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Mod Note: This is a fantastic article. It may look a bit tl;dr at first, but i really encourage you to sit down and read through when you get a chance. Raises a lot of interesting questions. - Kennigit
http://shoryuken.com/2011/12/12/guest-editorial-momentum-matters-a-historical-perspective-on-the-fgc-and-esports-communities-2/#disqus_thread
A description of the article: "Fighting game commentator Ultradavid has written an incredibly in-depth piece on the origins of fighting game culture and how it compares to that of other gaming communities. It’s a thought-provoking examination of how we got to where we are, and potentially where we are going in the future"
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As someone interested in competitive gaming and "esports" in general, this is a beautiful read by one of the figure-heads from the FGC (Fighting Game Community) named UltraDavid.
UltraDavid is a veteran commentator of the FGC with a firm grasp on origins of his community. He's a lawyer and viewed as one of the more "successful" people involved in their community. He also expresses his views on the ESPORTS movement of StarCraft 2 compared to their own competitive gaming scene.
In fact, the entire basis of this article compares every aspect of the "other" most popular competitive gaming scene, and in some ways, how they've learned from the SC2 community in terms of dealing with the business side of things.
I highly recommend everyone to take a moment to read this, it's kind of sobering to see how lucky we (the StarCraft community) are to have had as many talented and business-savvy community members contribute to the movement, as well as a Game Developer that has built and supported this community from the ground-up.
He even goes on to mention that Fighting Games "are not esports" and would not prefer them be considered so. The backgrounds from which their scene originated are much different than the online community of SC2 and doesn't think their scenes share similarities as other online gaming scenes do with SC2.
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It's pretty damn long, but like I mentioned before, an excellent read. I've read a lot of negative feedback previously from tournaments streaming FGC matches in-between SC2 rounds.
Personally, I enjoy watching some of the quick, clutch matches like when a player comes back from being on his LAST of 3 characters to beat an opponent that seemed to dominate the his first two with ease. The commentary isn't up to par with the Tastosis and Day9's of SC2, but I have a feeling they'll catch up pretty soon.
[TL'DR] UltraDavid feels the fighting gaming community isn't under the same tent as "esports" and would rather they be left separate. Their community has learned of the benefits from video streaming, PODcasts, youtube, and corporate sponsorships from StarCraft 2 but doesn't think the two communities could ever co-exist under the same moniker because of a variety of reasons (mostly, the backgrounds from which their community originated).
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Starcraft is ESPORTS!
Thanks for sharing this. I hope the best for the future of ESPORTS and SC
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I've read a lot of negative feedback previously from tournaments streaming FGC matches in-between SC2 rounds.
I wouldn't worry about that. DH deliberately injected the finals of SF between SC2 matches and it was received negatively because it was unexpected. Totally understandable if someone tried to broadcast Starcraft during a fighting game tourney. Personally I don't mind either, but I see why (a few) people did not like it; some are esports fans, some just want to watch Starcraft.
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Fighting Game Community? More like Capcom Game Community.
Honestly, I'm surprised by the way many of them have responded to talk about being in leagues, somehow they think that "assimilating" will destroy their community, but all their claims of why this would happen are completely unfounded. I really hope they wake up and see what joining bigger leagues like MLG can do for their community and most of all, their pro players.
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I don't think I agree with any of it. It makes the starcraft community out to be lucky and that fighting games are deeply engaging? Let me tell you this: I've watched THOUSANDS of hours of starcraft, and yet even after all those hours I still get perplexed by the new ways the game is being played. Is there really a thousand hours of entertainment of me watching guys kill each other in unique, complex combos?
Honestly I don't think so and for this purpose I DONT believe fighting games are well suited for spectating at all beyond the same way you'll have an introduction band to a large concert.
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There was a part mentioned about how Blizzard is the sole reason our community exploded so quickly and that Capcom is a Japanese-based company that has no involvement with the competitive scene what-so-ever.
This is partly true, being that, MLG works with Blizzard directly in promoting our scene while MLG has attempted to inject themselves in the Fighting Game Community but was met with hostility from Evo loyalists, as UltraDavid mentioned in his article, worried that EVO and their community events be over-shadowed by a multi-gaming super-event (such as MLG).
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I like watching/playing fighting games and would love to see that scene explode into something huge.
