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Ympulse
United States287 Posts
On December 13 2011 20:52 Turbogangsta wrote: wow why dont our pros/casters have casual matches with spectaters more often i just realised how awesome that is Because the Pros/Casters are too good for the rabble. Definitely a good read, and makes me hopeful that the FGC can keep doing it's thing without getting shit on by some corporation that just wants a quick buck. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10596 Posts
He dismisses online play and sees it as not "natural" to fighting games. Now I understand his doubts due to the lag associated with it, that’s a problem that needs to be fixed somehow, but as long as the people need to go to an arcade to play competitively the FGC will never grow BIG. As much as I would and others do like to play againt the local champ in person, it's just not feasible at many places. It is mandatory for E-Sports to have the possibility to be competitively played from home, there is NO ESport that is played "mainly" in a LAN/Live environment. I don't know about the US but Arcades seem basically non existant to me here (as is the FGC... But that could just be my "blindness"...). I also learned something more from this article: The majority of the people in the FGC seems to be: A: Poor. B: Criminal C: Homeless D: More than one of the above  .E: White and therefore successful in live by default O_o. I mean common... I can't be as bad as the article makes it out to be? | ||
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archonOOid
1983 Posts
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klo8
Austria1960 Posts
On December 13 2011 22:33 Ympulse wrote: Because the Pros/Casters are too good for the rabble. Of course, that has to be it. Our casters and pros are completely disconnected from the community and are too good for playing little games with the plebs. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10596 Posts
Seriously, all i would feel when playing against some high profile progamer would be stupidity because it would look like this: A: We both play normal and he just mauls me. B: I try some cheese to have a very tiny chance of winning. C: He is restricting himself like mad and I could just as well play against someone of my own skill and have a better game. | ||
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Poffel
471 Posts
Everybody immediately understands what's going on, and judging the score is as easy as looking at two red bars on top of the screen. Compared to that, in order to appreciate competitors duking it out in a top-level RTS game, you have to be a fucking sage... | ||
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Turbogangsta
Australia319 Posts
On December 13 2011 23:00 Velr wrote: Whats the point/fun of playing against someone that just will dismantle you (when your not training)? I never understood that and never will. Seriously, all i would feel when playing against some high profile progamer would be stupidity because it would look like this: A: We both play normal and he just mauls me. B: I try some cheese to have a very tiny chance of winning. C: He is restricting himself like mad and I could just as well play against someone of my own skill and have a better game. your missing a point i see. imagine going to a live event and being luky enough to get on a machine to play your favorite pro gamer. i would love to even if i lost and im sure the pros could have fun doing it by playing rediculous strategies just for fun. i would love to be able to tell my friends i got to play a match against my favorite player. its not about winning its about interaction | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10596 Posts
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nihlon
Sweden5581 Posts
On December 13 2011 16:57 Remb wrote: I wouldn't worry about that. DH deliberately injected the finals of SF between SC2 matches and it was received negatively because it was unexpected. Totally understandable if someone tried to broadcast Starcraft during a fighting game tourney. Personally I don't mind either, but I see why (a few) people did not like it; some are esports fans, some just want to watch Starcraft. If anyone read the schedule long before the final it should not come as a surprise. | ||
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BigLighthouse
United Kingdom424 Posts
That said, I think he is trying to show differences that arnt actually that relevant. I can accept his word that the games we've seen in WCG, ESWC, the foundations for traditional competative gaming, have fostered a scene that is not the same as the fighting games. However they seem to be used to argue the point "Why we're acting dumb" not "Why our actions are not dumb" if you'll allow me to be crude. I think this is really highlighted by the passage about teams like EG and coL picking up players and being greeted with what seems to amount to suspicion and fear rather than complaints based on anything thats actually happened. As far as their tournament circuit goes, I think he's right, they dont need any help, they have some sweet events. BUT, if people want to pick up their games then they ought realise that they are going to want to pick them up in a way that engages with the current fighting game audience. I think the anal calls for proffesionalism thrown about by the sc2 scene is perhaps a slight factor in their concerns here, but they shouldnt be. Ultimately, if another tournament was to pick up streetfighter its not because they want to cater to teamliquid visitors, its because they are trying to cater to streetfighter demographic and if what sells to those guys are louder and more raw then those tournaments arnt gonna ignore that. And if they did, shit they deserve to fail. | ||
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VManOfMana
United States764 Posts
