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On December 16 2011 03:59 halfies wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 03:57 SupLilSon wrote:On December 16 2011 03:42 iokke wrote:On December 16 2011 03:35 SupLilSon wrote:On December 16 2011 03:25 gosuMalicE wrote:On December 16 2011 03:03 Termit wrote:On December 16 2011 02:55 lizzard_warish wrote:On December 16 2011 02:51 Termit wrote:
Yea Protoss is cosidered an easier and more beginner friendly race in BW but because of the mechanics in that game you still had to have skill to not suck ass when it came to army control and macro. Too bad sc2 makes it possible to be in the highest league on the ladder with like 85 EAPM when you play Protoss. The same goes for Zerg, because of larva injects and MBS any player, good mechanics or not can spend upp all his larva, remax and rally 40 lings into your main in a heartbeat, while it at least took some effort to spend your larva in BW, rallying every hatch to your opponens base like in sc2 can only the real gosus do in time in BW too but now everyone can do it.
I don't know how Blizzard would increase the mechanical part for Z and P but I don't think it will ever happen. In the end it will just be like in BW, every foreigner is gonna play P and Z and a few T while the real korean gosu players will be sick in the head with Terran because they are amazing players. What mechanics exist for terran pray tell? one hotkey for all your buildings, hold down a letter. ZOMG the stress! What a load of shit. hahaha! What about one hotkey for CC's, one for rax, one for factory one for starport that you constantly produce from. While you as protoss doesn't even need to hotkey your fucking warpgates because you press W and the letter for your god damn unit. And then semi-produce from stargate and robo but you will never produce from them like a Terran does. It's sad how offended you got because you are probably one of these 85 EAPM guys that struggle hardcore with Protoss mechanics. I just pray to higher powers that some day Blizzard get some fucking sense and removes warpgates so Protoss players have to learn to produce from gateways all game long without quing and keeping up production and have to rally their units instead of having the luctury to kill defenders advantage and spawn units where ever they want. Bye. Man Terran has it easy, hotkey all production facilities and keep pumping out units during battle using hotkeys only, while still able to micro. Whereas Protoss has to pan away from the battle to the nearest pylon (stopping all micro) and Individually click their mouse for each unit they want. A little more action intensive then 3aaaa*tab*ss. Not to mention Protoss has to have 2-3 hotkeys for each type of caster to spit from emps effectively. (and Protoss has much more caster/ability micro in battle then Terran). Stutter stepping is a joke and anyone who complains about having to do it belongs in bronze league, and its not even Terran exclusive Protoss use lots of stutter step micro too, not to forget blink micro, which is several orders of magnitude more difficult and apm intensive. And Protoss players wish they could pump out units from the robo/stargate like terrans do from the starport/factory, only our stargate units are overpriced and ineffective, and our robo units are also overpriced and can only be made in certain quantities before they start to lose effectiveness so it make complete sense that "they will never produce like a Terran". It sad how worked up you get, because you are probably one of the Terrans whose ladder ranking was artificially inflated when Terran was OP, and now that they aren't you cant handle the fact that you are lower on the ladder then you were before. So you blame it on imbalance, or the other races just being easier, or some other such nonsense so that you don't have to face the fact that you are not as good of a player as you think you are. Anyone and everyone would gladly trade terran or zerg production for warpgates. There is no downside to it, you have to look away for 1 second in order to instantly gain reinforcements wherever you want. Terran has to do much more splitting than Protoss ever will. Stutter stepping is much more difficult than blink micro. You can't even consider blink micro. You click a button and your unit teleports. Blink is consistently the strongest ability in any strategy game and in no game would anyone consider using blink as skill intensive. It's funny that you mention robo/stargate in comparison to factory/starport because many top level protoss rely heavily on the robo/stargate tech whereas Terrans almost never use factory/starport tech aside from medivacs and rarely banshees (almost never now). Vikings are only useful for the fact that they are the sole unit that can combat stargate/robo tech. Ill ask again, are you actually in the team gosu? Or did you just happen to make a username with the word gosu in it? How is blink that much easier than stutter step? you can make the same argument, click back, S, clickback, S etc. Now I feel dumb for getting sucked in into this argument. Only legit posts were regarding having a good micro being advantageous at higher levels but not lower levels => nerfs were appropriate for higher levels but may have hurt those poorer micro too much. I think it's cause some of these posts are so loaded its infuriating. Though I'm sure I'm biased too, at least im trying to remember that every race has its strengths and weaknesses. Don't think T is op overall, though who is OP changes by player levels imo. But all those posts about P ezpz no skill race that can auto win with their no skill warp mechanics are really frustrating There are a number of reasons why stutter step is harder. Your units actually have to move, and you have to constantly be managing them. With blink your units teleport instantly, being able to abuse a variety of terrain features or unit walls, etc. You simply hit b and click some arbitrary distance in the general direction you want your unit to go. Your stalker will automatically blink the maximum distance. Play dota, if played correctly, a hero with blink is not supposed to die. Blink is essentially a get out of jail free card. It is the single most powerful and useful spell you can possess in a game that is so centered around positioning. I played random for 3 seasons. I had a lot more wins as protoss than T/Z despite protoss being my worst race. The fact of the matter is, most protoss don't even utilize half the options available to them. And it doesn't matter because they don't need to worry about inflicting economic damage or pressure in order to keep the lead. Now, the few Protoss that actually go the extra mile and attempt to use pheonix and prisms are literally unstoppable. how did you decide that protoss was your worst race if you won more with it?
