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France12750 Posts
Seeing your post gosuMalicE I felt necessary to check if you were NOT in the Gosu team.
And fortunately, you are not :D.
Anyways, why are some people talking about protoss needing to look away at the screen in order to warp-in, other races take longer to reinforce
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On December 16 2011 03:35 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 03:25 gosuMalicE wrote:On December 16 2011 03:03 Termit wrote:On December 16 2011 02:55 lizzard_warish wrote:On December 16 2011 02:51 Termit wrote:
Yea Protoss is cosidered an easier and more beginner friendly race in BW but because of the mechanics in that game you still had to have skill to not suck ass when it came to army control and macro. Too bad sc2 makes it possible to be in the highest league on the ladder with like 85 EAPM when you play Protoss. The same goes for Zerg, because of larva injects and MBS any player, good mechanics or not can spend upp all his larva, remax and rally 40 lings into your main in a heartbeat, while it at least took some effort to spend your larva in BW, rallying every hatch to your opponens base like in sc2 can only the real gosus do in time in BW too but now everyone can do it.
I don't know how Blizzard would increase the mechanical part for Z and P but I don't think it will ever happen. In the end it will just be like in BW, every foreigner is gonna play P and Z and a few T while the real korean gosu players will be sick in the head with Terran because they are amazing players. What mechanics exist for terran pray tell? one hotkey for all your buildings, hold down a letter. ZOMG the stress! What a load of shit. hahaha! What about one hotkey for CC's, one for rax, one for factory one for starport that you constantly produce from. While you as protoss doesn't even need to hotkey your fucking warpgates because you press W and the letter for your god damn unit. And then semi-produce from stargate and robo but you will never produce from them like a Terran does. It's sad how offended you got because you are probably one of these 85 EAPM guys that struggle hardcore with Protoss mechanics. I just pray to higher powers that some day Blizzard get some fucking sense and removes warpgates so Protoss players have to learn to produce from gateways all game long without quing and keeping up production and have to rally their units instead of having the luctury to kill defenders advantage and spawn units where ever they want. Bye. Man Terran has it easy, hotkey all production facilities and keep pumping out units during battle using hotkeys only, while still able to micro. Whereas Protoss has to pan away from the battle to the nearest pylon (stopping all micro) and Individually click their mouse for each unit they want. A little more action intensive then 3aaaa*tab*ss. Not to mention Protoss has to have 2-3 hotkeys for each type of caster to spit from emps effectively. (and Protoss has much more caster/ability micro in battle then Terran). Stutter stepping is a joke and anyone who complains about having to do it belongs in bronze league, and its not even Terran exclusive Protoss use lots of stutter step micro too, not to forget blink micro, which is several orders of magnitude more difficult and apm intensive. And Protoss players wish they could pump out units from the robo/stargate like terrans do from the starport/factory, only our stargate units are overpriced and ineffective, and our robo units are also overpriced and can only be made in certain quantities before they start to lose effectiveness so it make complete sense that "they will never produce like a Terran". It sad how worked up you get, because you are probably one of the Terrans whose ladder ranking was artificially inflated when Terran was OP, and now that they aren't you cant handle the fact that you are lower on the ladder then you were before. So you blame it on imbalance, or the other races just being easier, or some other such nonsense so that you don't have to face the fact that you are not as good of a player as you think you are. Anyone and everyone would gladly trade terran or zerg production for warpgates. There is no downside to it, you have to look away for 1 second in order to instantly gain reinforcements wherever you want. Terran has to do much more splitting than Protoss ever will. Stutter stepping is much more difficult than blink micro. You can't even consider blink micro. You click a button and your unit teleports. Blink is consistently the strongest ability in any strategy game and in no game would anyone consider using blink as skill intensive. It's funny that you mention robo/stargate in comparison to factory/starport because many top level protoss rely heavily on the robo/stargate tech whereas Terrans almost never use factory/starport tech aside from medivacs and rarely banshees (almost never now). Vikings are only useful for the fact that they are the sole unit that can combat stargate/robo tech. Ill ask again, are you actually in the team gosu? Or did you just happen to make a username with the word gosu in it?
How is blink that much easier than stutter step? you can make the same argument, click back, S, clickback, S etc.
Now I feel dumb for getting sucked in into this argument. Only legit posts were regarding having a good micro being advantageous at higher levels => nerfs were appropriate for higher levels but may have hurt those poorer micro too much.
I think it's cause some of these posts are so loaded its infuriating. Though I'm sure I'm biased too, at least im trying to remember that every race has its strengths and weaknesses. Don't think T is op overall, though who is OP changes by player levels imo. But all those posts about P ezpz no skill race that can auto win with their no skill warp mechanics are really frustrating
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On December 16 2011 03:35 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 03:25 gosuMalicE wrote:On December 16 2011 03:03 Termit wrote:On December 16 2011 02:55 lizzard_warish wrote:On December 16 2011 02:51 Termit wrote:
Yea Protoss is cosidered an easier and more beginner friendly race in BW but because of the mechanics in that game you still had to have skill to not suck ass when it came to army control and macro. Too bad sc2 makes it possible to be in the highest league on the ladder with like 85 EAPM when you play Protoss. The same goes for Zerg, because of larva injects and MBS any player, good mechanics or not can spend upp all his larva, remax and rally 40 lings into your main in a heartbeat, while it at least took some effort to spend your larva in BW, rallying every hatch to your opponens base like in sc2 can only the real gosus do in time in BW too but now everyone can do it.
