naniwa should have either just not showed up, or played a bronze league cheese game. Probe rushing makes even the out of touch people to realize hes throwing the game. I don't understand this argument. So Nani has to cater to the "out of touch" people and execute some idiotic cheese in order to avoid being kicked out? In my mind, that's absurd, but I respect your right to hold that opinion. By your logic, anyone who does an unworkable cheese should be banned. If this had been written in the rules, I'd fully support the banning. It wasn't, and instead there was some arbitrarily defined nonsense. Let's all ban people based on our "feelings" from now on. That's going to work out.
Im specifically equating a probe rush with those other cheeses and pointing out that one gets your banned and the other doesn't. I highly doubt that if Naniwa had done a 2 gate all-in or a cannon rush that we'd have this controversy.
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On December 16 2011 03:13 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 03:11 Risen wrote:On December 16 2011 03:07 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:On December 16 2011 02:48 Risen wrote:
Meh, I read the whole thing this is what I got. It's not about the game, it's about the money. Seems pretty lame to me. Your argument seems to center on the fact that this hurts the potential ability of the players to make money. You're allowed to have that opinion. You see that as advancing ESPORTS or something. In your eyes, and feel free to let me know if I'm wrong here I hate putting words in other people's mouths when it isn't true, ESPORTS success is measured in how much money it makes. You're a CEO, I'm not surprised by this. In my eyes, and many other people's eyes, it's not about the money. I think his probe rush was hilarious, I was laughing my damn ass off. It's probably the most entertaining moment I've had in SC2 since the NASL finals. Entertainment achieved.
Naniwa channeled his inner Gheed, and I think anyone who's all "this hurts esports wahhhh". Who gives a shit about the money, I don't. I care about the game and the players. I guess this is why the FGC has had a tough time adapting to your "ESPORTS" vision. Too much weaksauce moneygrubbing bullshit.
Oh you wanted Naniwa to go out and pretend to do his best in a match that meant nothing? Sorry pal, the illusion of grandeur may be important to you, but anyone with half a brain would have known it was two players playing sub-optimally. I can't stand people who want some stupid illusion to keep themselves happy.
This seems a bit harsh to me, but I have to walk my dog. I don't mean to offend, I apologize if I have done so. Honestly this is not really fair as an argument. Let's say someone pays you to walk their dog, you say yes and accept the money. However you end up not doing it for whatever reason. The person who paid you is upset because they paid you. Is this problem about the money, or is it about irresponsible choices and the moral values you attached to being a professional? Before you point it out; the situation is of course not entirely the same. However what is the same is that you're trying to make an argument solely about money, when it should essentially be about responsibilities instead. They may originate from the same source (money), but that doesn't mean a simplified answer such as this is justified as a rebuttal. I guess it's a difference of outlook. In my eyes Naniwa was invited to do his best to reach the finals and win, not play 4 games. Once it became apparent (0-3) that this was not possible, Naniwa completed his obligations. In this case, it isn't about being paid to walk a dog and then not walking it. It's entering a tournament for frisbee catching, losing in the initial heats, and being forced to do a meaningless sideshow (which the dog trainer competes in and throws his frisbee an impossibly long distance) That's not an opinion, it's an incorrect assumption. He was invited to play 4 games. I understand the emotions Naniwa went through and as such I think I can understand yours, but you can't make up your own reasons of why someone is invited in order to justify your opinion. Well i'm pretty sure he wasn't invited to play 4 games because if he'd got through to the next round he would of had to play more than 4 games. Semantics aside he played all the games he had to, he just played the last one very poorly. I don't think that's a punishable offence.
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On December 16 2011 03:22 Grettin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 03:16 Risen wrote:On December 16 2011 03:12 Grettin wrote:On December 16 2011 03:04 nakam wrote:On December 15 2011 17:51 EGalex wrote:
This is why, of all the controversial situations that IdrA's been involved in, the only time I felt the need to intervene was when he forfeited a match that was being streamed live to thousands of spectators.* How about that time Idra forfeited 7/8th place match vs. Haypro, a game what wasn't meaningless at all? Would it be appropriate to ban him from next MLG? Of course it wouldn't. Those games weren't even broadcasted. They weren't exactly meaningful. This has to be a trolling argument. Sorry but, can you please enlighten me. What i'm understanding wrong and thus trolling you?
I apologize if you were serious. To someone who has followed the situation the statement seemed trollish. I'll explain why I feel that way.
This whole situation has arisen from Naniwa's (and the majority's) view that this was a meaningless game with regards to the tournament. The disagreement comes when people say, well it isn't meaningless because Naniwa v. Nestea was supposed to be a grudge match with their PRIDE on the line! I'm sorry, I didn't know the game was about player pride all of a sudden. To me, my pride as a player would prevent me from doing something like what Naniwa did, but I will not pretend to judge a pro for his values like GOM has.
GOM's decision was based upon an ambiguous principal decision, not one of ruling.
