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I really can't fathom the fact that people are still tying to make Naniwa's actions look acceptable.
He's a progamer, a team pays and supports him in whatever way they can so he can represent their brand to the best of his abilities. The reason his career is even possible is because of all the people who want to see the best Starcraft possible. The reason he even gets to play tournaments is because there's people spending their entire professional career organising events, raising sponsorships, creating an environment where a player like Naniwa can show his skill and compete.
Throwing the game like that because he can't win the tournament anymore is just an insult to all the people involved. A player that wasn't so selfish would have done his best to make the game entertaining, acknowledging that there's more interests involved than just his own desire for victory. The fact that he doesn't even let the game play out to give his new team some exposure shows how much he cares.
Also, fielding a B-team for games that don't matter in whatever sport is completely different. Having your best players rest for upcoming important matches is strategical, so is the fielding of rookies to give them some experience. And even then a team isn't going to roll over and take it, they'll still want to win and show something to their fans, regardless of whether it "matters" competition wise. A probe rush is similar to just sitting on the gras during a soccer match, there's literally no intention whatsoever to even play, let alone win.
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BTW, for the people claiming that A) the Astros were justified in sending out their B-team and B) Naniwa owes it to the fans to play the game out, I ask you, what lineup did Astros fans pay to see when they bought their ticket? Did they pay to see Scrubby McScrubberson, who will toil on shoddy buses in the Minor Leagues for the next three years, or did they pay to see Veteran McAwesomesauce, a cornerstone of the franchise?
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When people pay to watch GSL, they pay to watch all the matches in the tournament. Blizzard cup doesn't actually have that many matches, and I know now that if I pay for that particular tournament, I'll be buying the match of Naniwa vs Nestea.
That's the issue I have with what he did.
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Why are people saying well this is bad for Quantic. Can't you people understand that everyone is talking abtout QUANTIC naniwa, how he just joined QUANTIC. They get so much publicity out of this. Nani should have done nothing different, i as a spectator was like lol nice now we can watch MMA and the awsome games that might follow afterwards. I don't understand why people are upset. Some people have different mentalities, "white-ra cares" so he would have played that game just for fun make some special tactics, while nani doesn't care about anything but wining, that is top priority, for him this was wasted time so he wanted the shortest game possible, and you do that by worker rushing, he could have won but there was a 99% chance that he would lose. So stop crying naniwa doesn't owe you anything but games where he wins. And in my opinon quantic gaming gained huge publicity due to this and no one should be mad. So grow up people!
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On December 13 2011 23:37 Crashburn wrote:
BTW, for the people claiming that A) the Astros were justified in sending out their B-team and B) Naniwa owes it to the fans to play the game out, I ask you, what lineup did Astros fans pay to see when they bought their ticket? Did they pay to see Scrubby McScrubberson, who will toil on shoddy buses in the Minor Leagues for the next three years, or did they pay to see Veteran McAwesomesauce, a cornerstone of the franchise?
But the B-Team STILL PLAYED THEIR HARDEST AND TRIED TO WIN!! They weren't sent out there with the purpose of losing, they wanted to win. Do you see the difference?
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On December 13 2011 22:47 MrCash wrote:
Let's also forgive Coca and everyone else who ever dropped games intentionally.
There can be no gray area when it comes to losing intentionally, it is a very slippery slope which can lead to horrible ramifications for ALL of eSports, not just one player.
This should not be tolerated, no matter what kind of mental gymnastics you try to do in order to justify it.
Exactly what I was thinking.
While GOM may not/can not/ should not penalize Naniwa because Naniwa hasnt violated any rules written in stone, there has to be repercussions for intentionally throwing a game. For all the people rationalising this incident, we might as well never try to have words like sportsmanship in Esports. I for one just cannot support a player like Naniwa. We are in a grey area when we start talkin about morality of a Sport, but it exists.. in every sport. And its clear to everyone when it is violated.. this case being clearly one.
