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[I] PvT 3 goon rush

Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
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antrax
Profile Joined July 2005
Peru191 Posts
March 06 2008 01:27 GMT
#1
Here is an idea I had a while ago.

Goal: Attack T choke with 3 goons before his first tank, killing at least the initial group of marines to negate any rush or expo.

BO:
8 pylon
10 gateway
11 assim
13 core
1 probe for gas
14 gateway
Scout with same probe
14 pylon (better outside your main)
15 second probe for gas
15 first goon
17 third probe for gas

Continue your production as a 2 gate power goon with a delayed range.

Scouting process: For a 4 player map, send scouting probe to the closest main and your first goon to the other closest main meanwhile your next 2 goons should be directed to the center of the map, in the worse case your 3 goons will converge to the last unexplored main. Better if your scouting probe return to your base after the first exploration, you will cut some probes so every probe is important.

Comment: Based on a late scouting and a delayed gas harvesting you will have the necessary minerals to build 2 gateways earlier than usual. If your first strike is successful maintain the pressure and then expand.
I think this opening is superior against any 1 fact based build; against 2 fact you will need to be carefull with your micro but at least you are in equal position, delayed range but with more goons than usual.
The pylon outside the main is in case of a desperate battery shield defense or preventing sneaky vultures narrowing your nat entrance.
This opening works as I describe in a 9 minerals main map, for an 8 mineral main it may not work.

Here is a replay to show the execution.

http://rapidshare.com/files/97375376/iccup_3goons.rep.html

Disclaimer:
I'm more a theorycrafter than a gosu player, so please concentrate in the idea, do not start to criticize my micro, macro, apm or any other silly mistake. Ask yourself if this could work in proper hands giving advantage over the usual I-want-my-expo terran.

Questions:
Is this solid?
What counters could have it?
Suggestions?

Deep tech
xmShake
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
United States1100 Posts
March 06 2008 01:32 GMT
#2
This looks like a solid build order, although it probably would have a tough time vs more than 4+ marines on a ramp, but even then it doesn't really matter since it doesn't put you behind much if any.

Nice guide.
Giraffe
Profile Joined February 2008
10 Posts
March 06 2008 02:38 GMT
#3
Seems to be pretty solid to me, but I think more games would be needed to actually see if it is a valid build vs one fact. I think this would be a physiological problem for the T more than anything.

For counters, I don't know what the T would do, maybe bunker the ramp which would delay a tank for a little bit, and you could do an expo by then I believe, putting you ahead.

My micro brings all the Koreans to the yard.
CDRdude
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
United States5625 Posts
March 06 2008 02:45 GMT
#4
Wasn't there a blog a while back, that asked for innovative build orders so he could try them? The idea was that if you'd rather theorycraft, you could, and he'd do the playing.

Okay, I found it:
http://teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=65946

It's NonY[rc] posting it, so if he's still up for that kind of thing, you'd certainly have an expert opinion.
Force staff is the best item in the game.
rpf
Profile Blog Joined January 2007
United States2705 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-03-06 03:19:22
March 06 2008 02:58 GMT
#5
I just saw this done earlier.

The second gate was built at 15, not 14--not a big difference, but maybe there's some logic to it. Personally, in a build where you're intentionally cutting probes, it's probably best to get that one probe earlier than later. Keep in mind that any time a probe is no mining is lost potential income.

I'd modify the build order to be:

8 pylon, 10 gate,11/12 assim, 13/14 core, 15 gate

The timing of the first goon and second pylon would have to be worked out, but I think it has good potential.

Edit: Okay, I just tried it against a computer.

The build:
- 8 pylon, scout
- 10 gate, scout
- 11 gas
- 13 core, 1 probe to gas
- 15 gate, pylon, goon, 1 probe to gas
- 17 goon, 1 probe to gas

So basically, you send your first probe to gather gas when you make your core; you send your second probe when you make your first goon; and you send your third probe when you make your second goon.

This way to don't gather much more gas than you really need.

Your first three goons come out at approximately 3:30, 3:45, and 4:00. The game I played had me across the map from the computer, and my goons arrived to his choke at approximately 4:30.

Some other thoughts:
- Cutting probes at 23 supply lets you get a fourth goon in very easily
- When your third pylon finishes, you can easily afford to upgrade range or make a robo

Edit: Replay link: http://www.battlereports.com/viewreplays.php?replaynum=32929
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." - Sigmund Freud
Ilikestarcraft
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
Korea (South)17726 Posts
March 06 2008 03:37 GMT
#6
Don't a lot of toss do a similiar build like this on longinus?
"Nana is a goddess. Or at very least, Nana is my goddess." - KazeHydra
ash.cure
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States29 Posts
March 06 2008 03:55 GMT
#7
yes but they get range before any goon
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42429 Posts
March 06 2008 03:58 GMT
#8
I've been doing this a lot on ICC with some success. I use a slight variation (2 probes on gas, first goon at 14, then probe). At D to D+ it won reliably (fonger excluded). From there on I had players who would use walling to separate my goons (a good player starts a rebuild of the wall the moment it first breaks) while killing the ones I got in with nice scv micro. I no longer scored any rush kills. However T does tend to assume they get the upper hand so I quite like to follow it with a bulldog. Last night I beat Ly.Kaiser (a top 10 Korean on ICC) with it when he pushed out, expecting to find me powering to recover from the failed rush.