On December 13 2011 22:45 Velr wrote: Hm... I think he misses the main problem and is himself also part of it. He dismisses online play and sees it as not "natural" to fighting games. Now I understand his doubts due to the lag associated with it, that’s a problem that needs to be fixed somehow, but as long as the people need to go to an arcade to play competitively the FGC will never grow BIG. As much as I would and others do like to play againt the local champ in person, it's just not feasible at many places. It is mandatory for E-Sports to have the possibility to be competitively played from home, there is NO ESport that is played "mainly" in a LAN/Live environment. I don't know about the US but Arcades seem basically non existant to me here (as is the FGC... But that could just be my "blindness"...). See BroodWar and PC Bangs; thats where the clans and progaming teams come from. FPS and LAN Parties. Korean training houses. It is true that players use network play to practice. Fighting Game players do it as well, even before it was officially supported by the game companies. However, for an actual community foundation to develop organically, you need LAN/Local play. Thats where the game will really develop. Network play brings breadth, but local play brings depth, roots, and a solid foundation. The weakest point of ESPORTS is that it has no depth. It is tethered to the will of the developing company. As soon as Blizzard deems Starcraft 2 obsolete, all they have is to cut the money and Starcraft 2 is done on behalf of the next game. This is what largely happened to the foreign Brood War scene. Korean Brood War's roots are so deep that they trascend Blizzard, to the point it exists *despite* Blizzard. However, it can only develop in places with the proper environment (Korea, Japan). This is e-Sports. The Fighting Game community developed without the help of corporations, and it will continue to organically grow, slowly, but steady and strong, as long as the community keeps working. | ||
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Corvi
Germany1406 Posts
but ultimately i think this article is very bad, and he is kinda insulting his own community. he sounds as if its a major desire of the fgc to stay unorganised and unsponsored. as if loudness and emotionality had anything to do with professionalism. sc2 is just more the tennis of esports and sf4 the football. | ||
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VManOfMana
United States764 Posts
On December 13 2011 23:00 Velr wrote: Whats the point/fun of playing against someone that just will dismantle you (when your not training)? I never understood that and never will. Seriously, all i would feel when playing against some high profile progamer would be stupidity because it would look like this: A: We both play normal and he just mauls me. B: I try some cheese to have a very tiny chance of winning. C: He is restricting himself like mad and I could just as well play against someone of my own skill and have a better game. It is also the best way to improve. But you need to put a lot of effort in the process. However, a social setting gives you all the resources (prople to talk to) to work on it. I played against John Choi's Sagat in Super Street Fighter II Turbo in the B5 tournament (the precursor of Evolution). I got mauled. I only hit him three times in two games (four rounds) with my Chun Li. Sagat is a bad matchup for Chun Li, but that's when I realized how bad it can be. His Sagat was that close to perffection. However, ever since those games, I have never felt nervous against fighting Sagat. I know that unless I face someone as good as John Choi's I can make the correct moves and reads to win the fight. Not even Justin Wong's was that fearful. | ||
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I_Love_Bacon
United States5765 Posts
I think fear that combining scenes or new tournaments attempting to take on fighting games might not be that great to start... but that's where my sentiments stop and his continue. I think that the leagues would either improve it and keep it hype and entertaining, or it wouldn't and the FGC would return to exactly where they are now. Ultradavid wants to keep his community the way it is, the problem is, his own community will be changing greatly and is already doing so. I wouldn't want fighting games to have slow or stale commentary, but I don't think that will ever happen. The games lend themselves so naturally to hype and excitement because of easily digestible, action packed rounds. There will always be excitement. | ||
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goiflin
Canada1218 Posts
On December 13 2011 22:45 Velr wrote: Hm... I think he misses the main problem and is himself also part of it. He dismisses online play and sees it as not "natural" to fighting games. Now I understand his doubts due to the lag associated with it, that’s a problem that needs to be fixed somehow, but as long as the people need to go to an arcade to play competitively the FGC will never grow BIG. As much as I would and others do like to play againt the local champ in person, it's just not feasible at many places. It is mandatory for E-Sports to have the possibility to be competitively played from home, there is NO ESport that is played "mainly" in a LAN/Live environment. I don't know about the US but Arcades seem basically non existant to me here (as is the FGC... But that could just be my "blindness"...). I also learned something more from this article: The majority of the people in the FGC seems to be: A: Poor. B: Criminal C: Homeless D: More than one of the above .E: White and therefore successful in live by default O_o. I mean common... I can't be as bad as the article makes it out to be? You obviously missed a lot of the main points in the article, but okay. He was saying that the FGC community is more diverse than the SC community, which is true, in terms of both spectators and players. Also, where the hell did you get criminal from? And he gave one example of a guy in a car. One. One =! majority. And the lag issue will never die for a very long time, not until basic infastructure in america is replaced. And even then, how do you play with someone from canada? From california to someone on the east coast? Fighting games have huge differences in even the smallest amount of latency. A 20ms match can still make some tactics viable, where with no MS delay, you wouldn't be able to pull that off. You need to play offline to be able to play competitively. Also, have you watched a fighting game tournament? You sit beside your opponent. With a huge, noisy, crowd behind you, with no seperation between you and them. You need the experience offline to be able to play competitively because you need to be used to that kind of setting. On December 13 2011 23:00 Velr wrote: Whats the point/fun of playing against someone that just will dismantle you (when your not training)? I never understood that and never will. Seriously, all i would feel when playing against some high profile progamer would be stupidity because it would look like this: A: We both play normal and he just mauls me. B: I try some cheese to have a very tiny chance of winning. C: He is restricting himself like mad and I could just as well play against someone of my own skill and have a better game. It runs that way in fighting games too, bud. You play against a guy who mauls you, and you see how well you could do against him, with whatever experience you've had. It's called measuring yourself up. You obviously need more confidence in yourself to understand the fun of casually playing against a top level player. | ||
