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On December 14 2011 04:35 XIJABERWALKIX wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 04:29 dolvlo wrote:On December 14 2011 04:22 XIJABERWALKIX wrote:
There is absolutely no downside to playing out that match. Of course there is a downside to playing the match. Off the top of my head I can come up with two: 1. Playing the match would force the fans to wait an extra 20-40 minutes before getting to see the players who are making it further in the tournament. Do you have any idea how many tournaments lose viewers when they put the 3rd-4th place matches before the final matches? There's a reason why MLG's format has gotten them the most number of concurrent viewers of any league. 2. Naniwa playing the game for real would give Nestea the ability to get a better feel for Naniwa's playstyle, as well as give other good zergs an idea of Naniwa's strategy against good zerg players. I'm not saying use your best strategy vs Nestea or pull out something you've been saving up, I'm just saying make it look respectable. Even a 4 gate would really suffice.
Eh, that seems lame. I'd rather see an actual game that matters than a deceptive 4gate. GOM should have just cancelled the match, since there was no incentive for the players.
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On December 14 2011 04:22 XIJABERWALKIX wrote:
Naniwa has shown time and time again that the only thing he cares about is winning and making money. He cares nothing of furthering the sport. His argument is pathetic. You should never visibly "stop-trying" in a professional/televised match. However to be fair, he is correct. If he would have 4 gated, nothing would have been said. So what if he only cares about making money? Are you going to go rant to the shop clerk that he's not motivated enough to do his job for free? Naniwa plays SC2 FOR A LIVING, not for your entertainment. I admit that furthering esports is a noble cause, but so is helping homeless people and yet you don't expect any of the progamers to do that, do you?
Naniwa doesn't get that doing the things he does (probe rushing, bad interviews, etc) actually hurt the credibility of e-sports. Other professional sports teams play time and time again in "pointless" games, however they play them and they play them with a decent amount of effort. Sure they might try harder if things were on the line, but they still want to win. It's about pride. Possibly even more than that, it's about credibility and heart of the game. No one wants to put money into a league where everyone except the top teams/players start quitting because they have little to no chance of advancing. If that were the case, every single sporting format would be something like elimination style tournaments, there would be no "seasons." Leagues and especially teams need to start coaching players on proper professional etiquette if eSports is to continue to grow at the rate it has been. There are no excuses for things like that anymore. We're so close to the big leagues, it would be a shame for something like that to hold us back.
This has nothing to do with credibility of esports. It does however have everything to do with tournament formats. Why do we have matches that have nothing on the line? I'm thinking whoever came up with this tournament format was either 1) ignorant to the fact that this could happen. or 2) thinking that these "extra" matches could bring more views or whatever. There are plenty of ways to make matches of low importance still matter. You can look at any real sports league and see how it is done there.
To even play the other side, say Naniwa does really only care about winning money. It wouldn't even be in his best interest to play the way he did. For starters, its not like he's worried about wasting time as he'll probably watch some or the rest of the tournament (vs. going straight to practice or another event). Second, to play in that way is an obvious deterrent from endorsement/sponsorship prospects. No one would want to sponsor a player who doesn't play out their matches, even meaningless ones. While yes, maybe 1/8 (random percentage) of viewers would watch a game that doesn't matter, you are still getting viewers and sponsors are still getting air time. To add to that, I'm sure a lot of people tuned in anyways as he was playing Nestea. If he plays an extraordinary game and say crushes Nestea, people will still talk about that match. It will improve his public perception of how good of a player he is. While pros know that the match really doesn't mean anything, in the public eye a win over Nestea is a win over Nestea. When people talk about Nani, people talk about his sponsors and that's the kind of thing sponsors are attracted to. If he plays a close set, pulls out unorthodox builds, etc. people will STILL talk about it. Naniwa has to realize that a player of his caliber will get media no matter what. So to limit his time on air ACTUALLY HURTS his sponsorship prospects and ACTUALLY HURTS his chances of getting more money.
So lets say that Naniwa had actually played normally in that game. A generic macro game, which had NOTHING on the line, versus the situation we're in now. Have a look at google trends in a few days and you will see that his probe rush got him FAR more attenttion than whatever normal game he could've played against nestea.
There is absolutely no downside to playing out that match. Other players may be able to get away with throwing games or not trying, but when the public eye is on you so finely, you have to know what's best for your career. Sure you're angry, sure you're upset, but suck it up and realize that you're part of something bigger than yourself.
No downside? http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/NaNiwa#Nestea If i was in Naniwa's shoes i'd have not played a proper game either. Nestea still had incentive to "show him", while Naniwa had nothing to win there. Rather do something stupid than give Nestea the confidence boost that might benefit him in future engagements.
