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I've noticed that most of the discussion on here is about what Blizzard should do to fix X and fix Y.
Due to all of my friends having moved on to other games, I find myself with nowhere to discuss simple strategies or ask questions about the current game. I'm looking for more of a "How do I handle mass early widow mines?" rather than "Widow mines OP, Blizzard please nerf."
So please use this thread to ask questions and discuss simple strategies (not looking for in-depth guides here), and again please refrain from any "future talk" in this thread, ie. requesting nerfs or other changes to the game.
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Why does 3/3 air from double spiqre broods and 8 infestors lose to 3/3 mech with unseiged tanks, thors, vikings, hellbats?
Hellbats killing all these broodlings is such a huge difference lol... I had a 160 supply army of pure gas units, i fought on creep, had good fungals, had 10 spines with the attack and he just A+moved and rolled over me  . We both had decent splits of air units so splash wasnt the issue.
Hellbat makes mech very strong vs broodlord, deal with broodlings super well and thats the majority of the damage. In the future I might make like 20 supply of banelings to run into the hellbats and clumped tanks/thors. Theyre very supply efficient so that might work out, ill have 3/3 melee anyhow.
So yea be careful when u go brood vs terran hellbats super good, although mines are useless vs brood if you have a few overseers follow ur army.
Best response? is it banelings? Hes a goner if he tries to siege his tanks, i can pull back banelings easily.
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On October 26 2012 08:48 TheGreenMachine wrote:Why does 3/3 air from double spiqre broods and 8 infestors lose to 3/3 mech with unseiged tanks, thors, vikings, hellbats? Hellbats killing all these broodlings is such a huge difference lol... I had a 160 supply army of pure gas units, i fought on creep, had good fungals, had 10 spines with the attack and he just A+moved and rolled over me . We both had decent splits of air units so splash wasnt the issue. Hellbat makes mech very strong vs broodlord, deal with broodlings super well and thats the majority of the damage. In the future I might make like 20 supply of banelings to run into the hellbats and clumped tanks/thors. Theyre very supply efficient so that might work out, ill have 3/3 melee anyhow. So yea be careful when u go brood vs terran hellbats super good, although mines are useless vs brood if you have a few overseers follow ur army. Best response? is it banelings? Hes a goner if he tries to siege his tanks, i can pull back banelings easily.
That's really interesting. I haven't come across this before. Making sure you are attacking the thors, and the fact that hellions are 2 supply, isn't that enough? Do you have a replay of this?
I fear raven viking alot more than hellbats in that scenario.
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After watching the game most of my flaw was not pressing the advantage when I could have. Also I had no infestors for the fight in question, it was just after a remax and infestors would have helped deal.
Also 1 fight i was max he was 160 supply i could have kept pushing but i had no spines to back me up, oh well i will changeling scout better awareness next time.
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What do you guys think about swarm hosts in ZvZ? Ive dropped banelings on them when i encounter it, but almost nobody is going swarm host against me.
Maybe swarmhost could be useful as a stepping stone to ultras?
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On October 27 2012 06:27 FortuneSyn wrote:
What do you guys think about swarm hosts in ZvZ? Ive dropped banelings on them when i encounter it, but almost nobody is going swarm host against me.
Maybe swarmhost could be useful as a stepping stone to ultras?
I think swarm host is really good positionally maybe in combination with spine crawlers, kind of a deathball way to midgame zvz.
Lategame zvz will be insane with blinding cloud, i cant imagine roach+hydra+infested terrans all being melee units under cloud, makes such a huge dif O.O
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On October 27 2012 12:28 TheGreenMachine wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2012 06:27 FortuneSyn wrote:
What do you guys think about swarm hosts in ZvZ? Ive dropped banelings on them when i encounter it, but almost nobody is going swarm host against me.
Maybe swarmhost could be useful as a stepping stone to ultras? I think swarm host is really good positionally maybe in combination with spine crawlers, kind of a deathball way to midgame zvz. Lategame zvz will be insane with blinding cloud, i cant imagine roach+hydra+infested terrans all being melee units under cloud, makes such a huge dif O.O
How would you deal with drop play using swarmhost?
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What is the proper response to mech in ZvT?
I've been going roach/swarmhost with upgrades and then trying to transition into some semblance of a Broodlord/Viper/Infestor/Corruptor composition.
My problem is that once Mech goes 3/3, it seems like Thors suddenly become almost impossible to kill, and the Infestors get shredded by Siege fire and Hellbats. Also Raven/Vikings keeps destroying my Corruptors.
What is the late game composition I should be going for here? Should I keep Swarm Hosts in my army for late game? Exactly what proportion of my army should be what i.e. Should I be heavier on the Corruptors and not so heavy on Infestors? Should I not have more than 2 Vipers?