That said, I don't see what the problem is with having them at MLG. From what I understand, the fighting game community doesn't want the exposure or to be mainstream? How is it different the way that community evolved? We are all gamers. To a certain extent we are all the same. We all share a passion for gaming. I don't get it. Honestly, fuck them then. Don your hipster glasses and go play your little tournaments over there all by youselves. When the eSports scene blows up bigger than what it already is, and the world really starts to take notice, maybe you'll realize the mistake you made of shunning us.
I see this as we are all in it together and it can only help to grow the community to have different games involved. Why wouldn't you want to be a part of something like that? People confuse me man.
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On December 13 2011 16:59 ICarrotU wrote:
Fighting Game Community? More like Capcom Game Community.
Honestly, I'm surprised by the way many of them have responded to talk about being in leagues, somehow they think that "assimilating" will destroy their community, but all their claims of why this would happen are completely unfounded. I really hope they wake up and see what joining bigger leagues like MLG can do for their community and most of all, their pro players.
You say that derisively, as if it's something to look down on. But isn't the RTS community really just a part of the Blizzard community? When was the last time any other non-Blizzard RTS was relevant in tournaments?
Both SNK and Arksys are doing well within the Fighting Game community, even if Capcom is hyper-dominant. Warner Bro's MK9 and Namco's Soul Calibur 5 have gotten a decent amount of attention.
I was watching the Wednesday Night Fights stream when UltraDavid mentioned the basis for this article. He wants the scene to get bigger, everyone does, but it seems like it may be a little too much of a culture shock for the FGC to enter the mainstream eSports. Complexity and Evil Geniuses have already established their FG divisions, but the tournaments are just so much smaller.
Maybe it has something to do with Japan; Tougeki Super Battle Opera tournaments have demonstration of skill that can almost rival the BW scene, but the publicity was never as big. Capcom hasn't made the attempts Blizzard has to establish itself in eSports, and there was no national organization trying to make it big like Kespa.
Competitive Fighting Game Communities have developed/evolved differently from the rest of eSports, and that difference is why UltraDavid seemingly wrote that article.
On December 13 2011 17:40 theBALLS wrote:
I agree that fighting games can never be under the tenet of eSports in general.
It doesn't fall under the category of an "e-sport" which I define as a competitive activity that a significant number of people are able to appreciate as a spectator.
Unlike RTS games, fighting games lack the strategical depth that makes a game "watchable". I've been playing fighting games for as long as I can remember, much longer than I have with RTSes; but I will never be able to appreciate watching a fighting game like I do with SC2.
There's a significant amount of "strategic depth" involved in fighting games, but it takes a person to immerse themselves in fighting game fundamentals to really see it.
There is resource management, there is spacing/map control, there is timing, and there are punishment opportunities. It's just often very fast paced and easy to miss if you aren't experienced. There is no Day[9] in the fighting game community, but James Chen and UltraDavid are both very good commentators to listen to when you have little experience with fighting games and often commentate on the WNF streams.
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I agree that fighting games can never be under the tenet of eSports in general.
It doesn't fall under the category of an "e-sport" which I define as a competitive activity that a significant number of people are able to appreciate as a spectator.
Unlike RTS games, fighting games lack the strategical depth that makes a game "watchable". I've been playing fighting games for as long as I can remember, much longer than I have with RTSes; but I will never be able to appreciate watching a fighting game like I do with SC2.
Breaking away from eSports would serve them well, I feel. Fighting game spectatorship is a much more niche community than that of other video games. Catering specifically to this niche group would serve their community much more effectively than trying to serve fighting games + other video games under an umbrella called eSports.
Also, I sort of understand his pain of having "fighting game community" coming from very different backgrounds as compared to the RTS community. To make an extremely skewed exaggeration, the RTS community consists of the more "elitist" group of gamers who favour depth over action, and vice versa for the fighting gamers. It's sort of like a Jock vs Nerd high-school thing going on. Oil and water; it's hard to click.
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On December 13 2011 17:40 theBALLS wrote:
I agree that fighting games can never be under the tenet of eSports in general.
It doesn't fall under the category of an "e-sport" which I define as a competitive activity that a significant number of people are able to appreciate as a spectator.
Unlike RTS games, fighting games lack the strategical depth that makes a game "watchable". I've been playing fighting games for as long as I can remember, much longer than I have with RTSes; but I will never be able to appreciate watching a fighting game like I do with SC2.