Because it is a not-so-sublte balance whine about how protoss is OP and EZ mode, just ignore it.
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Worry not, my Terran brothers, for Blizzard is on the case! They're adding a ton of new stuff in HotS, so you can easily a-move across the map for the win just like the other races can. And thus the holy grail of balance for horrible players will be achieved. It will be oh so glorious.
:/
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On December 16 2011 03:57 halfies wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 03:48 krell wrote:
This will come off as a dumb argument for many. But I feel that I am a better player that most P and Z's I play. I get this from the APM in the replays and I am, on average, roughly double what my opponents are (I play around 130-140). The P's I play hover between 60 and 90, and the zergs from 100-125.
I love TvZ. I think the matchup is almost perfeclty balanced (although I sometimes feel mutas and mass mass lings can be a little too strong)
I absolutely despise playing TvP: I feel like it's almost a guaranteed loss every game. This matchup makes me want to switch races, but I've stuck it out with T since the early stages of beta. I get upset at P for any of their "innovative" builds because I feel like they are so overpowering (void ray / warp prism drops with front end attack, DT's, etc...) I know you can survive all of these, but they just make the game so un fun to play.
In TvT, I always go for strategies with intent on ending the game early. Too often TvT comes down to a 50 minute game with one decicive mistake, erasing your economy advantage. because of this, it makes me feel like this matchup is very random, but still interesting from time to time.
Anyways, just my two cents. the problem is that everyone thinks they are better, so self descriptions are hard to take at face value. im not saying your worse, but this game is pretty balanced now, despite all the QQing that goes on, and APM =/= skill. i mean, i feel like im better than everyone i play, but i still lose all the time, so obviously im not.
You are totally correct, based on the fact that it is essentially impossible to compare skill between two different races. The problem in the lower leagues is the 50/50 enforced winrate. The reason I use APM as a comparison point is because it's the only measure I can think of.
In many ways, it represents your multitasking capability, assuming you dont click just for the sake of clicking like many do.
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It doesn't surprise me at all that terran is the least played race. It's also the more frustating, a single missclick can cost you the game ( losing all your marines to a couple of banelings because you were building a supply depot ). The same doesn't apply to Zerg and Protoss, tho.
Also, it's fucking depressing seeing all your siege line getting crushed by a mass of ling/bane/muta a-moved towards your units, and seeing all your bio evaporating after a couple of colossus beam.
I guess that most of the low level players play just for the satisfaction of winning and decide to switch to zerg/toss because those race are more forgiving than terran.
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If you have an ELO style match making system you should generally see "imbalances" only at the highest levels of play, which is what you see -- On the KR GM server and in Code S, Terrans are still king by a fairly wide margin. As long as this continues, you're likely going to continue to see nerfs to Terran.
Even if the match at high levels is imbalanced, after players play enough games, if you have an ELO based matchmaking system, I believe that you should see relative "balance" (that is, relatively equal win rates) at all levels except the very highest -- assuming the game isn't wildly imbalanced where one race is winning say 80% or more of its match ups at a given level of play (other than GM) immediately following a patch change.
(Note the following is just my intuitition as to how it should work; I'm sure someone on here has the advanced statistical background to tell me why the below may or may not be applicable here.)
Imagine there are only two races. T and P. (I use ELO as a proxy for MMR below.)
1. All players at Time 1 have an equal win rate in mirror match ups and against the other race.
2. Balance changes are made and now a Terran in the Platinum division with ELO X loses against a P with ELO X 60% of the time but continues to beat Ts 50% of the time. Assume for simplicity all Terrans have the exact same win rate against P (that is 40%) and against T (50%).
3. For simplicity assume ELO is fixed for a period and then resets. After the most recent reset, Terran's with ELO X now have ELO .9X and Protoss with ELO X now have ELOs of 1.1X. (My assumptions regarding changes to ELO of course might be wrong, but I think whatever numbers you plug in there, you get the same general result.)
4. .Thus, 9X ELO terrans now play .9X ELO Protoss. (Pre-patch these protosses had ELOs of .81X and thus they received a bump).
5. Since the only driver in ELO scores is a player's TvP (since TvT is assumed to be 50-50 for every single player per 2. above), TvP is now 50/50 and "balanced" at all levels except perhaps at the very top of the ELO spectrum, where some Ts fall and some new Ps emerge and others simply improve.
