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On December 13 2011 23:43 reapsen wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 23:27 Crashburn wrote:
If strategy_winrate =< 0
then strategy = invalid
If strategy_winrate > 0
then strategy = valid
Unless you can prove that strategy_winrate (in this case, worker-rushing) is zero, you can't really fall on the "this strategy was designed to lose" argument. Obviously, this taking an already inane debate to another extreme, but really, that argument needs to die. If you continue to go with it, then you must logically set an arbitrary threshold at some point. Is it strategy_winrate = 0.1%? Why not 0.2%? Or 0.01%? If you can't explain that, then you have no business making the argument.
Obviously, GOM can set their rules (which, as far as I know, are presently nonexistent) however they want, just as baseball has a logical inconsistency in banning amphetamines, but not energy drinks. I wouldn't have a problem with that. Not sure if serious, or trolling. Are you really a professional writer and yet grinding the argument, that the worker-rush may or may not be "valid"??!? Come on dude, you can't be serious. You want "prove"? 1. a zerg drone defeats a probe in a 1v1 battle, if not microed. 2. the time it takes to walk you probes to the zergs base is mining time for the zerg. 3. depending on the map, spawn positions and so on this mining time leads to a more or less huge advantage, but its ALWAYS at least 50 minerals (a drone). 4. Win. See also http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Worker_RushYou can also read the Blog from Gheed, he did like a thousand worker rushes IN BRONZE... http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=286351
Sending out Triple A players in MLB is little different than 1% win rate strategy's in SC2. Only difference is in MLB it is totally acceptable. There is no hate on teams that field bad rosters. They just understand what it is.
MLB seasons towards the end are basically workers rush vs worker rush. You just have this false impression that the MLB community sees it in a different light. They see it for what it is, and they accept it.
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Does anyone remember how pissed off everyone was at Sjow v. White-Ra at Dreamhack Winter 2011? It was group stages and both players had been sealed out of advancement. In fact, it took place right after Sjow had been locked out in an extremely tense series. It was also late. The tournament had been running for >14hours, and Day[9] was going delirious on the other stream casting the most boring game of all time (1.5hr Happy v. ToD). Even Total Biscuit had started complaining about wanting to go to bed rather than cast Sjow v. White-Ra.
Sjow, likely pissed off about having to play a series that didn't matter just after losing his most important series of the night, executed a series of build that made no sense. This could have been a glorious TvP. But it was not. It was abundantly clear that neither player was playing to win. There was no glory. There was no honor at stake. There was no inspiring micro or beautiful positioning. Just two players who clearly had no more F***s to give.
Remember how outraged people were about this?
Oh right, they weren't.
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You are so right. When a game doesn't matter why should they have to play it out.
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There is no rule for this because it seems unheard of in Korean culture. Are you saying that just because GOM doesn't have an explicit rule that it's okay? Common sense needs to be had at some point. I'm gonna go crap in a urinal now
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On December 13 2011 23:50 Arcane86 wrote:
Does anyone remember how pissed off everyone was at Sjow v. White-Ra at Dreamhack Winter 2011? It was group stages and both players had been sealed out of advancement. In fact, it took place right after Sjow had been locked out in an extremely tense series. It was also late. The tournament had been running for >14hours, and Day[9] was going delirious on the other stream casting the most boring game of all time (1.5hr Happy v. ToD). Even Total Biscuit had started complaining about wanting to go to bed rather than cast Sjow v. White-Ra.
Sjow, likely pissed off about having to play a series that didn't matter just after losing his most important series of the night, executed a series of build that made no sense. This could have been a glorious TvP. But it was not. It was abundantly clear that neither player was playing to win. There was no glory. There was no honor at stake. There was no inspiring micro or beautiful positioning. Just two players who clearly had no more F***s to give.
Remember how outraged people were about this?
Oh right, they weren't.
Now you switch names with Naniwa and Nestea and internet blows up. Internet is stupid. And im gona end at this.
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Thank you for a great read!
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On December 13 2011 22:22 Mi.rai wrote:
I agree, nothing was on the line. The game shouldn't be played and this situation wouldn't have happened.
I and i shitload of other people paid $10 or some $20 so i can understand why people are pissed. I found it funny...
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On December 13 2011 22:33 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 22:28 Crais wrote:
In soccer last year Wolves fielded a weakened team on purpose vs Manchester United so that they could rest their players for a later game. Caused a shit storm, ticket refunds, fines. EPL actually has a rule that says you must field a full strength side or something tho, unlike american sports
I don't remember that game at all. It's very common in football to send out your B team to rest A team players for more important games. Very very common, in fact.
For example now that Man U are in the Europa League, you can be damn sure they won't be fielding the players they do against the top flight teams...and no one will say a damn word about it.
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Thanks a lot. Great read on the whole situation.
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your post does not include anything of value.
And tbh I don't care for what organisation you write or who you are. What you are saying is just incorrect and not very well thought through. Your job does not change anything about it.
you say about a probe rush:
"but it is non-zero, which makes it valid nonetheless"
That is just delusional. Either you lie to yourself and others or you have no clue about this game. A probe rush will and can never win a PvZ on pro level. No pro player will say any different. So your argument is actually completely wrong.
