EPTA Rational Take on the Naniwa Situation - Page 10
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CakeSauc3
United States1437 Posts
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HappyChris
1534 Posts
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nicotn
Netherlands186 Posts
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VENDIZ
1575 Posts
On December 13 2011 22:33 Waxangel wrote: EPL actually has a rule that says you must field a full strength side or something tho, unlike american sports Wasn't it Blackpool, not the Wolves (both have orange jerseys)? I remember the manager of Blackpool had been in a verbal feud with the FA earlier, and threatend to play with their B-team to prove a point of some sort, which is why it caused such a stir. The incident with clubs putting unexperienced players on the field for less important games happens every week - just look at Premier League clubs' starting lineup in the FA Cup during the first rounds. They do the same in Premier League if they've got an important game in Champions League / Europe League (UEFA Cup) the same week.. .. shame people are making it their job to hate on NaNiwa, just because it's him. | ||
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Southlight
United States11767 Posts
On December 14 2011 00:39 Slider954 wrote: Do you honestly believe that Nestea wasn't going into that match with the mindset of 'I'm gonna beat the asshat down' after all the drama that's gone down between them at MLG, even if the match was pointless. That right there is the difference between Nestea and Nani cause regardless of whether the match mattered or not, I'd be willing to bet that Nestea sure as hell wanted to win. There was no way Nestea was going to be whipping out any real builds though. Why would he? There's nothing on the line and only a build to lose by doing it. | ||
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Saechiis
Netherlands4989 Posts
On December 13 2011 23:50 Arcane86 wrote: Does anyone remember how pissed off everyone was at Sjow v. White-Ra at Dreamhack Winter 2011? It was group stages and both players had been sealed out of advancement. In fact, it took place right after Sjow had been locked out in an extremely tense series. It was also late. The tournament had been running for >14hours, and Day[9] was going delirious on the other stream casting the most boring game of all time (1.5hr Happy v. ToD). Even Total Biscuit had started complaining about wanting to go to bed rather than cast Sjow v. White-Ra. Sjow, likely pissed off about having to play a series that didn't matter just after losing his most important series of the night, executed a series of build that made no sense. This could have been a glorious TvP. But it was not. It was abundantly clear that neither player was playing to win. There was no glory. There was no honor at stake. There was no inspiring micro or beautiful positioning. Just two players who clearly had no more F***s to give. Remember how outraged people were about this? Oh right, they weren't. Those were players that had been playing for 12 hours straight, to the point where even the casters were too exhausted to care anymore. How is that even remotely comparable to Naniwa who played 3 games and then didn't bother to play the 4th? And even then, SjoW used builds to take a quick win and White-Ra defended them despite there not being any reason to, their series went 2-3 with relatively long games despite the short term strategies being used. No-one could complain because they both still tried to win despite their exhaustion and lost position. | ||
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The KY
United Kingdom6252 Posts
On December 14 2011 00:43 Southlight wrote: There was no way Nestea was going to be whipping out any real builds though. Why would he? There's nothing on the line and only a build to lose by doing it. People over exaggerated the Nani v Nestea drama...I'm pretty sure Nestea doesn't hate Naniwa so much that he wants to crush him on stage for the sake of it. And as Southlight correctly points out, as has Liquid'Tyler, neither player would be playing their best or using their best builds. So yes I absolutely believe that Nestea's mindset going into that game wasn't that of determination to win. | ||
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ntrz
United States57 Posts
I do agree with you that the blizzard cup format is not player-minded. It's fan-base minded. Who in the world that follows sc2 wouldn't want to see a rematch of nestea/naniwa? instead we got a bronze game with top tier names. | ||
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Chinchillin
United States259 Posts
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Haydin
United States1481 Posts
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Chinchillin
United States259 Posts
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Abort Retry Fail
2636 Posts
As a progamer, someone paid to be seen by fans and whose sponsors rely on such dynamics, Players owe the fans a minimun amount of effort and respect. To put it simply, can you imagine WhiteRa doing it? No, right? That's why WhiteRa is loved all over the world. | ||
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ZUR1CH
United States108 Posts
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Southlight
United States11767 Posts
