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A Rational Take on the Naniwa Situation - Page 10

Blogs > Crashburn
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CakeSauc3
Profile Joined February 2011
United States1437 Posts
December 13 2011 15:40 GMT
#181
Thank you, Crashburn, for a sensible thread :D I agree with you completely. I wish everyone would calm down and take the game for what it was... funny to watch and a simple show of emotion.
HappyChris
Profile Joined October 2011
1534 Posts
December 13 2011 15:41 GMT
#182
Great post.
nicotn
Profile Joined September 2010
Netherlands186 Posts
December 13 2011 15:42 GMT
#183
Its all about motivation, i would not want to play in a tournament anymore when i basically already lost it, whats the point in playing with nothing on the line?
VENDIZ
Profile Joined October 2010
1575 Posts
December 13 2011 15:42 GMT
#184
On December 13 2011 22:33 Waxangel wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 13 2011 22:28 Crais wrote:
In soccer last year Wolves fielded a weakened team on purpose vs Manchester United so that they could rest their players for a later game. Caused a shit storm, ticket refunds, fines.


EPL actually has a rule that says you must field a full strength side or something tho, unlike american sports


Wasn't it Blackpool, not the Wolves (both have orange jerseys)? I remember the manager of Blackpool had been in a verbal feud with the FA earlier, and threatend to play with their B-team to prove a point of some sort, which is why it caused such a stir. The incident with clubs putting unexperienced players on the field for less important games happens every week - just look at Premier League clubs' starting lineup in the FA Cup during the first rounds. They do the same in Premier League if they've got an important game in Champions League / Europe League (UEFA Cup) the same week..

.. shame people are making it their job to hate on NaNiwa, just because it's him.
SaGe fighting!!~~~~~~
Southlight
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States11767 Posts
December 13 2011 15:43 GMT
#185
On December 14 2011 00:39 Slider954 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 14 2011 00:33 The KY wrote:
On December 14 2011 00:31 Slider954 wrote:
The job of a pro whatever, be it footballer, baseball player, SC2 player is to COMPETE, not just win. Yes I want to see my favorite teams and/or players win of course. But primarily I want to see them try their damn hardest to win and show some damn heart and passion for the game.
If you are only a fan of team or player(s) when they win, and don't watch or care about them when they are losing but at least are trying their hardest, then that's being a bandwagoner, not a true fan.


I'm not sure of the relevance. Naniwa was never going to go all out trying to win and neither was Nestea. We were not deprived of that. It would not have been competition.

To your point though, I'd argue that it's possible to simply be a fan of good play. It doesn't make you a glory hound or a bandwagoner if you just like to see good players play well.


Do you honestly believe that Nestea wasn't going into that match with the mindset of 'I'm gonna beat the asshat down' after all the drama that's gone down between them at MLG, even if the match was pointless. That right there is the difference between Nestea and Nani cause regardless of whether the match mattered or not, I'd be willing to bet that Nestea sure as hell wanted to win.


There was no way Nestea was going to be whipping out any real builds though. Why would he? There's nothing on the line and only a build to lose by doing it.
oraoraoraoraoraoraoraora
Saechiis
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Netherlands4989 Posts
December 13 2011 15:45 GMT
#186
On December 13 2011 23:50 Arcane86 wrote:
Does anyone remember how pissed off everyone was at Sjow v. White-Ra at Dreamhack Winter 2011? It was group stages and both players had been sealed out of advancement. In fact, it took place right after Sjow had been locked out in an extremely tense series. It was also late. The tournament had been running for >14hours, and Day[9] was going delirious on the other stream casting the most boring game of all time (1.5hr Happy v. ToD). Even Total Biscuit had started complaining about wanting to go to bed rather than cast Sjow v. White-Ra.

Sjow, likely pissed off about having to play a series that didn't matter just after losing his most important series of the night, executed a series of build that made no sense. This could have been a glorious TvP. But it was not. It was abundantly clear that neither player was playing to win. There was no glory. There was no honor at stake. There was no inspiring micro or beautiful positioning. Just two players who clearly had no more F***s to give.

Remember how outraged people were about this?

Oh right, they weren't.

