holy shit david's article everywhere. gonna actually try and watch majority of this besides spooky's bit post school finals
having followed fighting games since 2005 and competing since 2008, i gotta say i'm extremely happy with the way fighting games are today especially compared to the dark days. looking back where "giant" tournaments of 50-60 ppl max and matches were being commentated over srk irc/threads, to now where we got 200+ entrants in tournaments + major streams once/twice a month. Do i want to see more sponsorships/money grow more where more deserving players get paid? Yes. Do i want to see FG's blow up even more and get more limelight? Hell yes. but as of now, looking back to what it was before, i'm extremely content with the way the community/progress is atm
edit: kof 13 for mlg ^^
I guess Tom is a God now, he can do no wrong and has no vested interest in keeping a monopoly on the FGC.
From the video anyway, but more to your paragraph is that you're extremely content with the progress is atm. It's pretty clear that the progress has been slackened directly by people not wanting to cooperate.
And then you want to see more sponsorships/money, more limelight, but then you're extremely happy with the way the FGC has been deliberately slowing progress? I don't understand that, I can understand the conservatism that the FGC wants to uphold (to some degree), but being extremely happy with the FGC and then wanting more sponsorships/money/limelight are completely opposite viewpoints.
I would love to know what your definition of "deliberately slowing progress" is. And there is absolutely nothing contradictory about being happy with where you are while wanting more. Not at all.
You think the FGC has been an open book to eSports. I wasn't saying there was contradiction with being happy with where you are and wanting more, but being happy with the FGC and wanting more is contradictory.
I honestly have no idea what the bolded means, and the rest is you saying the exact same thing in very slightly different words while saying one is not contradictory and the other is. *headscratch* There is absolutely nothing remotely contradictory about anyone, in any situation, having contentment and ambition at once. Yes, people want to see the fighting game scene grow and more avenues for money arise. Yes, leagues can help facilitate that, but they aren't the only avenue to achieve that. And it doesn't help with the apprehension when you have people like Jerry from vVv talking to Spooky in the most condescending manner possible while completely misconstruing the message and intent of UltraDavid's article.
On December 15 2011 10:48 Hnnngg wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:47 VManOfMana wrote:
I guess Tom is a God now, he can do no wrong and has no vested interest in keeping a monopoly on the FGC.
From the video anyway, but more to your paragraph is that you're extremely content with the progress is atm. It's pretty clear that the progress has been slackened directly by people not wanting to cooperate.
And then you want to see more sponsorships/money, more limelight, but then you're extremely happy with the way the FGC has been deliberately slowing progress? I don't understand that, I can understand the conservatism that the FGC wants to uphold (to some degree), but being extremely happy with the FGC and then wanting more sponsorships/money/limelight are completely opposite viewpoints.
Being happy with the community and wanting more sponsorships/money/limelight are not completely opposite views.
What the FGC is doing is to set priorities straight. Making a profit is fine, but FGC doesn't want to do it at the expense of community.
The person Sp00ky was replying only offered paying people for their work. In short, he was about making a profit selling fighting games matches, a product the FGC can provide. There was nothing about strenghtening the community. Creating an spectator-only crowd or selling a product to spectators is not part of the FGC definition of a stronger community.
The impression I get from the ESPORT crowd is that when there is no strong sense of an active, offline, in person playing community, success and growth are measured with profitability. I think it's a very dangerous proposition, because the relevance and lifeline of your community is directly tied to how much money your game makes to Blizzard, MLG, etc.
My fascination with Korean Brood War did start from the fact it became a profitable activity, but they also have an important difference to ESPORTS: they are largely autonomous, just like the FGC community. It is no coincidence BW in Korea has survived Blizzard's plan for obsolescence.
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Warpticon: sup!
It's hardly dangerous. Make a profit and survive, that's how the world works.
