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On December 13 2011 22:38 aderum wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 22:37 leo23 wrote:On December 13 2011 22:34 Crashburn wrote:On December 13 2011 22:33 aderum wrote:On December 13 2011 22:31 leo23 wrote:
So do you think it's ok if Houston would have thrown a fly ball and not bat at all?
As I've said in other threads, I would have been happy if he at least done a 2 gate cheese of some sort (sending out his B team) but I think naniwa sent his double A team here. So you deside which cheese is good enough? Yeah cause that make sense... Right, that's the arbitrary line I was talking about. If we declare worker rushes a disrespectful tactic, what precedent is there to stop us from doing the same with cannon rushes, or bunker pushes, or 6 pool + spine rushes? what is the win percentage for a worker rush as opposed to a 6 pool or bunker / cannon rushes? disrespectful tactic is not what I'm referring to, I'm referring to losing the game on purpose How do you know he "wanted" to lose that game? He obviously didnt want to play a long game, but that doesnt make him want to lose. Polt and MMA clearly didnt want to play long games either, but people arent freaking out about that.
Hey Swede. I know this might sound crazy, but I don't think any single high-level player would agree with you that a Probe rush (a-move and then taking hands off keyboard) has any remote chance of winning against Nestea.
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Agreed. Thanks for this write up.
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If we're talking in baseball analogies, what Naniwa was doing was putting 9 pitchers in the lineup and then having his batboy as the pitcher. I don't think many people would mind if he tried some wonky all in build, but to do something that lame is just beyond stupid. Again in professional sports, they take that opportunity of a failed season to get their younger players some action. You are playing against one of the best zergs in the game, why wouldn't you take that opportunity to better yourself?
I hear Naniwa say he just wants to be the best and is dedicated on doing everything it takes to do that. That one match shows that he either is full of it, or doesn't believe that every time he sits down to play a game of starcraft he can learn something or work on something from that game...and I don't think he'll ever become the best he can with that sort of attitude.
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I think that perhaps Naniwa knows all too well how many elements of the Starcraft 2 community love throwing short lived and arbitrary shit fits. He knew that the name recognition for his new team would increase more if he did something never done before (cross position worker rush PvZ) than if he played a standard game at a point where the result was meaningless.
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Excellent article. You summed up everything I was saying in the other threads perfectly. The typical SC2 fan knows nothing of real sports. Endlessly bringing up how in "real sports" this never happens... when in fact it has been happening for decades.
Naniwa did nothing wrong. He dose not owe a thing to anyone. Bad tournament structure, period.
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it seems to me that people give a whole lot of crap about someone who obviously doesn´t care that much about them in return...
he´s just a socially awkward penguin - no offense nani.
its not "bad" or "good" - its just what it is, at the very least it is for me.
but i guess our community likes to shit on everything that runs somewhere outside our expectations...
a man i once knew, actually he was a jerk, said: lifes not a pony-ranch...
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After thinking about it, the core discussion can be boiled down to the following question:
Was this match pointless to play out?
Yes-reasons:
It was nothing on stake. They were both out of the tournament. The outcome didn't matter at all. The Match would have been a waste of time anyway.
Conclusion:
Naniwas move was totally understandable. Arguably even hilarious.
No-reasons:
It was a televised match, with thousands of people watching. There was some drama in the past between both.. The players have to deliver a good show in order to fulfill their obligations to their teams, sponsors whether anything is on the line or not. Fans were excited to see them duke it out.
Conclusion:
Naniwa acted totally unprofessional. His move was not acceptable in regards of sportsmanship and respect.
I really think thats how the discussion is structured. Naniwas, as well as the OP (and Slasher) judge the match as beeing pointless, while others do not (incl. me).
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On December 13 2011 23:10 MayorITC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 22:38 aderum wrote:On December 13 2011 22:37 leo23 wrote:On December 13 2011 22:34 Crashburn wrote:On December 13 2011 22:33 aderum wrote:On December 13 2011 22:31 leo23 wrote:
So do you think it's ok if Houston would have thrown a fly ball and not bat at all?
As I've said in other threads, I would have been happy if he at least done a 2 gate cheese of some sort (sending out his B team) but I think naniwa sent his double A team here. So you deside which cheese is good enough? Yeah cause that make sense... Right, that's the arbitrary line I was talking about. If we declare worker rushes a disrespectful tactic, what precedent is there to stop us from doing the same with cannon rushes, or bunker pushes, or 6 pool + spine rushes? what is the win percentage for a worker rush as opposed to a 6 pool or bunker / cannon rushes? disrespectful tactic is not what I'm referring to, I'm referring to losing the game on purpose How do you know he "wanted" to lose that game? He obviously didnt want to play a long game, but that doesnt make him want to lose. Polt and MMA clearly didnt want to play long games either, but people arent freaking out about that. Hey Swede. I know this might sound crazy, but I don't think any single high-level player would agree with you that a Probe rush (a-move and then taking hands off keyboard) has any remote chance of winning against Nestea.