A similar result should occur when you add Zerg to the mix, although it's a little more complicated. T players' ELOs drop (because P starts beating them more often) following the patch changes and become thus relatively stronger to Zerg players at lower ELO levels, which in turn causes Zerg to drop and thus higher ELO zergs will start playing lower ELO Ts. Eventually a stasis will emerge and thus the driver for players' ELOs will be their Protoss matchup. T players should therefore keep losing more often than not against P until their ELO reaches a point where the match up against P is once again 50/50.
I would be interested to get the forum's reaction on this topic. If I'm basically right, for most balance changes the only people who should ever whine that it makes a match up "imbalanced" are pros and the people who watch e-sports for fun.
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This looks like a bnet forum balance whine thread thinly weiled as a discussion about terrans in different leagues. Lots of terrans complaining about how hard everything is and how much greener the grass is on the other side...
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On December 16 2011 03:59 halfies wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 03:57 SupLilSon wrote:On December 16 2011 03:42 iokke wrote:On December 16 2011 03:35 SupLilSon wrote:On December 16 2011 03:25 gosuMalicE wrote:On December 16 2011 03:03 Termit wrote:On December 16 2011 02:55 lizzard_warish wrote:On December 16 2011 02:51 Termit wrote:
Yea Protoss is cosidered an easier and more beginner friendly race in BW but because of the mechanics in that game you still had to have skill to not suck ass when it came to army control and macro. Too bad sc2 makes it possible to be in the highest league on the ladder with like 85 EAPM when you play Protoss. The same goes for Zerg, because of larva injects and MBS any player, good mechanics or not can spend upp all his larva, remax and rally 40 lings into your main in a heartbeat, while it at least took some effort to spend your larva in BW, rallying every hatch to your opponens base like in sc2 can only the real gosus do in time in BW too but now everyone can do it.
I don't know how Blizzard would increase the mechanical part for Z and P but I don't think it will ever happen. In the end it will just be like in BW, every foreigner is gonna play P and Z and a few T while the real korean gosu players will be sick in the head with Terran because they are amazing players. What mechanics exist for terran pray tell? one hotkey for all your buildings, hold down a letter. ZOMG the stress! What a load of shit. hahaha! What about one hotkey for CC's, one for rax, one for factory one for starport that you constantly produce from. While you as protoss doesn't even need to hotkey your fucking warpgates because you press W and the letter for your god damn unit. And then semi-produce from stargate and robo but you will never produce from them like a Terran does. It's sad how offended you got because you are probably one of these 85 EAPM guys that struggle hardcore with Protoss mechanics. I just pray to higher powers that some day Blizzard get some fucking sense and removes warpgates so Protoss players have to learn to produce from gateways all game long without quing and keeping up production and have to rally their units instead of having the luctury to kill defenders advantage and spawn units where ever they want. Bye. Man Terran has it easy, hotkey all production facilities and keep pumping out units during battle using hotkeys only, while still able to micro. Whereas Protoss has to pan away from the battle to the nearest pylon (stopping all micro) and Individually click their mouse for each unit they want. A little more action intensive then 3aaaa*tab*ss. Not to mention Protoss has to have 2-3 hotkeys for each type of caster to spit from emps effectively. (and Protoss has much more caster/ability micro in battle then Terran). Stutter stepping is a joke and anyone who complains about having to do it belongs in bronze league, and its not even Terran exclusive Protoss use lots of stutter step micro too, not to forget blink micro, which is several orders of magnitude more difficult and apm intensive. And Protoss players wish they could pump out units from the robo/stargate like terrans do from the starport/factory, only our stargate units are overpriced and ineffective, and our robo units are also overpriced and can only be made in certain quantities before they start to lose effectiveness so it make complete sense that "they will never produce like a Terran". It sad how worked up you get, because you are probably one of the Terrans whose ladder ranking was artificially inflated when Terran was OP, and now that they aren't you cant handle the fact that you are lower on the ladder then you were before. So you blame it on imbalance, or the other races just being easier, or some other such nonsense so that you don't have to face the fact that you are not as good of a player as you think you are. Anyone and everyone would gladly trade terran or zerg production for warpgates. There is no downside to it, you have to look away for 1 second in order to instantly gain reinforcements wherever you want. Terran has to do much more splitting than Protoss ever will. Stutter stepping is much more difficult than blink micro. You can't even consider blink micro. You click a button and your unit teleports. Blink is consistently the strongest ability in any strategy game and in no game would anyone consider using blink as skill intensive. It's funny that you mention robo/stargate in comparison to factory/starport because many top level protoss rely heavily on the robo/stargate tech whereas Terrans almost never use factory/starport tech aside from medivacs and rarely banshees (almost never now). Vikings are only useful for the fact that they are the sole unit that can combat stargate/robo tech. Ill ask again, are you actually in the team gosu? Or did you just happen to make a username with the word gosu in it? How is blink that much easier than stutter step? you can make the same argument, click back, S, clickback, S etc. Now I feel dumb for getting sucked in into this argument. Only legit posts were regarding having a good micro being advantageous at higher levels but not lower levels => nerfs were appropriate for higher levels but may have hurt those poorer micro too much. I think it's cause some of these posts are so loaded its infuriating. Though I'm sure I'm biased too, at least im trying to remember that every race has its strengths and weaknesses. Don't think T is op overall, though who is OP changes by player levels imo. But all those posts about P ezpz no skill race that can auto win with their no skill warp mechanics are really frustrating There are a number of reasons why stutter step is harder. Your units actually have to move, and you have to constantly be managing them. With blink your units teleport instantly, being able to abuse a variety of terrain features or unit walls, etc. You simply hit b and click some arbitrary distance in the general direction you want your unit to go. Your stalker will automatically blink the maximum distance. Play dota, if played correctly, a hero with blink is not supposed to die. Blink is essentially a get out of jail free card. It is the single most powerful and useful spell you can possess in a game that is so centered around positioning. I played random for 3 seasons. I had a lot more wins as protoss than T/Z despite protoss being my worst race. The fact of the matter is, most protoss don't even utilize half the options available to them. And it doesn't matter because they don't need to worry about inflicting economic damage or pressure in order to keep the lead. Now, the few Protoss that actually go the extra mile and attempt to use pheonix and prisms are literally unstoppable. how did you decide that protoss was your worst race if you won more with it?