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You are wrong about NaNiwa's job.
His job is to represent his team and sponsors. The sponsors pay his salary, expenses etc. etc. They don't want him to just win. They want him to represent their brand. He is an advertising tool. In most instances, this equates to winning games and getting recognition. But it is by no means absolute.
I do agree with everything else you said though. And you point still stands.
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5003 Posts
[QUOTE]On December 14 2011 04:06 g35nole wrote:
[QUOTE]On December 14 2011 02:49 Milkis wrote:
You're far from rational. A rational action would mean that you understand the consequences of the actions and you have thought it through and made your decision.
Yea, that would be like if someone wrote a blog bashing the SC2 community, saying BW was the only real esport and was then shocked and upset when said SC2 community fires back at him....oh wait.
[/QUOTE]
Irrational would be expecting people to actually read what was written before taking shots about it. Or expecting people to read the next sentence even.
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[QUOTE]On December 14 2011 06:46 Milkis wrote:
[QUOTE]On December 14 2011 04:06 g35nole wrote:
[QUOTE]On December 14 2011 02:49 Milkis wrote:
You're far from rational. A rational action would mean that you understand the consequences of the actions and you have thought it through and made your decision.
Yea, that would be like if someone wrote a blog bashing the SC2 community, saying BW was the only real esport and was then shocked and upset when said SC2 community fires back at him....oh wait.
[/QUOTE]
Irrational would be expecting people to actually read what was written before taking shots about it. Or expecting people to read the next sentence even. [/QUOTE]
Exactly, and I don't get all this Naniwa hate. The kid's a genius when it comes to entertainment.
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I honestly don't see how anyone can solely blame GOM for this as almost every single tournament that uses groups has games that "don't matter." It's not just GOM.
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Also if you want to argue the point that leagues should "just cancel" games that don't matter. You run the extreme risk of not having content for x amount of time you had planned out to have the match. I'd rather run a game that doesn't matter than to not have any content for an hour.
Secondly you are making the argument that in any sport (pro sports included), teams should not play once they cannot advance. That would be less appealing to sponsors because it's another factor into how much time they will get on air. For example, baseball/basketball/any other sports team would just forfeit all of their games once they knew they wouldn't make playoffs. There would be 0 revenue from those games instead of any at all. Think about how much revenue NFL teams make on "games that don't matter." It's not just about the players anymore, eSports is too big for that. It's about quality control, something that leagues, teams, and players need to work on.
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On December 14 2011 07:36 XIJABERWALKIX wrote:
I honestly don't see how anyone can solely blame GOM for this as almost every single tournament that uses groups has games that "don't matter." It's not just GOM.
Because everyone does it none of them are at fault? That's doesn't make any sense.
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On December 14 2011 07:45 DoomsVille wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 07:36 XIJABERWALKIX wrote:
I honestly don't see how anyone can solely blame GOM for this as almost every single tournament that uses groups has games that "don't matter." It's not just GOM. Because everyone does it none of them are at fault? That's doesn't make any sense.
Because everyone does it means that you should blame all of them if you are going to blame anyone, not JUST GOM.
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Anyone arguing even slightly that Naniwa's actions are even slightly justifiable have probably never been competitive in any sport/game ever. Stop being spuds and realize the gravity of this poor act of sportsmanship by Naniwa.
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Isn't this analogy too broad? Not even getting into team sports vs individual sports, I think there's a better example to be had here.
Wouldn't this be more like Brett Lawrie at the plate with 2 outs in the bottom of the 6th facing off against David Price? And lets say the Jays are down 13-2. Instead of taking his at bat competitively, Lawrie just lackadaisically swings at every pitch. That's not a a non-0 strategy. You could hit the ball if Price just delivered a no movement 4-seamer down the middle. So...is Lawrie justified? I guess. Would the fans that paid ticket prices be unhappy? Well..don't they have every right to be? Even if David Price pitched a gem and Bautista hit one out of the park and Evan Longoria got on base 6 times and Ben Zobrist made 10 diving catches....Lawrie didn't bother.
Does this mean that Naniwa's a bad dude? I don't think so. But it was pretty lame, no?
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On December 14 2011 07:43 XIJABERWALKIX wrote:
Also if you want to argue the point that leagues should "just cancel" games that don't matter. You run the extreme risk of not having content for x amount of time you had planned out to have the match. I'd rather run a game that doesn't matter than to not have any content for an hour.
