EPTA Different Perspective on The NaNiwa Controversy - Page 20
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KristianJS
2107 Posts
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Risen
United States7927 Posts
On December 16 2011 03:29 tripper688 wrote: Addressing this point, I don't feel that Nani should have executed some idiotic cheese with the intent to lose either. I was only pointing out that there's not much difference in "honesty" or "honor" in doing that vs probe rushing because either way, you're not going into that booth with the intent of winning or of even putting on a show. And I could care less if it was Nani vs Nestea on ladder, at MLG, Dreamhack, Up/Downs, showmatch, or even goofing off at barcraft (please come to IEM NY next year Nani and Nestea :D ), I would love to watch them play a real game. I understand. I just think it's disingenuous to expect two pros to go out and show their "tech" in a meaningless match. (If you want two pros to try their hardest you have to expect them to also show their tech, which is a poor long-term strategic decision) | ||
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TheButtonmen
Canada1403 Posts
On December 16 2011 03:04 nakam wrote: How about that time Idra forfeited 7/8th place match vs. Haypro, a game what wasn't meaningless at all? Would it be appropriate to ban him from next MLG? Did you actually read the OP? He mentioned that, Idra didn't purposely forfeit that. He was with Huk watching his games and missed the start of the round. | ||
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sashamunguia
Mexico423 Posts
 I don't agree completely however, cuz u know, some may even see a 4-gate as an offense, or an 8-gate, or whatever, so you just can't keep everyone happy. Related Sports Story on the FIFA World Cup there was a game between 2 teams that MAY qualify to the next round if they ended up in a tie. roughly 35 mins before they finished their game, they already knew for certain that if they ended up 1-1 (or 0-0) as the score was, they will both advance, and if any of them score a goal, one would advance while the other wouldn't. So the thing is both coaches decided to not play at all, both theams split on their own halves of the court, one team keep passing the ball between defensive players from side to side, and the other team just watching from the distance, not even attempting to steal the ball because they may end up losing. All those players were Proffesional Footbal Players in the Biggest World Event, and well, I won't say it's a good thing to do, but even they did something 'shameful' and no sort of punishment was even tried. TLDR: In a FIFA World Cup two teams didn't even cross their half of the court because they knew they would advance if the score ended up in a tie, and none of the coaches/players was slightly punished. | ||
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Risen
United States7927 Posts
On December 16 2011 03:34 TheButtonmen wrote: Did you actually read the OP? He mentioned that, Idra didn't purposely forfeit that. He was with Huk watching his games and missed the start of the round. Oh how convenient! All conspiracy theories aside, I actually don't care that he forfeited the 7th/8th place match. If he doesn't care about the match enough to be paying attention, why should I? | ||
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Klive5ive
United Kingdom6056 Posts
If the match itself was the issue they could've gone backstage and told Naniwa that he MUST play a rematch immediately and he must try - or they'd take away his CodeS spot. The huge problem I have with GOM is the massive punishment with no warning. Literally they couldn't have done anything worse. If Mr Chae had gone onstage and punched Naniwa in the face that would've less awful than what they did. Naniwa had no idea his actions would lead to that response. | ||
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Tandoori
United States3 Posts
I don't agree with a lot of your points though. I think that Naniwa's actions were definitely unacceptable in Korean culture. In every interview with a Korean pro they always say that their aim is to "show good games." As someone who got into SC2 in the beta and had no experience with BW, this was a awkward phrase to me for a very long time. Eventually, I just learned to accept that maybe something was lost in translation. Now, especially after listening to Nani on Lo3, I am coming to realize that professionalism in esports for Koreans means literally showing good games or entertaining the fans despite the circumstance. In the west though, I feel that the emphasis has always been on winning. In interviews, western players always say that they want to win or place at a certain level of performance. They don't say that they want to show good games, and they don't perceive themselves as entertainers. They are competitors. Their goal is to win and make money. And as a large part of how our scene has evolved, they haven't had to be entertaining. Casters and organizations like MLG/IPL/NASL have made the games entertaining by cultivating the drama and player personalities etc. From what I have seen, games are made entertaining by the players doing their best to win and by the tournaments doing their best to