Because I never bothered to learn real builds or practice with them? I spent all my playing time that was not laddering practicing T and Z. Protoss just always seemed so simple. As Artosis said, you don't really need to practice a lot with protoss to maintain a constant skill level.
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On December 16 2011 03:43 gosuMalicE wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 03:35 SupLilSon wrote:On December 16 2011 03:25 gosuMalicE wrote:On December 16 2011 03:03 Termit wrote:On December 16 2011 02:55 lizzard_warish wrote:On December 16 2011 02:51 Termit wrote:
Yea Protoss is cosidered an easier and more beginner friendly race in BW but because of the mechanics in that game you still had to have skill to not suck ass when it came to army control and macro. Too bad sc2 makes it possible to be in the highest league on the ladder with like 85 EAPM when you play Protoss. The same goes for Zerg, because of larva injects and MBS any player, good mechanics or not can spend upp all his larva, remax and rally 40 lings into your main in a heartbeat, while it at least took some effort to spend your larva in BW, rallying every hatch to your opponens base like in sc2 can only the real gosus do in time in BW too but now everyone can do it.
I don't know how Blizzard would increase the mechanical part for Z and P but I don't think it will ever happen. In the end it will just be like in BW, every foreigner is gonna play P and Z and a few T while the real korean gosu players will be sick in the head with Terran because they are amazing players. What mechanics exist for terran pray tell? one hotkey for all your buildings, hold down a letter. ZOMG the stress! What a load of shit. hahaha! What about one hotkey for CC's, one for rax, one for factory one for starport that you constantly produce from. While you as protoss doesn't even need to hotkey your fucking warpgates because you press W and the letter for your god damn unit. And then semi-produce from stargate and robo but you will never produce from them like a Terran does. It's sad how offended you got because you are probably one of these 85 EAPM guys that struggle hardcore with Protoss mechanics. I just pray to higher powers that some day Blizzard get some fucking sense and removes warpgates so Protoss players have to learn to produce from gateways all game long without quing and keeping up production and have to rally their units instead of having the luctury to kill defenders advantage and spawn units where ever they want. Bye. Man Terran has it easy, hotkey all production facilities and keep pumping out units during battle using hotkeys only, while still able to micro. Whereas Protoss has to pan away from the battle to the nearest pylon (stopping all micro) and Individually click their mouse for each unit they want. A little more action intensive then 3aaaa*tab*ss. Not to mention Protoss has to have 2-3 hotkeys for each type of caster to spit from emps effectively. (and Protoss has much more caster/ability micro in battle then Terran). Stutter stepping is a joke and anyone who complains about having to do it belongs in bronze league, and its not even Terran exclusive Protoss use lots of stutter step micro too, not to forget blink micro, which is several orders of magnitude more difficult and apm intensive. And Protoss players wish they could pump out units from the robo/stargate like terrans do from the starport/factory, only our stargate units are overpriced and ineffective, and our robo units are also overpriced and can only be made in certain quantities before they start to lose effectiveness so it make complete sense that "they will never produce like a Terran". It sad how worked up you get, because you are probably one of the Terrans whose ladder ranking was artificially inflated when Terran was OP, and now that they aren't you cant handle the fact that you are lower on the ladder then you were before. So you blame it on imbalance, or the other races just being easier, or some other such nonsense so that you don't have to face the fact that you are not as good of a player as you think you are. Anyone and everyone would gladly trade terran or zerg production for warpgates. There is no downside to it, you have to look away for 1 second in order to instantly gain reinforcements wherever you want. Terran has to do much more splitting than Protoss ever will. Stutter stepping is much more difficult than blink micro. You can't even consider blink micro. You click a button and your unit teleports. Blink is consistently the strongest ability in any strategy game and in no game would anyone consider using blink as skill intensive. It's funny that you mention robo/stargate in comparison to factory/starport because many top level protoss rely heavily on the robo/stargate tech whereas Terrans almost never use factory/starport tech aside from medivacs and rarely banshees (almost never now). Vikings are only useful for the fact that they are the sole unit that can combat stargate/robo tech. Ill ask again, are you actually in the team gosu? Or did you just happen to make a username with the word gosu in it? I mentioned stargate/robo vs factory/starport in reply to the post i was responding to, not saying that Terran should be going mech or anything stupid like that against toss, don't put words in my mouth. And blink micro is not blinking a blob of stalkers from one place to another it is attacking with a large group of stalkers and individually blinking them back when their shields are depleted, it requires an insane amount of apm and focus to do properly, about on the same level as splitting marines against speed banes. Edit: It was my username before I even knew about the existence of the team, used it since back in beta.