Going after GOM also does not make sense because they are always redundant games in every sport. Doesn mean the spectators do not deserve an honest showing.
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On December 13 2011 23:36 Saechiis wrote:
I really can't fathom the fact that people are still tying to make Naniwa's actions look acceptable.
He's a progamer, a team pays and supports him in whatever way they can so he can represent their brand to the best of his abilities. The reason his career is even possible is because of all the people who want to see the best Starcraft possible. The reason he even gets to play tournaments is because there's people spending their entire professional career organising events, raising sponsorships, creating an environment where a player like Naniwa can show his skill and compete.
Throwing the game like that because he can't win the tournament anymore is just an insult to all the people involved. A player that wasn't so selfish would have done his best to make the game entertaining, acknowledging that there's more interests involved than just his own desire for victory. The fact that he doesn't even let the game play out to give his new team some exposure shows how much he cares.
On the other hand, if they played and pretended the game was a 'real' game (i.e. they tried their best) they would be giant frauds, and pretending that these games are ever going to be worthy of the same respect as the games that actually matter is an insult to professional gaming. I would feel far more insulted if they'd duked it out in a macro game and tried to pull some 'best player won' bullshit afterwards when everyone knows neither of them brought their best builds or strategies.
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On December 13 2011 22:34 Crashburn wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 22:33 aderum wrote:On December 13 2011 22:31 leo23 wrote:
So do you think it's ok if Houston would have thrown a fly ball and not bat at all?
As I've said in other threads, I would have been happy if he at least done a 2 gate cheese of some sort (sending out his B team) but I think naniwa sent his double A team here. So you deside which cheese is good enough? Yeah cause that make sense... Right, that's the arbitrary line I was talking about. If we declare worker rushes a disrespectful tactic, what precedent is there to stop us from doing the same with cannon rushes, or bunker pushes, or 6 pool + spine rushes?
No micro from Naniwa....
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On December 13 2011 23:34 Crashburn wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 23:33 jenzebubble wrote:On December 13 2011 23:31 Crashburn wrote:On December 13 2011 23:31 jenzebubble wrote:On December 13 2011 23:29 Crashburn wrote:On December 13 2011 23:29 Slider954 wrote:On December 13 2011 23:27 Crashburn wrote:
If strategy_winrate =< 0
then strategy = invalid
If strategy_winrate >= 0
then strategy = valid
Unless you can prove that strategy_winrate (in this case, worker-rushing) is zero, you can't really fall on the "this strategy was designed to lose" argument. Obviously, this taking an already inane debate to another extreme, but really, that argument needs to die. If you continue to go with it, then you must logically set an arbitrary threshold at some point. Is it strategy_winrate = 0.1%? Why not 0.2%? Or 0.01%? If you can't explain that, then you have no business making the argument.
Obviously, GOM can set their rules (which, as far as I know, are presently nonexistent) however they want, just as baseball has a logical inconsistency in banning amphetamines, but not energy drinks. I wouldn't have a problem with that. You don't think taking your hands off the keyboard once you have sent the drones and not reacting at all to what Nestea did or what his build is is 0% 'strategy'? It's not about what I think; it's about what you can prove. I think the burden of proof is on you to show that a player with 7 supply, all workers, has won a game with their hands off of the keyboard. No, I'm not the party trying to legislate what strategies are and are not allowed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance Your Wikipedia skills are appreciated, but that article is wrongfully cited, my friend.
"Unless you can prove that strategy_winrate (in this case, worker-rushing) is zero, you can't really fall on the "this strategy was designed to lose" argument."
From the Wikipedia article I linked:
"Arguments that appeal to ignorance rely merely on the fact that the veracity of the proposition is not disproven to arrive at a definite conclusion."
I can break down what you posted into predicate calculus for you if you'd like. That will show how your argument is, in fact, argument from ignorance.
