EPTThe (HotS) Zerg Help Me Thread Beta - Page 25
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Zerum
Sweden348 Posts
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Forikorder
Canada8840 Posts
On February 17 2013 17:07 Spyridon wrote: The last 2 lategame ZvZ's I've had ended with my opponent going Ultras, and me getting Broodlords out just in the nick of time, at which he didn't have time to tech switch to take them out before they slowly moved over his base. It does seem to get to late game easier though. Mutas haven't been as efficient either, 2 Spores cover the harass perfectly, and by the time they reach critical mass you can just push their base with Hydras and they will be forced to defend. mutas are more to prevent them from getting 3 bases easily and stop temf rom ever taking a 4th plus the extra damage on spores isnt a big deal once your ball is big enough to make spores evaportate | ||
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Spyridon
United States997 Posts
On February 18 2013 02:38 Forikorder wrote: mutas are more to prevent them from getting 3 bases easily and stop temf rom ever taking a 4th plus the extra damage on spores isnt a big deal once your ball is big enough to make spores evaportate The timings on that is screwy now. By the time the Mutas are out you can easily have your bases ready, spores up, some Hydras as backup, and an upgrade lead on the Hydras at least 1/1 by then. Even if you stick to 2 bases instead of three (even though you can normally take 3 early safely) you can beat 3 bases of Mutas due to the gas difference. Just having Hydras usually discourage the Muta play and bring you ahead, and if not force an attack on the enemy and they HAVE to use the Mutas for defense, or else they lose. | ||
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reapsen
Germany559 Posts
I either end up with way to many roaches from 2 bases, that delay my muta production waaay to much. So much that it isn't even worth going mutas at all. Or i have a very weak zergling + spinecrawler defense, that can safe a lot of gas for sure, but is very risky to die against a hellbat+marine push (or drop). | ||
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Ramiz1989
12124 Posts
On February 19 2013 20:07 reapsen wrote: Has anyone found a hellbat-safe opening that transitions well into 3base muta? I either end up with way to many roaches from 2 bases, that delay my muta production waaay to much. So much that it isn't even worth going mutas at all. Or i have a very weak zergling + spinecrawler defense, that can safe a lot of gas for sure, but is very risky to die against a hellbat+marine push (or drop). Didn't try it, but maybe open with Banelings instead of Roaches? Hellbats still take extra damage from Banelings, same as Marines, since they are all light. So you can go as you described, Lings and Spine Crawlers, but add a bit of Banelings in the mix, and you can always add more if you scout the timing attack. | ||
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rustypipe
Canada206 Posts
On February 19 2013 22:59 Ramiz1989 wrote: Didn't try it, but maybe open with Banelings instead of Roaches? Hellbats still take extra damage from Banelings, same as Marines, since they are all light. So you can go as you described, Lings and Spine Crawlers, but add a bit of Banelings in the mix, and you can always add more if you scout the timing attack. I've managed to handle this with lings / banes / and spines with good creep spread. Also I've been setting up a trap where I leave enough space for their 6-8 hellions to run into my base just to get surrounded by lings / banes. Most Terran can't pass up this good opportunity and shoot for it. After the early stages I tech switch to muta to drop tank / hellbat numbers and horras as I secure a 4th and transition into swarm hosts. Swarm hosts can handle mech well as long as siege numbers are not in huge numbers. With the last transition into viper / Ultra to help pull thors and tank into locus. Its been working pretty well for the most part, still working out the exact timings tho. I find this transition better for a few reasons. 1.) Roach hydra is very good and strong in the mid game, however you have little way to reduce tank numbers if the Terran are smart, and you have little to no way to horass other then drops. Without reduction of tank numbers the end game gets ugly as a good terran will mix in a few ravens and thors with 7+ seige. The Ravens prevent hydra's from shooting cutting out a LARGE number of your DPS while siege rape your roach hydra line. 2.) If you upgrade your melee and carapace with the plan to finally transition into Ultra I find it gives more tech switch abilities. For instance since your muta will be forcing turrets and droping hellbat / tank numbers locus and ultra will be more effective in the final switch. Plus if you see the terran is going no vikings because he doesn't think a BL switch will happen you can quickly transition into Broodlords and your broodlings are 3-3 cracklings to help reduce tank numbers or break Terran defensive lines, then switch back to a ling bane ultra or whatever other composition is required. I've even had games where I had broodlord, swarmhost, ling ultra to clean up the last wave of terran units which worked out well because I was spawning a sick amount of free units  I find this effective because vs Mech there is no 1 unit composition answer per say, its about constant trading and tech switching to have the best unit composition to match his at the time. Hope this helps | ||
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SirPsychoMantis
United States180 Posts
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JDub
United States976 Posts