And if FG's were added to the eSport crowd, they could/would make a profit or they wouldn't and go back to the way they were. It's not like if they stop being conservative assholes that they can't go back to being conservative assholes. But you know what? I want more FG content. I want more stuff to watch even though I haven't played a FG since I was a child going to arcades. But I can't get that because other people don't want it. Or they do but they won't say how to do it.
"Oh, I'd love more sponsorship/money/limelight, but not the way you're doing it even though it works!"
Then come up with something better right now so I can watch to my hearts content like I can with SC2/DotA2. But right now, I can watch people streaming (started in November 2011, way fucking late) and I watched CanadaCup. But since then, nothing. I don't even know what's happening until next Evo because I didn't start watching FG's until 2011.
"Make a profit and survive" is a massive oversimplification. if it was that simple, no one would ever lose money, struggle, or shut down business. And furthermore, profit doesn't come in a vacuum. I That's the point that people have been trying to make, and I don't understand why it's so hard for some to grasp it. For most of the FGC, it's s not a spectator activity: it's a participation activity. Things that may impede on the capability for or quality of competition have a risk of detriment. That doesn't mean that it WILL be a detriment, but to dismiss the fact that it COULD be is just silly.
As for the rest, I'm honestly puzzled how you can not know about anything after Canada Cup if you actually knew about Canada Cup. How did you find out about it, and what's keeping you from finding more? It's really easy to find fighting game content to watch if you want to. If you use Teevox, there's a pulldown menu for fighting. There's the Option Select stream every Monday, 8 on the Break every Tuesday. Cross Counter has their live talk show on fighting game topics every Tuesday. Starbase, Big Two, and Wednesday Night Fights are streaming every Wednesday. There's usually a Norcal stream on Thursdays, too. Avoiding The Puddle streams Tekken from Super Arcade every Friday. Top players like Juicebox, NYCFurby, Justin Wong, Floe, Filipino Champ, Flash Metroid, and others have personal streams that go up at random times. Fighting game streams are posted on the front page of Shoryuken, IPlayWinner, EventHubs, and other news sites. Fighting game streams are on the front page of Twitch.tv. Several fighting game streamers are listed on gamescast.tv. Cross Counter has a live fighting game news show every Tuesday. There has been one major tournament (NEC, the first major for Ultimate Marvel vs Capcom 3), a steady diet of weeklies, and several high profile exhibitions such as LA Barfights and the SRK Showmatches since Canada Cup. SoCal Regionals happens this weekend. Several players and commentators have been on Live On 3 and Slasher's show both previewing and reviewing the events since Canada Cup happened, almost every week. Streams get talked about in the SSF4, UMvC3, and general fighting game threads on this very forum. If you have a legitimate interest, you almost have to be trying not to find stuff to watch to miss it.
Sup, VMan.
So you didn't like what Jerry said because he was condescending? From what I've seen the FGC is really hardcore and doesn't like being carebears. Oh well.
And it's not an oversimplification. I'm not saying that making a profit was easy, but that's what you need to do. You make a profit and then you live. That's how it works.
I seriously don't see how sponsored players getting full-time jobs being players will negatively affect the quality.
And I heard about Canada Cup from LO3. That's where I get all my FG stuff (aside from Wong/Ricky/EG twitter). And I don't want to watch daily streams. Streaming is cute, but online play cannot compare to offline play. I want to see huge-ass LANs with tons of hype and big-ass crowds chanting names. I don't get that outside of EVO with FGC, wasn't there less than 1000 people at CanadaCup and DevEvent? It's so smalltime and I don't like it.
Okay, so apparently you care more about the size of the in-person crowd than the actual content. Okay. Forget I ever said anything. (also, when did anybody say anything about online play?)
That's how you get money and sponsorships. As far as I know, there aren't any professional FG players outside of Japan. You have guys that just play the games well. But not as well as they could, they could be so much better if they actually had the time to dedicate to playing instead of having jobs outside of progaming.
So you know what? I do care about the content because it could be better with an increase in the size of the in-person crowd.