Those were players that had been playing for 12 hours straight, to the point where even the casters were too exhausted to care anymore. How is that even remotely comparable to Naniwa who played 3 games and then didn't bother to play the 4th? And even then, SjoW used builds to take a quick win and White-Ra defended them despite there not being any reason to, their series went 2-3 with relatively long games despite the short term strategies being used. No-one could complain because they both still tried to win despite their exhaustion and lost position.
I think esports is pretty nice.
The KY
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United Kingdom6252 Posts
December 13 2011 15:45 GMT
#187
On December 14 2011 00:43 Southlight wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 14 2011 00:39 Slider954 wrote:
On December 14 2011 00:33 The KY wrote:
On December 14 2011 00:31 Slider954 wrote:
The job of a pro whatever, be it footballer, baseball player, SC2 player is to COMPETE, not just win. Yes I want to see my favorite teams and/or players win of course. But primarily I want to see them try their damn hardest to win and show some damn heart and passion for the game.
If you are only a fan of team or player(s) when they win, and don't watch or care about them when they are losing but at least are trying their hardest, then that's being a bandwagoner, not a true fan.


I'm not sure of the relevance. Naniwa was never going to go all out trying to win and neither was Nestea. We were not deprived of that. It would not have been competition.

To your point though, I'd argue that it's possible to simply be a fan of good play. It doesn't make you a glory hound or a bandwagoner if you just like to see good players play well.


Do you honestly believe that Nestea wasn't going into that match with the mindset of 'I'm gonna beat the asshat down' after all the drama that's gone down between them at MLG, even if the match was pointless. That right there is the difference between Nestea and Nani cause regardless of whether the match mattered or not, I'd be willing to bet that Nestea sure as hell wanted to win.


There was no way Nestea was going to be whipping out any real builds though. Why would he? There's nothing on the line and only a build to lose by doing it.


People over exaggerated the Nani v Nestea drama...I'm pretty sure Nestea doesn't hate Naniwa so much that he wants to crush him on stage for the sake of it.

And as Southlight correctly points out, as has Liquid'Tyler, neither player would be playing their best or using their best builds.

So yes I absolutely believe that Nestea's mindset going into that game wasn't that of determination to win.
ntrz
Profile Joined January 2011
United States57 Posts
December 13 2011 15:49 GMT
#188
These are also the same astros that in the last series of the season blasted the now world series winning cardinals, attempting to dash their chances of getting into the playoffs. I can understand your reasoning here because baseball is such a long season and being 49-96 would definitely make you not "try as hard." and I guess you could argue that the astros "had something to play for" in that last series. What I think is irking everyone is that sc2 pro's are often supported by teams in order to have a living. By simply throwing the game away and not attempting to make a decent showing you're saying that you don't care about the people that support you and you're gonna do what you want. This attitude is very arrogant, and it's really no wonder why a lot of fans, and koreans got upset at it. In my opinion, its the same reason people hate idra. Idra is a good player, extremely solid actually, but the arrogance that he shows when he loses or wins a game makes people dislike him. I think most people who follow sc2 really enjoy the game, and on some level wish they could have what people like nani/idra have, and the way that they treat their talent and ability makes these envious people really irritated. (could be something completely different in the eyes of a korean, don't have a lot of experience interacting with them.)

I do agree with you that the blizzard cup format is not player-minded. It's fan-base minded. Who in the world that follows sc2 wouldn't want to see a rematch of nestea/naniwa? instead we got a bronze game with top tier names.
Chinchillin
Profile Joined February 2011
United States259 Posts
December 13 2011 15:54 GMT
#189
Notice in football teams that are 0-14 keep playing? Naniwa's a quitter that's all that comes down to it, and what little amount of respect any Korean had for him before is now gone. Code S is surely not going to be fun for him.
Leenocktopus! InNoVation!
Haydin
Profile Joined December 2010
United States1481 Posts
December 13 2011 15:54 GMT
#190
Thank you for making this post. A wonderful, reasonable anti-drama post.
aka ilovesharkpeople
Chinchillin
Profile Joined February 2011
United States259 Posts
December 13 2011 15:55 GMT
#191
Not only that, people paid money to see these games. It's just fucking rude and wouldn't do anything negatively to him to play the game out.
Leenocktopus! InNoVation!
Abort Retry Fail
Profile Joined December 2011
2636 Posts
December 13 2011 15:55 GMT
#192
Its more about ethics than pragmatics.
As a progamer, someone paid to be seen by fans and whose sponsors rely on such dynamics, Players owe the fans a minimun amount of effort and respect. To put it simply, can you imagine WhiteRa doing it? No, right? That's why WhiteRa is loved all over the world.
BSOD
ZUR1CH
Profile Joined February 2011
United States108 Posts
December 13 2011 15:56 GMT
#193
I honestly don't see any problem with what Naniwa did. The game was pointless. Therefore, who the fark cares?
Southlight
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States11767 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-13 16:00:03
December 13 2011 15:58 GMT
#194
On December 14 2011 00:54 Chinchillin wrote:
Notice in football teams that are 0-14 keep playing? Naniwa's a quitter that's all that comes down to it, and what little amount of respect any Korean had for him before is now gone. Code S is surely not going to be fun for him.