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Theres hundreds of Koreans trying hard as hell to get to play in the GSL and nani goes and just forfeits a game like that.. And please don't say it was a valid cheese, he didn't even try to micro his probes.
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On December 13 2011 23:39 Slider954 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 23:37 Crashburn wrote:
BTW, for the people claiming that A) the Astros were justified in sending out their B-team and B) Naniwa owes it to the fans to play the game out, I ask you, what lineup did Astros fans pay to see when they bought their ticket? Did they pay to see Scrubby McScrubberson, who will toil on shoddy buses in the Minor Leagues for the next three years, or did they pay to see Veteran McAwesomesauce, a cornerstone of the franchise? But the B-Team STILL PLAYED THEIR HARDEST AND TRIED TO WIN!! They weren't sent out there with the purpose of losing, they wanted to win. Do you see the difference?
I'm pretty sure the Astros did not try their hardest to win the game, as their best lineup was not on the field. Additionally, you're assuming intent, which is specious at best.
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I have to agree with the OP.
All of this discontent from a bad match (that didn't matter) should be taken up with GOM, not Naniwa.
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On December 13 2011 23:27 Crashburn wrote:
If strategy_winrate =< 0
then strategy = invalid
If strategy_winrate > 0
then strategy = valid
Unless you can prove that strategy_winrate (in this case, worker-rushing) is zero, you can't really fall on the "this strategy was designed to lose" argument. Obviously, this taking an already inane debate to another extreme, but really, that argument needs to die. If you continue to go with it, then you must logically set an arbitrary threshold at some point. Is it strategy_winrate = 0.1%? Why not 0.2%? Or 0.01%? If you can't explain that, then you have no business making the argument.
Obviously, GOM can set their rules (which, as far as I know, are presently nonexistent) however they want, just as baseball has a logical inconsistency in banning amphetamines, but not energy drinks. I wouldn't have a problem with that.
Not sure if serious, or trolling. Are you really a professional writer and yet grinding the argument, that the worker-rush may or may not be "valid"??!? Come on dude, you can't be serious.
You want "prove"?
1. a zerg drone defeats a probe in a 1v1 battle, if not microed.
2. the time it takes to walk you probes to the zergs base is mining time for the zerg.
3. depending on the map, spawn positions and so on this mining time leads to a more or less huge advantage, but its ALWAYS at least 50 minerals (a drone).
4. Win.
See also
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Worker_Rush
You can also read the Blog from Gheed, he did like a thousand worker rushes IN BRONZE...
http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=286351
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On December 13 2011 22:34 Crashburn wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 22:33 aderum wrote:On December 13 2011 22:31 leo23 wrote:
So do you think it's ok if Houston would have thrown a fly ball and not bat at all?
As I've said in other threads, I would have been happy if he at least done a 2 gate cheese of some sort (sending out his B team) but I think naniwa sent his double A team here. So you deside which cheese is good enough? Yeah cause that make sense... Right, that's the arbitrary line I was talking about. If we declare worker rushes a disrespectful tactic, what precedent is there to stop us from doing the same with cannon rushes, or bunker pushes, or 6 pool + spine rushes?
At Naniwa's level, a 6 worker rush is not a winnable strategy. He could do it 10000 games in a row and would lose every single one.
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On December 13 2011 23:37 Crashburn wrote:
BTW, for the people claiming that A) the Astros were justified in sending out their B-team and B) Naniwa owes it to the fans to play the game out, I ask you, what lineup did Astros fans pay to see when they bought their ticket? Did they pay to see Scrubby McScrubberson, who will toil on shoddy buses in the Minor Leagues for the next three years, or did they pay to see Veteran McAwesomesauce, a cornerstone of the franchise?
No one is saying he had to play at his absolute best, but at least make more than 3 total actions for your entire game. If you are speaking as an impartial journalist, you have to agree that sending out your AAA farm team is STILL better than what Naniwa did.