I don't know how Blizzard would increase the mechanical part for Z and P but I don't think it will ever happen. In the end it will just be like in BW, every foreigner is gonna play P and Z and a few T while the real korean gosu players will be sick in the head with Terran because they are amazing players. What mechanics exist for terran pray tell? one hotkey for all your buildings, hold down a letter. ZOMG the stress! What a load of shit. hahaha! What about one hotkey for CC's, one for rax, one for factory one for starport that you constantly produce from. While you as protoss doesn't even need to hotkey your fucking warpgates because you press W and the letter for your god damn unit. And then semi-produce from stargate and robo but you will never produce from them like a Terran does. It's sad how offended you got because you are probably one of these 85 EAPM guys that struggle hardcore with Protoss mechanics. I just pray to higher powers that some day Blizzard get some fucking sense and removes warpgates so Protoss players have to learn to produce from gateways all game long without quing and keeping up production and have to rally their units instead of having the luctury to kill defenders advantage and spawn units where ever they want. Bye. Man Terran has it easy, hotkey all production facilities and keep pumping out units during battle using hotkeys only, while still able to micro. Whereas Protoss has to pan away from the battle to the nearest pylon (stopping all micro) and Individually click their mouse for each unit they want. A little more action intensive then 3aaaa*tab*ss. Not to mention Protoss has to have 2-3 hotkeys for each type of caster to spit from emps effectively. (and Protoss has much more caster/ability micro in battle then Terran). Stutter stepping is a joke and anyone who complains about having to do it belongs in bronze league, and its not even Terran exclusive Protoss use lots of stutter step micro too, not to forget blink micro, which is several orders of magnitude more difficult and apm intensive. And Protoss players wish they could pump out units from the robo/stargate like terrans do from the starport/factory, only our stargate units are overpriced and ineffective, and our robo units are also overpriced and can only be made in certain quantities before they start to lose effectiveness so it make complete sense that "they will never produce like a Terran". It sad how worked up you get, because you are probably one of the Terrans whose ladder ranking was artificially inflated when Terran was OP, and now that they aren't you cant handle the fact that you are lower on the ladder then you were before. So you blame it on imbalance, or the other races just being easier, or some other such nonsense so that you don't have to face the fact that you are not as good of a player as you think you are. Anyone and everyone would gladly trade terran or zerg production for warpgates. There is no downside to it, you have to look away for 1 second in order to instantly gain reinforcements wherever you want. Terran has to do much more splitting than Protoss ever will. Stutter stepping is much more difficult than blink micro. You can't even consider blink micro. You click a button and your unit teleports. Blink is consistently the strongest ability in any strategy game and in no game would anyone consider using blink as skill intensive. It's funny that you mention robo/stargate in comparison to factory/starport because many top level protoss rely heavily on the robo/stargate tech whereas Terrans almost never use factory/starport tech aside from medivacs and rarely banshees (almost never now). Vikings are only useful for the fact that they are the sole unit that can combat stargate/robo tech. Ill ask again, are you actually in the team gosu? Or did you just happen to make a username with the word gosu in it?
I mentioned stargate/robo vs factory/starport in reply to the post i was responding to, not saying that Terran should be going mech or anything stupid like that against toss, don't put words in my mouth. And blink micro is not blinking a blob of stalkers from one place to another it is attacking with a large group of stalkers and individually blinking them back when their shields are depleted, it requires an insane amount of apm and focus to do properly, about on the same level as splitting marines against speed banes.
Edit: It was my username before I even knew about the existence of the team, used it since back in beta.
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United States7483 Posts
On December 16 2011 03:32 Trsjnica wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 03:19 Serelitz wrote:On December 16 2011 03:17 petro1987 wrote:On December 16 2011 03:13 Serelitz wrote:On December 16 2011 03:07 petro1987 wrote:On December 16 2011 03:00 Fig wrote:
The main problem is that terran was designed to allow for plenty of micro to make its units more effective. The other races were not given nearly as many microable units. Being the only race that has so many units that are microable is a blessing and a curse. On one hand the best terrans can extract more value from their units than players of other races can. This is a big reason why terrans dominated for about the first 9 months of the game. However this domination meant that balance changes were made to give the other races more of a chance.
However the balance changes that occurred were NOT the right way of going about it.
They just made some units stronger and some weaker. Instead, Blizzard should be adding microability to the other races. Then every race has a high level of depth that scales with player skill.
TLDR: Terrans shouldn't be asking for less micro. That's how Blizzard got away with introducing the stupid idea of the no-micro Battle Hellion. Terrans should instead be asking for Blizzard to add more micro to the other races. This is a very reasonable post. It shows that not everyone is completely biased and there's hope after all =D. On topic, we are not asking for less micro to Terran. We are asking for the other races to made harder, just how you pointed out. It's Blizzard that is looking for an easier solution to the matter (battle-hellion, for instance). I already posted about this a few pages back, but I'll post it again: On December 16 2011 02:39 Serelitz wrote:On December 16 2011 02:28 Empire.Beastyqt wrote:
A lot of terrans are quitting because other 2 races are easier to play and require less practise which means less microing, less macroing, less multitasking = less stress, its same on lower leagues or on pro level.
So many pro players switched already to protoss or zerg and I know 2 more terrans from EU that will switch soon (if they didnt switch already), I checked Rainbow stream 2-3 days ago and he's protoss as well now lol, ForGG ladders half of his games as zerg so he might switch as well.