I'm just completely lost on what to do against Terran mech. I have a dream army of Broodlord, Corruptor, Swarm Host, Viper, Infestor but I don't know how to get to that point, nor do I feel like I'm building it right (feels like I'm too heavy on X unit and not enough of Y unit).
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I've been going swarm host/roach as well. My transitions in ZvT look like this:
Roach/host
Hydra/host
Hydra/corruptor/host
Hydra/corruptor/brood/host
I usually wait for 16-20 hosts before I begin pushing out seriously. My goal is to preserve the hosts while I cycle roaches for hydras and look for even or cost-effective trades with the mech army. Always push behind a locust wave with hydra and pull out when the locust numbers thin out.
The hosts force tanks rather than thors, so a sharp transition from hosts to broods frequently catches people off guard. If I remember, I'll sprinkle in some vipers and infestors, but so far I've found that they aren't terribly necessary unless Terran successfully transitions into air play.
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SwarmHost's generally defined role is similar to the Broodlord. It lacks Anti-air and generates "free" ground units.
ZvP: They combo with Hydralisk/Overseer or Corruptor/Overseer quite well to snipe the obs of a Protoss. Watch out for Storms/Archons, and I'd suggest splitting your swarm hosts before burrow. The Corruptor is better so push for hive still, although its tempting to just transfer into BL/Corrupter. The MSC spell detection could provide the Toss with enough detection that you'll need to pepper in some sacrificial units as well. "Kamblings" (for ZvP as well) has it correct that your should push behind the wave and look for cost effective/important kills.
ZvT: They could provide cover fire for Mines/Tanks but I've yet to see them used to really break a position rather then creating one. (Spines/Creep Colony and with units doing DPS behind the locusts although a composition is as concrete ZvT with hosts). Typically you'll wear them down slowly if contained, and not allowed to flank/expansion kill.
ZvZ: The hosts are not so common likely from Banelings, however due to Creep speed being commonly used with Swarm host a Zerg opponent can commonly flank the swarm host with an Overseer. I've yet to see Swarmhost in the lategame ZvZ. Probably since Zerg can choose the BL over the Host late game.
Overall: I think, it'd be cool and although difficult, for the Swarmhost to be used more for Map Control/Vision and maybe even Expansion denial. Since range could hide them from a counter offensive on them. This will begin if people begin use their rally points in unexpected ways and splitting their... for the time being its just a Lair BL /w different upgrades.
The fatal flaws of the Widow Mines are clear once practiced (practice, practice) against.
1. Low DPS (sacrifice a Zergling/Drone, the spore takes 30 seconds to create whereas another rocket 40 seconds)
2. Low Range (Hydralisk can snipe them when detected)
3. 3 second burrow time. If they move outside of your Spore range, just be ready to catch them running back in... that is, if your still waiting on Lair. (Overseer) If you find that the Mines are an early weak spot for you, scout for gas consumption. There is the odd case with Reapers (more common for TvT), but typically early gas (ZvT) would suggest either 'Mech'/Banshee harass (if they'll harass). This means a Spore and a decent number of queens (4-ish) for the Hellion/Mine combination should like end up being a worth while investment.
ZvZ with the Spine Crawler not allowing a runby, this could be the largest change to this mirror match. A "Too Slow" supply depot. However early ling pressure is very common in ZvZ this could change the match up substantially as the Turtle-zerg was rather powerful with the release of HoTS.
My question: Does anyone have experience lategame against a Turtle Zerg? The Viper seems slightly more defensive (albeit overall balanced offensively/defensively quite well as a unit); however it's that along with Spores/Spines the Zerg units are defensively strong.... would early expansions and expensive Nydus canal / Drop play the solution to a turtling Zerg?
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On October 26 2012 08:48 TheGreenMachine wrote:Why does 3/3 air from double spiqre broods and 8 infestors lose to 3/3 mech with unseiged tanks, thors, vikings, hellbats? Hellbats killing all these broodlings is such a huge difference lol... I had a 160 supply army of pure gas units, i fought on creep, had good fungals, had 10 spines with the attack and he just A+moved and rolled over me . We both had decent splits of air units so splash wasnt the issue. Hellbat makes mech very strong vs broodlord, deal with broodlings super well and thats the majority of the damage. In the future I might make like 20 supply of banelings to run into the hellbats and clumped tanks/thors. Theyre very supply efficient so that might work out, ill have 3/3 melee anyhow. So yea be careful when u go brood vs terran hellbats super good, although mines are useless vs brood if you have a few overseers follow ur army. Best response? is it banelings? Hes a goner if he tries to siege his tanks, i can pull back banelings easily.