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On December 16 2011 03:23 Supcraft.Rez wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 03:21 Truthful wrote:On December 16 2011 03:15 nakam wrote:On December 16 2011 03:07 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:On December 16 2011 02:48 Risen wrote:
Meh, I read the whole thing this is what I got. It's not about the game, it's about the money. Seems pretty lame to me. Your argument seems to center on the fact that this hurts the potential ability of the players to make money. You're allowed to have that opinion. You see that as advancing ESPORTS or something. In your eyes, and feel free to let me know if I'm wrong here I hate putting words in other people's mouths when it isn't true, ESPORTS success is measured in how much money it makes. You're a CEO, I'm not surprised by this. In my eyes, and many other people's eyes, it's not about the money. I think his probe rush was hilarious, I was laughing my damn ass off. It's probably the most entertaining moment I've had in SC2 since the NASL finals. Entertainment achieved.
Naniwa channeled his inner Gheed, and I think anyone who's all "this hurts esports wahhhh". Who gives a shit about the money, I don't. I care about the game and the players. I guess this is why the FGC has had a tough time adapting to your "ESPORTS" vision. Too much weaksauce moneygrubbing bullshit.
Oh you wanted Naniwa to go out and pretend to do his best in a match that meant nothing? Sorry pal, the illusion of grandeur may be important to you, but anyone with half a brain would have known it was two players playing sub-optimally. I can't stand people who want some stupid illusion to keep themselves happy.
This seems a bit harsh to me, but I have to walk my dog. I don't mean to offend, I apologize if I have done so. Honestly this is not really fair as an argument. Let's say someone pays you to walk their dog, you say yes and accept the money. However you end up not doing it for whatever reason. The person who paid you is upset because they paid you. Is this problem about the money, or is it about irresponsible choices and the moral values you attached to being a professional? Before you point it out; the situation is of course not entirely the same. However what is the same is that you're trying to make an argument solely about money, when it should essentially be about responsibilities instead. They may originate from the same source (money), but that doesn't mean a simplified answer such as this is justified as a rebuttal. Lets say the dogs owner pays you to walk the dog but does not state how long you have to walk it. You walk it for 1 min, techincally fulfilling your obligation. Should you be punished so hard it affects your whole career as a dog walker? obviously that qualifies you as a shitty dog-walker so yeah, it should affect your whole career as a dog walker. the people who hired you should advise other people who have dogs not to use you your services. get it? So throwing away a meaningless game makes you a shitty player?
shitty player in terms of talent? no. shitty player in the context of a competitor? yeah it does ...
and wait meaningless game? playing against the #2 GSL ranked player in a televised map casted by half a dozen casters in two different languages for a live studio audience and 100k+ viewers on live streams and future vods all enhanced by a rivalry factor that the you created by your words and actions in the previous meeting of a major tournament.
this game has no meaning? oh wait, i forgot, there was no money or seeding implications involved. that must be it right?
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Grettin, the match was for 7th and 8th place at MLG which determines seeding etc they were very meaningful from a players perspective. Since Idra forfeited, in terms of professionalism its equally in poor taste to what Nani did
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On December 16 2011 03:25 BlindSight754 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 03:23 Risen wrote:On December 16 2011 03:20 BlindSight754 wrote:On December 16 2011 03:18 tripper688 wrote:On December 15 2011 23:13 Remb wrote:
When I saw 7 probes rushing a hatchery, I knew that Naniwa (foolishly) chose to act honestly instead of doing what so many other pro gamers have done before. The esports world should not be parallel with athletic sports for many reasons, one being the seasonal and physical aspects of athletic sports, and I do believe his actions were unacceptable
But I think that a player can never play his best games when he knows there is nothing at stake, and it is the responsibility of the tournaments to host formats that create meaningful games.
Too often I see players feign motivation when they are put into those situations you described, and those games truly anger me. Watching a player perform a game where it is apparent he is not motivated to play his best is insulting to my intelligence. I am paying for honest competition, not a fake and empty showmatch that is supposed to entertain me. I pay these companies to create a tournament where the players are motivated because the games are important to them. The situation does occur quite often, but they are rarely ever pointed out.
It's quite laughable how you parallel these situations to athletic sports to justify their existence. Nobody cares about the last two teams playing their final match of the season, and the turnouts for those games are always abysmal. Because the fans are not stupid.