Problem for us terrans isnt that our race is too hard to play and we want it easier, we want other races to be harder to play. I agree but on the flipside, I think you too can know that not all races can be created equal, it's simply impossible. By example, you can look at BW - Protoss was generally considered a much easier race, but also quite a bit worse at the highest levels (with T being the best). I think this is a design issue already ingrained in SC2, and frankly unfixable at this point. You know that too. If you make protoss and zerg balanced around the 'same level of skill' for whatever amount that is measurable, you basically destroy them because they simply have much less opportunity for such things. If T as a race dominates, it'll become boring (I'm sure gomtvt felt the subscriber hit which is why they added Calm before the Storm). If T as a race is harder, the matchmaking system will hide it from most of the general masses and the pros will simply practice harder. I know what the better alternative is here. As I said, this isn't a design issue that's fixable. Blizzard will walk a fine line between balance and skill requirement, just like BW but in the end it's IMPOSSIBLE to get both completely equal. You've said this isn't a balance whine thread. But it sure as HELL has the quality of one, with Terran QQ and mindless bias holding the general tone. This discussion doesn't really lead anywhere anyway. I really wish this thread would just get locked. I do agree that it's impossible to get everything completely equal. But Blizzard has an opportunity in HotS (I know design can't be changed in WoL anymore) to make things a lot closer. But you know it won't happen because this isn't a simple design issue. There's similar issues that aren't going away either, like P's inherent supply efficiency due to expensive/synergizing units, the lack of defender's advantage due to balancing around warpgates, the list goes on. This is just another design flaw that will be balanced around, not removed. For better or for worse. You know this too. Protoss (in non-PvP) have a big defender's advantage against non-flying units in that they can forcefield ramps/chokes. This is especially true early in the game, before the Protoss efficiency starts to kick in. Ramps are basically useless to Zerg, while for Protoss, they're a huge offenseive (split armies) or defenseive (don't let army in) weapon.
Ramps are not useless to zerg, are you joking? Against terran ramps are the greatest weapon zerg's have against hellions: having just 6 lings up top can keep your main safe from runbys.
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On December 16 2011 02:48 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 02:41 halfies wrote:On December 16 2011 02:37 xUnSeEnx wrote:On December 16 2011 02:34 Gelenn wrote:On December 16 2011 02:19 SKYFISH_ wrote:On December 16 2011 02:15 gosuMalicE wrote:On December 16 2011 02:09 xUnSeEnx wrote:On December 16 2011 02:07 gosuMalicE wrote:
Terran is in no way, shape or form harder to play then Protoss or Zerg, and the fact that every other post in this thread is a baddie who clams otherwise is quite hilarious.
LOLLLLLLLLLLLL. I am sorry I cannot contain the laughter and irony of this protoss posting on here. EDIT: My bad for the double post I just thought this statement was beyond hilarious and supremely mis-informed. Please explain to me how terran are switching to toss and receiving a vastly higher win rate/ etc. and toss main race and cannot win anything comparably when they race switch? Show me a toss player who off raced terran and does not lose. Take your balance whining and absurd (aka. made up on the spot) "facts" to the blizzard forums that kind of stuff isn't wanted on TL. how are those 'facts' made up when the majority of Terrans in this thread are reporting better results after switching to Toss/Zerg? i think its your ass that should be hauled to blizz's forums, kiddo I really didn't want to get involved in this shitstorm of a thread, but I just wanted to point out that anecdotal evidence does not count as "fact" and there is this little thing called "reporting bias"- you're obviously going to get way more terrans supporting the idea that their race is the hardest when asking about it on a thread that has the most interest to a player who already feels that way. If you want to actually want to establish this as a "fact," you would have to support it by taking a random sampling of zerg, terran, and protoss from the ladder, have them offrace a number of games each, and examine the results. Except a pro just posted here and agreed that Terran is alot harder than Zerg/Protoss, leave now please. well, if you ask idra how hard terran is, you'll get different answer, and the idea that pros are unbiased is ridiculous. actually think before you ask people to leave, and maybe you wont look so stupid Let me know when IdrA actually acts on his assertions and switches to Terran. He won't, because it would be the end of his career and he would fall down into the relative obscurity of foreign Terran pros. There have already been a number of Terran pros switch to different races. Actions speak louder than words.
a few switches dont make a case, just like a pro saying one is harder doesnt mean its true. all im saying is that a pros endorsement doesn't mean the arguments closed. besides, do you really think MVP would play terran if it was mechanically much harder than Protoss/Zerg. hes fucking good, but he plays for the win, as can be evidenced by his regular 'cheeses'.
im not saying that any race is inherently harder than the others, as each race is so different its hard to make statements like that without actual experimental evidence, which obviously we dont have.
the switch in player numbers is most likely caused by the fact that terran has the most similar mechanics to alot of other strategy games. people starting the game from scratch therefore play it first, but after they play for a bit, they want to try something new, so they play either zerg or protoss, and thats the stage we are at now.
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On December 16 2011 03:40 Poopi wrote:
Seeing your post gosuMalicE I felt necessary to check if you were NOT in the Gosu team.
And fortunately, you are not :D.
Anyways, why are some people talking about protoss needing to look away at the screen in order to warp-in, other races take longer to reinforce
Apparently it is a huge issue that is just now discovered and disccused. Seriously though I have hard time seeing why some people make huge issue out of it when it has never been a problem. I have never heard any pro protoss players having any problems looking away from battlefield for few seconds to warp in reinforcements.
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This will come off as a dumb argument for many. But I feel that I am a better player that most P and Z's I play. I get this from the APM in the replays and I am, on average, roughly double what my opponents are (I play around 130-140). The P's I play hover between 60 and 90, and the zergs from 100-125.
I love TvZ. I think the matchup is almost perfeclty balanced (although I sometimes feel mutas and mass mass lings can be a little too strong)
I absolutely despise playing TvP: I feel like it's almost a guaranteed loss every game. This matchup makes me want to switch races, but I've stuck it out with T since the early stages of beta. I get upset at P for any of their "innovative" builds because I feel like they are so overpowering (void ray / warp prism drops with front end attack, DT's, etc...) I know you can survive all of these, but they just make the game so un fun to play.