Football teams that are 0-14 have jobs at stake. Literally. The majority of players are 0-14 teams will simply be out of a job by the next year, unless they show stuff. Dan Orlovsky survived the 0-16 Lions debacle because he showed some semblance of spark. Most of the other players are pretty much gone. Most don't expect the coaching staff to survive the 0-16 Colts, and I'd imagine a good chunk of the roster might be out of jobs too. They keep playing because unless they show potential, they're boned.


On December 14 2011 00:55 Chinchillin wrote:
Not only that, people paid money to see these games. It's just fucking rude and wouldn't do anything negatively to him to play the game out.


People paid money to see good games, and got three games of Naniwa playing his heart out. The crux of this argument is that people pay to watch pre-season exhibition games, and are horrified when they find the game is a sham. Because that's what the last game was.
oraoraoraoraoraoraoraora
Proflo
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States148 Posts
December 13 2011 16:03 GMT
#195
I agree with this post, dislike baseball
Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.
Siaubunas
Profile Joined April 2011
Lithuania12 Posts
December 13 2011 16:10 GMT
#196
Naniwa showed really good games, even then cheesed. And i think his last game was even better.
Flaccid
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
8841 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-13 16:11:41
December 13 2011 16:11 GMT
#197
On December 13 2011 22:19 Itsmedudeman wrote:
So let's say a team goes 0-X or just has a bad record. They're gonna play the last game of the season with 0 chance to make it in the playoffs. What do they do? They shit on everyone around them by fucking around. Let's say it was football. The other team's running back gets through and no one chases after him, no one does anything to even try to save a bit of their dignity and give fans who payed and stayed loyal a show or at least some sign of trying. Who would defend that as a fan?


That doesn't happen. Given that teams cannot simply concede a meaningless game or rush it to completion in the framework of pro-sports (games must last x amount of minutes, etc.), they simply find other means to accomplish the desired end.

Here are some common scenarios:

  • A losing team will field a sub-par lineup in a game they don't care to win. That means many back-up or reserve/farm-team players that won't have much of a chance against a real team. I'll use hockey as an example - a team without anything to play for besides draft position will simply start a lot of AHLers and a very green goaltender. Its win-win for the team. If they lose, they gain draft position. And regardless of the outcome, they gain valuable pro experience for their future players. And these guys will try to win - they just aren't in much of a position to do so. They want to prove themselves and make the most of the given opportunity, hence why the scenario you talked about in your post will not happen.
  • A winning team with a guaranteed spot in the standings will rest their starting lineup against a weaker team in order to preserve their health for the upcoming important playoff matches. What is rough about this is that these games will often carry heavy playoff implications for those on the outside looking in. It's not unheard of for one team to make the playoffs and another to miss out based on who gets to play the league-leaders at the end of the season and take what are, to a more than reasonable degree, free wins.


Both those scenarios happen every year in every sport. It's transparent as hell but no one complains. No one complains because it's common practice. And like I said, these are often games that matter. These games will determine the fate of some poor team's playoff existence - a team that's forced to helplessly watch as a bunch of minor-league scrubs getting whipped by a crappier team costs them their playoff spot. Playoff spots not only mean everything to the fans, but also millions and millions of dollars revenue to the teams.