On December 14 2011 00:54 Chinchillin wrote: Notice in football teams that are 0-14 keep playing? Naniwa's a quitter that's all that comes down to it, and what little amount of respect any Korean had for him before is now gone. Code S is surely not going to be fun for him. Football teams that are 0-14 have jobs at stake. Literally. The majority of players are 0-14 teams will simply be out of a job by the next year, unless they show stuff. Dan Orlovsky survived the 0-16 Lions debacle because he showed some semblance of spark. Most of the other players are pretty much gone. Most don't expect the coaching staff to survive the 0-16 Colts, and I'd imagine a good chunk of the roster might be out of jobs too. They keep playing because unless they show potential, they're boned. On December 14 2011 00:55 Chinchillin wrote: Not only that, people paid money to see these games. It's just fucking rude and wouldn't do anything negatively to him to play the game out. People paid money to see good games, and got three games of Naniwa playing his heart out. The crux of this argument is that people pay to watch pre-season exhibition games, and are horrified when they find the game is a sham. Because that's what the last game was. | ||
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Proflo
United States148 Posts
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Siaubunas
Lithuania12 Posts
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Flaccid
8835 Posts
On December 13 2011 22:19 Itsmedudeman wrote: So let's say a team goes 0-X or just has a bad record. They're gonna play the last game of the season with 0 chance to make it in the playoffs. What do they do? They shit on everyone around them by fucking around. Let's say it was football. The other team's running back gets through and no one chases after him, no one does anything to even try to save a bit of their dignity and give fans who payed and stayed loyal a show or at least some sign of trying. Who would defend that as a fan? That doesn't happen. Given that teams cannot simply concede a meaningless game or rush it to completion in the framework of pro-sports (games must last x amount of minutes, etc.), they simply find other means to accomplish the desired end. Here are some common scenarios:
Both those scenarios happen every year in every sport. It's transparent as hell but no one complains. No one complains because it's common practice. And like I said, these are often games that matter. These games will determine the fate of some poor team's playoff existence - a team that's forced to helplessly watch as a bunch of minor-league scrubs getting whipped by a crappier team costs them their playoff spot. Playoff spots not only mean everything to the fans, but also millions and millions of dollars revenue to the teams. So how is what Naniwa did that bad? It didn't affect anyone else in the tournament, it didn't artificially stall or boost the career of any other pro player. He did what athletes and teams have done for ages but in the framework provided by the game in which he competes. People are overreacting - especially the Koreans who have such a proud history of throwing games for their personal benefit in WCG over the years. And those games actually had real implications. What a load. Anyways, I agree completely with the OP. | ||
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flodeskum
Iceland1267 Posts
On December 14 2011 00:42 VENDIZ wrote: Wasn't it Blackpool, not the Wolves (both have orange jerseys)? I remember the manager of Blackpool had been in a verbal feud with the FA earlier, and threatend to play with their B-team to prove a point of some sort, which is why it caused such a stir. The incident with clubs putting unexperienced players on the field for less important games happens every week - just look at Premier League clubs' starting lineup in the FA Cup during the first rounds. They do the same in Premier League if they've got an important game in Champions League / Europe League (UEFA Cup) the same week.. .. shame people are making it their job to hate on NaNiwa, just because it's him. Both. It happened to Blackpool last season. The wolves incident was during 2009/10 IIRC. And in both cases the LMA and most managers and pundits were quite outspoken about how stupid it was to hand out fines for something like this. | ||
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Squeegy
Finland1166 Posts
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Vansetsu
United States1454 Posts
- This analogy doesn't fit, you are comparing apple to oranges. A worker rush in sc2, without lings, without marines, without cannons, bunker, zealots, ect - does not have an equivalent in baseball, as it is impossible to viably win with pure workers. Fielding players for the sake of fielding players even has merit. Doing something that has absolutely no chance of working ever does not. The counter argument to this is that yes, a player can make the most pathetic mistakes possible and somehow loose to this type of attack, however, it can't be considered a real possibility rationally. - You can't use the reasoning of "resting players for more important games" Naniwa has nothing important coming up, let alone anything so important he can't play 1 bo1 in some sort of competitive fashion. - Your argument about rules for players is the only valid thing here. Sadly, there are many immature high level players. Even with nothing to gain from a performance like this (other than drama publicity), it can still happen. GOM and other tournaments should indeed make a ruling with consequences should any player do a worker rush, as it is basically the only out-right un-winnable strategy in SC2. It should also be said that you are partially right about his team. I doubt there is anything written in Nani's contract that states he needs to at least put on a show, even though it is obviously implied that they would want him to. Stipulations like this need to be made in player contracts, less teams want this type of play to be represented of them The part about fans though is where this is wrong. Their are no contracts and no rules with fans. Anyone who thought this was a big "fuck you" as a fan or supporter is completely justified to feel that way. And they would be justified even if they didn't have a legitimate reason, because they are fans... In short, for me it's a sad realization that we actually need to have rules to prevent the most stupid possible things to happen. | ||
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