You cannot prove it has a absolutely no chance of succeeding therefore it is simply a bad strategy. If Naniwa had instantly left the game or had attacked his own nexus, or had not touched his keyboard at all, or had never entered the booth then you would have an argument.
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On December 13 2011 23:10 MayorITC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 22:38 aderum wrote:On December 13 2011 22:37 leo23 wrote:On December 13 2011 22:34 Crashburn wrote:On December 13 2011 22:33 aderum wrote:On December 13 2011 22:31 leo23 wrote:
So do you think it's ok if Houston would have thrown a fly ball and not bat at all?
As I've said in other threads, I would have been happy if he at least done a 2 gate cheese of some sort (sending out his B team) but I think naniwa sent his double A team here. So you deside which cheese is good enough? Yeah cause that make sense... Right, that's the arbitrary line I was talking about. If we declare worker rushes a disrespectful tactic, what precedent is there to stop us from doing the same with cannon rushes, or bunker pushes, or 6 pool + spine rushes? what is the win percentage for a worker rush as opposed to a 6 pool or bunker / cannon rushes? disrespectful tactic is not what I'm referring to, I'm referring to losing the game on purpose How do you know he "wanted" to lose that game? He obviously didnt want to play a long game, but that doesnt make him want to lose. Polt and MMA clearly didnt want to play long games either, but people arent freaking out about that. Hey Swede. I know this might sound crazy, but I don't think any single high-level player would agree with you that a Probe rush (a-move and then taking hands off keyboard) has any remote chance of winning against Nestea.
Hey korean, I know this might sound crazy but I think you are making assumptions that i feel this way b/c i am a swede, which is totaly relevant to this discussion. Stop with that bullshit.
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O.O my favorite sports writer for the Phillies watches Starcraft 2?!?!? OMG HOLY CRAP AWESOME~!
Though, that arbitrary line has never been needed to be established in Professional BW... Pro's took too much pride in their games... and when it was found that they were being insincere, they were permanently banned (See Match Fixing Scandal)
Though, it does bring up a good question: What is "required" of a Pro player in a serious game with tens of THOUSANDS of dollars on the line and tens of THOUSANDS of fans' hearts praying for a good game?
I mean... If Naniwa had done some insane 2 gate warp gate all in while floating 3k mins (Basically played horribly on purpose instead of simply 6 probe rushing) would we have been more or less angry?
I guess player have the right to play as badly as they want... but doing so has the obvious consequence of alienating them from their fanbase... or getting them blacklisted from tournaments.
I wonder when Tournaments are going to have the monetary stability and presence of mind to begin blacklisting players because they're simply BAD for their events?
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On December 13 2011 23:14 nekoconeco wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 23:10 MayorITC wrote:On December 13 2011 22:38 aderum wrote:On December 13 2011 22:37 leo23 wrote:On December 13 2011 22:34 Crashburn wrote:On December 13 2011 22:33 aderum wrote:On December 13 2011 22:31 leo23 wrote:
So do you think it's ok if Houston would have thrown a fly ball and not bat at all?
As I've said in other threads, I would have been happy if he at least done a 2 gate cheese of some sort (sending out his B team) but I think naniwa sent his double A team here. So you deside which cheese is good enough? Yeah cause that make sense... Right, that's the arbitrary line I was talking about. If we declare worker rushes a disrespectful tactic, what precedent is there to stop us from doing the same with cannon rushes, or bunker pushes, or 6 pool + spine rushes? what is the win percentage for a worker rush as opposed to a 6 pool or bunker / cannon rushes? disrespectful tactic is not what I'm referring to, I'm referring to losing the game on purpose How do you know he "wanted" to lose that game? He obviously didnt want to play a long game, but that doesnt make him want to lose. Polt and MMA clearly didnt want to play long games either, but people arent freaking out about that. Hey Swede. I know this might sound crazy, but I don't think any single high-level player would agree with you that a Probe rush (a-move and then taking hands off keyboard) has any remote chance of winning against Nestea. You cannot prove it has a absolutely no chance of succeeding therefore it is simply a bad strategy. If Naniwa had instantly left the game or had attacked his own nexus, or had not touched his keyboard at all, or had never entered the booth then you would have an argument.
Um he didn't touch his keyboard....he A-moved the drones and then took his hands off the keyboard and let them die so yeah......
