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On December 08 2012 17:16 SirPsychoMantis wrote:
Has anyone tried going muta vs. T recently? I feel like widow mines make it way too risky to be aggressive with them, kind of killing their purpose. Sure you might pick off that depot, or you might just lose 10 mutas to a clump of widow mines.
EDIT: Thinking about it a bit more, what real viable strategies do we have against T now? Ling / Hydra to clear out mines? Might be ok with lair speed. Pure mutas vs mines seem like a lost cause. Infestors severely nerfed. I'm kind of at a loss for mid game strategies.
Regards zvt: To be honest i think muta is better than ever, the speed buff is really huge in zvt. You just need to get an overseer with overlord speed with it. Otherwise i was just fucked by vikings raping my overlord vision and then dropships raping me. I go for 9-16 Mutalisks with +1, while going dbl upgrades and i follow it up with hive (for ultra, viper). That works, because i spend no gas on Infestors anymore. I really feel like hydras should get even more speed on creep. I cant deal effectively with 2 dropships harassing me with the new medivac + a scary push, which is why i go muta now every game.
There are probably also some timings with hydra ling busts, but i dont like the idea too too much, light units can be countered way too well by terran atm, and hydras are still, compared to medivacs, way too slow.
Against mech roach hydra ling bane viper should work well.
Regards zvp, i like to go roach hydra (but really hydraheavy) and then scout what hes up to. In most cases you can always put some pressure on and follow it up with vipers if needbe and later ultralisks. I just hate that blizzard removed the burrowcharge, my ultras get stuck behind other units so much.. I would prefer the burrow charge in comparison to the dmgbuff, especially regarding how the infestor is now.
In zvz i go either muta ling bling, which really works now because ppl get hydra to counter mutas, or a 1-1 roach push followed up by 2-2 roach hyra on three bases, the third timing i do if needbe is ultralisk hydra. I mix in 2-3 infestors, but no vipers. I dont know tho if Viper is better, but it soakes up so much supply.
The Swarm Host seems to really suck in my opinion. In some situations theyre great, but i dont like the design as a slow siege unit at all. Furthermore, you really need commit (and probably commit to an allin) if you wanna use swarm hosts imo. I feel like Hydra/Muta based armies are the way to go atm - which i really like 
I had some success with a few 2 base containes i did in zvp. I spend all my money in swarmhosts, 1-2 overseers and queens. I like queens a lot more than curropters, theyre more flexible and a lot cheaper. If the game goes on a bit you can for sure add in some curropters/hydras too.
As a sidenote. I really would appreciate if blizzard would buff zerg drops somehow. Compared to the recent medivac and warpprism changes, zerg has the worst oppertunities to drop. And some of the zerg compositions are really immobile, so that could get some more flexibility in. I dont like being forced to go swarmhost allin or wait until t3 until i can break a turtleling opponent.
I couldnt use Hydras effeciently so far in zvt. High master (wol/hots) here
Btw, do you really feel like the hots infestor nerfs were nessecary? If we have a look at recent nasl finals, the -1 range reducement was already quite heavy. Hydras and mutas are already an option now, so why cant we get some kind of useful infestors for a third option? I dont say that just -1 range is enough, maybe they could remove the stun with a slow, or at least make the projectile faster or with longer range. Im not sure but thats the way i feel about it. Furthermore in HotS the infestor is very very fucking slow compared to the other midgamestrategies, thats another disadvantage of infestor builds too. no need to overnerf
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Has anybody found a successful way to play ZvT? I've been trying to ditch the infestor and go for roach/hydra/viper but it seems like vipers will never touch anything if terran decides to produce vikings and it's then to late to win an air battle because of the terran's upgrade advantage.
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On December 10 2012 03:33 hubschrauber wrote:
Has anybody found a successful way to play ZvT? I've been trying to ditch the infestor and go for roach/hydra/viper but it seems like vipers will never touch anything if terran decides to produce vikings and it's then to late to win an air battle because of the terran's upgrade advantage.
Not yet! Still trying different things. I really wish blizz would scrap the Swarm Host and give us a lurker. I feel liek that is what is missing from the Zerg comp. A kind of medium range siege unit with burrow would be great if it had splash. Locusts are jsut too few and far between to be effective right now.