Wow I finally read that whole article. Its really interresting. I've always wondered, why there were so many black ppl (not that there's anything wrong with that!) in those games. And I remember watching some clip on SRK some time ago, where some black dude where playing Daigo, and he was completely trash talking him Daigo because he took one round from him, and bashing him the rest of the match, even though he got owned afterwards. And everybody was just laughing (I admit I laughed to, but that was mostly because I found it weird that some scrub (I didnt know him) would talk like that to god (Daigo in my spectator eyes)), a top progamer who has been owning in this scene for over 10 years. But they probably werent laughing for the same reasons as I was. I was laughinh because he was a nobody scrub, but seems thats not how people look at it in the FGC, because its normal to just stand next to your opponent, when playing.
And to everybody: I really recommend reading the article. It's really good and it puts alot of stuff in perspective.
street fighter 3rd strike is probably the only game to rival bw at a real competitive level (broodwar not starcraft 2) one thing im also curious about is what has blizzard actually done to promote esports? all the development of esports was done by the community and definitely not blizzard they just made sure they benefited from it...
I can't be the only one who listened/watched that clip from the podcast and actually thought that Jerrith came out sounding a lot better than Spooky, right? I don't necessarily agree wholeheartedly with all of his points, but they certainly make sense and a lot of what he said is on the right track.
In a way, it is almost a micro-chasm of the arguments surrounding both sides condensed into that 7 minute clip.
On December 15 2011 15:52 I_Love_Bacon wrote: I can't be the only one who listened/watched that clip from the podcast and actually thought that Jerrith came out sounding a lot better than Spooky, right? I don't necessarily agree wholeheartedly with all of his points, but they certainly make sense and a lot of what he said is on the right track.
In a way, it is almost a micro-chasm of the arguments surrounding both sides condensed into that 7 minute clip.
*microcosm
Well, it depends. Did you actually read the article? All the way through? If you didn't, I can get how you might have that impression, to a point. If you did, though, then I don't know what to say, because the overwhelming majority of what Jerry was talking about was pure nonsense.
Jerry said "I think what Tom wrote, and what David wrote, which is 'I don't think this is gonna work, the cultures don't fit--" is complete bullcrap. In fact, it's pretty much the opposite of what they were saying. They weren't saying "We're different, so it won't work." They were saying "We're different, so it won't work the way everything else works, and if you're going to work with us, you need to acknowledge that." The last paragraph of UltraDavid's article:
"Nevertheless, I think the FGC is doing a great job building itself now and slowly starting to get away from its insularity even as it retains all the other things about what it is. The fighting game community doesn’t feel compelled to work with professional gaming leagues.At the same time, I expect that we’ll eventually go pro, either on our terms with something we create or working with informed established professional leagues. I think we can work together. There have already been examples of that. But as in any business venture, everyone involved has to make absolutely sure that they understand the other side."
How can any competent, intelligent, reasonable person read that and decide that UltraDavid was saying that it could never work?
Jerry: "I can go to any event and find something wrong, and then write about it. And that's exactly what David did, and that's disingenuous. David went to a NASL event, picked one small part of it out, and said 'look, it's not gonna work.'"
Um, no, he didn't. I can't even count how many ways this is wrong. For starters, David didn't say anything was wrong with his experience at NASL. He just said it was different. And that was the point: to highlight the differences in culture and expectations between the pro gaming circuit and the grassroots fighting game community. He used the situation with Nick to make a single point. He used the "black guy" incident to highlight the relative homogeneity of the crowd there. He talked about a lot of different aspects, he talked to a lot of people to get their ideas, and he put his thoughts to words. And of course, as I just said, HE NEVER SAID A COLLABORATION WOULDN'T WORK. His insistence on being mad about things that were never said makes him look like a buffoon.