What insane APM does blink micro require? It is quite literally 2 actions per stalker. You click B and then you left click some distance in the direction you want to blink.
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On December 16 2011 04:06 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 03:59 halfies wrote:On December 16 2011 03:57 SupLilSon wrote:On December 16 2011 03:42 iokke wrote:On December 16 2011 03:35 SupLilSon wrote:On December 16 2011 03:25 gosuMalicE wrote:On December 16 2011 03:03 Termit wrote:On December 16 2011 02:55 lizzard_warish wrote:On December 16 2011 02:51 Termit wrote:
Yea Protoss is cosidered an easier and more beginner friendly race in BW but because of the mechanics in that game you still had to have skill to not suck ass when it came to army control and macro. Too bad sc2 makes it possible to be in the highest league on the ladder with like 85 EAPM when you play Protoss. The same goes for Zerg, because of larva injects and MBS any player, good mechanics or not can spend upp all his larva, remax and rally 40 lings into your main in a heartbeat, while it at least took some effort to spend your larva in BW, rallying every hatch to your opponens base like in sc2 can only the real gosus do in time in BW too but now everyone can do it.
I don't know how Blizzard would increase the mechanical part for Z and P but I don't think it will ever happen. In the end it will just be like in BW, every foreigner is gonna play P and Z and a few T while the real korean gosu players will be sick in the head with Terran because they are amazing players. What mechanics exist for terran pray tell? one hotkey for all your buildings, hold down a letter. ZOMG the stress! What a load of shit. hahaha! What about one hotkey for CC's, one for rax, one for factory one for starport that you constantly produce from. While you as protoss doesn't even need to hotkey your fucking warpgates because you press W and the letter for your god damn unit. And then semi-produce from stargate and robo but you will never produce from them like a Terran does. It's sad how offended you got because you are probably one of these 85 EAPM guys that struggle hardcore with Protoss mechanics. I just pray to higher powers that some day Blizzard get some fucking sense and removes warpgates so Protoss players have to learn to produce from gateways all game long without quing and keeping up production and have to rally their units instead of having the luctury to kill defenders advantage and spawn units where ever they want. Bye. Man Terran has it easy, hotkey all production facilities and keep pumping out units during battle using hotkeys only, while still able to micro. Whereas Protoss has to pan away from the battle to the nearest pylon (stopping all micro) and Individually click their mouse for each unit they want. A little more action intensive then 3aaaa*tab*ss. Not to mention Protoss has to have 2-3 hotkeys for each type of caster to spit from emps effectively. (and Protoss has much more caster/ability micro in battle then Terran). Stutter stepping is a joke and anyone who complains about having to do it belongs in bronze league, and its not even Terran exclusive Protoss use lots of stutter step micro too, not to forget blink micro, which is several orders of magnitude more difficult and apm intensive. And Protoss players wish they could pump out units from the robo/stargate like terrans do from the starport/factory, only our stargate units are overpriced and ineffective, and our robo units are also overpriced and can only be made in certain quantities before they start to lose effectiveness so it make complete sense that "they will never produce like a Terran". It sad how worked up you get, because you are probably one of the Terrans whose ladder ranking was artificially inflated when Terran was OP, and now that they aren't you cant handle the fact that you are lower on the ladder then you were before. So you blame it on imbalance, or the other races just being easier, or some other such nonsense so that you don't have to face the fact that you are not as good of a player as you think you are. Anyone and everyone would gladly trade terran or zerg production for warpgates. There is no downside to it, you have to look away for 1 second in order to instantly gain reinforcements wherever you want. Terran has to do much more splitting than Protoss ever will. Stutter stepping is much more difficult than blink micro. You can't even consider blink micro. You click a button and your unit teleports. Blink is consistently the strongest ability in any strategy game and in no game would anyone consider using blink as skill intensive. It's funny that you mention robo/stargate in comparison to factory/starport because many top level protoss rely heavily on the robo/stargate tech whereas Terrans almost never use factory/starport tech aside from medivacs and rarely