I can appreciate your opinon, but let me say this. Action over strategy you say. Well in that case, how does that differ from an FPS? They are pretty same in that regard, yet there is a strong following with FPS games in tournaments and spectatorship.
From another point of view, I actually think there is more stratgey involved in a fighting game than you give credit for. I look at it almost like watching a boxing match or an MMA event. In a high level game, there is a decision making process underlying every move that is made, whether it be to lure an opponent into making a mistake, or to trick them into thinking one thing is coming only to hit them with something else. It's a fast paced game of chess, which last time I checked was a stratgey game. I for one think it's exciting to watch and I think many would agree with me if it were presented to them. Just my .02 
Edit - lol silencefc ninja'd me
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On December 13 2011 17:56 demonik187 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 17:40 theBALLS wrote:
I agree that fighting games can never be under the tenet of eSports in general.
It doesn't fall under the category of an "e-sport" which I define as a competitive activity that a significant number of people are able to appreciate as a spectator.
Unlike RTS games, fighting games lack the strategical depth that makes a game "watchable". I've been playing fighting games for as long as I can remember, much longer than I have with RTSes; but I will never be able to appreciate watching a fighting game like I do with SC2.
I can appreciate your opinon, but let me say this. Action over strategy you say. Well in that case, how does that differ from an FPS? They are pretty same in that regard, yet there is a strong following with FPS games in tournaments and spectatorship. From another point of view, I actually think there is more stratgey involved in a fighting game than you give credit for. I look at it almost like watching a boxing match or an MMA event. In a high level game, there is a decision making process underlying every move that is made, whether it be to lure an opponent into making a mistake, or to trick them into thinking one thing is coming only to hit them with something else. It's a fast paced game of chess, which last time I checked was a stratgey game. I for one think it's exciting to watch and I think many would agree with me if it were presented to them.
I was thinking about FPS games as I was writing my post as well, you bring up a good point
FPS games can be considered an eSport to me, although I don't enjoy them personally, because in my opinion they have a lot more depth than fighting games. People appreciate FPSes because of team dynamics. Things would be very different for FPS gaming spectatorship if it was 1 vs 1 FPS gaming (i.e no dynamics, no depth, incredibly boring). Because of team play in FPS games, it brings about a lot of strategy in addition to the action, therefore giving it depth, therefore making it "watchable".
I agree with your points of strategy in fighting games. The problem is that they happen so fast, that it's so hard to commentate on. Without good commentary, it's going to be boring. Also, the number of strategies are restricted. Tricking your opponent into this, luring into a mistake; it all revolves around the same axis. It gets old after awhile, whereas in RTS gaming, new strategies develop all the time.
You bring a good point, but that's my response.
:D
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Kinda depressing but I agree.
I'm a fighting gamer at heart, will always be.
Fighting game tournaments are always very rowdy.
People who attend seem to be in a lower social-economic bracket than those who attend MLG.
I've been to a number of gamestop midnight releases: marvel vs capcom 3, call of duty and starcraft.
The crowd for each is so unique!
MvC3 has mostly ...stereotypical nerd fans, most of which did not look like they fit into social norms
Starcraft2's release had a very diverse group, but definitely more mainstream
Call of Duty's release had mainly young men, who dressed very nicely...
That's just from my experience.
Small sample size
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Just give it time. A lot of what the article says is true, and I don't blame the "fighting game community" for it not blowing up like sc2. I'm actually surprised that fighters aren't more popular, but I guess that happens when your game's developer doesn't throw 1 million dollar tournaments. Fighting games fighting~
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On December 13 2011 17:20 Exempt. wrote:
I don't think I agree with any of it. It makes the starcraft community out to be lucky and that fighting games are deeply engaging? Let me tell you this: I've watched THOUSANDS of hours of starcraft, and yet even after all those hours I still get perplexed by the new ways the game is being played. Is there really a thousand hours of entertainment of me watching guys kill each other in unique, complex combos?
Honestly I don't think so and for this purpose I DONT believe fighting games are well suited for spectating at all beyond the same way you'll have an introduction band to a large concert.