"I'm gonna tell you as an adult, every event I do in the world...I may invite McDonald's and IBM and everything, and everybody's got a little complaint about something that could be better. But, you know what? It's done, and we all move on to the next year, because we have bigger things to do. They may not have worked perfectly, but in the adult world--especially in the adult business world--this is not personal. This is about making things better so everybody can profit."
Alright, nevermind that he never answered Spooky's question. Nevermind that he's basically dismissing the grievances of the Evo side with no acknowledgment by just saying "business, not personal." The part that really set me off when listening to this is how this clown had the nerve to talk down to someone, especially when he didn't bother to do the most basic, fundamental part of his own job and read the article he intended to discuss.
As an adult. Really? In the adult world. Are you freaking kidding me? You're seriously talking to a 31-year-old entrepreneur like he's a child? "Yeah, I'm going to not answer your question, because that small potatoes stuff doesn't matter with us grownups, we have other stuff to do." Right, I'm sure you have that attitude when the bank you do business with overcharges you on fees, or the restaurant you do business with undercooks your food, etc. Hey, business, never personal, right? To dismiss a legitimate gripe as a petty grudge is just garbage. If you don't think it's legit, you explain your side, or you extend a hand and offer to make things better going forward. You don't blow it off and say "well, we adults wouldn't be worried about that." It's insulting, counterproductive, and just plain stupid. Oh, and you know what people do in the "adult world?" Adults with radio shows/podcasts who plan to discuss an article typically read the article they plan to talk about.
And then people wonder why the fighting game community is apprehensive about dealing with these organizations and question whether they have our best interests at heart? Come on. I know this guy doesn't represent esports as a whole, but that is exactly the kind of attitude that makes the scene pensive.
Beyond that, he also suggested that he's suspicious that they're just trying to protect their own interests, both Tom and David. How does UltraDavid benefit from the scene growing more gradually? He's a (primarily unpaid) commentator and an attorney with clients in the scene. How would greater exposure not benefit him? What possible agenda could he have in encouraging the scene to emphasize community over money?
So, with all that in mind, I have no idea how you can actually think Jerry looked good in any way, shape, or form.
The fact that you started by correcting a single spelling mistake already sets this off on the wrong foot.
You certainly put a whole bunch of words in my mouth that I don't ever recall saying. Was me saying I don't agree with all his points misinterpreted as, "I agree with all of his points?"
Where the dude on the podcast 100% hit the nail on the head is that they should be looking for a way to work together properly, not looking for reasons they can't. Ultradavid's article was not directly opposed to leagues and whatnot, obviously, but it certainly wasn't setting out good ideas on how to do things.
Ironically, the point that you brush over the quickest is one I happen to actually agree with (while all of the other points you seemed to think I agreed with him about I don't). I actually think it is very territorial, even if subconscious. When the debate first really started, months ago, one of the primary things that was talked about was how people didn't want to see Spooky and other tournament organizers/casters/streamers pushed out of the loop. I think that, even if they rationalize away from that, is still in the back of their minds. I think the FGC and some of its members specifically want to succeed on their own terms so it can be used as a pedestal to prove how awesome and right they were in history's eyes. Never mind that there is an opportunity staring them in the face; if they avoid it then they can still have their day in the sun.
Now, I'm not saying they're all selfish and looking to better only their own stock. Far from it. I just happen to think that, of the arguments he posed, that one actually makes a lot of sense. Where I really backed him up was the simple idea that everybody should be striving actively to work together, not to be fearful of what could go wrong. UD obviously sees this as an option, but a lot of other members in the FGC are much, much more reserved and UD's article reads much more like a warning, rather than a hopeful or spirited message.
Now, the primary way this podcast debate was a miniaturized version of the debate (notice how in that post I never mentioned UD's article?) is the attitude that both sides took. VvV dude was pushing, pushing, pushing to get the esports point across and all of its glory while Spooky was taking an emotional stance primarily built around 1 community figure. It's the big bad Walmart coming to town to push the mom-and-pop corner store out of business as far as many are concerned.