The fans know when a game is meaningless. They know when the players don't give a damn, but the players slug on and half-ass it because "it's their job". Well you are selling the fans short. Naniwa's game angered me. But if Naniwa chose the politically correct strategy of 2 base all in or 4 gate, I would have been equally angered. Both strategies are equally meaningless to me, because the situation itself was meaningless. lol, Nani should have just refused to get in the booth to be honest then. If I see a player get into the booth, then I expect to see a game. Probe rushing is just as dishonest as a half assed 4 gate. If he wants to make a point, don't get in the booth. If he doesn't like the way the tournament is set up, don't show up. I fail to see how a probe rush is any better than any other half assed rush. Showmatches bring in tons of money. All-star games, pro bowls, none of it actually matters but try saying that to the ticket prices and ad prices for prime slots. Those are specifically designated as "show matches" beforehand though. Not as part of some larger tournament. Anyways I agree with you, Naniwa should have either just not showed up, or played a bronze league cheese game. Probe rushing makes even the out of touch people to realize hes throwing the game. I don't understand this argument. So Nani has to cater to the "out of touch" people and execute some idiotic cheese in order to avoid being kicked out? In my mind, that's absurd, but I respect your right to hold that opinion. By your logic, anyone who does an unworkable cheese should be banned. If this had been written in the rules, I'd fully support the banning. It wasn't, and instead there was some arbitrarily defined nonsense. Let's all ban people based on our "feelings" from now on. That's going to work out. Im specifically equating a probe rush with those other cheeses and pointing out that one gets your banned and the other doesn't. I highly doubt that if Naniwa had done a 2 gate all-in or a cannon rush that we'd have this controversy.
Oh I see. I'm sorry I didn't see that.
On December 16 2011 03:25 Whyzguy wrote:
I dig how this situation was compared to other sports. Really put it into different perspective for me (as per the title).
I'm confused as to your stance in this post. Do you mean to say that other sports wouldn't do this? Because I'm pretty sure I've already pointed out one high profile case of it actually happening.
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On December 16 2011 03:23 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 03:20 BlindSight754 wrote:On December 16 2011 03:18 tripper688 wrote:On December 15 2011 23:13 Remb wrote:
When I saw 7 probes rushing a hatchery, I knew that Naniwa (foolishly) chose to act honestly instead of doing what so many other pro gamers have done before. The esports world should not be parallel with athletic sports for many reasons, one being the seasonal and physical aspects of athletic sports, and I do believe his actions were unacceptable
But I think that a player can never play his best games when he knows there is nothing at stake, and it is the responsibility of the tournaments to host formats that create meaningful games.
Too often I see players feign motivation when they are put into those situations you described, and those games truly anger me. Watching a player perform a game where it is apparent he is not motivated to play his best is insulting to my intelligence. I am paying for honest competition, not a fake and empty showmatch that is supposed to entertain me. I pay these companies to create a tournament where the players are motivated because the games are important to them. The situation does occur quite often, but they are rarely ever pointed out.
It's quite laughable how you parallel these situations to athletic sports to justify their existence. Nobody cares about the last two teams playing their final match of the season, and the turnouts for those games are always abysmal. Because the fans are not stupid.
The fans know when a game is meaningless. They know when the players don't give a damn, but the players slug on and half-ass it because "it's their job". Well you are selling the fans short. Naniwa's game angered me. But if Naniwa chose the politically correct strategy of 2 base all in or 4 gate, I would have been equally angered. Both strategies are equally meaningless to me, because the situation itself was meaningless. lol, Nani should have just refused to get in the booth to be honest then. If I see a player get into the booth, then I expect to see a game. Probe rushing is just as dishonest as a half assed 4 gate. If he wants to make a point, don't get in the booth. If he doesn't like the way the tournament is set up, don't show up. I fail to see how a probe rush is any better than any other half assed rush. Showmatches bring in tons of money. All-star games, pro bowls, none of it actually matters but try saying that to the ticket prices and ad prices for prime slots. Those are specifically designated as "show matches" beforehand though. Not as part of some larger tournament. Anyways I agree with you, Naniwa should have either just not showed up, or played a bronze league cheese game. Probe rushing makes even the out of touch people to realize hes throwing the game. I don't understand this argument. So Nani has to cater to the "out of touch" people and execute some idiotic cheese in order to avoid being kicked out? In my mind, that's absurd, but I respect your right to hold that opinion. By your logic, anyone who does an unworkable cheese should be banned. If this had been written in the rules, I'd fully support the banning. It wasn't, and instead there was some arbitrarily defined nonsense. Let's all ban people based on our "feelings" from now on. That's going to work out.
Addressing this point, I don't feel that Nani should have executed some idiotic cheese with the intent to lose either. I was only pointing out that there's not much difference in "honesty" or "honor" in doing that vs probe rushing because either way, you're not going into that booth with the intent of winning or of even putting on a show. And I could care less if it was Nani vs Nestea on ladder, at MLG, Dreamhack, Up/Downs, showmatch, or even goofing off at barcraft (please come to IEM NY next year Nani and Nestea :D ), I would love to watch them play a real game.
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I see your point but the game shouldn't even have been played. A same kind of format is used in the up/down matches and if the 2 players advancing are decided no more matches are played, exactly to prevent stuff like this happening. And Naniwa had even more reasons to not play because he was facing Nestea, who you don't really want to give more info and reads on your playstyle if you're gonna face him again later.
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EPT