On February 20 2013 07:35 SirPsychoMantis wrote: Has anyone tried using the pre-lair burrow for anything yet? Even cheesy, moderately effective builds I'd be interested to hear. I have tried using it in ZvZ for a pretty lame trick -- get burrow, speedling run-by, burrow pairs of lings here and there in the corner of their base, then wait for a little bit, unburrow them, morph banelings, and blow up their drones. I don't think it's actually a good tactic at all, but it also allows you to burrow a ling at their 3rd to deny that and use burrowed banelings to defend yourself against later ling aggression. | ||
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Musicus
Germany23580 Posts
On February 20 2013 01:42 rustypipe wrote: I've managed to handle this with lings / banes / and spines with good creep spread. Also I've been setting up a trap where I leave enough space for their 6-8 hellions to run into my base just to get surrounded by lings / banes. Most Terran can't pass up this good opportunity and shoot for it. After the early stages I tech switch to muta to drop tank / hellbat numbers and horras as I secure a 4th and transition into swarm hosts. Swarm hosts can handle mech well as long as siege numbers are not in huge numbers. With the last transition into viper / Ultra to help pull thors and tank into locus. Its been working pretty well for the most part, still working out the exact timings tho. I find this transition better for a few reasons. 1.) Roach hydra is very good and strong in the mid game, however you have little way to reduce tank numbers if the Terran are smart, and you have little to no way to horass other then drops. Without reduction of tank numbers the end game gets ugly as a good terran will mix in a few ravens and thors with 7+ seige. The Ravens prevent hydra's from shooting cutting out a LARGE number of your DPS while siege rape your roach hydra line. 2.) If you upgrade your melee and carapace with the plan to finally transition into Ultra I find it gives more tech switch abilities. For instance since your muta will be forcing turrets and droping hellbat / tank numbers locus and ultra will be more effective in the final switch. Plus if you see the terran is going no vikings because he doesn't think a BL switch will happen you can quickly transition into Broodlords and your broodlings are 3-3 cracklings to help reduce tank numbers or break Terran defensive lines, then switch back to a ling bane ultra or whatever other composition is required. I've even had games where I had broodlord, swarmhost, ling ultra to clean up the last wave of terran units which worked out well because I was spawning a sick amount of free units I find this effective because vs Mech there is no 1 unit composition answer per say, its about constant trading and tech switching to have the best unit composition to match his at the time. Hope this helps Would you mind sharing a replay? I need to completely relearn zvt and your style sounds very cool. | ||
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reapsen
Germany559 Posts
On February 20 2013 07:35 SirPsychoMantis wrote: Has anyone tried using the pre-lair burrow for anything yet? Even cheesy, moderately effective builds I'd be interested to hear. If you delay a 7RR or 5RR cheese, you can boost with early burrow in ZvZ or ZvP. It gets micro intense, as you have to single burrow roaches, just like blink stalkers or in that micro trainers. | ||
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Siggeh
Norway71 Posts
How the fuck do u finish obnoxius protosses who decides to camp with 200 maxed tempest / void ray / HT army behind one million cannons in a corner????? I was so far ahead... At the end I realized he was not going to quit, he said he could kill me after some time with his tempest.... what could I do to win??? He was slowly killing my spines / spores .. I had a bank of 8k and could make the game least for like 3 more hours but decided to suicide my army and lost.. (I would have lost anyway after about 3 hours as he would chop down my stuff with his tempests) Replay: http://drop.sc/305941 I'm GM in hots, this dude was top masters.....if it matters. (Master in WoL tho) Edit: sorry if I'm being mean, but this was like the first time I was close to take down a skytoss player..... then he decides to do this shit T_T Edit2: btw anyone who suggests brood lords deserves a kick in his butt. | ||
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rustypipe
Canada206 Posts
On February 20 2013 08:41 Musicus wrote: Would you mind sharing a replay? I need to completely relearn zvt and your style sounds very cool. Sure thing, when I get home today I'll try and post a replay for you. If you play on the NA server at all let me know and I can do some custom games with people and show you. I've also been playing around with Ling, Bane > into Swarm hosts > Into Ultra Viper or other transitions when facing mech. This was due to a game where the terran went heavy mines and kept killing all my muta / lings with them. The Swarm Hosts where used specifically to just contain while I took 4th/5th and teched to ultra and other transitions required to prevent his 4th. | ||
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Merikh
United States918 Posts
On February 21 2013 04:52 Siggeh wrote: Oh my fucking GOD ! How the fuck do u finish obnoxius protosses who decides to camp with 200 maxed tempest / void ray / HT army behind one million cannons in a corner????? I was so far ahead... At the end I realized he was not going to quit, he said he could kill me after some time with his tempest.... what could I do to win??? He was slowly killing my spines / spores .. I had a bank of 8k and could make the game least for like 3 more hours but decided to suicide my army and lost.. (I would have lost anyway after about 3 hours as he would chop down my stuff with his tempests) Replay: http://drop.sc/305941 I'm GM in hots, this dude was top masters.....if it matters. (Master in WoL tho) Edit: sorry if I'm being mean, but this was like the first time I was close to take down a skytoss player..... then he decides to do this shit T_T Edit2: btw anyone who suggests brood lords deserves a kick in his butt. I'm no pro, but why didn't you kill him at the 15 minute mark. Only had stalkers and a handful of phoenix. Felt like ling/bane/muta should have just destroyed him. Edit: He had 4 phoenix, 21 stalkers. You had 2k minerals 1k gas. I think you could have took that. Edit: 25 minute mark he was focusing on pure tempest, you destroyede his collosus, i feel like hydra/viper/ultra should be able to deal w/ templar/stalker/tempest -> ultras to tank -> vipers to pull back tempest -> hydras clean up tempest and just keep replenishing from there. You had the bank. Edit: You seemed like you tried to do that, but corruptors get destroyed by void rays now, try hydra instead of corruptor mixed with vipers in that ultra/swarm host composition and see if that helps. | ||