Well its good article, but i feel its acurate only in regards to US. I mean here (In eastern Europe) fighting games are the rich kids games (consoles+games are really expansive while PC +pirating games isnt). Cs and SC (to less the degree) are games for "poor" kids. But maybe i will start from the begining.
There are almost no arcades in Poland, they used to be, they were pretty popluar and atracting a lot of diverse people just like Ultradavid said, but they disappered after few years, i would wager it had something to do with laws,taxation and involvment of organized crime, but i am just guessing.
Anyway those poeple who played at arcades moved on to PC caffes as we call them or pc bangs if You like. You just paid for an hour, and played...what were u playing? Duke,C&C, NFS, Quake, later SC and CS, a lot of different kids, i used to frequent those before i got internet at home, and so did a lot of kids from so called middle class. They were located (pca bangs) mainly in centre of the city, so we had to get there by bus (not that i live in suburbs just not in the middle of the town). Just stating this so You know we had to put effort to get there. Of course we met a lot of kids from centre town, usually poor, poorer then us, they had no money to play, so they borrowed it (and never gave it back), or steal it...they would just go out, when their time was up, for few minutes, rob some kid on the street that came to the center of town to party (those PC bangs were located right next to clubs and pubs) and come back to play. There were usually no violence involved but threat of it...anyway. Some of those poor center town kids were selliing drugs, most of them were using it (amphetamine), thats a drug that coincidently works great with all night long cs or sc gaming. Some of my friends got into drugs that way, some of them got into some serious debts over gaming. Anyway most of us stoped frequenting those when we got installed interent at home. Those who werent so lucky...well they stayed there. So once interent got cheaper scene got more diveresed, middle class people joined, but roots are pretty much in those pc bangs, and that roots stay strong.
Thats pretty much the orgins of eastern europe sc and cs..thats the way Poland was so strong in bw, and was becoming stronger the longer bw was out. It was old game, You dont need expansive rig to play bw, that way polish bw scene is still living, some people just cant aford rig to play sc2...its changing as sc2 is becoming older, and you can play it on cheaper rig but still....
Just look at most succesfull polish cs team (pantagram,again,fx or esc now) i dont want to hate, i love these guys! But just look at them, you can see they have different history than fnatic or mtw. Do you guys remeber what Rekrul or some other guys were saying about Suncow when he was in Korea? Do You recall the amount of hatred, bm and other shit that was present whenever polteam (polish bw team) were playing? Polish sc an cs scenes are "diverse" in sense that Ultradavid used.
Just using it as oportunity to explain that sc and even more cs are polish equivalent of what FGC is in USA. Poor kids game. That of course is huge generalization, but is largly true i feel. One more example, i recall that some of known (not respected but known) members of polish comunity were once caught stealing gear from sc LAN. Can u imagine it? Basicly stealing from the game You love, the game You play....Different background.
On December 15 2011 17:54 I_Love_Bacon wrote: The fact that you started by correcting a single spelling mistake already sets this off on the wrong foot.
You certainly put a whole bunch of words in my mouth that I don't ever recall saying. Was me saying I don't agree with all his points misinterpreted as, "I agree with all of his points?"
Pots, kettles, etc. When did I put any words in your mouth at all, much less a whole bunch? You said you came away thinking Jerry looked better than Spooky, in spite of the fact that most of Jerry's comments were ignorant at best and insulting at worst. I said that I could understand if you didn't read the article, but if you read the article and understood all the falsehood and nonsense Jerry was spewing, I don't know how you could come away thinking he looked better than Spooky (and it doesn't help that he would barely let Spooky get a word in, either). At no time did I ever say you agreed with everything he said, or even any particular thing.
On December 15 2011 17:54 I_Love_Bacon wrote: Where the dude on the podcast 100% hit the nail on the head is that they should be looking for a way to work together properly, not looking for reasons they can't. Ultradavid's article was not directly opposed to leagues and whatnot, obviously, but it certainly wasn't setting out good ideas on how to do things.
