Goal: Attack T choke with 3 goons before his first tank, killing at least the initial group of marines to negate any rush or expo.
BO: 8 pylon 10 gateway 11 assim 13 core 1 probe for gas 14 gateway Scout with same probe 14 pylon (better outside your main) 15 second probe for gas 15 first goon 17 third probe for gas
Continue your production as a 2 gate power goon with a delayed range.
Scouting process: For a 4 player map, send scouting probe to the closest main and your first goon to the other closest main meanwhile your next 2 goons should be directed to the center of the map, in the worse case your 3 goons will converge to the last unexplored main. Better if your scouting probe return to your base after the first exploration, you will cut some probes so every probe is important.
Comment: Based on a late scouting and a delayed gas harvesting you will have the necessary minerals to build 2 gateways earlier than usual. If your first strike is successful maintain the pressure and then expand. I think this opening is superior against any 1 fact based build; against 2 fact you will need to be carefull with your micro but at least you are in equal position, delayed range but with more goons than usual. The pylon outside the main is in case of a desperate battery shield defense or preventing sneaky vultures narrowing your nat entrance. This opening works as I describe in a 9 minerals main map, for an 8 mineral main it may not work.
Disclaimer: I'm more a theorycrafter than a gosu player, so please concentrate in the idea, do not start to criticize my micro, macro, apm or any other silly mistake. Ask yourself if this could work in proper hands giving advantage over the usual I-want-my-expo terran.
Questions: Is this solid? What counters could have it? Suggestions?
This looks like a solid build order, although it probably would have a tough time vs more than 4+ marines on a ramp, but even then it doesn't really matter since it doesn't put you behind much if any.
Seems to be pretty solid to me, but I think more games would be needed to actually see if it is a valid build vs one fact. I think this would be a physiological problem for the T more than anything.
For counters, I don't know what the T would do, maybe bunker the ramp which would delay a tank for a little bit, and you could do an expo by then I believe, putting you ahead.
Wasn't there a blog a while back, that asked for innovative build orders so he could try them? The idea was that if you'd rather theorycraft, you could, and he'd do the playing.
The second gate was built at 15, not 14--not a big difference, but maybe there's some logic to it. Personally, in a build where you're intentionally cutting probes, it's probably best to get that one probe earlier than later. Keep in mind that any time a probe is no mining is lost potential income.
I'd modify the build order to be:
8 pylon, 10 gate,11/12 assim, 13/14 core, 15 gate
The timing of the first goon and second pylon would have to be worked out, but I think it has good potential.
Edit: Okay, I just tried it against a computer.
The build: - 8 pylon, scout - 10 gate, scout - 11 gas - 13 core, 1 probe to gas - 15 gate, pylon, goon, 1 probe to gas - 17 goon, 1 probe to gas
So basically, you send your first probe to gather gas when you make your core; you send your second probe when you make your first goon; and you send your third probe when you make your second goon.
This way to don't gather much more gas than you really need.
Your first three goons come out at approximately 3:30, 3:45, and 4:00. The game I played had me across the map from the computer, and my goons arrived to his choke at approximately 4:30.
Some other thoughts: - Cutting probes at 23 supply lets you get a fourth goon in very easily - When your third pylon finishes, you can easily afford to upgrade range or make a robo
I've been doing this a lot on ICC with some success. I use a slight variation (2 probes on gas, first goon at 14, then probe). At D to D+ it won reliably (fonger excluded). From there on I had players who would use walling to separate my goons (a good player starts a rebuild of the wall the moment it first breaks) while killing the ones I got in with nice scv micro. I no longer scored any rush kills. However T does tend to assume they get the upper hand so I quite like to follow it with a bulldog. Last night I beat Ly.Kaiser (a top 10 Korean on ICC) with it when he pushed out, expecting to find me powering to recover from the failed rush.
It's a neat little build and destroys terrans who don't immediately know how to react to it. However its success rate drops off sharply as the skill level rises and makes hyou rely on their unforced error.
Also rpf, it really needs to be 14 gate and pylon imo. And to the OP, I'm managing to get range after the 3rd goon without stopping production. I scout on 13 and bring the scout probe back to mine as soon as I know where they are. I do something like 14/17 goon 17/25 goon 19/25 goon range 21/25 goon pylon 23/25 goon
without stopping goon production at all. Given the nature of this rush and the importance of range if you hope to kill any tanks once you break in I feel that the faster range is integral to the build. It's all very well to break in but if scvtank micro means your dragoons can't kill anything it's a waste.
i think putting 3 probes on gas right away is a bit better, getting faster range is good for breaking the wall and pissing them off if he sieges out of the longer range. scouting earlier helps, putting a pylon where his addon would go delays them, it may delay your second or third goon but its worth it, plus you can cancel once they lift off.