banshees (almost never now). Vikings are only useful for the fact that they are the sole unit that can combat stargate/robo tech. Ill ask again, are you actually in the team gosu? Or did you just happen to make a username with the word gosu in it? How is blink that much easier than stutter step? you can make the same argument, click back, S, clickback, S etc. Now I feel dumb for getting sucked in into this argument. Only legit posts were regarding having a good micro being advantageous at higher levels but not lower levels => nerfs were appropriate for higher levels but may have hurt those poorer micro too much. I think it's cause some of these posts are so loaded its infuriating. Though I'm sure I'm biased too, at least im trying to remember that every race has its strengths and weaknesses. Don't think T is op overall, though who is OP changes by player levels imo. But all those posts about P ezpz no skill race that can auto win with their no skill warp mechanics are really frustrating There are a number of reasons why stutter step is harder. Your units actually have to move, and you have to constantly be managing them. With blink your units teleport instantly, being able to abuse a variety of terrain features or unit walls, etc. You simply hit b and click some arbitrary distance in the general direction you want your unit to go. Your stalker will automatically blink the maximum distance. Play dota, if played correctly, a hero with blink is not supposed to die. Blink is essentially a get out of jail free card. It is the single most powerful and useful spell you can possess in a game that is so centered around positioning. I played random for 3 seasons. I had a lot more wins as protoss than T/Z despite protoss being my worst race. The fact of the matter is, most protoss don't even utilize half the options available to them. And it doesn't matter because they don't need to worry about inflicting economic damage or pressure in order to keep the lead. Now, the few Protoss that actually go the extra mile and attempt to use pheonix and prisms are literally unstoppable. how did you decide that protoss was your worst race if you won more with it? Because I never bothered to learn real builds or practice with them? I spent all my playing time that was not laddering practicing T and Z. Protoss just always seemed so simple. As Artosis said, you don't really need to practice a lot with protoss to maintain a constant skill level.
I also played random and i practiced builds for P and Z alot yet my T wins were higher.
Look at that, i can write unverifiable stuff with no substance or facts to argue points too!
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On December 14 2011 10:27 Kakoon wrote:
meh i dont think terran is underpowered.
Terran's strenght is early game and mid game with weak economy (usually)
So if you are in the low leagues you usually have to kill your opponent in the early to mid game or the mechanics are too weak in the late game. So i usually kill my oppont early or i pretty much give up.
However terrans are starting to find more and more builds that work in the late game so im not that discouraged. Plus seeing nerfs after nerfs gives me the feeling that terran players are always abusing the strenghts so BLIZZARD nerfs it. Which in a sense means the terran are the better and more creative players (it could be just me but terran mechanics allow for more creative play)
Really i dont think terran are weak they are jsut in a slump where terrans arent finding more builds to abuse..
As for the nerfs... bunker changes all the time??/ what is the point of this change anyways..... ghosts emp radius change/ i dont see the need, just change how emp works like make it take energy within a period of time so you can micro away from it....reaper change/ enough said.....and so on
Yes this is it, races are never weak, they just slump when they can't abuse. Or does this only apply to terran?
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Meh, I play Terran and I'll always splay Terran. That's it.
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im also sticking to terran but i have MAJOR issues at late-game against both zerg and protoss...so i revolve my game around harrassment early game (if i do no damage im pretty much dead, i just stall). oh, just for the sake of comparison, i play at 1k-1.1k masters
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On December 16 2011 02:43 -_- wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 02:37 xUnSeEnx wrote:On December 16 2011 02:34 Gelenn wrote:On December 16 2011 02:19 SKYFISH_ wrote:On December 16 2011 02:15 gosuMalicE wrote:On December 16 2011 02:09 xUnSeEnx wrote:On December 16 2011 02:07 gosuMalicE wrote:
Terran is in no way, shape or form harder to play then Protoss or Zerg, and the fact that every other post in this thread is a baddie who clams otherwise is quite hilarious.
