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On December 14 2011 10:28 quickclickz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 22:33 imMUTAble787 wrote:
I really don't see any validity to the comparison you chose at all. Naniwa punted a game in an invitational tournament that was supposed to showcase the top talent of SC2 from the year. It was cowardly and childish at best.
It's even borderline hypocritical to see someone who constantly says they care about nothing other than winning to purposely lose a game like that. He cheesed.. he punted? Punting would've been sending his probes over to nestea and leaving the booth while the probes were going there. If his hands were still on the mouse and the keyboard then you don't have that as an argument. Sorry I don't know when people chose what cheese was acceptable or not but that seems to be all the talk I've been hearing.
He sent his probes there, and took his hands off the keyboard according to the casters. So... does this mean we have an argument?
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On December 14 2011 09:09 Milkis wrote:
3) For someone who can't read you sure talk a lot about consequences. Learn to read before you make any more stupid comments.
Thanks.
I'm so glad you ran your own image into the ground. Plain rude and dismissive behaviour is not something the community needs from one of it's pillars. Don't assume people didn't read you're post. A lot of us did, and didn't like it.
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On December 14 2011 11:43 meetle wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 09:09 Milkis wrote:
3) For someone who can't read you sure talk a lot about consequences. Learn to read before you make any more stupid comments.
Thanks.
I'm so glad you ran your own image into the ground. Plain rude and dismissive behaviour is not something the community needs from one of it's pillars. Don't assume people didn't read you're post. A lot of us did, and didn't like it.
WTF.... The first two people to attack Milkis in this post were criticizing him for siding with the Koreans, which, if you READ his post, he did not do, hence his following posts. And now people are attacking him for something that happened a couple months ago and has no bearing now. Interesting.
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Well written article. It is sad that such a loving community has turned a fierce eye to Naniwa. I agree it was unsportsmanlike to cheese in such an effortless way, essentially throwing the game. That doesn't mean that I have lost any respect for Naniwa. The guy is still one of the most powerful competitors in the Starcraft 2 scene and he still does amazing things that 99.9% of us could never achieve. The guy has given us some of the most amazing performances in past games and tournaments to date and been a constant figure head in one of our favorite past-times. I hope the community can come to their senses and realize that Naniwa does not deserve the obscene amount of flak he is receiving.
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The baseball equvilent of probe rushing would be underhand pitching and batting with the opposite handedness technically still in the game but NO resonible chance of winning. Playing a "b" team would be more like if did some experimental build, less chance of winning than a "normal" game, but get practice and get to see how well a new strategy works.
That being said, all the BM players: Idra, naniwa, or anyone else, are hurting SC2's community and public image.
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On December 13 2011 22:56 reapsen wrote:
Hey,
i have no clue about baseball (because i come from europe), but in team sports, matches that doesn`t really matter occur all the time. In almost every groupstage or qualifier tournament in any football-tournament (and by football, of course i mean soccer), whether it is a club-tournament like the UEFA Champions League or nationality tournament like the FIFA World Cup qualifiers. But rarely ever will you see such a game beeing thrown away by either one of the participating teams.
Of course, its absolutely common for those matches to be played with what you can call a "b-lineup", e.g. players that are normally sitting on the bench.
But here comes my point: You cannot compare those kind of matches with what naniwa has done today.
- In every football match, as well as in other physical sport, there is always the risk of injuries. So many coaches put that risk into account, when they put their A-Lineup on the bench.
- Its a teamsport! You have group-dynamics in there. Players that rarely play will get frustrated and so on. Another reason for letting them play in matches that "doenst matter".
My point is, that a physical teamsport (like baseball) cannot be compared with a 1v1 mind-sport (like sc2).
The question is: What would have Naniwa discouraged from playing a "regular" game, e.g. trying his best to win it.
Risk of injury? No. Giving other players a chance? No. Group-Dynamics? No. Waste of his time? Okay, sure. Maybe 30minutes of his lifetime would have been wasted.
But whats on the upside?!
1. There are people out there who actually like this guy. Maybe they even payed for the HD-Pass only to watch him play. He could have entertained those guys.
2. He is on the television. The longer his face is up there and he puts up a good show, the more his reputation will rise. What this means for his team and sponsors is obvious.
3. Sportsmanship. Its just the basic principle of going into any competetive match with an adversary. You give your best, no matter what. Its called respect.
The talk about proberushing beeing a "valid strategy" with non-zero chances of winnig is ridiculous, by the way. I think you missjudged the situation.
He was just selfish in this moment. He was pissed because of his previous games and did not think a second of his obligations to other people. This is what you call unprofessionalism.
If he wanted a fast game - fine. Just do the best 4gate you can. If you lose, whatever. Everybody will be happy. You gave it a shot with a legitimate all-in tactic and it didn't work, no biggie. If you win, even better! It would have cost him 8 more minutes of lifetime, but all this shitstorm would have been avoided EASILY!
rational post within a "rational thread", well played
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On December 13 2011 23:27 Crashburn wrote:
If strategy_winrate =< 0
then strategy = invalid
If strategy_winrate > 0
then strategy = valid
Unless you can prove that strategy_winrate (in this case, worker-rushing) is zero, you can't really fall on the "this strategy was designed to lose" argument. Obviously, this taking an already inane debate to another extreme, but really, that argument needs to die. If you continue to go with it, then you must logically set an arbitrary threshold at some point. Is it strategy_winrate = 0.1%? Why not 0.2%? Or 0.01%? If you can't explain that, then you have no business making the argument.