It's a build to add to your repertoire for those no ramp maps. As people are mentioning, if the Terran scouts turbo 2nd gate of course they're going to be able to react, so I think the build is questionable unless it's used a map suited for early goon harass (harass that's strong even when scouted). Cutting probes is no small matter that early in PvT, so you better make the fast goons count.
Hmm this build seems kinda interesting. I normally do a similar build to this (or at least I think I do), but I don't cut probes in doing it. So maybe this build has faster goons than what I'm used to.
i can have same number of goons WITH range on 1 gate only with that build : 8 pilon 9gate assim 12 core 3 in gas and so (of course i need to cut probes) But i dont find it very effective unless u want to break a wall without marines.
On March 06 2008 15:18 rushz0rz wrote: i think putting 3 probes on gas right away is a bit better, getting faster range is good for breaking the wall and pissing them off if he sieges out of the longer range. scouting earlier helps, putting a pylon where his addon would go delays them, it may delay your second or third goon but its worth it, plus you can cancel once they lift off.
You're wrong about this. The earliest you can get range without making the rush worthless is after the 3rd goon. It's not gas that limits this, it's minerals. By going 3 probes on gas you actually get range slower. I don't think you quite understand this build tbh. It hits before siege mode is an issue. If he can siege up, the rush failed.
During one of the Bnet Attack programs, a Terran (FBH I think) fell to this build on longinus. Although I think FBH made mistake(s) during the game, it can be really surprising. The Bnet player almost killed the 1st tank, broke depot, and followed with contious goon harass then later to DTs. I'll post the link to youtube when I get access to it.
On March 07 2008 01:41 GrandInquisitor wrote: Is this meaningfully different from:
8 pylon 10 gate 12 gas 13 core (scout) Cut probes at 15 15 gate 15 goon 17 range 17 pylon 17 2goons 21 pylon 21 2goons
etc. (it could be 15 goon 17 range 17 gate, i don't quite recall the order of goon/range/gate after you stop probes, but it's fairly obvious in game)
That build will not effectively isolate marines from the tank and will therefore not be able to successfully rush on a ramp map. You can harass the marines a little with 1-2 dragoons but to force a ramp against 5 or so marines you need 3. Your build has faster range and a much slower 3rd dragoon. This is hugely significant. Your build is perhaps better for longinus when you want to be hitting that depot and then bursting in with range and ganking the tank. On a ramp map your build will find itself with 3 goon against 5 marines and a tank with a ramp. So yeah, it's hugely different. One is mass -> range, the other range -> mass.
On March 06 2008 22:07 Kwark wrote: It hits before siege mode is an issue. If he can siege up, the rush failed.
If you don't have range they can just micro there tanks behind their wall can they not? Goons are kind of dumb on this issue..so would you say then that this rush only works against non wall terrans?
Well once you are up the ramp you work on killing the depot. At the very least if T does outmicro you you will be able to score SCV kills, massively slowing their first move (be it expo or attack) and that gives you the advantage and really thats all you want out of your opener (winning is a bonus but no opener is a garunteed win as everyone knows ==)
Nice to see positive comments for the idea, specially rpf and Kwark for contributions. their posts explain pretty much the intention and circumstances of the move.
Interesting thing that you see this BO or a very close one executed for other players, I don't know if I invented this opening or not the truth is that I prepared this build on my own for Nazgul when he was representing TL in that Blizzard Event named Sandlot and he was about to face a korean on Neo Forte. I pm'd FrozenArbiter offering my contribution but Nazgul had his builds already prepared, so nothing happened. Then I tested it extensively in PGTour with good results overall. I planned to post it here at TL, but little after I stopped to play for more than 1 year so I never posted anything. Now I have more free time so I restart with my old passion, I supposed is in my genes to play and now here I am, rusty but having some fun .
Addition: Use the scouting probe to build a battery shield in terran's nat to apply extra pressure. (Testing in process)
It's all for now, remember P players try it and come back with more feedback.
wont work at all vs a decent player. you need to stay focused on what comes next. I mean, goons without range is such a poor investment that you can ignore even making them.
Even though you will have 3 goons at a very early stage of the game, even before the first tank is done, it wont make much difference. And it doesnt matter if the map is rampless or not.
With a few marines and perhaps 3-4 scvs he will make enough dmg until the first tank is out that you will get your ass handed to you. And after that, even though the terran might be a little behind, he's not nearly as behind as yourself.
The only time this would work vs a decent player is if your first scout is really early and you're a master of harassment.
(Keep in mind that more and more often you play without the latency now adays, and then range becomes even more effective to use.)
It could actually be effective with these new age terrans who cut corners like a motherfucker. I know for a fact when i TvP I make sure to make as little defense before my CC as i can. I will do 1 fact FD but only make like 1 marine and get my CC before my first tank (Oo). So if you can abuse these corners being cut it is a very strong build. I am always scared that they will just walk up my ramp with some goons when i do this, but it pays off for me in the end. The build would be great to force the T to be safe lol.