In TvT, I always go for strategies with intent on ending the game early. Too often TvT comes down to a 50 minute game with one decicive mistake, erasing your economy advantage. because of this, it makes me feel like this matchup is very random, but still interesting from time to time.
Anyways, just my two cents.
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On December 16 2011 03:44 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 03:32 Trsjnica wrote:On December 16 2011 03:19 Serelitz wrote:On December 16 2011 03:17 petro1987 wrote:On December 16 2011 03:13 Serelitz wrote:On December 16 2011 03:07 petro1987 wrote:On December 16 2011 03:00 Fig wrote:
The main problem is that terran was designed to allow for plenty of micro to make its units more effective. The other races were not given nearly as many microable units. Being the only race that has so many units that are microable is a blessing and a curse. On one hand the best terrans can extract more value from their units than players of other races can. This is a big reason why terrans dominated for about the first 9 months of the game. However this domination meant that balance changes were made to give the other races more of a chance.
However the balance changes that occurred were NOT the right way of going about it.
They just made some units stronger and some weaker. Instead, Blizzard should be adding microability to the other races. Then every race has a high level of depth that scales with player skill.
TLDR: Terrans shouldn't be asking for less micro. That's how Blizzard got away with introducing the stupid idea of the no-micro Battle Hellion. Terrans should instead be asking for Blizzard to add more micro to the other races. This is a very reasonable post. It shows that not everyone is completely biased and there's hope after all =D. On topic, we are not asking for less micro to Terran. We are asking for the other races to made harder, just how you pointed out. It's Blizzard that is looking for an easier solution to the matter (battle-hellion, for instance). I already posted about this a few pages back, but I'll post it again: On December 16 2011 02:39 Serelitz wrote:On December 16 2011 02:28 Empire.Beastyqt wrote:
A lot of terrans are quitting because other 2 races are easier to play and require less practise which means less microing, less macroing, less multitasking = less stress, its same on lower leagues or on pro level.
So many pro players switched already to protoss or zerg and I know 2 more terrans from EU that will switch soon (if they didnt switch already), I checked Rainbow stream 2-3 days ago and he's protoss as well now lol, ForGG ladders half of his games as zerg so he might switch as well.
Problem for us terrans isnt that our race is too hard to play and we want it easier, we want other races to be harder to play. I agree but on the flipside, I think you too can know that not all races can be created equal, it's simply impossible. By example, you can look at BW - Protoss was generally considered a much easier race, but also quite a bit worse at the highest levels (with T being the best). I think this is a design issue already ingrained in SC2, and frankly unfixable at this point. You know that too. If you make protoss and zerg balanced around the 'same level of skill' for whatever amount that is measurable, you basically destroy them because they simply have much less opportunity for such things. If T as a race dominates, it'll become boring (I'm sure gomtvt felt the subscriber hit which is why they added Calm before the Storm). If T as a race is harder, the matchmaking system will hide it from most of the general masses and the pros will simply practice harder. I know what the better alternative is here. As I said, this isn't a design issue that's fixable. Blizzard will walk a fine line between balance and skill requirement, just like BW but in the end it's IMPOSSIBLE to get both completely equal. You've said this isn't a balance whine thread. But it sure as HELL has the quality of one, with Terran QQ and mindless bias holding the general tone. This discussion doesn't really lead anywhere anyway. I really wish this thread would just get locked. I do agree that it's impossible to get everything completely equal. But Blizzard has an opportunity in HotS (I know design can't be changed in WoL anymore) to make things a lot closer. But you know it won't happen because this isn't a simple design issue. There's similar issues that aren't going away either, like P's inherent supply efficiency due to expensive/synergizing units, the lack of defender's advantage due to balancing around warpgates, the list goes on. This is just another design flaw that will be balanced around, not removed. For better or for worse. You know this too. Protoss (in non-PvP) have a big defender's advantage against non-flying units in that they can forcefield ramps/chokes. This is especially true early in the game, before the Protoss efficiency starts to kick in. Ramps are basically useless to Zerg, while for Protoss, they're a huge offenseive (split armies) or defenseive (don't let army in) weapon. Ramps are not useless to zerg, are you joking? Against terran ramps are the greatest weapon zerg's have against hellions: having just 6 lings up top can keep your main safe from runbys.
I said basically useless. Queen blocks on ramps are useful in a pretty narrow range of circumstances (versus Hellion harass in ZvT and sometimes banelings in ZvZ). Forcefield on ramp is useful against all non-massive ground armies. (Except reapers and blink stalkers.)
Further, you aren't really discussing defender's advantage in some sense--that is more like preventing harass that a true defender's advantage situation.
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On December 16 2011 03:48 krell wrote:
This will come off as a dumb argument for many. But I feel that I am a better player that most P and Z's I play. I get this from the APM in the replays and I am, on average, roughly double what my opponents are (I play around 130-140). The P's I play hover between 60 and 90, and the zergs from 100-125...
This is the case for most of us no matter the race Kinda hard to admit that you were the worse player, got outplayed or you made mistakes, even subtle like missing timings, unless the opponent is way better than you. APM is not always am indicator or skill
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On December 16 2011 03:48 krell wrote:
In TvT, I always go for strategies with intent on ending the game early. Too often TvT comes down to a 50 minute game with one decicive mistake, erasing your economy advantage. because of this, it makes me feel like this matchup is very random, but still interesting from time to time.
I think TvT is the least random of all the mirrors, if that helps, although it is often just one mistake. (See game 1 of MVP vs MMA yesterday.)
