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Here is an idea I had a while ago.
Goal: Attack T choke with 3 goons before his first tank, killing at least the initial group of marines to negate any rush or expo.
BO:
8 pylon
10 gateway
11 assim
13 core
1 probe for gas
14 gateway
Scout with same probe
14 pylon (better outside your main)
15 second probe for gas
15 first goon
17 third probe for gas
Continue your production as a 2 gate power goon with a delayed range.
Scouting process: For a 4 player map, send scouting probe to the closest main and your first goon to the other closest main meanwhile your next 2 goons should be directed to the center of the map, in the worse case your 3 goons will converge to the last unexplored main. Better if your scouting probe return to your base after the first exploration, you will cut some probes so every probe is important.
Comment: Based on a late scouting and a delayed gas harvesting you will have the necessary minerals to build 2 gateways earlier than usual. If your first strike is successful maintain the pressure and then expand.
I think this opening is superior against any 1 fact based build; against 2 fact you will need to be carefull with your micro but at least you are in equal position, delayed range but with more goons than usual.
The pylon outside the main is in case of a desperate battery shield defense or preventing sneaky vultures narrowing your nat entrance.
This opening works as I describe in a 9 minerals main map, for an 8 mineral main it may not work.
Here is a replay to show the execution.
http://rapidshare.com/files/97375376/iccup_3goons.rep.html
Disclaimer:
I'm more a theorycrafter than a gosu player, so please concentrate in the idea, do not start to criticize my micro, macro, apm or any other silly mistake. Ask yourself if this could work in proper hands giving advantage over the usual I-want-my-expo terran.
Questions:
Is this solid?
What counters could have it?
Suggestions?
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This looks like a solid build order, although it probably would have a tough time vs more than 4+ marines on a ramp, but even then it doesn't really matter since it doesn't put you behind much if any.
Nice guide.
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Seems to be pretty solid to me, but I think more games would be needed to actually see if it is a valid build vs one fact. I think this would be a physiological problem for the T more than anything.
For counters, I don't know what the T would do, maybe bunker the ramp which would delay a tank for a little bit, and you could do an expo by then I believe, putting you ahead.
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Wasn't there a blog a while back, that asked for innovative build orders so he could try them? The idea was that if you'd rather theorycraft, you could, and he'd do the playing.
Okay, I found it:
http://teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=65946
It's NonY[rc] posting it, so if he's still up for that kind of thing, you'd certainly have an expert opinion.
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I just saw this done earlier.
The second gate was built at 15, not 14--not a big difference, but maybe there's some logic to it. Personally, in a build where you're intentionally cutting probes, it's probably best to get that one probe earlier than later. Keep in mind that any time a probe is no mining is lost potential income.
I'd modify the build order to be:
8 pylon, 10 gate,11/12 assim, 13/14 core, 15 gate
The timing of the first goon and second pylon would have to be worked out, but I think it has good potential.
Edit: Okay, I just tried it against a computer.
The build:
- 8 pylon, scout
- 10 gate, scout
- 11 gas
- 13 core, 1 probe to gas
- 15 gate, pylon, goon, 1 probe to gas
- 17 goon, 1 probe to gas
So basically, you send your first probe to gather gas when you make your core; you send your second probe when you make your first goon; and you send your third probe when you make your second goon.
This way to don't gather much more gas than you really need.
Your first three goons come out at approximately 3:30, 3:45, and 4:00. The game I played had me across the map from the computer, and my goons arrived to his choke at approximately 4:30.
Some other thoughts:
- Cutting probes at 23 supply lets you get a fourth goon in very easily
- When your third pylon finishes, you can easily afford to upgrade range or make a robo
Edit: Replay link: http://www.battlereports.com/viewreplays.php?replaynum=32929
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Don't a lot of toss do a similiar build like this on longinus?
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yes but they get range before any goon
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United States42429 Posts
I've been doing this a lot on ICC with some success. I use a slight variation (2 probes on gas, first goon at 14, then probe). At D to D+ it won reliably (fonger excluded). From there on I had players who would use walling to separate my goons (a good player starts a rebuild of the wall the moment it first breaks) while killing the ones I got in with nice scv micro. I no longer scored any rush kills. However T does tend to assume they get the upper hand so I quite like to follow it with a bulldog. Last night I beat Ly.Kaiser (a top 10 Korean on ICC) with it when he pushed out, expecting to find me powering to recover from the failed rush.
It's a neat little build and destroys terrans who don't immediately know how to react to it. However its success rate drops off sharply as the skill level rises and makes hyou rely on their unforced error.
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United States42429 Posts
Also rpf, it really needs to be 14 gate and pylon imo. And to the OP, I'm managing to get range after the 3rd goon without stopping production. I scout on 13 and bring the scout probe back to mine as soon as I know where they are. I do something like
14/17 goon
17/25 goon
19/25 goon
range
21/25 goon
pylon
23/25 goon
without stopping goon production at all. Given the nature of this rush and the importance of range if you hope to kill any tanks once you break in I feel that the faster range is integral to the build. It's all very well to break in but if scvtank micro means your dragoons can't kill anything it's a waste.
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if terran scouts early gate/no range won't they build more marines?
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i think putting 3 probes on gas right away is a bit better, getting faster range is good for breaking the wall and pissing them off if he sieges out of the longer range. scouting earlier helps, putting a pylon where his addon would go delays them, it may delay your second or third goon but its worth it, plus you can cancel once they lift off.
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It's a build to add to your repertoire for those no ramp maps. As people are mentioning, if the Terran scouts turbo 2nd gate of course they're going to be able to react, so I think the build is questionable unless it's used a map suited for early goon harass (harass that's strong even when scouted). Cutting probes is no small matter that early in PvT, so you better make the fast goons count.
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This is why i go 11/11 on longinus -_-;;
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Hmm this build seems kinda interesting. I normally do a similar build to this (or at least I think I do), but I don't cut probes in doing it. So maybe this build has faster goons than what I'm used to.
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i can have same number of goons WITH range on 1 gate only with that build :
8 pilon
9gate assim
12 core 3 in gas
and so (of course i need to cut probes)
But i dont find it very effective unless u want to break a wall without marines.
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Nice to see comments, insights and suggestions. Now I'm at work, I'll comment more at night.
Thx for the interest
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United States42429 Posts
On March 06 2008 15:18 rushz0rz wrote:
i think putting 3 probes on gas right away is a bit better, getting faster range is good for breaking the wall and pissing them off if he sieges out of the longer range. scouting earlier helps, putting a pylon where his addon would go delays them, it may delay your second or third goon but its worth it, plus you can cancel once they lift off.
You're wrong about this. The earliest you can get range without making the rush worthless is after the 3rd goon. It's not gas that limits this, it's minerals. By going 3 probes on gas you actually get range slower. I don't think you quite understand this build tbh. It hits before siege mode is an issue. If he can siege up, the rush failed.
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United States42429 Posts
On March 06 2008 14:54 LeoTheLion wrote:
if terran scouts early gate/no range won't they build more marines?
This doesn't matter. With decent micro 3 goons can take 5-6 marines on a ramp. The marines do nothing but buy time.
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Calgary25977 Posts
Interesting. Seems viable on rampless maps.
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well after having tryed it 3 games i have to admit i ts really effective and good build. thanks
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EPT