LOL, Daze that is the subtle TL touch I missed so much. If something is approved it has to be fucking good and maybe pro-made, anything else is bullshit, right?.
The goal is to deny rush or expo, I think that is accomplished. Who has more advantage when the expo is delayed for both T or P?
On March 07 2008 00:29 Wala.Revolution wrote: During one of the Bnet Attack programs, a Terran (FBH I think) fell to this build on longinus. Although I think FBH made mistake(s) during the game, it can be really surprising. The Bnet player almost killed the 1st tank, broke depot, and followed with contious goon harass then later to DTs. I'll post the link to youtube when I get access to it.
<3
The main reason the goons did so much was because he manner pyloned fbh's factory so he had to lift to make a shop which delayed his tech a lot.
On March 07 2008 09:48 antrax wrote: Addition: Use the scouting probe to build a battery shield in terran's nat to apply extra pressure. (Testing in process)
This one time on Longinus, against Prodigy[x], I did the build where you cut probes at 15 to get range and a second gate down, and my second pylon I built behind the T's nat minerals while scouting (so my probe disappeared and reappeared for a few moments, but not enough to be suspicious. When it finished, I built a battery, and even with tanks pounding on my goons I was able to win. He just can't do enough damage, as the battery heals injured units back up enough to take another tank hit.
If you think you can break his wall, it'll work well if you don't screw up your micro.
I tried this and it worked out beautifully against a FE from a terran (my record on US west is like 50-300 so he probably FE'd assuming I'd be horrible. Well, to be fair, I am horrible).
The thing I had trouble with though was the timing of the second pylon. You say to scout with the probe you built your second gate with at 14, and then you say to build a second pylon outside of your main at 14.
how the hell are you supposed to still be at 14, have a probe outside your main, and build a pylon, if that probe is just leaving your base after having just built a gateway, and you're already about to build another probe?
Sorry, I worded that poorly. It probably looks like I'm hostile. I'm not, this is a great build and I appreciate you putting the time into figuring it out. I'm just saying, how do you do this?
On March 06 2008 15:18 rushz0rz wrote: i think putting 3 probes on gas right away is a bit better, getting faster range is good for breaking the wall and pissing them off if he sieges out of the longer range. scouting earlier helps, putting a pylon where his addon would go delays them, it may delay your second or third goon but its worth it, plus you can cancel once they lift off.
You're wrong about this. The earliest you can get range without making the rush worthless is after the 3rd goon. It's not gas that limits this, it's minerals. By going 3 probes on gas you actually get range slower. I don't think you quite understand this build tbh. It hits before siege mode is an issue. If he can siege up, the rush failed.
i think you're quite right actually. I always seem to fail this rush with going range after the first goon, I'm going to try your build. But do you stop probes at 14 to get the faster pylon? Or do you stop at 15?
At 14 you stop probes for a moment, take a probe to build the second gateway and use the same probe to scout when that probe leave your main you will have 100 minerals, so start the pylon, I do this to not move any other probe, then train another probe and then first goon.
On March 06 2008 16:14 Ilikestarcraft wrote: This is why i go 11/11 on longinus -_-;;
Why? Just wall in
It's a good build, but it's by no means "new". It works very well at lower levels but a terran with very good micro, like daze said, will make this rush completely useless. It is a good way to win a game or gain a good advantage very quickly without much risk though. If the terran doesn't make a mistake in micro you will be behind, but not by much.
13gate instead of 14 would mean faster 2nd goon though. It's a decent variation of standard play. Not much risk and can take out poorer Ts at times, like foreverwar said. It obviously has trade offs...sacrifice a bit of economy and/or scouting for faster units. The main difference with this build is that range is significantly later though, done slightly after 5min. The units are significantly faster though. With this build one has 3 goons at the time a normal p build would only have 2.
To see how the build fares better you could get a couple of gamers together, and run it vs. various tvp play to see how it goes. Could look at the rep and stats too see just how much economy is affected, etc. Easy enough.
I just played game attempting this strat..and I didi it off one gate..only 2 goon rush. It worked pretty well becasue it neutralized the marines and eliminating early push, so then I just dual expo and I was ahead whole game and it was pretty easy win. Was D+ game at iccup so maybe thats it, but it worked suprisingly well, regardless.
On March 06 2008 16:14 Ilikestarcraft wrote: This is why i go 11/11 on longinus -_-;;
Why? Just wall in
It's a good build, but it's by no means "new". It works very well at lower levels but a terran with very good micro, like daze said, will make this rush completely useless. It is a good way to win a game or gain a good advantage very quickly without much risk though. If the terran doesn't make a mistake in micro you will be behind, but not by much.
