During one of the Bnet Attack programs, a Terran (FBH I think) fell to this build on longinus. Although I think FBH made mistake(s) during the game, it can be really surprising. The Bnet player almost killed the 1st tank, broke depot, and followed with contious goon harass then later to DTs. I'll post the link to youtube when I get access to it.

BlackJack

United States10394 Posts

March 06 2008 16:40 GMT

#23

i'll look at this when I get home. great post, antrax

GrandInquisitor

New York City13113 Posts

March 06 2008 16:41 GMT

#24

Is this meaningfully different from:

8 pylon
10 gate
12 gas
13 core (scout)
Cut probes at 15
15 gate
15 goon
17 range
17 pylon
17 2goons
21 pylon
21 2goons

etc. (it could be 15 goon 17 range 17 gate, i don't quite recall the order of goon/range/gate after you stop probes, but it's fairly obvious in game)

KwarK

United States42435 Posts

March 06 2008 16:49 GMT

#25

On March 07 2008 01:41 GrandInquisitor wrote:
Is this meaningfully different from:

8 pylon
10 gate
12 gas
13 core (scout)
Cut probes at 15
15 gate
15 goon
17 range
17 pylon
17 2goons
21 pylon
21 2goons

etc. (it could be 15 goon 17 range 17 gate, i don't quite recall the order of goon/range/gate after you stop probes, but it's fairly obvious in game)

That build will not effectively isolate marines from the tank and will therefore not be able to successfully rush on a ramp map. You can harass the marines a little with 1-2 dragoons but to force a ramp against 5 or so marines you need 3. Your build has faster range and a much slower 3rd dragoon. This is hugely significant. Your build is perhaps better for longinus when you want to be hitting that depot and then bursting in with range and ganking the tank. On a ramp map your build will find itself with 3 goon against 5 marines and a tank with a ramp.
So yeah, it's hugely different. One is mass -> range, the other range -> mass.

rpf

United States2705 Posts

March 06 2008 18:44 GMT

#26

Small correction: 15 gate range goon pylon

(This is obvious in game, but it's still nice to know going into the game.)

Jaskwith

United States197 Posts

March 06 2008 19:07 GMT

#27

On March 06 2008 22:07 Kwark wrote:
It hits before siege mode is an issue. If he can siege up, the rush failed.

If you don't have range they can just micro there tanks behind their wall can they not? Goons are kind of dumb on this issue..so would you say then that this rush only works against non wall terrans?

MiniRoman

Canada3953 Posts

March 06 2008 22:28 GMT

#28

Well once you are up the ramp you work on killing the depot. At the very least if T does outmicro you you will be able to score SCV kills, massively slowing their first move (be it expo or attack) and that gives you the advantage and really thats all you want out of your opener (winning is a bonus but no opener is a garunteed win as everyone knows ==)

antrax

Peru191 Posts

March 07 2008 00:48 GMT

#29

Nice to see positive comments for the idea, specially rpf and Kwark for contributions. their posts explain pretty much the intention and circumstances of the move.

Interesting thing that you see this BO or a very close one executed for other players, I don't know if I invented this opening or not the truth is that I prepared this build on my own for Nazgul when he was representing TL in that Blizzard Event named Sandlot and he was about to face a korean on Neo Forte. I pm'd FrozenArbiter offering my contribution but Nazgul had his builds already prepared, so nothing happened. Then I tested it extensively in PGTour with good results overall. I planned to post it here at TL, but little after I stopped to play for more than 1 year so I never posted anything. Now I have more free time so I restart with my old passion, I supposed is in my genes to play and now here I am, rusty but having some fun

.

Addition:
Use the scouting probe to build a battery shield in terran's nat to apply extra pressure. (Testing in process)

It's all for now, remember P players try it and come back with more feedback.

DaZe

Sweden2111 Posts

March 07 2008 01:05 GMT

#30

wont work at all vs a decent player. you need to stay focused on what comes next.
I mean, goons without range is such a poor investment that you can ignore even making them.

Even though you will have 3 goons at a very early stage of the game, even before the first tank is done, it wont make much difference. And it doesnt matter if the map is rampless or not.

With a few marines and perhaps 3-4 scvs he will make enough dmg until the first tank is out that you will get your ass handed to you. And after that, even though the terran might be a little behind, he's not nearly as behind as yourself.

The only time this would work vs a decent player is if your first scout is really early and you're a master of harassment.

(Keep in mind that more and more often you play without the latency now adays, and then range becomes even more effective to use.)

