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On December 14 2011 00:13 flodeskum wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 00:01 The KY wrote:On December 13 2011 22:33 Waxangel wrote:On December 13 2011 22:28 Crais wrote:
In soccer last year Wolves fielded a weakened team on purpose vs Manchester United so that they could rest their players for a later game. Caused a shit storm, ticket refunds, fines. EPL actually has a rule that says you must field a full strength side or something tho, unlike american sports I don't remember that game at all. It's very common in football to send out your B team to rest A team players for more important games. Very very common, in fact. For example now that Man U are in the Europa League, you can be damn sure they won't be fielding the players they do against the top flight teams...and no one will say a damn word about it. Yep and nobody said a word when United rested their entire starting lineup vs Hull in order to prepare for the CL final - and that game could have saved Hull from relegation, so it could have had massive implications. This happens all the time in football. The only two examples I can remember of fines (and very small ones tbf) being handed out are the wolves vs utd and blackpool vs villa last season. But both incidents were highly controversial even though the PL has rules against this. Let's remember, there are no rules against this in SC2. Players also do this all the time in starcraft. They just don't do it as blatantly as naniwa did.
which is precisely the difference between professional sports and amateur sports
edit: its still an abhorrent comparison though
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Just wanted to say that regardless of the stance this a really well written argument.
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how can you compare this to a baseball game that was actually played? that is just an absolutely awful comparison. oh and the suck for luck thing isnt real, nfl teams arent trying to lose. EVERYONE said miami was doing suck for luck but they won 3 games in a row. suck for luck is just a made up term by the media for more ratings, if any team intentionally threw a game like naniwa did there would be a huge punishment.
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Brazil1429 Posts
On December 13 2011 23:27 Crashburn wrote:
If strategy_winrate =< 0
then strategy = invalid
If strategy_winrate > 0
then strategy = valid
Unless you can prove that strategy_winrate (in this case, worker-rushing) is zero, you can't really fall on the "this strategy was designed to lose" argument. Obviously, this taking an already inane debate to another extreme, but really, that argument needs to die. If you continue to go with it, then you must logically set an arbitrary threshold at some point. Is it strategy_winrate = 0.1%? Why not 0.2%? Or 0.01%? If you can't explain that, then you have no business making the argument.
Obviously, GOM can set their rules (which, as far as I know, are presently nonexistent) however they want, just as baseball has a logical inconsistency in banning amphetamines, but not energy drinks. I wouldn't have a problem with that.
Hi OP.
What is the win-rate of a 6 probe rush in a live, televised match?
Also, you need to count the execution. Strategy by itself means nothing, you need to execute it, and Nani didn't place any effort at microing. Your logic completely miss the execution. As I see, Nani threw the game. It doesn't matter which strategy he played. Not putting any effort at playing the game, whatever strategy he used, is what decides validity or invalidity.
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Brazil1429 Posts
EDIT: Double-post, sorry.
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I understand the original argument, and while it has some relevance to the situation, they are not all that similar. First of all, he isn't playing the Reds, he's playing NesTea, could not really be more different in terms of prestige or notoriety (one of the best players in the world, albiet in a slump, vs an incredibly mediocre franchise with an almost non-existant fanbase). You would think a team would at least put forth some effort in the equivalent of a nationally televised game (internationally televised in this case) against a high profile opponent (for this argument's sake we will say the Red Sox, wildly popular...didn't make the playoffs).
Also as a sports writer I'm surprised you are just pointing out that the Astros just suck. Plate appearances for a last place team decimated by midyear trades (Bourn, Pence, Keppinger all starters traded mid year for prospects) after september call-ups? how is that going to accurately portray effort? They started their best pitcher (Wandy) and almost all their best players.
Shafer is their CF of the future
Shuck is a prospect...maybe not their best but they are giving him so ABs
Johnson and Barmes are their starters
Lee is their best hitter
Towles is their 1B catcher with quintero
they could have started Altuve and Brett Wallace but Wallace wasnt hitting too well and people need a day off every once in a while.
Playing against a Marquee player in THE Marquee SC2 Tournament in the World and pulling that is nothing like playing some prospects against the Reds
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It's 2am so forgive if this is a terrible point but do other sports and stuff have tournaments set up in such a way where some people have to play pointless games like which was the case here?
But really, as much as it does suck for the viewers, he is the player and he is more than entitled to play however the fuck he wants and for anyone to claim that he HAS to play in any certain manner is just a selfish and entitled position to take, he owes no one anything.