So how is what Naniwa did that bad? It didn't affect anyone else in the tournament, it didn't artificially stall or boost the career of any other pro player. He did what athletes and teams have done for ages but in the framework provided by the game in which he competes. People are overreacting - especially the Koreans who have such a proud history of throwing games for their personal benefit in WCG over the years. And those games actually had real implications. What a load.

Anyways, I agree completely with the OP.
I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy
flodeskum
Profile Joined September 2010
Iceland1267 Posts
December 13 2011 16:23 GMT
#198
On December 14 2011 00:42 VENDIZ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 13 2011 22:33 Waxangel wrote:
On December 13 2011 22:28 Crais wrote:
In soccer last year Wolves fielded a weakened team on purpose vs Manchester United so that they could rest their players for a later game. Caused a shit storm, ticket refunds, fines.


EPL actually has a rule that says you must field a full strength side or something tho, unlike american sports


Wasn't it Blackpool, not the Wolves (both have orange jerseys)? I remember the manager of Blackpool had been in a verbal feud with the FA earlier, and threatend to play with their B-team to prove a point of some sort, which is why it caused such a stir. The incident with clubs putting unexperienced players on the field for less important games happens every week - just look at Premier League clubs' starting lineup in the FA Cup during the first rounds. They do the same in Premier League if they've got an important game in Champions League / Europe League (UEFA Cup) the same week..

.. shame people are making it their job to hate on NaNiwa, just because it's him.

Both. It happened to Blackpool last season. The wolves incident was during 2009/10 IIRC.

And in both cases the LMA and most managers and pundits were quite outspoken about how stupid it was to hand out fines for something like this.
IdrA: " my fans are kinda retarded"
Squeegy
Profile Joined October 2009
Finland1166 Posts
December 13 2011 16:25 GMT
#199
Playing your B-team is not comparable to throwing the game. It is comparable to playing B-strategies. Morever, the rivalry aspect is what important, as it was a really shitty thing to do to Nestea who specifically had said that he wants to beat Naniwa. And Naniwa had also taunted him. People are of course overreacting with their demands to remove him from GSL but it seems to me like people are not able to distinguish between different levels of X. There are more options than playing your best strategies and throwing the game. You can play a standard strategy for example and thus not reveal anything you don't want to but still try to win. There are also more options than accepting what Naniwa did and demanding a ban. Namely that what he did was douchebaggery. And it is beyond me how anyone can deny that. Sure he had his reasons but people have their reasons to also not like him. I suppose it is his call, but if that's the game he wants to play, then he better be prepared for the reaction.
Stan: Dude, dolphins are intelligent and friendly. Cartman: Intelligent and friendly on rye bread with some mayonnaise.
Vansetsu
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States1454 Posts
December 13 2011 16:26 GMT
#200
There are some pretty big flaws in your argument, but there are also some important (and also sad) points as well.

- This analogy doesn't fit, you are comparing apple to oranges. A worker rush in sc2, without lings, without marines, without cannons, bunker, zealots, ect - does not have an equivalent in baseball, as it is impossible to viably win with pure workers. Fielding players for the sake of fielding players even has merit. Doing something that has absolutely no chance of working ever does not.

The counter argument to this is that yes, a player can make the most pathetic mistakes possible and somehow loose to this type of attack, however, it can't be considered a real possibility rationally.

- You can't use the reasoning of "resting players for more important games" Naniwa has nothing important coming up, let alone anything so important he can't play 1 bo1 in some sort of competitive fashion.

- Your argument about rules for players is the only valid thing here. Sadly, there are many immature high level players. Even with nothing to gain from a performance like this (other than drama publicity), it can still happen. GOM and other tournaments should indeed make a ruling with consequences should any player do a worker rush, as it is basically the only out-right un-winnable strategy in SC2.

It should also be said that you are partially right about his team. I doubt there is anything written in Nani's contract that states he needs to at least put on a show, even though it is obviously implied that they would want him to. Stipulations like this need to be made in player contracts, less teams want this type of play to be represented of them

The part about fans though is where this is wrong. Their are no contracts and no rules with fans. Anyone who thought this was a big "fuck you" as a fan or supporter is completely justified to feel that way. And they would be justified even if they didn't have a legitimate reason, because they are fans...

In short, for me it's a sad realization that we actually need to have rules to prevent the most stupid possible things to happen.
Only by overcoming many obstacles does a river become - デイヴィ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ド
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