That's the thing: nobody is "looking for reasons they can't." That's a complete copout. Neither of the articles in question was about finding reasons not to do it. They were explaining why it hasn't happened yet. They were essentially giving pro leagues a checklist of things to avoid if they were going to approach the scene's players/organizers/producers, etc Up until now, leagues weren't trying to get involved and figure out what the community wants and needs, but figures in the esports community were more than happy to throw around stories about how we're holding ourselves back, which is nonsense. I don't think many of us, if any of us, are against bigger payouts, but the priority is on community over money all the way.
Incidentally, nobody in the fighting game community was even thinking about this stuff until Scoots decided to make a fool of himself on LO3 with that rant of his, basically accusing the Evo staff of intentionally holding back the community so they can be the big boys on the block. Inkblot wrote that first article in response to essentially having mud slung in his face. Before that, people were just playing games and minding our business. Fighting game chats were full of fighting game discussion, watching fighting game streams, watching sc2 streams (yes, fighting game players watch and enjoy SC2), and general whateverness.
And UltraDavid's article didn't say "here's how we can make leagues and our community work" because that wasn't the purpose of the article. Why would you even expect that? MLG isn't going to come to Ultradavid and say "hey, tell these guys what we want." The point was that they need to come to the community and find out what we want if they want to work with us. They need to do a better job of explaining their position and what they have to offer if they want to work with us. Rarely is the message from the pro-league side anything other than the fact that some fraction of a percent of our players may be able to quit their jobs, which is great for that fraction of a percent but doesn't tell the rest of us anything.
On December 15 2011 17:54 I_Love_Bacon wrote: Ironically, the point that you brush over the quickest is one I happen to actually agree with (while all of the other points you seemed to think I agreed with him about I don't). I actually think it is very territorial, even if subconscious. When the debate first really started, months ago, one of the primary things that was talked about was how people didn't want to see Spooky and other tournament organizers/casters/streamers pushed out of the loop. I think that, even if they rationalize away from that, is still in the back of their minds. I think the FGC and some of its members specifically want to succeed on their own terms so it can be used as a pedestal to prove how awesome and right they were in history's eyes. Never mind that there is an opportunity staring them in the face; if they avoid it then they can still have their day in the sun.
Now, I'm not saying they're all selfish and looking to better only their own stock. Far from it. I just happen to think that, of the arguments he posed, that one actually makes a lot of sense. Where I really backed him up was the simple idea that everybody should be striving actively to work together, not to be fearful of what could go wrong. UD obviously sees this as an option, but a lot of other members in the FGC are much, much more reserved and UD's article reads much more like a warning, rather than a hopeful or spirited message.
Yeah, once again, I wasn't saying you agreed with anything. I was pointing out how much bullcrap he was spewing and questioning how you could think he came off looking good at all, considering. And I "brushed over" this part because it had nothing to do with what I was talking about.
Jerry talked a lot about the business world--excuse, me, the *adult* business world. I wonder why he doesn't grasp simple business concepts such as risk management. Not being fearful of what could go wrong in a business dealing is, well, stupid. That's what you do in business. You evaluate risks and take or avoid action based on your assessment of that risk. If he judges that as some form of dangerous fear, well, that just goes along with all the other dumb things he apparently believes. He also doesn't seem to understand the concept of leverage, which I hear is popular in the "adult business world" as well.
Both sides should be striving to work together, you say. Well, maybe. Fighting games have grown tremendously in the last two years, and there's no indication that growth is going to stop. More streams, more media, more sponsorships, more teams, and all without any interaction with pro leagues. Is it as far along as other games? No. Is it advancing faster than other games? Hell yes. The 2012 Evo Tournament Season should be announced within a month or so. The games for Evo 2012, as well. Tournament organizers are making plans 6-12 months in advance to make this year's editions of their tournaments exponentially better than last year's. So the FGC doesn't necessarily need a pro league to grow. It can continue to do what it has been doing and grow still. Sure, it could use a league as fertilizer, but there's nothing wrong with staying organic, either.