In terms of ticket buyers, Baseball has been going on for what, well over a century now? 99% of baseball fans know what happens at the end of seasons by now. I really don't think there are many if any complaints about who plays in the games at the end of seasons, AS LONG AS THEY PLAY. Naniwa didn't play.
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On December 13 2011 23:42 Crashburn wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 23:39 Slider954 wrote:On December 13 2011 23:37 Crashburn wrote:
BTW, for the people claiming that A) the Astros were justified in sending out their B-team and B) Naniwa owes it to the fans to play the game out, I ask you, what lineup did Astros fans pay to see when they bought their ticket? Did they pay to see Scrubby McScrubberson, who will toil on shoddy buses in the Minor Leagues for the next three years, or did they pay to see Veteran McAwesomesauce, a cornerstone of the franchise? But the B-Team STILL PLAYED THEIR HARDEST AND TRIED TO WIN!! They weren't sent out there with the purpose of losing, they wanted to win. Do you see the difference? I'm pretty sure the Astros did not try their hardest to win the game, as their best lineup was not on the field. Additionally, you're assuming intent, which is specious at best.
So you are saying those B-Teamers didn't try their hardest to win, didn't try their hardest to show that they can play at the major league level and belong at the major league level? Mind you I'm saying the actual players not the team/organization.
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On December 13 2011 23:42 Crashburn wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 23:39 Slider954 wrote:On December 13 2011 23:37 Crashburn wrote:
BTW, for the people claiming that A) the Astros were justified in sending out their B-team and B) Naniwa owes it to the fans to play the game out, I ask you, what lineup did Astros fans pay to see when they bought their ticket? Did they pay to see Scrubby McScrubberson, who will toil on shoddy buses in the Minor Leagues for the next three years, or did they pay to see Veteran McAwesomesauce, a cornerstone of the franchise? But the B-Team STILL PLAYED THEIR HARDEST AND TRIED TO WIN!! They weren't sent out there with the purpose of losing, they wanted to win. Do you see the difference? I'm pretty sure the Astros did not try their hardest to win the game, as their best lineup was not on the field. Additionally, you're assuming intent, which is specious at best.
"I'm pretty sure [...] Additionally, you're assuming intent, which is specious at best."
You, sir, have huge brass balls. Congratulations.
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All right, I need sleep. Thanks for reading and for the discussion. I'll check back later and try to reply, assuming there aren't 5,000 new responses.
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On December 13 2011 23:46 jenzebubble wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 23:42 Crashburn wrote:On December 13 2011 23:39 Slider954 wrote:On December 13 2011 23:37 Crashburn wrote:
BTW, for the people claiming that A) the Astros were justified in sending out their B-team and B) Naniwa owes it to the fans to play the game out, I ask you, what lineup did Astros fans pay to see when they bought their ticket? Did they pay to see Scrubby McScrubberson, who will toil on shoddy buses in the Minor Leagues for the next three years, or did they pay to see Veteran McAwesomesauce, a cornerstone of the franchise? But the B-Team STILL PLAYED THEIR HARDEST AND TRIED TO WIN!! They weren't sent out there with the purpose of losing, they wanted to win. Do you see the difference? I'm pretty sure the Astros did not try their hardest to win the game, as their best lineup was not on the field. Additionally, you're assuming intent, which is specious at best. "I'm pretty sure [...] Additionally, you're assuming intent, which is specious at best." You, sir, have huge brass balls. Congratulations.
My use of "pretty sure" was a rhetorical device, not an assumption of intent. It's an actual fact that they did not try their hardest to win, considering they were not using their best lineup.
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On December 13 2011 22:33 imMUTAble787 wrote:
I really don't see any validity to the comparison you chose at all. Naniwa punted a game in an invitational tournament that was supposed to showcase the top talent of SC2 from the year. It was cowardly and childish at best.
It's even borderline hypocritical to see someone who constantly says they care about nothing other than winning to purposely lose a game like that.
too bad half the games were good ol cheese
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EPT