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Everyone seems to have forgotten that Idra did also forfeit matches in IPL groupstage because they didn't matter. Most of the people were okay about that, because it was a fan favourite who did that and not Naniwa.
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On December 13 2011 22:15 Crashburn wrote:
Naniwa is taking entirely too much grief for what was ultimately a decision made in his best interest. That's true for Coca too, by the way, he needed practice. Koreans apparently did not care that he was pursuing his best interest for personal development. In both cases there should have been no real consequence, except a simple warning to handle the same situation better administratively next time (with official resign without actually playing or sending replays).
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United States19229 Posts
There's a difference in not trying as hard, and completely throwing a game. Unmicro'd probes have literally 0.0000000% chance of winning that game lest nestea has a heart attack.
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what naniwa did is the equivalent of a professional golf player taking happy gilmore swings on the back nine of the fourth round when he is totally out of contention, not substituting backup players for starters in a game that lacks "true" impact in relation to the rest of the sport (especially when there may be totally legitimate reasons for doing so i.e. potential injury, getting young players experience, etc.)
any appeal to the contrary is absurd and objectively nonfactual
edit: coherency
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On December 14 2011 00:01 The KY wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 22:33 Waxangel wrote:On December 13 2011 22:28 Crais wrote:
In soccer last year Wolves fielded a weakened team on purpose vs Manchester United so that they could rest their players for a later game. Caused a shit storm, ticket refunds, fines. EPL actually has a rule that says you must field a full strength side or something tho, unlike american sports I don't remember that game at all. It's very common in football to send out your B team to rest A team players for more important games. Very very common, in fact. For example now that Man U are in the Europa League, you can be damn sure they won't be fielding the players they do against the top flight teams...and no one will say a damn word about it.
Yep and nobody said a word when United rested their entire starting lineup vs Hull in order to prepare for the CL final - and that game could have saved Hull from relegation, so it could have had massive implications.
This happens all the time in football. The only two examples I can remember of fines (and very small ones tbf) being handed out are the wolves vs utd and blackpool vs villa last season. But both incidents were highly controversial even though the PL has rules against this. Let's remember, there are no rules against this in SC2.
Players also do this all the time in starcraft. They just don't do it as blatantly as naniwa did.
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When MLB teams that are not in contention send out their Minor League players in games in late September, they aren't doing it to throw the game and are not intentionally fielding a bad team (The roster spots open up from 25 to 40 in September, plus the Minor League season is over so those players have nothing to do otherwise).
They do it to DEVELOP THEIR YOUNG TALENT OF THE FUTURE BY GIVING THEM BIG LEAGUE EXPERIENCE, not to lose a game on purpose because they are disinterested. Jesus Christ.
The example that you give has NOTHING to do with THROWING a "MEANINGLESS" match (That a lot of people, including the casters, were looking forward to, and paid money to watch in HQ) in a 1V1 game. This is not a "rational" take on the situation AT ALL. This is a SHAM of a thread and YOU ARE WRONG.
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On December 14 2011 00:05 Darksteel wrote:
Everyone seems to have forgotten that Idra did also forfeit matches in IPL groupstage because they didn't matter. Most of the people were okay about that, because it was a fan favourite who did that and not Naniwa.
A few things to note is that due to technical difficulties, games were running at least 3? hours late at that IPL and they were kind of scrambling to finish up games as is. Also, Idra at least had the argument that forfeiting those games so he could get a full nights rest before his matches the following day would be beneficial to how he would play the rest of the tournament. Naniwa had no benefit from not playing out that game.
Likewise when Idra forfeited MLG placement games previously, (not the haypro one at the finals, as he said he didn't hear the call) these were not broadcasted matches, and were never going to be broadcasted, which I feel is significant.
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United States15275 Posts
On December 14 2011 00:05 Darksteel wrote:
Everyone seems to have forgotten that Idra did also forfeit matches in IPL groupstage because they didn't matter. Most of the people were okay about that, because it was a fan favourite who did that and not Naniwa.
The community can be extremely hypocritical at times, but do not confuse norms with facts. That's exactly what the OP fails to confront.
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I completely agree with most of the article. I don't know about how 'valid' the probe rush is, but beyond that everything you've laid out makes sense. And for everyone with a hang up about the probe rush comment, you should realize that that was only the weaker of two arguments being made here. There was no logical gap that the probe rush point was filling.
Player enters tournament to win.
The tournament structure forced a player to play a game which wouldn't benifit him.
Player didn't care about the game.
Player probe rushes because he doesn't care.
If we accept that players are playing to to win and not to produce great games, then I think that this is completely understandable. It's a tournament's responsibility to put players in the position to create great games.
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Personally the only thing I'm disappointed about is the fact that I didn't get to see it. I really wish people would calm down. Oh my god, he was actually frustrated? What an outrage, he needs to man the fuck up and play his heart out. Whats with the double standard? Idra preemptive GG's all the time, but suddenly a legit worker rush is deemed too far?
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EPT