heighten the tension and the entertainment value of the game. In our system, the best players have been incited to put up their best matches as a result of potential winnings and prestige. "Showing good games" has always been a direct result of prize pool and prestige associated with a tournament. We have left it up to our tournament organizers to facilitate entertaining matches by creating tight and meaningful tournament systems. MLG comes to mind with this. Its a credit to their system that I am sweating bullets on the latter half of championship Sunday. So I don't think that GSL failed, and I don't think we have the right to tell them they did. This is a cultural difference where Korean players are always expect to play their hearts our for honor and in the name of being a progamer. By that standard their system works for their players. I also don't think Naniwa should be punished for something he didn't do maliciously. This is just his interpretation (dare I say western?) of what it means to be a pro gamer clashing with Korea's. He thought he was just supposed to win, and that if he couldn't what would the point be. Obviously GSL and Korean pros feel differently. This is just a cultural misunderstanding. Just my two cents. | ||
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tripper688
United States569 Posts
On December 16 2011 03:32 Risen wrote: I understand. I just think it's disingenuous to expect two pros to go out and show their "tech" in a meaningless match. (If you want two pros to try their hardest you have to expect them to also show their tech, which is a poor long-term strategic decision) I don't expect them to show their latest build or specifically tailored anti-whoever strategy, I would just rather they you know...actually play. Like maybe put in as much effort as if they were streaming for fans. On December 16 2011 03:34 TheButtonmen wrote: Did you actually read the OP? He mentioned that, Idra didn't purposely forfeit that. He was with Huk watching his games and missed the start of the round. I get the feeling that people are just trolling at this point. | ||
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mindjames
Israel353 Posts
On December 16 2011 03:26 Truthful wrote: shitty player in terms of talent? no. shitty player in the context of a competitor? yeah it does ... and wait meaningless game? playing against the #2 GSL ranked player in a televised map casted by half a dozen casters in two different languages for a live studio audience and 100k+ viewers on live streams and future vods all enhanced by a rivalry factor that the you created by your words and actions in the previous meeting of a major tournament. this game has no meaning? oh wait, i forgot, there was no money or seeding implications involved. that must be it right? By "meaning" this is exactly what I'm referring to; money and seeding. Of course it was televised, but if a tournament has this kind of format, it's kind of the organizer's problem, isn't it? NaNiwa, after all, is not "working" for Gom. Imagine you're working for absolutely no money and no ability to get an advancement, but the whole world get to see your work. How's that important to anyone but the sponsors? (which the player could decide to honor with a good game, or not) | ||
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Nonvidius
United States34 Posts
A couple of points that people are making saying what Nani did was okay are pretty ridiculous. One of them is this "the game didn't matter/ I DIDN'T think the game mattered" Now you might not have thought the game mattered, but as you can tell many people did. And because he is sponsored by a team, and playing in a league that makes its money off of advertising he needed to play that game. If he felt he could not be bothered to play every game in the format, he should have declined his spot. Also it would be completely different if Nani had talked to the admins, and they had agreed that he did not need to play his game( IE Idra vs White-ra). It would have even been differed if he had decided not to go into the booth at all, but he went in and blatantly threw a televised game. GomTV has every right to pull his code S spot, in the deal with MLG he gets a chance to play in Code S not the right. Gom can dish out what ever punishment they like in regards to actions taken at their own tournaments. | ||
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tripper688
United States569 Posts
On December 16 2011 03:36 sashamunguia wrote: great blog Alex I don't agree completely however, cuz u know, some may even see a 4-gate as an offense, or an 8-gate, or whatever, so you just can't keep everyone happy. Related Sports Story on the FIFA World Cup there was a game between 2 teams that MAY qualify to the next round if they ended up in a tie. roughly 35 mins before they finished their game, they already knew for certain that if they ended up 1-1 (or 0-0) as the score was, they will both advance, and if any of them score a goal, one would advance while the other wouldn't. So the thing is both coaches decided to not play at all, both theams split on their own halves of the court, one team keep passing the ball between defensive players from side to side, and the other team just watching from the distance, not even