Hypnosis

United States2061 Posts

March 07 2008 01:15 GMT

#31

It could actually be effective with these new age terrans who cut corners like a motherfucker. I know for a fact when i TvP I make sure to make as little defense before my CC as i can. I will do 1 fact FD but only make like 1 marine and get my CC before my first tank (Oo). So if you can abuse these corners being cut it is a very strong build. I am always scared that they will just walk up my ramp with some goons when i do this, but it pays off for me in the end. The build would be great to force the T to be safe lol.

naventus

United States1337 Posts

March 07 2008 01:42 GMT

#32

Why not a zeal, and then fast ranged goons?

A wall is going to be disastrous for either build - but that zeal is going to be pretty dangerous regardless at lower levels.

antrax

Peru191 Posts

March 07 2008 02:03 GMT

#33

LOL, Daze that is the subtle TL touch I missed so much. If something is approved it has to be fucking good and maybe pro-made, anything else is bullshit, right?.

The goal is to deny rush or expo, I think that is accomplished. Who has more advantage when the expo is delayed for both T or P?

Ilikestarcraft

Korea (South)17726 Posts

March 07 2008 02:55 GMT

#34

On March 07 2008 00:29 Wala.Revolution wrote:
During one of the Bnet Attack programs, a Terran (FBH I think) fell to this build on longinus. Although I think FBH made mistake(s) during the game, it can be really surprising. The Bnet player almost killed the 1st tank, broke depot, and followed with contious goon harass then later to DTs. I'll post the link to youtube when I get access to it.

<3

The main reason the goons did so much was because he manner pyloned fbh's factory so he had to lift to make a shop which delayed his tech a lot.

KwarK

United States42435 Posts

March 07 2008 05:53 GMT

#35

On March 07 2008 10:42 naventus wrote:
Why not a zeal, and then fast ranged goons?

A wall is going to be disastrous for either build - but that zeal is going to be pretty dangerous regardless at lower levels.

You get 3 goons up that ramp smashing the wall long before the tank arrives. He has to repair it at the cost of mining time and scvs.

EmeraldSparks

United States1451 Posts

March 07 2008 06:23 GMT

#36

If your goons are at the top of the ramp, couldn't terran pull SCVs / lift rax and trap the dragoons on the ramp?

fonger

United Kingdom1218 Posts

March 07 2008 07:14 GMT

#37

If the Terran could come up with some way to force the Protoss to look away from his monitor for 10 seconds, yeah.

rpf

United States2705 Posts

March 07 2008 15:49 GMT

#38

On March 07 2008 09:48 antrax wrote:
Addition:
Use the scouting probe to build a battery shield in terran's nat to apply extra pressure. (Testing in process)

This one time on Longinus, against Prodigy[x], I did the build where you cut probes at 15 to get range and a second gate down, and my second pylon I built behind the T's nat minerals while scouting (so my probe disappeared and reappeared for a few moments, but not enough to be suspicious. When it finished, I built a battery, and even with tanks pounding on my goons I was able to win. He just can't do enough damage, as the battery heals injured units back up enough to take another tank hit.

If you think you can break his wall, it'll work well if you don't screw up your micro.

-orb-

United States5770 Posts

March 07 2008 17:21 GMT

#39

I tried this and it worked out beautifully against a FE from a terran (my record on US west is like 50-300 so he probably FE'd assuming I'd be horrible. Well, to be fair, I am horrible).

The thing I had trouble with though was the timing of the second pylon. You say to scout with the probe you built your second gate with at 14, and then you say to build a second pylon outside of your main at 14.

how the hell are you supposed to still be at 14, have a probe outside your main, and build a pylon, if that probe is just leaving your base after having just built a gateway, and you're already about to build another probe?

Sorry, I worded that poorly. It probably looks like I'm hostile. I'm not, this is a great build and I appreciate you putting the time into figuring it out. I'm just saying, how do you do this?

rushz0rz

Canada5300 Posts

March 07 2008 17:56 GMT

#40

On March 06 2008 22:07 Kwark wrote:

Show nested quote +

You're wrong about this. The earliest you can get range without making the rush worthless is after the 3rd goon. It's not gas that limits this, it's minerals. By going 3 probes on gas you actually get range slower. I don't think you quite understand this build tbh. It hits before siege mode is an issue. If he can siege up, the rush failed.

i think you're quite right actually. I always seem to fail this rush with going range after the first goon, I'm going to try your build. But do you stop probes at 14 to get the faster pylon? Or do you stop at 15?