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I lie somewhere in the middle regarding the situation with Naniwa, I'm not infuriated with him and asking GOM for my money back, but I do not think his actions were acceptable.
To parallel your sports analogy, those teams are self-contained systems with a responsibility only to the team. The team generates revenue and pays the players, they do not have external obligations. I more closely relate the professional SC2 scene to the X-Sports where it's sponsorship based. In this context there are very clear obligations to REPRESENT the sponsors and organization appropriately.
Moreover, when teams put out their b-list players they're still finishing the game. When Oakland was trailing Green Bay by 30-whatever at the half did they just kneel out the 2nd half? no they finished the game. Granted this context is more difficult in SC2 where there is no set time, but the disconnect in analogy needs to be made clear.
There's also the issue of branding yourself. eSports may be growing rapidly but we're not there yet. Players aren't living luxurious lives for the most part. Things like player streams, twitter accounts, AMAs, etc aren't for the benefit of the players' skill, it's about building a brand.
Hamzilla had a great point that it's not officially written because it's implied in the Korean culture. To need explicit boundaries on what can and cannot be done is a very western idea because quite honestly people don't have any respect for what they do. There's a high level of respect and privilege in being given opportunities in an Asian culture and so many things are "to be expected" because it's a cultural norm not to disrespect an organization that has given you an opportunity to pursue your dream.
The other thing that players, teams, organizations, fans, and spectators need to be aware of that actions like this do DAMAGE to the movement in legitimizing eSports. Sure sometimes MLB teams may put out a B-list line-up or NFL teams rest their starters, but don't forget how much money those leagues make for advertisers, networks, and the teams the other 99 out of 100 times. It's permissible because it's fiscally mitigated by the overall gains. Trying to get a network to go out of its way and take a risk on broadcasting an eSports event doesn't want the risk of something like this happening.
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On December 13 2011 23:37 Crashburn wrote:
BTW, for the people claiming that A) the Astros were justified in sending out their B-team and B) Naniwa owes it to the fans to play the game out, I ask you, what lineup did Astros fans pay to see when they bought their ticket? Did they pay to see Scrubby McScrubberson, who will toil on shoddy buses in the Minor Leagues for the next three years, or did they pay to see Veteran McAwesomesauce, a cornerstone of the franchise?
Carlos Lee played in the game. As I'm from Houston, he's basically the only Veteran McAwesomesauce that they have.
I realize that since you are from ESPN, if it's not the Yankees or the Red Sox then you have very little idea of the teams, but the Astros have a dismal lineup this year. If I was a fan, (I'm a Cubs fan) then yes. Yes, I would be craving to see what the farm system can do. I would be craving to see the future of the team.
I'm taken aback at your gross ineptitude throughout this entire thread honestly.
EDIT: Looks at their roster How many people with 500 ABs do you see?
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How many of you were actually at the GOM Studio? None of us asked for our money back, and I certainly would feel bad about accepting a refund after getting to watch such amazing games followed by a great tie breaker! I'm sorry that 1 game out of the 1000's you will watch with that year GOMtv pass wasn't spectacular, but you do not deserve a refund.
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A worker rush isn't really the same as putting in your B team.
If Naniwa had just done a half-hearted one-base all-in, fine. But working rushing is the same as if an entire basketball team just walked around the field doing nothing for an entire game.