attempting to steal the ball because they may end up losing. All those players were Proffesional Footbal Players in the Biggest World Event, and well, I won't say it's a good thing to do, but even they did something 'shameful' and no sort of punishment was even tried. TLDR: In a FIFA World Cup two teams didn't even cross their half of the court because they knew they would advance if the score ended up in a tie, and none of the coaches/players was slightly punished. Different issue because it was in their best interests to do what they did. They actually had something stake. While I in no way approve of this, it wasn't a case of "Ugh, why am I here, probe rush gg" On December 16 2011 03:37 Risen wrote: Oh how convenient! All conspiracy theories aside, I actually don't care that he forfeited the 7th/8th place match. If he doesn't care about the match enough to be paying attention, why should I? Getting caught up watching a competitor you have close ties with on a different stage and not making it back to your own match in time isn't exactly the same as knowingly going into a booth and then sitting there with your hands off your keyboard as you try to get out of the booth as fast as you can. | ||
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itkovian
United States1763 Posts
On December 15 2011 17:51 EGalex wrote: I'm actually surprised that I haven't read more angry posts from disgruntled GOM customers. What NaNiwa did was basically akin to a last-place MLB team, during its final game of the season, intentionally striking out in every at bat. Just imagine what would happen in that situation: fans would ask for their money back; advertising contracts would be violated; and the league would certainly take action against the team and its players - just like GOM did with NaNi - in order to protect its product. For those of you who, after reading this, agree that NaNi's actions were unacceptable, but still blame GOM for utilizing a format which allows for inconsequential matches, I would ask you to consider holding players to higher standards of professionalism; and to also consider the fact that it's not GOM's responsibility to cater their format solely to suit players. GOM's job (as is the case with any professional sports league) is to provide a quality product to its viewers, while providing its competitors with fair, reasonable playing conditions, and the Blizzard Cup's format balanced these factors acceptably. Additionally, I would also point out the fact that, as illustrated above, every major professional sports league utilizes a format in which there are meaningless games. By your logic, All-Star games shouldn't even exist. I agree with most of your thoughts, except some of the metaphors you draw on in these two paragraphs. You compare the Naniwa/Nestea game to a MLB game in which one team completely puts in no effort into the game, and how that is an insult to the fans. That would be more true if the Naniwa/Nestea game was a stand-alone event. Instead, it was part of a bigger event and customers aren't paying to watch that match in particular, they're paying to watch a whole tournament or season. Also, you mention the All-Star game in baseball as a comparison for a meaningless game. (The all-star game is actually not completely meaningless, it decides home field advantage in the world-series.) But I don't think this comparison is very strong either, because players who are voted in to the all-start game don't have to attend if they don't want to. Most do chose to attend for obvious reasons, but there have been times when players have skipped it to do other things like go home to visit their family. So I guess if Naniwa had the choice to attend his match, and then performed in such a manner it would be comparable. Otherwise you're comparing something voluntary to something mandatory. | ||
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Gin-san
Croatia92 Posts
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tripper688
United States569 Posts
On December 16 2011 03:42 Supcraft.Rez wrote: By "meaning" this is exactly what I'm referring to; money and seeding. Of course it was televised, but if a tournament has this kind of format, it's kind of the organizer's problem, isn't it? NaNiwa, after all, is not "working" for Gom. Imagine you're working for absolutely no money and no ability to get an advancement, but the whole world get to see your work. How's that important to anyone but the sponsors? (which the player could decide to honor with a good game, or not) Naniwa is working for Quantic who thought that the game mattered. Does that settle this argument? | ||
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Uthgar
United States21 Posts
Thank you for the well written piece explaining your Point of View as a person who wants to see E-sports grow. Much appreciated. | ||
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tripper688
United States569 Posts