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On December 16 2011 03:43 gosuMalicE wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 03:35 SupLilSon wrote:On December 16 2011 03:25 gosuMalicE wrote:On December 16 2011 03:03 Termit wrote:On December 16 2011 02:55 lizzard_warish wrote:On December 16 2011 02:51 Termit wrote:
Yea Protoss is cosidered an easier and more beginner friendly race in BW but because of the mechanics in that game you still had to have skill to not suck ass when it came to army control and macro. Too bad sc2 makes it possible to be in the highest league on the ladder with like 85 EAPM when you play Protoss. The same goes for Zerg, because of larva injects and MBS any player, good mechanics or not can spend upp all his larva, remax and rally 40 lings into your main in a heartbeat, while it at least took some effort to spend your larva in BW, rallying every hatch to your opponens base like in sc2 can only the real gosus do in time in BW too but now everyone can do it.
I don't know how Blizzard would increase the mechanical part for Z and P but I don't think it will ever happen. In the end it will just be like in BW, every foreigner is gonna play P and Z and a few T while the real korean gosu players will be sick in the head with Terran because they are amazing players. What mechanics exist for terran pray tell? one hotkey for all your buildings, hold down a letter. ZOMG the stress! What a load of shit. hahaha! What about one hotkey for CC's, one for rax, one for factory one for starport that you constantly produce from. While you as protoss doesn't even need to hotkey your fucking warpgates because you press W and the letter for your god damn unit. And then semi-produce from stargate and robo but you will never produce from them like a Terran does. It's sad how offended you got because you are probably one of these 85 EAPM guys that struggle hardcore with Protoss mechanics. I just pray to higher powers that some day Blizzard get some fucking sense and removes warpgates so Protoss players have to learn to produce from gateways all game long without quing and keeping up production and have to rally their units instead of having the luctury to kill defenders advantage and spawn units where ever they want. Bye. Man Terran has it easy, hotkey all production facilities and keep pumping out units during battle using hotkeys only, while still able to micro. Whereas Protoss has to pan away from the battle to the nearest pylon (stopping all micro) and Individually click their mouse for each unit they want. A little more action intensive then 3aaaa*tab*ss. Not to mention Protoss has to have 2-3 hotkeys for each type of caster to spit from emps effectively. (and Protoss has much more caster/ability micro in battle then Terran). Stutter stepping is a joke and anyone who complains about having to do it belongs in bronze league, and its not even Terran exclusive Protoss use lots of stutter step micro too, not to forget blink micro, which is several orders of magnitude more difficult and apm intensive. And Protoss players wish they could pump out units from the robo/stargate like terrans do from the starport/factory, only our stargate units are overpriced and ineffective, and our robo units are also overpriced and can only be made in certain quantities before they start to lose effectiveness so it make complete sense that "they will never produce like a Terran". It sad how worked up you get, because you are probably one of the Terrans whose ladder ranking was artificially inflated when Terran was OP, and now that they aren't you cant handle the fact that you are lower on the ladder then you were before. So you blame it on imbalance, or the other races just being easier, or some other such nonsense so that you don't have to face the fact that you are not as good of a player as you think you are. Anyone and everyone would gladly trade terran or zerg production for warpgates. There is no downside to it, you have to look away for 1 second in order to instantly gain reinforcements wherever you want. Terran has to do much more splitting than Protoss ever will. Stutter stepping is much more difficult than blink micro. You can't even consider blink micro. You click a button and your unit teleports. Blink is consistently the strongest ability in any strategy game and in no game would anyone consider using blink as skill intensive. It's funny that you mention robo/stargate in comparison to factory/starport because many top level protoss rely heavily on the robo/stargate tech whereas Terrans almost never use factory/starport tech aside from medivacs and rarely banshees (almost never now). Vikings are only useful for the fact that they are the sole unit that can combat stargate/robo tech. Ill ask again, are you actually in the team gosu? Or did you just happen to make a username with the word gosu in it? I mentioned stargate/robo vs factory/starport in reply to the post i was responding to, not saying that Terran should be going mech or anything stupid like that against toss, don't put words in my mouth. And blink micro is not blinking a blob of stalkers from one place to another it is attacking with a large group of stalkers and individually blinking them back when their shields are depleted, it requires an insane amount of apm and focus to do properly, about on the same level as splitting marines against speed banes.
I can't say i like the analogy of splitting marines against banelings vs. blink stalker micro mostly because blink stalker micro is very forgiving. If you go into an engagement and begin to micro just weak ones you can decide relatively quickly to blink the whole group away if it is not favorable for you to keep engaging. Of course terrans just stim and move away the whole group as well but normally that requires sacrificing siege tanks and also isnt possible on creep.
Just as a note I don't think that protoss or terran require particularly more micro than each other but I would mention that terran is more micro orientated to make their armies cost effective in the mid to late game while protoss tends to be more about the positioning of their army on the map.
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Protoss is challenging through and through. My friend with 0 multitasking and micro got into masters by 1a1a1aa1a FFF while chronoboosting upgrades.
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On December 16 2011 03:50 iokke wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 03:48 krell wrote:
This will come off as a dumb argument for many. But I feel that I am a better player that most P and Z's I play. I get this from the APM in the replays and I am, on average, roughly double what my opponents are (I play around 130-140). The P's I play hover between 60 and 90, and the zergs from 100-125...
This is the case for most of us no matter the race Kinda hard to admit that you were the worse player, got outplayed or you made mistakes, even subtle like missing timings, unless the opponent is way better than you. APM is not always am indicator or skill
Totally agree. I hate basing skill on APM and I know it's a stereotycal "noob" thing to do.
There are defeats where I realize my opponents has simply completely outplayed me. But when watching my replays I typically feel like it's hard to pinpoint any strategic errors on my part, only micro errors. And thus, as it was said before, I feel like I haven't improved at all in over 8 months (I have been on the verge of master's so many times, only to fall to several Protoss' in a row.)
