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axel
France385 Posts
On March 06 2008 22:08 Kwark wrote: This doesn't matter. With decent micro 3 goons can take 5-6 marines on a ramp. The marines do nothing but buy time. and yes kwark is true about marines (sorry for double post) | ||
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Wala.Revolution
7584 Posts
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BlackJack
United States10574 Posts
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
8 pylon 10 gate 12 gas 13 core (scout) Cut probes at 15 15 gate 15 goon 17 range 17 pylon 17 2goons 21 pylon 21 2goons etc. (it could be 15 goon 17 range 17 gate, i don't quite recall the order of goon/range/gate after you stop probes, but it's fairly obvious in game) | ||
KwarK
United States43352 Posts
On March 07 2008 01:41 GrandInquisitor wrote: Is this meaningfully different from: 8 pylon 10 gate 12 gas 13 core (scout) Cut probes at 15 15 gate 15 goon 17 range 17 pylon 17 2goons 21 pylon 21 2goons etc. (it could be 15 goon 17 range 17 gate, i don't quite recall the order of goon/range/gate after you stop probes, but it's fairly obvious in game) That build will not effectively isolate marines from the tank and will therefore not be able to successfully rush on a ramp map. You can harass the marines a little with 1-2 dragoons but to force a ramp against 5 or so marines you need 3. Your build has faster range and a much slower 3rd dragoon. This is hugely significant. Your build is perhaps better for longinus when you want to be hitting that depot and then bursting in with range and ganking the tank. On a ramp map your build will find itself with 3 goon against 5 marines and a tank with a ramp. So yeah, it's hugely different. One is mass -> range, the other range -> mass. | ||
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rpf
United States2705 Posts
On March 07 2008 01:41 GrandInquisitor wrote: Is this meaningfully different from: 8 pylon 10 gate 12 gas 13 core (scout) Cut probes at 15 15 gate 15 goon 17 range 17 pylon 17 2goons 21 pylon 21 2goons etc. (it could be 15 goon 17 range 17 gate, i don't quite recall the order of goon/range/gate after you stop probes, but it's fairly obvious in game) Small correction: 15 gate range goon pylon (This is obvious in game, but it's still nice to know going into the game.) | ||
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Jaskwith
United States197 Posts
On March 06 2008 22:07 Kwark wrote: It hits before siege mode is an issue. If he can siege up, the rush failed. If you don't have range they can just micro there tanks behind their wall can they not? Goons are kind of dumb on this issue..so would you say then that this rush only works against non wall terrans? | ||
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MiniRoman
Canada3953 Posts
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antrax
Peru191 Posts
Interesting thing that you see this BO or a very close one executed for other players, I don't know if I invented this opening or not the truth is that I prepared this build on my own for Nazgul when he was representing TL in that Blizzard Event named Sandlot and he was about to face a korean on Neo Forte. I pm'd FrozenArbiter offering my contribution but Nazgul had his builds already prepared, so nothing happened. Then I tested it extensively in PGTour with good results overall. I planned to post it here at TL, but little after I stopped to play for more than 1 year so I never posted anything. Now I have more free time so I restart with my old passion, I supposed is in my genes to play and now here I am, rusty but having some fun  .Addition: Use the scouting probe to build a battery shield in terran's nat to apply extra pressure. (Testing in process) It's all for now, remember P players try it and come back with more feedback. | ||
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DaZe
Sweden2111 Posts
I mean, goons without range is such a poor investment that you can ignore even making them. Even though you will have 3 goons at a very early stage of the game, even before the first tank is done, it wont make much difference. And it doesnt matter if the map is rampless or not. With a few marines and perhaps 3-4 scvs he will make enough dmg until the first tank is out that you will get your ass handed to you. And after that, even though the terran might be a little behind, he's not nearly as behind as yourself. The only time this would work vs a decent player is if your first scout is really early and you're a master of harassment. (Keep in mind that more and more often you play without the latency now adays, and then range becomes even more effective to use.) | ||
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Hypnosis
United States2061 Posts
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naventus
United States1337 Posts
A wall is going to be disastrous for either build - but that zeal is going to be pretty dangerous regardless at lower levels. | ||
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antrax
Peru191 Posts
The goal is to deny rush or expo, I think that is accomplished. Who has more advantage when the expo is delayed for both T or P? | ||
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Ilikestarcraft
Korea (South)17732 Posts
On March 07 2008 00:29 Wala.Revolution wrote: During one of the Bnet Attack programs, a Terran (FBH I think) fell to this build on longinus. Although I think FBH made mistake(s) during the game, it can be really surprising. The Bnet player almost killed the 1st tank, broke depot, and followed with contious goon harass then later to DTs. I'll post the link to youtube when I get access to it. <3 The main reason the goons did so much was because he manner pyloned fbh's factory so he had to lift to make a shop which delayed his tech a lot. | ||
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KwarK
United States43352 Posts
On March 07 2008 10:42 naventus wrote: Why not a zeal, and then fast ranged goons? A wall is going to be disastrous for either build - but that zeal is going to be pretty dangerous regardless at lower levels. You get 3 goons up that ramp smashing the wall long before the tank arrives. He has to repair it at the cost of mining time and scvs. | ||
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EmeraldSparks
United States1451 Posts
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fonger
United Kingdom1218 Posts
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rpf
United States2705 Posts
On March 07 2008 09:48 antrax wrote: Addition: Use the scouting probe to build a battery shield in terran's nat to apply extra pressure. (Testing in process) This one time on Longinus, against Prodigy[x], I did the build where you cut probes at 15 to get range and a second gate down, and my second pylon I built behind the T's nat minerals while scouting (so my probe disappeared and reappeared for a few moments, but not enough to be suspicious. When it finished, I built a battery, and even with tanks pounding on my goons I was able to win. He just can't do enough damage, as the battery heals injured units back up enough to take another tank hit. If you think you can break his wall, it'll work well if you don't screw up your micro. | ||
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-orb-
United States5770 Posts
The thing I had trouble with though was the timing of the second pylon. You say to scout with the probe you built your second gate with at 14, and then you say to build a second pylon outside of your main at 14. how the hell are you supposed to still be at 14, have a probe outside your main, and build a pylon, if that probe is just leaving your base after having just built a gateway, and you're already about to build another probe? Sorry, I worded that poorly. It probably looks like I'm hostile. I'm not, this is a great build and I appreciate you putting the time into figuring it out. I'm just saying, how do you do this? | ||
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rushz0rz
Canada5300 Posts
On March 06 2008 22:07 Kwark wrote: You're wrong about this. The earliest you can get range without making the rush worthless is after the 3rd goon. It's not gas that limits this, it's minerals. By going 3 probes on gas you actually get range slower. I don't think you quite understand this build tbh. It hits before siege mode is an issue. If he can siege up, the rush failed. i think you're quite right actually. I always seem to fail this rush with going range after the first goon, I'm going to try your build. But do you stop probes at 14 to get the faster pylon? Or do you stop at 15? | ||
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