It's a neat little build and destroys terrans who don't immediately know how to react to it. However its success rate drops off sharply as the skill level rises and makes hyou rely on their unforced error.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42429 Posts
March 06 2008 04:02 GMT
#9
Also rpf, it really needs to be 14 gate and pylon imo. And to the OP, I'm managing to get range after the 3rd goon without stopping production. I scout on 13 and bring the scout probe back to mine as soon as I know where they are. I do something like
14/17 goon
17/25 goon
19/25 goon
range
21/25 goon
pylon
23/25 goon

without stopping goon production at all. Given the nature of this rush and the importance of range if you hope to kill any tanks once you break in I feel that the faster range is integral to the build. It's all very well to break in but if scvtank micro means your dragoons can't kill anything it's a waste.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
LeoTheLion
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
China958 Posts
March 06 2008 05:54 GMT
#10
if terran scouts early gate/no range won't they build more marines?
Communism is not love. Communism is a hammer which we use to crush the enemy. -Chairman Mao
rushz0rz
Profile Blog Joined February 2006
Canada5300 Posts
March 06 2008 06:18 GMT
#11
i think putting 3 probes on gas right away is a bit better, getting faster range is good for breaking the wall and pissing them off if he sieges out of the longer range. scouting earlier helps, putting a pylon where his addon would go delays them, it may delay your second or third goon but its worth it, plus you can cancel once they lift off.
IntoTheRainBOw fan~
Myrmidon
Profile Blog Joined December 2004
United States9452 Posts
March 06 2008 06:40 GMT
#12
It's a build to add to your repertoire for those no ramp maps. As people are mentioning, if the Terran scouts turbo 2nd gate of course they're going to be able to react, so I think the build is questionable unless it's used a map suited for early goon harass (harass that's strong even when scouted). Cutting probes is no small matter that early in PvT, so you better make the fast goons count.
Ilikestarcraft
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
Korea (South)17726 Posts
March 06 2008 07:14 GMT
#13
This is why i go 11/11 on longinus -_-;;
"Nana is a goddess. Or at very least, Nana is my goddess." - KazeHydra
Sentenal
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States12398 Posts
March 06 2008 09:23 GMT
#14
Hmm this build seems kinda interesting. I normally do a similar build to this (or at least I think I do), but I don't cut probes in doing it. So maybe this build has faster goons than what I'm used to.
"Apparently, Sentenal is a paragon of friendship and tolerance. " - Ech0ne
axel
Profile Blog Joined March 2007
France385 Posts
March 06 2008 10:36 GMT
#15
i can have same number of goons WITH range on 1 gate only with that build :
8 pilon
9gate assim
12 core 3 in gas
and so (of course i need to cut probes)
But i dont find it very effective unless u want to break a wall without marines.
antrax
Profile Joined July 2005
Peru191 Posts
March 06 2008 12:05 GMT
#16
Nice to see comments, insights and suggestions. Now I'm at work, I'll comment more at night.

Thx for the interest
Deep tech
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42429 Posts
March 06 2008 13:07 GMT
#17
On March 06 2008 15:18 rushz0rz wrote:
i think putting 3 probes on gas right away is a bit better, getting faster range is good for breaking the wall and pissing them off if he sieges out of the longer range. scouting earlier helps, putting a pylon where his addon would go delays them, it may delay your second or third goon but its worth it, plus you can cancel once they lift off.

You're wrong about this. The earliest you can get range without making the rush worthless is after the 3rd goon. It's not gas that limits this, it's minerals. By going 3 probes on gas you actually get range slower. I don't think you quite understand this build tbh. It hits before siege mode is an issue. If he can siege up, the rush failed.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42429 Posts
March 06 2008 13:08 GMT
#18
On March 06 2008 14:54 LeoTheLion wrote:
if terran scouts early gate/no range won't they build more marines?

This doesn't matter. With decent micro 3 goons can take 5-6 marines on a ramp. The marines do nothing but buy time.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Chill
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
Calgary25977 Posts
March 06 2008 13:44 GMT
#19
Interesting. Seems viable on rampless maps.
Moderator
axel
Profile Blog Joined March 2007
France385 Posts
March 06 2008 14:10 GMT
#20
well after having tryed it 3 games i have to admit i ts really effective and good build. thanks
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