LOLLLLLLLLLLLL. I am sorry I cannot contain the laughter and irony of this protoss posting on here. EDIT: My bad for the double post I just thought this statement was beyond hilarious and supremely mis-informed. Please explain to me how terran are switching to toss and receiving a vastly higher win rate/ etc. and toss main race and cannot win anything comparably when they race switch? Show me a toss player who off raced terran and does not lose. Take your balance whining and absurd (aka. made up on the spot) "facts" to the blizzard forums that kind of stuff isn't wanted on TL. how are those 'facts' made up when the majority of Terrans in this thread are reporting better results after switching to Toss/Zerg? i think its your ass that should be hauled to blizz's forums, kiddo I really didn't want to get involved in this shitstorm of a thread, but I just wanted to point out that anecdotal evidence does not count as "fact" and there is this little thing called "reporting bias"- you're obviously going to get way more terrans supporting the idea that their race is the hardest when asking about it on a thread that has the most interest to a player who already feels that way. If you want to actually want to establish this as a "fact," you would have to support it by taking a random sampling of zerg, terran, and protoss from the ladder, have them offrace a number of games each, and examine the results. Except a pro just posted here and agreed that Terran is alot harder than Zerg/Protoss, leave now please. That is a very important point. Professional players understand the game very well, and the fact that a Terran progamer thinks that Terran is the most difficult race is something to remember. However, and this is not a rhetorical question, would you feel the same about the issue if a Protoss progamer said that Protoss is the most difficult race to play. Now, as far I know, none have made that claim in this thread. But just as a hypothetical, if Huk comes into this thread and states: "Protoss it the most difficult race; because of the mobility of Z and T every time you move out on the map is a dive into shark infested waters" would you submit to his authority? Beasty's comment is certainly insightful.
I beleive that all pro players believe their race is difficult at different points of the game and all of them have different requirements that need to be taken account. It is easy to see the flaws in your specfic race, while being overly aware of the strenghts of another. As a protoss player, I am very aware that if my army is out of position when the terran army hits, they may be no recovering. Any protoss player, pro or otherwise, will tell you about the most one sided battles that lost them the game. I am sure terran would have similar stories of under estimating the range of force fields.
But none of this proves that one race is inbalanced or harder than the other. Each race reward specfic skill sets and styles of play. Personally I think zerg sounds difficult because not only do you have to balance making drones vs units, but there is no cancel button if you choose the wrong one. However, I never really think that then a zerg is up 30 supply in roachs and slamming them into my natural. At that moment zerg seems pretty busted, but when I take a step back I know that there was a point I could have won that game and just failed.
Or to put it another way, terran think that warp-ins and chrono make macro easier. Well, scans and flying buildings seem like the most wonderful things in the world to a Protoss. Oh, to build a nexus from the safty of my main base.
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It's taken me 300 games played to get to Diamond with Terran, all you need is some patience and a willingness to learn 
Then again, some aspects of Terran are very hard imo like controlling and positioning units and macroing (in a way) as compared to the other races and at times, it can be quite boring and slow to play the race.
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TvP seems pretty fucking impossible to win right now.
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Terran most boring? Well I've played every race with Zerg as my most-played and T and P around even, and in my opinion Terran is the most interesting and active race. So why does everyone say they're boring? You have the most builds you can do and most gameplay styles, how about you use more than just one?
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its just a natural race fluctuation that happens all the time...soon another race will be underplayed, its not like every race is played completely equally.
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On December 16 2011 04:02 gosuMalicE wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 03:59 halfies wrote:On December 16 2011 03:57 SupLilSon wrote:On December 16 2011 03:42 iokke wrote:On December 16 2011 03:35 SupLilSon wrote:On December 16 2011 03:25 gosuMalicE wrote:On December 16 2011 03:03 Termit wrote:On December 16 2011 02:55 lizzard_warish wrote:On December 16 2011 02:51 Termit wrote:
Yea Protoss is cosidered an easier and more beginner friendly race in BW but because of the mechanics in that game you still had to have skill to not suck ass when it came to army control and macro. Too bad sc2 makes it possible to be in the highest league on the ladder with like 85 EAPM when you play Protoss. The same goes for Zerg, because of larva injects and MBS any player, good mechanics or not can spend upp all his larva, remax and rally 40 lings into your main in a heartbeat, while it at least took some effort to spend your larva in BW, rallying every hatch to your opponens base like in sc2 can only the real gosus do in time in BW too but now everyone can do it.