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On December 10 2012 03:33 hubschrauber wrote:
Has anybody found a successful way to play ZvT? I've been trying to ditch the infestor and go for roach/hydra/viper but it seems like vipers will never touch anything if terran decides to produce vikings and it's then to late to win an air battle because of the terran's upgrade advantage.
Yes I win most of my zvt's. Vs mech roach/hydra/viper still beats mech very handily. Vs bio roach/ling/bane - ling/bane/ultra/viper with some hydras is very strong.
Of course for both of these compositions to work you HAVE to have good viper control. If you suck with vipers and can't use them to save your life then I am not sure, but vipers do need proper control using both the compositions I said.
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On December 10 2012 04:59 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2012 03:33 hubschrauber wrote:
Has anybody found a successful way to play ZvT? I've been trying to ditch the infestor and go for roach/hydra/viper but it seems like vipers will never touch anything if terran decides to produce vikings and it's then to late to win an air battle because of the terran's upgrade advantage. Yes I win most of my zvt's. Vs mech roach/hydra/viper still beats mech very handily. Vs bio roach/ling/bane - ling/bane/ultra/viper with some hydras is very strong. Of course for both of these compositions to work you HAVE to have good viper control. If you suck with vipers and can't use them to save your life then I am not sure, but vipers do need proper control using both the compositions I said.
What do you do when terran gets out like 5 vikings?
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On December 09 2012 12:02 SoFrOsTy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2012 10:47 NeonFox wrote:On December 09 2012 10:39 SoFrOsTy wrote:
How are you guys dealing with spider mines early game? I am finding that I can't even compete vs terran because spider mines have so much map control and deal so much damage. What unit am I supposed to use? I tried teching to hydras, but they just put me too far behind because of how gas intense they are. It depends if it is gas first mines or mines after a rax expand. I'm not sure about the first but you can deal pretty easily with the later. In fact I'm happy if I see mines coming early, it means the reactor factory time has not been used for hellions and that banshees are delayed. You can build less lings because of this, a single spore at the ramp and a single one at the third (if going for early third) and a sacrificial ling should be enough to clear the way for the queens (considering 4 queen opener, 2 queens clear mines decently fast). It's important to clear them as soon as possible, or else they can kite once hellions and banshees come. I am sorry, I should have been more clear. Past the early game.. I am finding most GM's I am facing are putting widow mines all along the path from my base to their's. It is dealign so much damage and killing entire packs of lings. I don't know what to do to combat this. The onyl 2 units I can think of that don't suicide when fighting them is the Hydra and the Queen. The Hydra is fine, except it cost too much to keep a good army comp alive that is solid vs Bio. Queens do well vs widow mines close to your base, but past that they are useless as you're not going to slow move them across the map. So what are you guys doing past 9 mins to deal with widow mines planted all over the map?
Well at that point nothing will really work other than detecting them, personnaly I use lings to clear them, I really don't like hydras in ZvT if it's not mech play and queens are too slow to be really efficient at clearing them. 25 minerals to kill the mine seems ok to me but I agree it's definitely a pain in the ass.
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On December 10 2012 05:20 hubschrauber wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2012 04:59 blade55555 wrote:On December 10 2012 03:33 hubschrauber wrote:
Has anybody found a successful way to play ZvT? I've been trying to ditch the infestor and go for roach/hydra/viper but it seems like vipers will never touch anything if terran decides to produce vikings and it's then to late to win an air battle because of the terran's upgrade advantage. Yes I win most of my zvt's. Vs mech roach/hydra/viper still beats mech very handily. Vs bio roach/ling/bane - ling/bane/ultra/viper with some hydras is very strong. Of course for both of these compositions to work you HAVE to have good viper control. If you suck with vipers and can't use them to save your life then I am not sure, but vipers do need proper control using both the compositions I said. What do you do when terran gets out like 5 vikings?
Well you should be making hydra's so just use the hydras to shoot them down and obviously be careful with vipers still. Most terrans I play get the vikings now so should always have a few hydras in your army.