Secondly you are making the argument that in any sport (pro sports included), teams should not play once they cannot advance. That would be less appealing to sponsors because it's another factor into how much time they will get on air. For example, baseball/basketball/any other sports team would just forfeit all of their games once they knew they wouldn't make playoffs. There would be 0 revenue from those games instead of any at all. Think about how much revenue NFL teams make on "games that don't matter." It's not just about the players anymore, eSports is too big for that. It's about quality control, something that leagues, teams, and players need to work on.
When teams are eliminated in the playoffs, they don't play out the remainder of the series in the NBA/NHL/etc. playoffs. They cut games after elimination all the time.
Why do they need to be played in the season? Because fans have paid for tickets. Fans are promised 82 games. Cables networks have paid for the rights to broadcast. In the playoffs, they sell air-time for games that they know will take place. When they know another game is coming, more air-time/tickets/whatever is sold.
That's what the GSL could have done too. Plan to play x number of games and state that the last few are (if necessary) like every other playoffs/elimination style sport does. On average the sponsors know what they are getting as do the fans.
Not saying they should have done that. But would you want to watch G7 of an NBA series when it ended 4-0 a few games back? Fuck no. Same reason I don't want to watch a meaningless game between two players where they obviously won't show any real builds/strategies or try their hardest.
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On December 14 2011 08:09 DoomsVille wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 07:43 XIJABERWALKIX wrote:
Also if you want to argue the point that leagues should "just cancel" games that don't matter. You run the extreme risk of not having content for x amount of time you had planned out to have the match. I'd rather run a game that doesn't matter than to not have any content for an hour.
Secondly you are making the argument that in any sport (pro sports included), teams should not play once they cannot advance. That would be less appealing to sponsors because it's another factor into how much time they will get on air. For example, baseball/basketball/any other sports team would just forfeit all of their games once they knew they wouldn't make playoffs. There would be 0 revenue from those games instead of any at all. Think about how much revenue NFL teams make on "games that don't matter." It's not just about the players anymore, eSports is too big for that. It's about quality control, something that leagues, teams, and players need to work on. When teams are eliminated in the playoffs, they don't play out the remainder of the series in the NBA/NHL/etc. playoffs. They cut games after elimination all the time. Why do they need to be played in the season? Because fans have paid for tickets. Fans are promised 82 games. Cables networks have paid for the rights to broadcast. In the playoffs, they sell air-time for games that they know will take place. When they know another game is coming, more air-time/tickets/whatever is sold. That's what the GSL could have done too. Plan to play x number of games and state that the last few are (if necessary) like every other playoffs/elimination style sport does. On average the sponsors know what they are getting as do the fans. Not saying they should have done that. But would you want to watch G7 of an NBA series when it ended 4-0 a few games back? Fuck no. Same reason I don't want to watch a meaningless game between two players where they obviously won't show any real builds/strategies or try their hardest.
It's all about the money. What you're saying is the ideal situation, however in the playoffs of sports games are not played right in a row so companies have time to pay for the slots reserved. All I'm saying is it's more appealing to sponsors as right now it's not exactly like they're bidding for the SC market.
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On December 14 2011 02:49 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 01:52 Mecker wrote:On December 14 2011 01:44 CosmicSpiral wrote:
Crashburn, I regret to inform you that your entire argument rests upon a personal peeve of mine: the common mistake of confusing a disparity in goal-oriented philosophies with a disparity between logic and emotion. The truth is the OP is not rational in the slightest. It does not even attempt to be rational in the proper sense of "rational" i.e. arriving at a conclusion based on certain premises that themselves are established via some type of reasoning. You simply state facts and assume that some mystic property from one fact carries over to the other, and thus it leads to another conclusion that ultimately supports your own position on the topic.
Your entire argument is that he should've forfeited "officially" instead of throwing the game. A rational person, like myself, would realise that the outcome is the same and thus the actions can be qualified as equal. You can't call Nani's actions irrational because viewers are having an irrational reaction. You're far from rational. A rational action would mean that you understand the consequences of the actions and you have thought it through and made your decision. An irrational action is like raging like a retard on blogs because a few people said rather retarded things to you and reacting emotionally and not thinking through of consequences. Actually, let's agree that Naniwa *was* rational. Then his actions are even more insulting because he still chose the option that made a mockery of everyone involved publicly. If he had just told GOM he's forfeiting the last match it would have been covered up nicely by GOM as "well there's no point in playing the last match...". He deliberately chose this option because it's more of a public mockery. Then are the fans irrational for calling him out for it? It's clear Naniwa was being irrational and his actions had very unintended consequences he was probably unaware of given that he's from a far different culture. Yes, fans are outraged, Koreans are insulted because turns out Naniwa is a bounty hunter instead of what they call a "progamer". Yes, people will react to what they see in their own perspective and not yours because they all have their own definitions that they will stick to no matter what kind of definitions you want to use. Their outrage is rational given their expectations. So drop the fucking pretense because you're no better than anyone else being outraged at this situation.
milkis thought you left forever? not in my wildest dreams did i ever think you'd return!