I don't know how Blizzard would increase the mechanical part for Z and P but I don't think it will ever happen. In the end it will just be like in BW, every foreigner is gonna play P and Z and a few T while the real korean gosu players will be sick in the head with Terran because they are amazing players. What mechanics exist for terran pray tell? one hotkey for all your buildings, hold down a letter. ZOMG the stress! What a load of shit. hahaha! What about one hotkey for CC's, one for rax, one for factory one for starport that you constantly produce from. While you as protoss doesn't even need to hotkey your fucking warpgates because you press W and the letter for your god damn unit. And then semi-produce from stargate and robo but you will never produce from them like a Terran does. It's sad how offended you got because you are probably one of these 85 EAPM guys that struggle hardcore with Protoss mechanics. I just pray to higher powers that some day Blizzard get some fucking sense and removes warpgates so Protoss players have to learn to produce from gateways all game long without quing and keeping up production and have to rally their units instead of having the luctury to kill defenders advantage and spawn units where ever they want. Bye. Man Terran has it easy, hotkey all production facilities and keep pumping out units during battle using hotkeys only, while still able to micro. Whereas Protoss has to pan away from the battle to the nearest pylon (stopping all micro) and Individually click their mouse for each unit they want. A little more action intensive then 3aaaa*tab*ss. Not to mention Protoss has to have 2-3 hotkeys for each type of caster to spit from emps effectively. (and Protoss has much more caster/ability micro in battle then Terran). Stutter stepping is a joke and anyone who complains about having to do it belongs in bronze league, and its not even Terran exclusive Protoss use lots of stutter step micro too, not to forget blink micro, which is several orders of magnitude more difficult and apm intensive. And Protoss players wish they could pump out units from the robo/stargate like terrans do from the starport/factory, only our stargate units are overpriced and ineffective, and our robo units are also overpriced and can only be made in certain quantities before they start to lose effectiveness so it make complete sense that "they will never produce like a Terran". It sad how worked up you get, because you are probably one of the Terrans whose ladder ranking was artificially inflated when Terran was OP, and now that they aren't you cant handle the fact that you are lower on the ladder then you were before. So you blame it on imbalance, or the other races just being easier, or some other such nonsense so that you don't have to face the fact that you are not as good of a player as you think you are. Anyone and everyone would gladly trade terran or zerg production for warpgates. There is no downside to it, you have to look away for 1 second in order to instantly gain reinforcements wherever you want. Terran has to do much more splitting than Protoss ever will. Stutter stepping is much more difficult than blink micro. You can't even consider blink micro. You click a button and your unit teleports. Blink is consistently the strongest ability in any strategy game and in no game would anyone consider using blink as skill intensive. It's funny that you mention robo/stargate in comparison to factory/starport because many top level protoss rely heavily on the robo/stargate tech whereas Terrans almost never use factory/starport tech aside from medivacs and rarely banshees (almost never now). Vikings are only useful for the fact that they are the sole unit that can combat stargate/robo tech. Ill ask again, are you actually in the team gosu? Or did you just happen to make a username with the word gosu in it? How is blink that much easier than stutter step? you can make the same argument, click back, S, clickback, S etc. Now I feel dumb for getting sucked in into this argument. Only legit posts were regarding having a good micro being advantageous at higher levels but not lower levels => nerfs were appropriate for higher levels but may have hurt those poorer micro too much. I think it's cause some of these posts are so loaded its infuriating. Though I'm sure I'm biased too, at least im trying to remember that every race has its strengths and weaknesses. Don't think T is op overall, though who is OP changes by player levels imo. But all those posts about P ezpz no skill race that can auto win with their no skill warp mechanics are really frustrating There are a number of reasons why stutter step is harder. Your units actually have to move, and you have to constantly be managing them. With blink your units teleport instantly, being able to abuse a variety of terrain features or unit walls, etc. You simply hit b and click some arbitrary distance in the general direction you want your unit to go. Your stalker will automatically blink the maximum distance. Play dota, if played correctly, a hero with blink is not supposed to die. Blink is essentially a get out of jail free card. It is the single most powerful and useful spell you can possess in a game that is so centered around positioning. I played random for 3 seasons. I had a lot more wins as protoss than T/Z despite protoss being my worst race. The fact of the matter is, most protoss don't even utilize half the options available to them. And it doesn't matter because they don't need to worry about inflicting economic damage or pressure in order to keep the lead. Now, the few Protoss that actually go the extra mile and attempt to use pheonix and prisms are literally unstoppable. how did you decide that protoss was your worst race if you won more with it? Because it is a not-so-sublte balance whine about how protoss is OP and EZ mode, just ignore it.
oh, i realised that, but i wanted him to say it.
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On December 16 2011 04:20 Toppp wrote:
TvP seems pretty fucking impossible to win right now.
totally impossible.
thats why theres no protoss in the final of the blizzard cup. they were all too hard to beat and had to go home -.-
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On December 16 2011 04:13 tripper688 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 10:27 Kakoon wrote:
meh i dont think terran is underpowered.
Terran's strenght is early game and mid game with weak economy (usually)
So if you are in the low leagues you usually have to kill your opponent in the early to mid game or the mechanics are too weak in the late game. So i usually kill my oppont early or i pretty much give up.
However terrans are starting to find more and more builds that work in the late game so im not that discouraged. Plus seeing nerfs after nerfs gives me the feeling that terran players are always abusing the strenghts so BLIZZARD nerfs it. Which in a sense means the terran are the better and more creative players (it could be just me but terran mechanics allow for more creative play)
Really i dont think terran are weak they are jsut in a slump where terrans arent finding more builds to abuse..
As for the nerfs... bunker changes all the time??/ what is the point of this change anyways..... ghosts emp radius change/ i dont see the need, just change how emp works like make it take energy within a period of time so you can micro away from it....reaper change/ enough said.....and so on Yes this is it, races are never weak, they just slump when they can't abuse. Or does this only apply to terran?
PvZ was pretty bad for quite a while cause Protoss "abusive" 2-base timing pushes stopped working. Speaking of which, has any one found a macro build for Protoss yet? I've been strapped for time as of late and haven't managed to watch much Starcraft.
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EPT