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Here's a better comparison.
There's a thing called a teaching game in which the objective is to learn and grow rather than win. That' the very same reason why teams send out their B-team line-up in MLB and SC2. Naniwa's game against Nestea was driven out of anger/frustration rather than a desire to learn. You're completely missing the different intentions from the participants in your analogy.
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I think you're flat out wrong and fall on your own arguments. First off, you can't really compare team sports on the complete same level given that, well, one of them consists of a lot of players and the other just you and your opponent. Furthermore; in your example the teams still plays. And that is the main gripe. They played! Naniwa could've forfeited the game, and it would be okay, but to just straight up send your workers on attack move and take your hands off the keyboard is just downright dumb.
Furthermore, GOM probably just show the rules on the website given that those websites are purely for entertainment purposes and not for the players playing it to stay up do date. They have rules, they are written, but they are most likely not on their streaming websites.
And lastly;
Likewise, fans who showed up to that Astros-Reds game on September 21 were not owed their money back. The sponsors were not refunded ad revenue, either (as some have suggested be done with GOM). That is the risk you take as a fan when you purchase tickets, and that is the risk you take as a business when you choose to advertise. Because they fucking got to see a real game, regardless of the skills of the players, they still had a game shown to them. I don't care if you send in your b-team or c-team as long as you play the game. Why would you refund something that was played? Because the involved parties were horrible? If so I'd try to get tons of money back because of games with players I found to be horrible. No, no and no. Naniwa didn't even play a game, he rallied his workers, took his hands of his keyboard and was done with it.
Quite frankly, this post just shows lack of understanding the differences between certain things that should be obvious. I don't care if you're from ESPN, it doesn't give you any credibility whatsoever about a topic you don't understand. Even your comparison is flawed on the basic level; the game was played.
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I didn't see the game, but this is an awesome post.
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Why would Naniwa play a real game anyway? There's no way either him or Nestea would use a build they'd practiced (unless Naniwa just used the one he played against Leenock with) and give future GSL opponents another match to go through and pick apart.
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On December 13 2011 22:58 mireath wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 22:15 Crashburn wrote:
[...]
Secondly, the ire directed at Naniwa assumes a worker rush is not a valid strategy. No, a worker rush is not a high-percentage strategy, but it is non-zero, which makes it valid nonetheless. If we are to harangue Naniwa for probe-rushing, then what is to stop us from doing the same with other similarly-fateful strategies?
[...]
Well, that's the problem. This wasn't a worker rush. He took his probes crossmap, and on arrival didn't micro them the slightest. That "strategy" had exactly 0% chance of succeeding.
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On December 13 2011 23:19 Insurrectionist wrote:
Why would Naniwa play a real game anyway? There's no way either him or Nestea would use a build they'd practiced (unless Naniwa just used the one he played against Leenock with) and give future GSL opponents another match to go through and pick apart.
Wrong, Nestea was actually up all night getting ready for the match cause he wanted to play and win. He even didn't celebrate his birthday because beating Naniwa and winning the match that yes, was pointless, was still nonetheless that important to him.
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I think the fatal flaw in this assessment is the lack of regard for the cultural aspects that are in play here. When in Rome, do as the Romans, etc. I don't think the issue is Naniwa not giving a crap about the game. The issue is the lack of respect he's shown to Korean culture. What he did, from all accounts I've read, is not acceptable in Korean culture. To say that we, the foreigner community, owe a ton to Korea is a huge understatement. Sure, we can bemoan some of, what we would call, the seemingly arbitrary and esoteric views Koreans have on honor and generational respect. That said, for Naniwa to show such little regard is what is troubling.
That's just my .02.
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On December 13 2011 23:21 DFDream wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 22:58 mireath wrote:On December 13 2011 22:15 Crashburn wrote:
[...]
Secondly, the ire directed at Naniwa assumes a worker rush is not a valid strategy. No, a worker rush is not a high-percentage strategy, but it is non-zero, which makes it valid nonetheless. If we are to harangue Naniwa for probe-rushing, then what is to stop us from doing the same with other similarly-fateful strategies?
[...]
Well, that's the problem. This wasn't a worker rush. He took his probes crossmap, and on arrival didn't micro them the slightest. That "strategy" had exactly 0% chance of succeeding. Had Nestea 6pooled that would have been all Naniwa had to do to win, but Nestea didn't so therefore he lost. Sure its like a 1% chance that Nestea 6 pools but if he does Naniwa wins, he probably decided not to micro when he saw that Nestea didn't 6 pool because he knew it was pointless.
No, sir: Cancel the pool. Build drones with refund. Win.
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EPT