I believe you're passing off fighting games strategic values because of a lack of knowledge of them at a competitive level. You've watched thousands of hours of Starcraft and yet still there are new ways to play the game, but is this the standard that everything must be held to when becoming suitable for spectating? Soccer has been played for over a hundred years and is now the largest spectator sport in the world, how often when watching a game do you find yourself perplexed by the way "they're just running around and kicking the ball"?
On December 13 2011 17:39 silencefc wrote:
You say that derisively, as if it's something to look down on. But isn't the RTS community really just a part of the Blizzard community? When was the last time any other non-Blizzard RTS was relevant in tournaments?
Both SNK and Arksys are doing well within the Fighting Game community, even if Capcom is hyper-dominant. Warner Bro's MK9 and Namco's Soul Calibur 5 have gotten a decent amount of attention.
I was watching the Wednesday Night Fights stream when UltraDavid mentioned the basis for this article. He wants the scene to get bigger, everyone does, but it seems like it may be a little too much of a culture shock for the FGC to enter the mainstream eSports. Complexity and Evil Geniuses have already established their FG divisions, but the tournaments are just so much smaller.
Maybe it has something to do with Japan; Tougeki Super Battle Opera tournaments have demonstration of skill that can almost rival the BW scene, but the publicity was never as big. Capcom hasn't made the attempts Blizzard has to establish itself in eSports, and there was no national organization trying to make it big like Kespa.
Competitive Fighting Game Communities have developed/evolved differently from the rest of eSports, and that difference is why UltraDavid seemingly wrote that article
I was being sarcastic, but yes, I agree, Blizzard is the only company competent enough to make competitively viable RTS games.
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On December 13 2011 16:59 ICarrotU wrote:
Fighting Game Community? More like Capcom Game Community.
Honestly, I'm surprised by the way many of them have responded to talk about being in leagues, somehow they think that "assimilating" will destroy their community, but all their claims of why this would happen are completely unfounded. I really hope they wake up and see what joining bigger leagues like MLG can do for their community and most of all, their pro players.
Did you even read the article?
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On December 13 2011 18:09 Dazer wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 16:59 ICarrotU wrote:
Fighting Game Community? More like Capcom Game Community.
Honestly, I'm surprised by the way many of them have responded to talk about being in leagues, somehow they think that "assimilating" will destroy their community, but all their claims of why this would happen are completely unfounded. I really hope they wake up and see what joining bigger leagues like MLG can do for their community and most of all, their pro players. Did you even read the article?
Yes, hence me saying many of them have responded, especially when agreeing with this article. This has been the only level-headed article I've read in reply to this FGC-eSports situation that has been buzzing lately. I'll spare you the research and let you know that the vocal majority (including quite a few community figures) have been completely against co-operating with claims that leagues will single-highhandedly dismantle their community with....a new tournament every 2 months. While David says that he can understand their reasoning, they're still confused with the situation and that joining leagues will not ruin the community.
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The problem with ESPORTS for FGC is that they want to grow, but they don't want to change. That's not an unreasonable demand, especially since EVO and their own tournaments have been growing without the help of MLG. Fighting games are waaaay more hype, way more intimate and way more confrontational, and MLG history shows what happens when they start playing Tekken, DoA and Brawl... and they do not want that to happen again.
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Finally read the whole thing, then saw the TLDR in the bottom (Doh!).
I dont really play other games other than SC2 and CS so it's really nice to get some perspective from other games. It was interesting to read about the cultural differences in different scenes, I definitely feel like a "Nick" in that article because what I enjoy about StarCraft is that our demographic doesn't seem as "frat" as those from other games. It makes me feel comfortable as a nerdy guy to go to SC2 tournaments because everyone sort of has the same expectations, "sit down and watch then go ape shit when its appropriate."
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I've always hated the FGC with a passion. They seem way more elitist than anyone else and their personalities are all pretty horrible for the most part.
Also I have never been able to find the fun in playing fighting games competitively, so that doesn't help my outlook on these people. They are fun to play and watch but I could never imagine sitting around hammering out 1 combo or something for hours, where is the fun in that? I have a friend that used to be a competitive Melee player but I feel Melee is completely different (in a GREAT way) from other fighting games.
But I don't think the FGC can keep growing on its own, eSports doesn't need them but they will need us if they actually want to expand.
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wow why dont our pros/casters have casual matches with spectaters more often i just realised how awesome that is
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EPT