Obviously, GOM can set their rules (which, as far as I know, are presently nonexistent) however they want, just as baseball has a logical inconsistency in banning amphetamines, but not energy drinks. I wouldn't have a problem with that.
This post shows the ignorance. What Naniwa did was not worker rushing. Worker rushing involves microing your workers once you arrive in the enemy base. Sending your workers into an enemy base that has more workers and trying to kill them without microing has a 0% chance of success at the professional level. I would say 0% chance of success ever but someone in the bottom of bronze league likely died to it once.
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On December 14 2011 11:57 Hoban wrote:
Well written article. It is sad that such a loving community has turned a fierce eye to Ryan Braun. I agree it was unsportsmanlike to cheat in such an effortless way, essentially screwing the game. That doesn't mean that I have lost any respect for Ryan Braun. The guy is still one of the most powerful competitors in baseball and he still does amazing things that 99.9% of us could never achieve. The guy has given us some of the most amazing performances in past games and series to date and been a constant figure head in one of our favorite past-times. I hope the community can come to their senses and realize that Ryan Braun does not deserve the obscene amount of flak he is receiving.
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On December 14 2011 11:52 SarsFlu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 11:43 meetle wrote:On December 14 2011 09:09 Milkis wrote:
3) For someone who can't read you sure talk a lot about consequences. Learn to read before you make any more stupid comments.
Thanks.
I'm so glad you ran your own image into the ground. Plain rude and dismissive behaviour is not something the community needs from one of it's pillars. Don't assume people didn't read you're post. A lot of us did, and didn't like it. WTF.... The first two people to attack Milkis in this post were criticizing him for siding with the Koreans, which, if you READ his post, he did not do, hence his following posts. And now people are attacking him for something that happened a couple months ago and has no bearing now. Interesting.
I'm not attacking Milkis for the NaNi issue, i'm criticising the way he behave's on these forums.
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Dont understand all the hate he gets.
Like what OP said, its meaningless for him to play the game.
Like what happens in MLG, there tend to be some players who leave early, or just dont play their game, since its meaning.
Something that happened recently, is a football match between Arsenal and Olympiakos. Arsenal qualified for the next stages of UCL and fielded a B team.
IMO, such games shouldnt even take place and broadcasted(at the event).
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Discussing rationality makes no sense. What he did was irrational in any reasonable understanding of the word, but that is beside the point. Question is did he do something wrong, immoral ? The answer might be yes, but only in very indirect and problematic sense as if we use such strict moral judgement everyone who is criticizing Naniwa did something similarly immoral in last few months. So in more reasonable sense his action was amoral, morally neutral as the only person that was actually in any objective manner "hurt" by his actions was Naniwa himself.
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Two points from me:
1. Nobody forces any of us to watch these matches in the first place.
2. I neither know much about nor do I particularly sympathize with Naniwa. However, he is a professional player whose decisions as well as their consequences are entirely his own.
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The argument in the original post is full of holes that are readily apparent to anyone who pays attention to baseball in the slightest.
1. MLB teams play 162 games in a season; players get days off, even on teams in the middle of a playoff race.
2. There are ulterior motives for playing rookies and other "unproven" players in hopes that you glean some information on how they can help your team the next season.
3. I guarantee every one of those players made a valiant effort toward doing their best performance.
4. Your specific example is terrible:
Jordan Schafer, CF (118 PA) - Former top prospect, trying to get him reps at the MLB level. Their everyday CF (Michael Borne) was traded before this game.
J.B. Shuck, RF (92 PA) - Will likely be on their MLB roster next season, trying to see what they have.
J.D. Martinez, LF (226 PA) - Likely their starting LF in 2012. He's a great defender and one of the top Astros prospects.
Carlos Lee, 1B (653 PA) - Everyday player.
Matt Downs, 2B (222 PA) - As good or better than any other 2B on their roster.
Chris Johnson, 3B (405 PA) - Terrible player, but started most of their games at 3B.
Clint Barmes, SS (495 PA) - Their best SS.
J.R. Towles, C (165 PA) - All their catchers are terrible.
So... does that look like throwing a game? Or is that just standard practice of trying to balance your teams performance now versus seeing what you have and building for the future?
Naniwa threw a game. That's it. And this Astros game example is nothing like throwing a game.
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Playing a B team is completely different than throwing a game, just like substituting the core players in a basketball game out of play when the scores aren't very close. It reduces the chance of injuring key players and gives the B team a chance to improve their skills and gain exp. in live tournaments.
I'm not even sure the analogy is parallel here, the coach makes the decision in your example, which has nothing to do with player behavior. How is this a rational comparison to the Naniwa situation????
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Finally someone who actually puts this in perspective!
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EPT