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On December 13 2011 22:15 Crashburn wrote:It's September 21, 2011. The 49-96 Houston Astros are in Cincinnati, Ohio to play the 76-80 Reds. Both teams below the .500 mark, the game has no meaning whatsoever -- not for the Astros, not for the Reds, not for any other team in the division (NL Central). As bad as the Astros were that season, they did have what could be deemed an A-lineup, a lineup consisting of their best players at each position. That was not the lineup they used on this Wednesday afternoon. A typical full-time Major League hitter accrues in excess of 600 plate appearances in a single season. Here is a look at the lineup the Astros used along with each player's PA total: Jordan Schafer, CF (118 PA) J.B. Shuck, RF (92 PA) J.D. Martinez, LF (226 PA) Carlos Lee, 1B (653 PA) Matt Downs, 2B (222 PA) Chris Johnson, 3B (405 PA) Clint Barmes, SS (495 PA) J.R. Towles, C (165 PA) Pitcher (pitchers get significantly fewer PA than position players, so this is irrelevant) The average hitter in the lineup had about 300 PA, or half that of a full-time player. Needless to say, the Astros were intentionally putting out a sub-par lineup. To prove that, let's look at their offensive production using a statistic called weighted on-base average (wOBA). The league average is between .310-.320. Schafer, .298 Shuck, .312 Martinez, .319 Lee, .339 Downs, .373 Johnson, .289 Barmes, .308 Towles, .245 Only two Astros made it above the .320 threshold. It is safe to say that the Astros were, uh, not trying their hardest to win that afternoon's game. I bring this up because a controversy arose earlier after both Naniwa and Nestea went 0-3 in their group in the Blizzard Cup. With eight of ten matches already completed, the fates of both players were sealed, making their match-up in Game #9 meaningless. Naniwa chose, instead of playing out an irrelevant game, to rush with his six starting workers across the map of Antiga Shipyard towards Nestea's base. Needless to say, the probe rush did not succeed; Naniwa dropped to 0-4 while Nestea erased the goose egg in his wins column. Quickly after the game, TL and Reddit were on fire with complaints from community members, claiming that Naniwa's behavior was immature and disrespectful. Some called for punishment to be levied from GOM; others angrily sent emails to Naniwa's new team, Quantic Gaming. I seem to be in the minority thinking that Naniwa did nothing wrong, just as the Astros above did nothing wrong by putting out their "B-lineup" several months ago in the final weeks of the baseball season. First of all, the blame should lie with GOM for going with a tournament structure in which players were given the unsavory choice of forfeiting a match (whether officially or by worker-rushing) or playing out an irrelevant game. Being a pro-gamer is difficult, just ask HuK, who has traveled across the globe to the point of mental and physical exhaustion. I sympathize with players who do not want to waste time and energy playing out a meaningless game, especially after going 0-3 in front of hundreds of thousands of people. Secondly, the ire directed at Naniwa assumes a worker rush is not a valid strategy. No, a worker rush is not a high-percentage strategy, but it is non-zero, which makes it valid nonetheless. If we are to harangue Naniwa for probe-rushing, then what is to stop us from doing the same with other similarly-fateful strategies? We need to have lines here, and they cannot be drawn arbitrarily. More importantly, they should be drawn officially. I don't see anywhere on the GOM website where they have official rules for their tournaments, but something like that should be addressed in written word. Such ruling does not exist in most (if not all) professional sports; teams are allowed to tank on purpose. This is especially prevalent in the NBA, when teams will intentionally lose to increase the probability that they get a good draft pick in the lottery. It happens in the NFL as well. In fact, the phrase " suck for Luck" refers to teams taking a dive every week so they are better suited to draft college quarterback Andrew Luck, currently at Stanford University. A common refrain I've read is that Naniwa owes it to GOM, the sponsors, his team, the fans, etc. to play out the meaningless game. And that is just flat-out wrong. Naniwa's job is to win games -- that is, win games that matter. Winning that game against Nestea would not have done anything for Naniwa except earn a couple brownie points (in other words, nothing). And if it's not against official rules and the terms of his contract with Quantic Gaming, then again, he did nothing wrong. Likewise, fans who showed up to that Astros-Reds game on September 21 were not owed their money back. The sponsors were not refunded ad revenue, either (as some have suggested be done with GOM). That is the risk you take as a fan when you purchase tickets, and that is the risk you take as a business when you choose to advertise. Ultimately, if the fans and/or the sponsors do have a legitimate gripe about what happened, that is to be taken up with GOM, not Naniwa. As a fan, you can hate Naniwa for whatever reasons you want, legitimate or not. When we're dealing with a player's livelihood, however, we need to have rational, adult conversations, and I'm just not seeing any of that in the community. When you calm down, take a step back and examine the situation, you should see that Naniwa is taking entirely too much grief for what was ultimately a decision made in his best interest. About the author: I am a sportswriter for ESPN (http://crashburnalley.com/), an author (http://amzn.com/1600786782), and a sports radio host. You can follow me on Twitter, @CrashburnAlley.References: The baseball statistics cited above were taken from Baseball Reference and FanGraphs. EDIT: Forgot to add FanGraphs to the references.
Not a good analogy. Firstly, as has been stated countless times already, playing a B team is not the same as what Naniwa did. A B team can actually win a game, a B team can actually be entertaining, What Naniwa did is as close to a 0% chance to win as you can get.
Secondly, and I'll give you a baseball response, that wasn't their B team. The Astros just sucked so fucking badly that the lineup you pasted was pretty much mostly guys who were splitting time cause they didn't have very many legit starters. Shuck was a callup and played regularly from that point, Schaefer was traded from the Braves and had over 300 PA throughout the season, and that's just 2 examples.
Thirdly, that game was a week before the season actually ended, so throughout that week more people played, including their starting 1B Brett Wallace (who also fucking sucked).