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SKC
Brazil18828 Posts
On December 13 2011 23:56 VManOfMana wrote: It is also the best way to improve. But you need to put a lot of effort in the process. However, a social setting gives you all the resources (prople to talk to) to work on it. I played against John Choi's Sagat in Super Street Fighter II Turbo in the B5 tournament (the precursor of Evolution). I got mauled. I only hit him three times in two games (four rounds) with my Chun Li. Sagat is a bad matchup for Chun Li, but that's when I realized how bad it can be. His Sagat was that close to perffection. However, ever since those games, I have never felt nervous against fighting Sagat. I know that unless I face someone as good as John Choi's I can make the correct moves and reads to win the fight. Not even Justin Wong's was that fearful. A pro will destroy you much faster in Street Figther than it will in Starcraft. Wasting 2 minutes a game to have some fun with the fans is much easier than wasting 15+ minutes, and if they only cannon rushed or 2 rax all inned it would kind off kill some of the fun. You really can't just compare both communities, there are huge diferences in them that need to be taken into account. It's not that it's less valuable to the common guy, but it's a much bigger commitment on the pro. Plus, you can always face pros on the ladder, as long as you are good enough. If you get to the point where you really could apreciate playing one of them, you are not that far off from being able to do it. | ||
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Turbogangsta
Australia319 Posts
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Velr
Switzerland10596 Posts
I would instantly have jumped in to have a Tekken brawl against some good player (i don't follow the scene) because i used the be pretty good at Tekken 3 and 4. But thats entirely diffrent for SC2 because the games are diffrent. In Tekken i could see if i actually could give the guy a little trouble and even if not i would take a beating to remember ..In SC2 this is not the case because you don't see all the diffrences that make him better during the play... You just do your stuff and then get killed (or attack and then get countered/killed). You obviously missed a lot of the main points in the article, but okay. He was saying that the FGC community is more diverse than the SC community, which is true, in terms of both spectators and players. Also, where the hell did you get criminal from? And he gave one example of a guy in a car. One. One =! majority. I read the other poitns, but they seemed all less important to me. Where i live and in basically all of switzerland there are next to NO arcades. There is no "place" to go to play Street Fighter/Tekken except private/half-private meetings... Therefore onlineplay is the by far most important aspect of the game. Yes, lag is an Issue and will be for a long time, but i doubt that any fighter will get truely big before it can be played online. He wrote about a guy sleeping in a car, guys that were in prison... In General i felt he stereotyped the FGC very bad. | ||
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Eppa!
Sweden4641 Posts
On December 14 2011 00:58 Velr wrote: I don't think you can compare this in SC2 and a Beat'em'up.. I would instantly have jumped in to have a Tekken brawl against some good player (i don't follow the scene) because i used the be pretty good at Tekken 3 and 4. But thats entirely diffrent for SC2 because the games are diffrent. In Tekken i could see if i actually could give the guy a little trouble and even if not i would take a beating to remember ..In SC2 this is not the case because you don't see all the diffrences that make him better during the play... You just do your stuff and then get killed (or attack and then get countered/killed). I read the other poitns, but they seemed all less important to me. Where i live and in basically all of switzerland there are next to NO arcades. There is no "place" to go to play Street Fighter/Tekken except private/half-private meetings... Therefore onlineplay is the by far most important aspect of the game. Yes, lag is an Issue and will be for a long time, but i doubt that any fighter will get truely big before it can be played online. He wrote about a guy sleeping in a car, guys that were in prison... In General i felt he stereotyped the FGC very bad. My introductions to fighting community (SSBM) was playing with friends on lunch breaks and then reading on the internet about tournaments/proscene and then searching for it. This sort of effort never happens now a day. SSBM esports is no more of a sport than warhammer or something similar. Its just as much about meeting people and having fun with a competitive aspect. FG will not become big anytime soon but the FGC is really healthy as it is now. | ||
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warcode
Norway46 Posts
The way I see it is that they want to keep their core values in which everybody is a player, and if they want, competitor. It doesn't matter if you aren't already known, or if you are really good, if you come to a major event, got your money and enter, you get to play. As for most of the commentators I think they would rather tell it as it is and keep bringing the hype over being "more professional". As a viewer of many a fighting game stream, as well as a player, I can attest to the quality of the stream and hype meter being lowered if the commentators have to keep the language "clean" or try to "up the professionalism". It simply doesn't fit with the crowd. | ||
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