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[QUOTE]On December 14 2011 06:46 Milkis wrote:
[QUOTE]On December 14 2011 04:06 g35nole wrote:
[QUOTE]On December 14 2011 02:49 Milkis wrote:
You're far from rational. A rational action would mean that you understand the consequences of the actions and you have thought it through and made your decision.
Yea, that would be like if someone wrote a blog bashing the SC2 community, saying BW was the only real esport and was then shocked and upset when said SC2 community fires back at him....oh wait.
[/QUOTE]
Irrational would be expecting people to actually read what was written before taking shots about it. Or expecting people to read the next sentence even. [/QUOTE]
"An irrational action is like raging like a retard on blogs because a few people said rather retarded things to you and reacting emotionally and not thinking through of consequences."
Reacting emotionally and not thinking through the consequences. So like... abandoning your postion as a translator and no longer being a community pillar because some people bashed you and your stance on esports. Which in the long run hurts the Korean SC2 players who you helped more then it hurts the kids on the internet who flamed you? Kind of like that?
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Quite frankly, his analogy couldn't be anymore wrong. As a person who follows professional sports (MLB, NHL, NFL) just as much, if not more than SC2; I can't believe you used a re-building sports franchise as a comparison to a guy throwing a meaningless SC2 game.
There are literally no parallels between the two, and baseball and starcraft couldn't be anymore different. The Astros fielded a AAA lineup for a majority of the season. This is not because they wanted to, but they were forced to because of payroll issues, failure to maintain a winning % above 40 (losing A LOT), and with that comes severe lack in attendance which they were already dealing with before. The team has nothing to lose, and oddly, something to potentially gain from losing a lot of games, which is a high draft pick.
That is literally the only comparison though, Naniwa and the 2010-2011 Houston Astros both had essentially failed before the big show ended (meaning the GOM tourney and the entire 162 games played by the Astros).
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Have you considered betting implications? A team lineup would be known before the game and the odds of a weakened team winning/losing would be priced in. Throwing the game is basically match fixing. It's not the point whether there was any money or not put on the game, there probably wasn't. But if SC2 wants to take itself seriously, this kind of thing can't be allowed to occur.
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5003 Posts
On December 14 2011 08:52 g35nole wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 06:46 Milkis wrote:On December 14 2011 04:06 g35nole wrote:On December 14 2011 02:49 Milkis wrote:
You're far from rational. A rational action would mean that you understand the consequences of the actions and you have thought it through and made your decision. Yea, that would be like if someone wrote a blog bashing the SC2 community, saying BW was the only real esport and was then shocked and upset when said SC2 community fires back at him....oh wait. Irrational would be expecting people to actually read what was written before taking shots about it. Or expecting people to read the next sentence even. "An irrational action is like raging like a retard on blogs because a few people said rather retarded things to you and reacting emotionally and not thinking through of consequences."Reacting emotionally and not thinking through the consequences. So like... abandoning your postion as a translator and no longer being a community pillar because some people bashed you and your stance on esports. Which in the long run hurts the Korean SC2 players who you helped more then it hurts the kids on the internet who flamed you? Kind of like that?
1) I quit immediately after MLG Orlando. In fact, you can read about that in my MLG Orlando recap.
2) Yes, exactly like that. If you read the post I wrote to begin with which you took out of context to take a pot shot at me... I pretty much state what you said verbatim.
3) For someone who can't read you sure talk a lot about consequences. Learn to read before you make any more stupid comments.
Thanks.
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Naniwa failed at his job. Which is to entertain. Because if Starcraft wasn't entertaining, the GSL would be held inside your mother's basement. Would Tiger Woods get millions if no one gave a shit about golf?
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On December 13 2011 22:33 imMUTAble787 wrote:
I really don't see any validity to the comparison you chose at all. Naniwa punted a game in an invitational tournament that was supposed to showcase the top talent of SC2 from the year. It was cowardly and childish at best.
It's even borderline hypocritical to see someone who constantly says they care about nothing other than winning to purposely lose a game like that.
He cheesed.. he punted? Punting would've been sending his probes over to nestea and leaving the booth while the probes were going there. If his hands were still on the mouse and the keyboard then you don't have that as an argument.
Sorry I don't know when people chose what cheese was acceptable or not but that seems to be all the talk I've been hearing.
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