Yes. I just go ultras nowadays. Ultras are great with burrow charge, and they tear mech armies to shreds if they aren't crazy thor heavy. Also, theyre fun, and i'm insanely happy to see them being highly viable in all matchups now. BL/infestor is stronger, but not against an army with that many hellbats. Toss also always opens stargate in beta, so BL's are useless there. And dont go banes. If they have tanks, making banes is just terrible, terrible damage.
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Has anyone found a good use for Swarm Hosts in ZvT? I feel that siege tanks counter them to the point of making them unviable.
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On October 29 2012 22:50 Catatafish wrote:
Has anyone found a good use for Swarm Hosts in ZvT? I feel that siege tanks counter them to the point of making them unviable.
Swarm hosts force tanks which allows you to pressure Terran (i.e., keep them from hitting a 2/2 timing) while you go for broods which coincidentally punishes an over-commitment to tanks well. Hydra/host trades fairly well, even if there's a critical mass of tanks, as long as you are using your locusts as bait and pulling out once they're dead.
Example first person vod (cue to the 19 minute mark if the timestamp doesn't work):
http://www.twitch.tv/kambingsc/b/337145444?t=19m0s
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On October 27 2012 06:27 FortuneSyn wrote:
What do you guys think about swarm hosts in ZvZ? Ive dropped banelings on them when i encounter it, but almost nobody is going swarm host against me.
Maybe swarmhost could be useful as a stepping stone to ultras?
I usually make swarmhosts either for defense while i take a third, or i do a hydra/swarm host/ infestor allin. I cut on hydras and make festors if he has a lot of banes.
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On October 29 2012 23:07 Kambing wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 22:50 Catatafish wrote:
Has anyone found a good use for Swarm Hosts in ZvT? I feel that siege tanks counter them to the point of making them unviable. Swarm hosts force tanks which allows you to pressure Terran (i.e., keep them from hitting a 2/2 timing) while you go for broods which coincidentally punishes an over-commitment to tanks well. Hydra/host trades fairly well, even if there's a critical mass of tanks, as long as you are using your locusts as bait and pulling out once they're dead. Example first person vod (cue to the 19 minute mark if the timestamp doesn't work): http://www.twitch.tv/kambingsc/b/337145444?t=19m0s
Theyre amazing against bio, and with infestor support, it does just fine against mech, even tank based mech. And if you push early before its 200/200 v. 200/200 then you win.
I have a strategy where i use them as defense for fast thirds in zvz and even zvt. Its like how a terran expands with siege tanks.
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how to get a 3rd base in zvt? if he goes factory you can never know if he goes helions or mines or both. vs helions you could just go mass queen or roaches like in WoL. if you do that and he goes widow mines you are fucked since nothing from zerg outranges them AND zerg has no mobile detection. if he goes both he can protect his mines with some helions so even if you manage to get detection you trade very in efficiently since you have to send in a lot of units because some lings get killed by the helions that protect mines.
so my question is: how to get a 3rd base in ZvT vs factory builds? 1 rax FE into fac into 3rd CC or fac into CC into 3rd CC is just way ahead if zerg cant manage to get a pretty fast 3rd. (basically because all 2 base play from zerg sucks: 2 base roach ling (bling) into 3rd is dead because of mines, 2 base muta is completely dead with mines (or mutas at all are dead because of mines) + swarmhost is REALLY bad vs terra because every single terran unit is okay or awesome vs swarmhost: mines kill locusts, banshees kill hosts, BH rape locusts, helions are okay vs locusts, tanks rape locusts, MMM rapes locusts).
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On October 26 2012 00:12 SirPsychoMantis wrote:
I've noticed that most of the discussion on here is about what Blizzard should do to fix X and fix Y.
Due to all of my friends having moved on to other games, I find myself with nowhere to discuss simple strategies or ask questions about the current game. I'm looking for more of a "How do I handle mass early widow mines?" rather than "Widow mines OP, Blizzard please nerf."
So please use this thread to ask questions and discuss simple strategies (not looking for in-depth guides here), and again please refrain from any "future talk" in this thread, ie. requesting nerfs or other changes to the game.
1 Spore at natural near the hatch, 1 extra queen at natural hatch, 1-2 spines and 2-4 zerglings (1-2 larva into lings)
Things i've assumed your done are
+ Show Spoiler +
9 Overlord
15 Hatch
16 Pool
17 gas -mine to 100 then take off
17 Overlord
*2x Queens
*2x Zergling (1larva into zergling)
*Zergling Speed Asap
things i'm assuming you've not been doing
+ Show Spoiler +
*Scout at His natural to see if he exspanded, i useally scout with 13th drone out of habbit, but lings can generally see this
*poked up ramp to see his opener, 2rax, reactor? (can mean mines/hellion or combination of the 2)
*checking his units, that move
End Note's
Please provide some replays just in case it some style of terran us other hots zergs not faced yet.