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Musicus
Germany23580 Posts
On February 21 2013 05:57 rustypipe wrote: Sure thing, when I get home today I'll try and post a replay for you. If you play on the NA server at all let me know and I can do some custom games with people and show you. I've also been playing around with Ling, Bane > into Swarm hosts > Into Ultra Viper or other transitions when facing mech. This was due to a game where the terran went heavy mines and kept killing all my muta / lings with them. The Swarm Hosts where used specifically to just contain while I took 4th/5th and teched to ultra and other transitions required to prevent his 4th. Sounds good, thanks. Doing games on NA should be no problem with global play too . | ||
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Merikh
United States918 Posts
The siege tanks and widow mines that support this makes it so difficult to engage. Vipers seem difficult to use when vikings are in play and PDD vs zerg is just  .I would love to check out some replays of Z v Mech where the game goes past 30 minutes. | ||
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ThePastor
New Zealand380 Posts
On February 22 2013 18:55 Merikh wrote: Alright I'm struggling, ZvT. Anyone have any replays of terrans going mech, taking little to no damage while taking their fourth and how to deal with that mid to late game situation as a zerg when they start transitioning into skyterran? Is there a way to deal with this before bc's? The siege tanks and widow mines that support this makes it so difficult to engage. Vipers seem difficult to use when vikings are in play and PDD vs zerg is just .I would love to check out some replays of Z v Mech where the game goes past 30 minutes. I have zero replays going past 30 minutes sorry, but I find the best plan is to kill them before they get to that death ball. Generally, when I see a meching player (which I scout with early O/l speed) I will drone like a beast up to 4 base saturation asap. Upgrading roach/hydra 1+/1+. Get drops and go for a huge drop if they don't move out. As soon as the drop finishes I remax on mutas, generally at this stage they are building zero thors because of all the ground force they are dealing with. When doing the drop make sure you try to target any thors you see. After muta ball switch back again into roach/hydra if needed but tbh, all of my mech games I destroy them with this tactic. Here are two replays of me doing this strat, one of which is against a GM (if I remember correctly). http://drop.sc/306400 http://drop.sc/306399 | ||
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Neverblink
United States31 Posts
On February 22 2013 18:55 Merikh wrote: Alright I'm struggling, ZvT. Anyone have any replays of terrans going mech, taking little to no damage while taking their fourth and how to deal with that mid to late game situation as a zerg when they start transitioning into skyterran? Is there a way to deal with this before bc's? The siege tanks and widow mines that support this makes it so difficult to engage. Vipers seem difficult to use when vikings are in play and PDD vs zerg is just .I would love to check out some replays of Z v Mech where the game goes past 30 minutes. Terran is played the same way throughout and I will not switch until a better method is found. Corrupter/Hydralisk/Viper/Ling/Speed Bane's/Oversteer's Very micro intensive. Vs. Mech Corrupter/Hydralisks/Oversteer will push the Viking's back and snipe mines (Hot key together, if you need to) Viper's move in with a quick blinding cloud on tanks Speed Banes vs Hellbats When they get SkyTerran going..Corrupters with Infestors tends to work. Just make sure you position your battles well & his army is very immobile if it has Battle Cruisers. Ultralisks attacking his lines would delay his push. | ||
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learning88
United States160 Posts
So far: ZvT (4 queen) 15 hatch 16 pool 2 queens 2 queens @ ~5:00 double gas take 3rd when minerals are available upgrade: ling speed, lair, 1/1 ZvP 14 pool 16 hatch 21 hatch @ 6:00 double gas @ 7:00 evo + roach ZvZ 15 pool 16 hatch 15 ovie 15 gas | ||
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-iNko
Lithuania160 Posts
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Ramiz1989
12124 Posts
On February 23 2013 19:12 -iNko wrote: What am i supposed to max out on vs very late game t or p? Anything i throw at lategame t or p just melts doing barely any damage. I end up leaving games with 10k or more resources banked, having all tech paths all upgrades but anything i build just gets destroyed.. I feel like i just have to do some lame aggression with t1/t2 units and end the game there before it gets to late game.. Right now, every Zerg I see plays almost the same in the late game. 5-6 Ultras, a lot of Zerglings and Banelings, with few Vipers and ~10 Infestors. If he has committed a bit more to the Air(mixing Air and ground), you can add more Hydras and less Infestors. I barely see people using Brood Lords these days(to some effect), but you have to be able to re-max. Zerg is a lot more like in the Brood War days, where you aren't using the Deathball, but a tons of cheaper units(except the Ultras), where you throw them at the enemy to be able to deal damage, and then try to re-max. About Skytoss, you can't really do much. :/ | ||
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