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Should I be going Swarm Host+Hydra against Protoss while keeping roaches at a minimum to save gas for Vipers? Or should I just go roach hydra with Vipers and skip Swarm Hosts altogether?
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Swarm host is a wast in all match ups atm, In order to even get use out of Swarm host (Idra/LZ/ other eg zergs) all said the same thing, you must spend several thousands of gas/locust upgrade and grab a mass of them, and then you're army is lack luster cuz all your resources are going into useless swarm host which can be avoided, killed off very easy unless you have a high gas army behind that which you can't afford, even in super late game u wont have the gas for them.
Only thing pros are using Swarm host for are Nydas w0rm all ins with queen/swarm host timing similar to the Hydra/nydus timming in WOL vs protoss.
Your gas is spent better else where. Zvp most people will go roach/hydra viper vs protoss going colosi deathballs
and going infestor/roach/hydra/ultra vs zealot/archon/templar......Idra just makes like 4 or 5 vipers behind a large hydra/roach force and micro vipers vs colosi
Infestors are still needed for fungle to root archon/zealot armies, The projectile is not even noticeable its soo fast it's hard for toss to dodge.
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On December 10 2012 04:51 SoFrOsTy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2012 03:33 hubschrauber wrote:
Has anybody found a successful way to play ZvT? I've been trying to ditch the infestor and go for roach/hydra/viper but it seems like vipers will never touch anything if terran decides to produce vikings and it's then to late to win an air battle because of the terran's upgrade advantage. Not yet! Still trying different things. I really wish blizz would scrap the Swarm Host and give us a lurker. I feel liek that is what is missing from the Zerg comp. A kind of medium range siege unit with burrow would be great if it had splash. Locusts are jsut too few and far between to be effective right now.
What i do is play super aggressive. I bane bust every game, then transition into roach, then transition into muta, and then get a roach/hydra/infestor army and push out. If he holds it i leave without gg. Thats basically all you can do
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@sagefreke
From my experience, Vipers are almost always the much better choice. Unless the toss goes heavy air, an even then SH won't really be of much help
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In regards to ZvT where terran goes mech:
Can some one, such as blade maybe? :D, who is a higher level post a replay or explain HOW to go the roach hydra viper, i just feel really clunky and a little lost in when / how to transition, engage and control this army especially the viper in order to stay cost efficient.
This is already my worst match up in WoL, where i play at a masters level, but here I feel even more at a lose. Any help would be great!
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I find storm to be a pretty huge problem when going roach/hydra, especially if the game drags on and toss gets that 4th base. As storm can still be cast through the blinding cloud and splitting just isn't effective enough to still be somewhat supply efficient I seem to die as soon as there's 4-5+ storms available. Pretty hard to transition to ultras when toss is transitioning into air play too:S
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On December 10 2012 04:59 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2012 03:33 hubschrauber wrote:
Has anybody found a successful way to play ZvT? I've been trying to ditch the infestor and go for roach/hydra/viper but it seems like vipers will never touch anything if terran decides to produce vikings and it's then to late to win an air battle because of the terran's upgrade advantage. Yes I win most of my zvt's. Vs mech roach/hydra/viper still beats mech very handily. Vs bio roach/ling/bane - ling/bane/ultra/viper with some hydras is very strong. Of course for both of these compositions to work you HAVE to have good viper control. If you suck with vipers and can't use them to save your life then I am not sure, but vipers do need proper control using both the compositions I said.
I haven't had a chance to watch your stream recently, but I definitely will soon. (vs bio) How are you playing the roach/ling/bane to be able to get to late game with ultras? It feels odd, like I'm being too risky if I skip all the lair tech units.
EDIT: Also I was not really serious about playing back when reapers were good, now almost everyone I play against is doing 2 rax reaper openings. What is the proper response to this? Fast ling speed seems like you need way too many lings to take out a clump of reapers, should I just turtle up with queens?
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I literally haven't beat a Terran since the new patch and I've only beaten Protoss when they make gigantic mistakes. Right now Zerg have no way to take a safe third against Terran, and against Protoss we cannot attack until Vipers. But for the sake of being constructive instead of just lamenting the garbage patch this is, I'm curious if any masters/gm zergs are having success getting into the mid game w/o being at a disadvantage against Zerg and if any are having success with earlyish attacks against Protoss.