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On October 31 2012 04:01 Decendos wrote:
how to get a 3rd base in zvt? if he goes factory you can never know if he goes helions or mines or both. vs helions you could just go mass queen or roaches like in WoL. if you do that and he goes widow mines you are fucked since nothing from zerg outranges them AND zerg has no mobile detection. if he goes both he can protect his mines with some helions so even if you manage to get detection you trade very in efficiently since you have to send in a lot of units because some lings get killed by the helions that protect mines.
so my question is: how to get a 3rd base in ZvT vs factory builds? 1 rax FE into fac into 3rd CC or fac into CC into 3rd CC is just way ahead if zerg cant manage to get a pretty fast 3rd. (basically because all 2 base play from zerg sucks: 2 base roach ling (bling) into 3rd is dead because of mines, 2 base muta is completely dead with mines (or mutas at all are dead because of mines) + swarmhost is REALLY bad vs terra because every single terran unit is okay or awesome vs swarmhost: mines kill locusts, banshees kill hosts, BH rape locusts, helions are okay vs locusts, tanks rape locusts, MMM rapes locusts).
With early game mine defense, you can use queens and spore crawlers. You need to prioritize creep spread in order to get spores to where they need to be. You also need to push to lair for overseers as you won't be able to be aggressive otherwise.
Swarm hosts are incredibly good against Terran. In straight up fights, the only cost-effective solution to hosts are a critical mass of tanks, something they won't have in the early and mid-games. In particular, if you get into a bad position and get contained, you can use swarm hosts to break out.
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On October 31 2012 04:16 Kambing wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 04:01 Decendos wrote:
how to get a 3rd base in zvt? if he goes factory you can never know if he goes helions or mines or both. vs helions you could just go mass queen or roaches like in WoL. if you do that and he goes widow mines you are fucked since nothing from zerg outranges them AND zerg has no mobile detection. if he goes both he can protect his mines with some helions so even if you manage to get detection you trade very in efficiently since you have to send in a lot of units because some lings get killed by the helions that protect mines.
so my question is: how to get a 3rd base in ZvT vs factory builds? 1 rax FE into fac into 3rd CC or fac into CC into 3rd CC is just way ahead if zerg cant manage to get a pretty fast 3rd. (basically because all 2 base play from zerg sucks: 2 base roach ling (bling) into 3rd is dead because of mines, 2 base muta is completely dead with mines (or mutas at all are dead because of mines) + swarmhost is REALLY bad vs terra because every single terran unit is okay or awesome vs swarmhost: mines kill locusts, banshees kill hosts, BH rape locusts, helions are okay vs locusts, tanks rape locusts, MMM rapes locusts). With early game mine defense, you can use queens and spore crawlers. You need to prioritize creep spread in order to get spores to where they need to be. You also need to push to lair for overseers as you won't be able to be aggressive otherwise. Swarm hosts are incredibly good against Terran. In straight up fights, the only cost-effective solution to hosts are a critical mass of tanks, something they won't have in the early and mid-games. In particular, if you get into a bad position and get contained, you can use swarm hosts to break out.
well yeah i tried pushing creep with spore and spine, problem is you can only get 2-3 hex forward each time so your lair is ready on 2 base anyway at the time you slowpushed creep to your 3rd.
and no: swarm hosts arent incredibly good against terran. 4 tanks kill 10 SH locusts so 12 supply vs 30 + a lot more costs. and since both are on 2 base its really bad for zerg to trade ~1:2 ressources. he can easily have 4 tanks at 9:00.
the next problem is this: you cant even use the 2 base swarmhosts offensively since you need antiair with them vs cloak banshees and dont have the money for hydras or queens + nydus.
i really dont know why zerg is the only race that doesnt get mobile detection early game like P and T. its just retarded "park 4 helions with 0 apm in front of zerg base and deny 3rd base forever" again but with mines. just make mine available at armory and reverse spore/MsC detection buffs.
btw 3 zergs in top 30 let me think that zerg gets fucked because T and P get strong early game units and Z none...
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I've had almost nothing but losses against terran lately,harass from mines and either bio or hellions is rough and terran get pretty far ahead. Any time I ever try to harass or pressure or counter terran just baseraces me and I lose. Only way I can think to effectively fight terran is after I get vipers but I'm usually dead before then or so far behind it doesn't mattter. It doesn't help that swarmhost is entirely useless againt terran either.
Oh well, at least swarmhosts stomp face in zvz and zvp so I'm fine with them being bad against terran its just that it feels like terran has a lot of hard counters to zerg units now and zerg gets no compensation, hellions make lings useless, mines make mutas worthless as well, all I get now is roaches but now terran also has mines on top of tanks so there's like no way to fight till hive.
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EPT