On December 16 2011 03:48 Gin-san wrote: While I can follow all your arguments I see a small flow in your comparisons. So you compared Naniwa's last match against NesTea with a meaningless NBA game at the end of the regular season which I don't think is quite the same. Naniwa lost the 3 games in a row just half an hour before the NesTea game was scheduled. He had to enter the last game with shattered feelings. NBA (or any other) teams hower have many days/weeks to process their drop out of the tournament and arent driven by emotions at the last game. While I don't approve of his actions I think that his feelings should also be understood. Not true, the race for playoff spots often go down to the final day or hours of the season especially when multiple teams are chasing the final few spots. Frequently, teams don't even know if they've been mathematically eliminated until they actually start playing. | ||
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Mattchew
United States5684 Posts
On December 16 2011 03:07 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: Honestly this is not really fair as an argument. Let's say someone pays you to walk their dog, you say yes and accept the money. However you end up not doing it for whatever reason. The person who paid you is upset because they paid you. Is this problem about the money, or is it about irresponsible choices and the moral values you attached to being a professional? Before you point it out; the situation is of course not entirely the same. However what is the same is that you're trying to make an argument solely about money, when it should essentially be about responsibilities instead. They may originate from the same source (money), but that doesn't mean a simplified answer such as this is justified as a rebuttal. Nazgul, you make a lot of great points in this thread, but this analogy is just terrible. I mean your analogy could be looked at as saying you were paid by the owner of a dog to walk it 4 times in one day. The first 3 walks are long, exciting and pee and poop filled walks enjoyed greatly by the dog (and would be enjoyed by the owner if they could watch/hear about). After a long day of walking the 4th walk consists of you just letting the dog out back really quickly, fulfilling the dogs "bathroom" needs but the dog is already tired so it becomes meaningless to exercise again. I said this is a different thread but comparing this situation to any professional sport (especially team sports) is just plain stupid. SC2 players are paid and recruited by talent, results, and popularity. Naniwa playing a half-assed game that noone enjoys and has no bearing on his results is not the same as a team starting its b-team. When a pro-sports team starts their b-team they are often scouting them and deciding on who to keep and who to drop based on stats accumulated in these games, performance in front of a large audience, and leadership and effort in a time where results of the actual game dont matter. Let's say Naniwa gives 100% and beats the shit outta Nestea. Noone is going to walk away from a meaningless game saying Naniwa JUST PWND Nestea, they will say Nestea didn't try. This does literally nothing for Naniwa's record as player and nothing to shine brightly on Naniwa's team. Can you find me one example of where a professional tennis/golf/MMA fighter/boxer ever had a meaningless match in a tournament? By blaming and hating on Naniwa we are basically arresting the drug user while letting the dealer walk free. | ||
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Risen
United States7927 Posts
On December 16 2011 03:50 tripper688 wrote: Naniwa is working for Quantic who thought that the game mattered. Does that settle this argument? Then Quantic should be the one punishing him, not GOM. | ||
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ZasZ.
United States2911 Posts
On December 16 2011 03:38 Klive5ive wrote: You've completely missed the major point. If the match itself was the issue they could've gone backstage and told Naniwa that he MUST play a rematch immediately and he must try - or they'd take away his CodeS spot. The huge problem I have with GOM is the massive punishment with no warning. Literally they couldn't have done anything worse. If Mr Chae had gone onstage and punched Naniwa in the face that would've less awful than what they did. Naniwa had no idea his actions would lead to that response. What? No, sorry, that's not how the real world works. You don't rematch because he decided to Probe rush. That was an official game, and he decided to throw it. Match over. He should be aware that throwing a televised game in front of thousands of fans in a grudge match people were excited to see would cause a backlash. Why should they have to give him a warning? If anything, Nani should be on his best behavior after all the random stunts he's pulled in the past and how the Koreans have been receiving him already (i.e. not well). He's had a million warnings and still conducts himself this way. GOM can punish him however they like (aside from the punching him in the face on stage example). | ||
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Glacierz
United States1244 Posts
If anyone is so naive to think that a professional [insert any competitive sport]'s job is to win and not entertain, then he/she needs a reality check on how you can call something a profession. Is it possible to be a professional at something that does not pay money? People pay money to watch the games, not to see who wins/who loses in a giant summary table. | ||
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