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Played against a couple of terrans but none have seemed that good, I think roach baneling with a few hydras to pick of medivacs when you get the chance can carry you to hive tech. Ultras with queen support is actually really good, vipers counter tanks pretty nicely if they decide to just sit in their base.
I can't seem to find a good answer to protoss late-game tho, pretty much forced to baserace when he moves out ^.^
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I have won no games against protoss. No matter what they do they win but that aside. How to you counter mass oracle (+10). they almost killed my entire worker line, then with oracle / zealot with no upgrades, killed my 2/1 roach hydra. this was of course off 2 base.
Do i have to make corruptors? I scouted with 2 ovi's but all i seen was a twilight. (they went for a DT rush but cancelled)
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On December 11 2012 02:22 SirPsychoMantis wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2012 04:59 blade55555 wrote:On December 10 2012 03:33 hubschrauber wrote:
Has anybody found a successful way to play ZvT? I've been trying to ditch the infestor and go for roach/hydra/viper but it seems like vipers will never touch anything if terran decides to produce vikings and it's then to late to win an air battle because of the terran's upgrade advantage. Yes I win most of my zvt's. Vs mech roach/hydra/viper still beats mech very handily. Vs bio roach/ling/bane - ling/bane/ultra/viper with some hydras is very strong. Of course for both of these compositions to work you HAVE to have good viper control. If you suck with vipers and can't use them to save your life then I am not sure, but vipers do need proper control using both the compositions I said. I haven't had a chance to watch your stream recently, but I definitely will soon. (vs bio) How are you playing the roach/ling/bane to be able to get to late game with ultras? It feels odd, like I'm being too risky if I skip all the lair tech units. EDIT: Also I was not really serious about playing back when reapers were good, now almost everyone I play against is doing 2 rax reaper openings. What is the proper response to this? Fast ling speed seems like you need way too many lings to take out a clump of reapers, should I just turtle up with queens?
Well I would definitely watch my stream vods as so far I haven't died to any timings while I am teching :D.
Just with roach/ling/bane I am starting my hive at like 10 minutes so if they do a huge timing vipers will be out and I will beat it back. Works great for me as I haven't had any problems ^_^.
Vs reapers you have to get roaches (in general zvt you have to now as hellbats just beat ling/bane so hard). Have 2 queens at main/natural and then when you do get roaches out you can do whatever you want with them ^^.
On December 11 2012 04:21 phrenzy wrote:
I have won no games against protoss. No matter what they do they win but that aside. How to you counter mass oracle (+10). they almost killed my entire worker line, then with oracle / zealot with no upgrades, killed my 2/1 roach hydra. this was of course off 2 base.
Do i have to make corruptors? I scouted with 2 ovi's but all i seen was a twilight. (they went for a DT rush but cancelled)
Well if you don't see it coming and you don't have queens/spores at your bases you are kinda screwed. In general zvp if you can't scout anything I would throw down blind spores. With how cheap DT shrine is and how popular stargate play is it is never a bad move to do.
Also roach/hydra can beat that but you need a lot of hydra's, if you see lots of zealots I would add banelings to the mix as well. You do not need to add corruptors, if you are going to go spire tech you might is will go muta/ling/bane.
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Cheers blade,
Yeah i had 3 spores but the 12 oracle dps is too fast/high.
And the zealot was something i just never seen, they had a tight wall and i was too pre- occupied with teh oracles i assumed this was the only thing they had going. (from the scouted dt's to the mass oracles)
I think i have to go spire if i see double stargate. 12+ oracles kill everything literally, no exaggeration, add the timewarp and zealots. Spire tech seems the only viable solution.
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For me, the problem lies more with ZvT once T gets one three bases and attacks with thors/hellbats/vikings and a couple banshees all with 3 3 upgrades obviously
I tried multi drops, ling runbys, muta harass but I always seem to die in the end. My BL and viper die in a matter of seconds against 3 3 vikings and if I go ultra vs thors it s usually not pretty.
I havent tried many hydras based builds though. Any hints on a late game army composition I d like to have against that particular T army?
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EPT