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On December 16 2011 03:48 krell wrote:
This will come off as a dumb argument for many. But I feel that I am a better player that most P and Z's I play. I get this from the APM in the replays and I am, on average, roughly double what my opponents are (I play around 130-140). The P's I play hover between 60 and 90, and the zergs from 100-125.
Don't want to come of as a smartass but you're not doubling their apm if you play at an average of 135 and they at 75/113.
Also APM isn't a great measure of skill. Julyzerg has extreme APM yet he's not the best player ever, there's a bunch of other factors to look at.
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On December 16 2011 03:55 NoobCrunch wrote:
Protoss is challenging through and through. My friend with 0 multitasking and micro got into masters by 1a1a1aa1a FFF while chronoboosting upgrades.
Anecdotal evidence combined with bullshit claims should be bannable.
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On December 16 2011 03:42 iokke wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 03:35 SupLilSon wrote:On December 16 2011 03:25 gosuMalicE wrote:On December 16 2011 03:03 Termit wrote:On December 16 2011 02:55 lizzard_warish wrote:On December 16 2011 02:51 Termit wrote:
Yea Protoss is cosidered an easier and more beginner friendly race in BW but because of the mechanics in that game you still had to have skill to not suck ass when it came to army control and macro. Too bad sc2 makes it possible to be in the highest league on the ladder with like 85 EAPM when you play Protoss. The same goes for Zerg, because of larva injects and MBS any player, good mechanics or not can spend upp all his larva, remax and rally 40 lings into your main in a heartbeat, while it at least took some effort to spend your larva in BW, rallying every hatch to your opponens base like in sc2 can only the real gosus do in time in BW too but now everyone can do it.
I don't know how Blizzard would increase the mechanical part for Z and P but I don't think it will ever happen. In the end it will just be like in BW, every foreigner is gonna play P and Z and a few T while the real korean gosu players will be sick in the head with Terran because they are amazing players. What mechanics exist for terran pray tell? one hotkey for all your buildings, hold down a letter. ZOMG the stress! What a load of shit. hahaha! What about one hotkey for CC's, one for rax, one for factory one for starport that you constantly produce from. While you as protoss doesn't even need to hotkey your fucking warpgates because you press W and the letter for your god damn unit. And then semi-produce from stargate and robo but you will never produce from them like a Terran does. It's sad how offended you got because you are probably one of these 85 EAPM guys that struggle hardcore with Protoss mechanics. I just pray to higher powers that some day Blizzard get some fucking sense and removes warpgates so Protoss players have to learn to produce from gateways all game long without quing and keeping up production and have to rally their units instead of having the luctury to kill defenders advantage and spawn units where ever they want. Bye. Man Terran has it easy, hotkey all production facilities and keep pumping out units during battle using hotkeys only, while still able to micro. Whereas Protoss has to pan away from the battle to the nearest pylon (stopping all micro) and Individually click their mouse for each unit they want. A little more action intensive then 3aaaa*tab*ss. Not to mention Protoss has to have 2-3 hotkeys for each type of caster to spit from emps effectively. (and Protoss has much more caster/ability micro in battle then Terran). Stutter stepping is a joke and anyone who complains about having to do it belongs in bronze league, and its not even Terran exclusive Protoss use lots of stutter step micro too, not to forget blink micro, which is several orders of magnitude more difficult and apm intensive. And Protoss players wish they could pump out units from the robo/stargate like terrans do from the starport/factory, only our stargate units are overpriced and ineffective, and our robo units are also overpriced and can only be made in certain quantities before they start to lose effectiveness so it make complete sense that "they will never produce like a Terran". It sad how worked up you get, because you are probably one of the Terrans whose ladder ranking was artificially inflated when Terran was OP, and now that they aren't you cant handle the fact that you are lower on the ladder then you were before. So you blame it on imbalance, or the other races just being easier, or some other such nonsense so that you don't have to face the fact that you are not as good of a player as you think you are. Anyone and everyone would gladly trade terran or zerg production for warpgates. There is no downside to it, you have to look away for 1 second in order to instantly gain reinforcements wherever you want. Terran has to do much more splitting than Protoss ever will. Stutter stepping is much more difficult than blink micro. You can't even consider blink micro. You click a button and your unit teleports. Blink is consistently the strongest ability in any strategy game and in no game would anyone consider using blink as skill intensive. It's funny that you mention robo/stargate in comparison to factory/starport because many top level protoss rely heavily on the robo/stargate tech whereas Terrans almost never use factory/starport tech aside from medivacs and rarely banshees (almost never now). Vikings are only useful for the fact that they are the sole unit that can combat stargate/robo tech. Ill ask again, are you actually in the team gosu? Or did you just happen to make a username with the word gosu in it? How is blink that much easier than stutter step? you can make the same argument, click back, S, clickback, S etc. Now I feel dumb for getting sucked in into this argument. Only legit posts were regarding having a good micro being advantageous at higher levels but not lower levels => nerfs were appropriate for higher levels but may have hurt those poorer micro too much. I think it's cause some of these posts are so loaded its infuriating. Though I'm sure I'm biased too, at least im trying to remember that every race has its strengths and weaknesses. Don't think T is op overall, though who is OP changes by player levels imo. But all those posts about P ezpz no skill race that can auto win with their no skill warp mechanics are really frustrating
There are a number of reasons why stutter step is harder. Your units actually have to move, and you have to constantly be managing them. With blink your units teleport instantly, being able to abuse a variety of terrain features or unit walls, etc. You simply hit b and click some arbitrary distance in the general direction you want your unit to go. Your stalker will automatically blink the maximum distance. Play dota, if played correctly, a hero with blink is not supposed to die. Blink is essentially a get out of jail free card. It is the single most powerful and useful spell you can possess in a game that is so centered around positioning.