Back to Starcraft, yes it is partly GOM's fault for the tournament format, but Naniwa is a PROFESSIONAL gamer, who's core responsibility is as an entertainer, not to win games, because winning games is what entertains the fans who put money into the sport and thus allow him to earn a salary, sponsorships and tournament winnings. You state Naniwa's job is to win games? How does winning games matter? Think about it, what does Naniwa accomplish by winning a game of Starcraft 2? It entertains YOU, provides a service to YOU and to US as fans. So inherently, his job, as I stated earlier, is to entertain. We put money into this sport because it's entertaining. And he's trained to play for 8-9 hours per day, how exhausted was he really after playing 4 games within reasonable time intervals?
You really think the players themselves are trying to suck so that they can draft Andrew Luck? Why don't you go ask Peyton Manning how good losing feels, I'm sure he wouldn't tell you it's ok because Andrew Luck will be on the team next year.
His decision that was made, in your words, his best interest is in fact not in his best interest at all. If any other profession caught him so blatantly half-assing his work, he would be punished for it.
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On December 14 2011 00:16 FauvFauv wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 00:13 flodeskum wrote:On December 14 2011 00:01 The KY wrote:On December 13 2011 22:33 Waxangel wrote:On December 13 2011 22:28 Crais wrote:
In soccer last year Wolves fielded a weakened team on purpose vs Manchester United so that they could rest their players for a later game. Caused a shit storm, ticket refunds, fines. EPL actually has a rule that says you must field a full strength side or something tho, unlike american sports I don't remember that game at all. It's very common in football to send out your B team to rest A team players for more important games. Very very common, in fact. For example now that Man U are in the Europa League, you can be damn sure they won't be fielding the players they do against the top flight teams...and no one will say a damn word about it. Yep and nobody said a word when United rested their entire starting lineup vs Hull in order to prepare for the CL final - and that game could have saved Hull from relegation, so it could have had massive implications. This happens all the time in football. The only two examples I can remember of fines (and very small ones tbf) being handed out are the wolves vs utd and blackpool vs villa last season. But both incidents were highly controversial even though the PL has rules against this. Let's remember, there are no rules against this in SC2. Players also do this all the time in starcraft. They just don't do it as blatantly as naniwa did. which is precisely the difference between professional sports and amateur sports edit: its still an abhorrent comparison though
Absolutely.
Basically it comes down to the way he did it. If he had 4 gated or cannon rushed nobody would have given half a shit. He did it in a very blunt manner and perhaps came off a bit disrespectful. That's really all there is to it.
This whole drama is worse than the weekly reddit-pitchforkfest.
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On December 14 2011 00:23 SonOfMKP wrote:
How many of you were actually at the GOM Studio? None of us asked for our money back, and I certainly would feel bad about accepting a refund after getting to watch such amazing games followed by a great tie breaker! I'm sorry that 1 game out of the 1000's you will watch with that year GOMtv pass wasn't spectacular, but you do not deserve a refund.
Just wanted to point out that going to the studio is free, so you didn't have any money to ask back.
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People who keep making the sports analogies don't realize that these are not the same situations.
Read the OP, it explicitly states an example that completely counteracts your analogies. And to reiterate/expand on it further...
- Professional teams have been shown that they do actually throw games or at least not try as hard as they would normally. Just like what Naniwa did. And several other SC2 progamers for that matter (Stephano vs Bratok anyone?) Maybe not blatantly, but they are still not playing at 100% of their ability.
- Players that are used will STILL do their best, because for those players there ARE things on the line. For example if a pitcher makes X strikeouts, he will fulfill a part of his contract and obtain more money. If bench warmers actually play well, they have a chance of becoming the 1st string (of course if their coaches explicitly tell them not to play to their best, then they won't). However, Naniwa had absolutely nothing on the line other than pride; no extra money in the tournament, no fulfilling parts of his contract (as far as I know), etc.
For people who say "well he insulted the koreans", then that means the koreans need to chill. Obviously they won't, but from a legal, logical point of view, Naniwa didn't do anything wrong that other professional athletes have done, and that hating on Naniwa but not on these other athletes is a double standard.
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When I first finished your post, I thought that you had a fairly good grasp of the situation and of the arguments supporting Naniwa's decision.
When I reread it, I found that there was one particular piece of logic you fail to address that weakens your argument.