Because they always scout early with a probe before i get my wall up and manner pylon my factory so i cant make a shop and i have 3 goons harassing my wall T.T. But this is mostly because im so bad at sc haha
If it's a choke map, marines will suffice for defending choke, since goon range = marine range a good position won't allow you to attack effectively. Wise Terran will proceed with siege and expand freely.
If it isn't a choke map 15 gate, 15 pylon with probe cut, getting range and goon fast(commonly used by Faith years ago) is much more potent.
On March 08 2008 23:37 LastWish wrote: Rangeless goons are terrible for attack purposes.
If it's a choke map, marines will suffice for defending choke, since goon range = marine range a good position won't allow you to attack effectively. Wise Terran will proceed with siege and expand freely.
If it isn't a choke map 15 gate, 15 pylon with probe cut, getting range and goon fast(commonly used by Faith years ago) is much more potent.
Move forwards, press h, wait .5 seconds. Rinse and repeat. Notice that while your 3 goon stays as 3 goon their 6 marine rapidly becomes 0. The reason for this is clear. They have a combined effective firepower of about 30 (goon armour) and a combined health of 240. Their firepower decreases by 5 every time 40 damage is taken. Dragoons have a damage output of 30 and a combined health of 540. They lose 10 damage every time 180 damage is taken. You will notice that 3 dragoons can fuck up 6 marines with relative ease.
Question about the actual execution of the attack in this build:
Is it better to just go ahead and attack with your first Goon, and rally the other 2 to the Terran base, or is it best to wait until all 3 Goons are present before you go marine killing?
On March 11 2008 13:02 Sentenal wrote: Question about the actual execution of the attack in this build:
Is it better to just go ahead and attack with your first Goon, and rally the other 2 to the Terran base, or is it best to wait until all 3 Goons are present before you go marine killing?
Depends on his marine count, his micro and your micro.
I have used this on maps with ramps like Luna, Lost Temple, and Python with relative ease (as Kwark says). Given, the majority of them have been pubbies, but it doesn't mean it's completely worthless against better players or non-ramp maps.
It's kind of amusing considering I've always thought it was a well-known, highly used build, only to find out now that it's not.
On March 06 2008 16:14 Ilikestarcraft wrote: This is why i go 11/11 on longinus -_-;;
Why? Just wall in
It's a good build, but it's by no means "new". It works very well at lower levels but a terran with very good micro, like daze said, will make this rush completely useless. It is a good way to win a game or gain a good advantage very quickly without much risk though. If the terran doesn't make a mistake in micro you will be behind, but not by much.
Because they always scout early with a probe before i get my wall up and manner pylon my factory so i cant make a shop and i have 3 goons harassing my wall T.T. But this is mostly because im so bad at sc haha
I'm wondering what to do when the terran brings two SCVs to the ramp and moves his barracks over his SCVs. Since you cant target the SCVs the rush is useless. This has happened to me several times and is really quite frustrating.
well i think it all depends on what map you are playing.. if longinus then a rush would be ez to pull off but any map with a ramp its harder. if i try to goon rush i wuld 2 gate using this bo: 8 pylon 10 gateway (scout) 12 gas 14 core 15 gateway 15 pylon 15 goon 17 goon range and continue to pump probes goons and pylons until i decide what i want to do from there
On March 18 2008 15:20 SS[1] wrote: well i think it all depends on what map you are playing.. if longinus then a rush would be ez to pull off but any map with a ramp its harder. if i try to goon rush i wuld 2 gate using this bo: 8 pylon 10 gateway (scout) 12 gas 14 core 15 gateway 15 pylon 15 goon 17 goon range and continue to pump probes goons and pylons until i decide what i want to do from there
Yea I like this bo to..its like yo can't really go wrong. As long as you keep pumping probes/goons(usually from one gate)/pylons you can build up a solid base economy while you scout your opponent and then from there you can push solid towards whatever counter you need and you have the economy to do it, especially if you don't invest too much into a 2nd gate...and you still have a significant number of goons if you never stop pump from your one gate..and harass his timing push all the way back to your main..
On March 06 2008 14:54 LeoTheLion wrote: if terran scouts early gate/no range won't they build more marines?
This doesn't matter. With decent micro 3 goons can take 5-6 marines on a ramp. The marines do nothing but buy time.
You must be getting super duper duper lucky on the 75% hit or the Terrans youre playing don't know how to micro
Also any good Terran is gonna see you're doing this with their scout scv and bring a couple scvs to help defend if he needs to...this build is for non ramp maps, as it's very hard to hold Longinus, Tau, etc against a power goon build
I think it's also dumb that you still argue it's "relatively easy" when Response and Daze have both said it's pretty impossible on a ramp map (And I have played against Tosses doing this MANY times on ramp maps and I usually lose my rines and some scvs repairing but whatever, I get siege mode and it doesn't matter because their goons are dead/eco was cut).
EPT
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