I played random for 3 seasons. I had a lot more wins as protoss than T/Z despite protoss being my worst race. The fact of the matter is, most protoss don't even utilize half the options available to them. And it doesn't matter because they don't need to worry about inflicting economic damage or pressure in order to keep the lead. Now, the few Protoss that actually go the extra mile and attempt to use pheonix and prisms are literally unstoppable.
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Per original post: I'm a gold Terran that's off raced and thought about switching. But I'm a casual player so the amount of strategy / mechanics (albeit not very well) / and feel for the other races is something I don't have the time to relearn at the moment because of school and work.
The reason I would prefer to switch from Terran is that I don't like the late game. Ghosts are cool I get it, but it seems that both Protoss and Zerg have a bit more options. I could be wrong because I actually don't understand the ZvP, ZvZ, or PvP matchup. For example, against Protoss I believe I'm limited to either 1 rax FE, 2 rax expand with pressure, or cloaked banshee as viable openers. Regardless of my choice, I then create the bio ball and add ghosts / vikings / medivacs for the entire game. I know there are tactics (drops / nukes / multi prong attacks) that make it more interesting, but my multi tasking is limited by my ability to practice these tactics. Additionally, I'm not going to tech switch to air in the mid / late game because it isn't viable. But I find that in PvT the protoss has more options. Gate / Robo / expand into Blink / Colossus / phoenix / DT map control / HT / Archon / Chargelot. (Obviously not one strategy).
In TvZ, I have two options. Marine Tank Medivac or Mech. But Zerg is in the same situation, it is either ling / bling / muta or ling / infestor (or Mass Hydra!). So in this matchup I would prefer to play zerg. But that's because Leenock makes it look so cool.
Other than learning the new races, the mirror match ups are frightening. Coming from a TvT background, I'm used to having multiple strategies the players can go for and not automatically lose to the other player. Plus expanding isn't an immediate death sentance like it can be in other mirrors. In ZvZ, one missed inject can ruin the game. One small micro mistake (this is true in all matchups, but ZvZ seems very volatile) and it is over. And in PvP, well that was dominated by four gates for the longest time so I don't really see a new standard yet (please don't tell me what it is - not the point). The strength of the protoss units makes this matchup tough in the early game because one additional stalker can make a lot of difference. Overall I think the units in Terran allow for a good mirror matchup (until Rain and Boxer play each other).
I really don't understand the "harder to play" argument at anything other than the highest levels. But then again, most pros believe their race has problems because they have a problem in a match up. It's hard to say my race is great, I just need to practice more. They are already practicing upwards of 10 hours a day. But for lower levels, if something is harder it is because you need to practice. Zerg has to practice their macro cycle (inject / production / droning vs units decision / scouting / creep spread / harassing and unit positioning). Protoss has to practice whatever they do and so do Terran. If a Terran is having a tough time against something at a lower level its because they don't hash it out. I don't and I know that when I lose it is because I'm bad and don't work on the techniques I need to, not because my race is harder / under powered. If it seems alright at the pro level, take a look and see why they win and you don't. And you don't even need to execute it as well as them. They need to execute it perfectly because they are playing against other pros. You are playing against a skill level that is close to yours.
To digress, I do wish I could switch only to have more options and I think I would change to protoss. If I could pull a Morrow and decide my race based on my opponent on ladder I would play TvP, PvZ, and ZvT. But I can't, so until I have time to learn something new I'll stay as Terran, but once school gives me a break in the spring I'm sure I'll change.
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On December 16 2011 03:48 krell wrote:
This will come off as a dumb argument for many. But I feel that I am a better player that most P and Z's I play. I get this from the APM in the replays and I am, on average, roughly double what my opponents are (I play around 130-140). The P's I play hover between 60 and 90, and the zergs from 100-125.
I love TvZ. I think the matchup is almost perfeclty balanced (although I sometimes feel mutas and mass mass lings can be a little too strong)
I absolutely despise playing TvP: I feel like it's almost a guaranteed loss every game. This matchup makes me want to switch races, but I've stuck it out with T since the early stages of beta. I get upset at P for any of their "innovative" builds because I feel like they are so overpowering (void ray / warp prism drops with front end attack, DT's, etc...) I know you can survive all of these, but they just make the game so un fun to play.
In TvT, I always go for strategies with intent on ending the game early. Too often TvT comes down to a 50 minute game with one decicive mistake, erasing your economy advantage. because of this, it makes me feel like this matchup is very random, but still interesting from time to time.
Anyways, just my two cents.
the problem is that everyone thinks they are better, so self descriptions are hard to take at face value. im not saying your worse, but this game is pretty balanced now, despite all the QQing that goes on, and APM =/= skill.
i mean, i feel like im better than everyone i play, but i still lose all the time, so obviously im not.
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On December 16 2011 03:57 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 03:42 iokke wrote:On December 16 2011 03:35 SupLilSon wrote:On December 16 2011 03:25 gosuMalicE wrote:On December 16 2011 03:03 Termit wrote:On December 16 2011 02:55 lizzard_warish wrote:On December 16 2011 02:51 Termit wrote:
Yea Protoss is cosidered an easier and more beginner friendly race in BW but because of the mechanics in that game you still had to have skill to not suck ass when it came to army control and macro. Too bad sc2 makes it possible to be in the highest league on the ladder with like 85 EAPM when you play Protoss. The same goes for Zerg, because of larva injects and MBS any player, good mechanics or not can spend upp all his larva, remax and rally 40 lings into your main in a heartbeat, while it at least took some effort to spend your larva in BW, rallying every hatch to your opponens base like in sc2 can only the real gosus do in time in BW too but now everyone can do it.