The fact that the Astros sent out a sub-par line-up could be due to other reasons than 'not wanting to play a game that didn't matter.' This makes the the Astro event and the Naniwa event impossible to compare because the intent behind both actions was fundamentally different. It is entirely possible that the Astros wanted their B-teamers to gain some gameplay experience, allowing the team as a whole to improve and 'make the best of a bad situation. In fact, one might argue that fielding B-teamers in a 'meaningless game' is the perfect strategic move; it allows for higher utilization of thereby underutilized players, the allowance for the team to improve and deepen in skill as a whole, the ability to showcase players that did not have a chance to play previously for fans, and altogether bring together team morale (let's end this season on a bang mentality). Therefore, I submit that the Astros sending out of a B-teamer lineup was ultimately for the team's overall benefit by taking advantage of a 'meaningless' game as a learning experience.
Only the absurd would consider Naniwa's worker rush as anywhere near the same. The intent wasn't to treat the 'meaningless' game as a learning experience, or to try and abstract any sort of benefit from it, or anything like that. The intent of Naniwa vs Nestea from Naniwa's perspective was simply to give up.
I won't repeat the ad nauseum arguments detailing how this is disrespectful towards East Asian culture, but I will say that it pains me to watch a player throw away a chance to turn a bad situation into something at least slightly beneficial. While I understand the emotional stress he was under, my major disappointment is in his easy willingness to just give up the fight rather than turning the unwinnable into something wonderful. As a few people have said, if he came into that final game with a real willingness to learn from another game, to learn from another experience, and triumphed, he wouldn't be 'Naniwa, the 0-3'd loser who gave up in the last game' but 'Naniwa, the 1-3 Toss who ended his stay at the Blizzard Cup with an amazing display of talent and beat down the arguable #1 Z player in the world to finish off 2011.'
I can't respect a player who's drive for self-improvement is broken so easily by adversity, be it bad luck, tournament structure, or whatever. Sure it's understandable, but the beauty in sports mythos are the players, the teams who become more than understandable and transcend those limits into legend.
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The job of a pro whatever, be it footballer, baseball player, SC2 player is to COMPETE, not just win. Yes I want to see my favorite teams and/or players win of course. But primarily I want to see them try their damn hardest to win and show some damn heart and passion for the game.
If you are only a fan of team or player(s) when they win, and don't watch or care about them when they are losing but at least are trying their hardest, then that's being a bandwagoner, not a true fan.
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On December 14 2011 00:30 IMPrime wrote:
Read the OP, it explicitly states an example that completely counteracts your analogies. And to reiterate/expand on it further...
The only thing the OP shows is how ignorant ESPN is about anything that isn't the Yankees or Red Sox in terms of baseball.
I will post the Houston Astros roster again. That was their lineup. They weren't saving their good guys, other than arguably giving Pence and Bourne a breather. Their lineup is actually that bad.
The example proved nothing anyway. That team played 9 innings of baseball and did what they could to win.
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On December 14 2011 00:31 Slider954 wrote:
The job of a pro whatever, be it footballer, baseball player, SC2 player is to COMPETE, not just win. Yes I want to see my favorite teams and/or players win of course. But primarily I want to see them try their damn hardest to win and show some damn heart and passion for the game.
If you are only a fan of team or player(s) when they win, and don't watch or care about them when they are losing but at least are trying their hardest, then that's being a bandwagoner, not a true fan.
I'm not sure of the relevance. Naniwa was never going to go all out trying to win and neither was Nestea. We were not deprived of that. It would not have been competition.
To your point though, I'd argue that it's possible to simply be a fan of good play. It doesn't make you a glory hound or a bandwagoner if you just like to see good players play well.
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On December 14 2011 00:33 The KY wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 00:31 Slider954 wrote:
The job of a pro whatever, be it footballer, baseball player, SC2 player is to COMPETE, not just win. Yes I want to see my favorite teams and/or players win of course. But primarily I want to see them try their damn hardest to win and show some damn heart and passion for the game.
If you are only a fan of team or player(s) when they win, and don't watch or care about them when they are losing but at least are trying their hardest, then that's being a bandwagoner, not a true fan.
I'm not sure of the relevance. Naniwa was never going to go all out trying to win and neither was Nestea. We were not deprived of that. It would not have been competition. To your point though, I'd argue that it's possible to simply be a fan of good play. It doesn't make you a glory hound or a bandwagoner if you just like to see good players play well.
Do you honestly believe that Nestea wasn't going into that match with the mindset of 'I'm gonna beat the asshat down' after all the drama that's gone down between them at MLG, even if the match was pointless. That right there is the difference between Nestea and Nani cause regardless of whether the match mattered or not, I'd be willing to bet that Nestea sure as hell wanted to win.
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EPT