I don't know how Blizzard would increase the mechanical part for Z and P but I don't think it will ever happen. In the end it will just be like in BW, every foreigner is gonna play P and Z and a few T while the real korean gosu players will be sick in the head with Terran because they are amazing players. What mechanics exist for terran pray tell? one hotkey for all your buildings, hold down a letter. ZOMG the stress! What a load of shit. hahaha! What about one hotkey for CC's, one for rax, one for factory one for starport that you constantly produce from. While you as protoss doesn't even need to hotkey your fucking warpgates because you press W and the letter for your god damn unit. And then semi-produce from stargate and robo but you will never produce from them like a Terran does. It's sad how offended you got because you are probably one of these 85 EAPM guys that struggle hardcore with Protoss mechanics. I just pray to higher powers that some day Blizzard get some fucking sense and removes warpgates so Protoss players have to learn to produce from gateways all game long without quing and keeping up production and have to rally their units instead of having the luctury to kill defenders advantage and spawn units where ever they want. Bye. Man Terran has it easy, hotkey all production facilities and keep pumping out units during battle using hotkeys only, while still able to micro. Whereas Protoss has to pan away from the battle to the nearest pylon (stopping all micro) and Individually click their mouse for each unit they want. A little more action intensive then 3aaaa*tab*ss. Not to mention Protoss has to have 2-3 hotkeys for each type of caster to spit from emps effectively. (and Protoss has much more caster/ability micro in battle then Terran). Stutter stepping is a joke and anyone who complains about having to do it belongs in bronze league, and its not even Terran exclusive Protoss use lots of stutter step micro too, not to forget blink micro, which is several orders of magnitude more difficult and apm intensive. And Protoss players wish they could pump out units from the robo/stargate like terrans do from the starport/factory, only our stargate units are overpriced and ineffective, and our robo units are also overpriced and can only be made in certain quantities before they start to lose effectiveness so it make complete sense that "they will never produce like a Terran". It sad how worked up you get, because you are probably one of the Terrans whose ladder ranking was artificially inflated when Terran was OP, and now that they aren't you cant handle the fact that you are lower on the ladder then you were before. So you blame it on imbalance, or the other races just being easier, or some other such nonsense so that you don't have to face the fact that you are not as good of a player as you think you are. Anyone and everyone would gladly trade terran or zerg production for warpgates. There is no downside to it, you have to look away for 1 second in order to instantly gain reinforcements wherever you want. Terran has to do much more splitting than Protoss ever will. Stutter stepping is much more difficult than blink micro. You can't even consider blink micro. You click a button and your unit teleports. Blink is consistently the strongest ability in any strategy game and in no game would anyone consider using blink as skill intensive. It's funny that you mention robo/stargate in comparison to factory/starport because many top level protoss rely heavily on the robo/stargate tech whereas Terrans almost never use factory/starport tech aside from medivacs and rarely banshees (almost never now). Vikings are only useful for the fact that they are the sole unit that can combat stargate/robo tech. Ill ask again, are you actually in the team gosu? Or did you just happen to make a username with the word gosu in it? How is blink that much easier than stutter step? you can make the same argument, click back, S, clickback, S etc. Now I feel dumb for getting sucked in into this argument. Only legit posts were regarding having a good micro being advantageous at higher levels but not lower levels => nerfs were appropriate for higher levels but may have hurt those poorer micro too much. I think it's cause some of these posts are so loaded its infuriating. Though I'm sure I'm biased too, at least im trying to remember that every race has its strengths and weaknesses. Don't think T is op overall, though who is OP changes by player levels imo. But all those posts about P ezpz no skill race that can auto win with their no skill warp mechanics are really frustrating There are a number of reasons why stutter step is harder. Your units actually have to move, and you have to constantly be managing them. With blink your units teleport instantly, being able to abuse a variety of terrain features or unit walls, etc. You simply hit b and click some arbitrary distance in the general direction you want your unit to go. Your stalker will automatically blink the maximum distance. Play dota, if played correctly, a hero with blink is not supposed to die. Blink is essentially a get out of jail free card. It is the single most powerful and useful spell you can possess in a game that is so centered around positioning. I played random for 3 seasons. I had a lot more wins as protoss than T/Z despite protoss being my worst race. The fact of the matter is, most protoss don't even utilize half the options available to them. And it doesn't matter because they don't need to worry about inflicting economic damage or pressure in order to keep the lead. Now, the few Protoss that actually go the extra mile and attempt to use pheonix and prisms are literally unstoppable.
how did you decide that protoss was your worst race if you won more with it?
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On December 16 2011 03:56 krell wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 03:50 iokke wrote:On December 16 2011 03:48 krell wrote:
This will come off as a dumb argument for many. But I feel that I am a better player that most P and Z's I play. I get this from the APM in the replays and I am, on average, roughly double what my opponents are (I play around 130-140). The P's I play hover between 60 and 90, and the zergs from 100-125...
This is the case for most of us no matter the race Kinda hard to admit that you were the worse player, got outplayed or you made mistakes, even subtle like missing timings, unless the opponent is way better than you. APM is not always am indicator or skill Totally agree. I hate basing skill on APM and I know it's a stereotycal "noob" thing to do. There are defeats where I realize my opponents has simply completely outplayed me. But when watching my replays I typically feel like it's hard to pinpoint any strategic errors on my part, only micro errors. And thus, as it was said before, I feel like I haven't improved at all in over 8 months (I have been on the verge of master's so many times, only to fall to several Protoss' in a row.)
lol that's funny, this is exactly where I have been past 6 moths, only i go on lose streaks vs T or Z in waves, lately its been Z. I'd suggest finding stronger players and getting them to watch your replays and pinpoint your mistakes, maybe even make a thread or post with replays in help me thread?
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EPT