On December 15 2011 17:54 I_Love_Bacon wrote: Where the dude on the podcast 100% hit the nail on the head is that they should be looking for a way to work together properly, not looking for reasons they can't. Ultradavid's article was not directly opposed to leagues and whatnot, obviously, but it certainly wasn't setting out good ideas on how to do things.
That's the thing: nobody is "looking for reasons they can't." That's a complete copout. Neither of the articles in question was about finding reasons not to do it. They were explaining why it hasn't happened yet. They were essentially giving pro leagues a checklist of things to avoid if they were going to approach the scene's players/organizers/producers, etc Up until now, leagues weren't trying to get involved and figure out what the community wants and needs, but figures in the esports community were more than happy to throw around stories about how we're holding ourselves back, which is nonsense. I don't think many of us, if any of us, are against bigger payouts, but the priority is on community over money all the way.
Incidentally, nobody in the fighting game community was even thinking about this stuff until Scoots decided to make a fool of himself on LO3 with that rant of his, basically accusing the Evo staff of intentionally holding back the community so they can be the big boys on the block. Inkblot wrote that first article in response to essentially having mud slung in his face. Before that, people were just playing games and minding our business. Fighting game chats were full of fighting game discussion, watching fighting game streams, watching sc2 streams (yes, fighting game players watch and enjoy SC2), and general whateverness.
And UltraDavid's article didn't say "here's how we can make leagues and our community work" because that wasn't the purpose of the article. Why would you even expect that? MLG isn't going to come to Ultradavid and say "hey, tell these guys what we want." The point was that they need to come to the community and find out what we want if they want to work with us. They need to do a better job of explaining their position and what they have to offer if they want to work with us. Rarely is the message from the pro-league side anything other than the fact that some fraction of a percent of our players may be able to quit their jobs, which is great for that fraction of a percent but doesn't tell the rest of us anything.
I think there is revisionist history being done and basically fear mongering by the part of many of the community figures and players regarding this. I don't think it's a copout at all to suggest that people are looking for reasons they can't. All you have to do is go to Shoryuken and read through the forums and find out the reasons that people disagree with joining up with MLG and some of the ridiculous stuff they worry about (including the ridiculously petty argument about possibly being lied to by Adam, which is as retarded as it is inane), while putting no effort into learning the facts. I also think to suggest that MLG in particular in the past weren't figuring out what the community wants is 100% incorrect. The way they ran both Melee/Brawl and Tekken were completely accepted by all 3 communities. They had refs, organizers, broadcasters, etc, all who were familiar with the scenes and helped organize/design how things would work. Throwing out a blanket statement that leagues weren't trying to get input I have a hard time buying unless somebody comes in with specific examples (bearing in mind that WCG and Dreamhack are not leagues). I want to hear about the time some league came and told you guys to bend over and prepare your anuses for the raping you all were about to receive, if not it's empty accusations.
The reason I say UD's article should be about how to work together is because it's productive. That is why I so largely agreed with the vVv guy's point when dealing with that particular topic. It shouldn't be about past problems. It shouldn't be about fighting for control. It shouldn't be about worries of culture clash. It should be about how do we make things better. How do we improve the FGC through joining the leagues? How would we make things actually work, instead of listing a bunch of perils and things to worry about?
I think my biggest issue with a lot of the bigger names in the FGC or people in general who disagree is because they harbor a mentality of community vs everybody else. The problem is, the actual FGC isn't that large. The thousands and thousands of people who watch streams aren't even considered members of the community that they love to watch. The "arcade mentality" doesn't even exist in most of the people who play fighting games because they died off ages ago, despite the fact that some of the longstanding members might harbor those feelings.
I like the stance that Day9 has preached for a long time about converting people to Starcraft in talking about how if somebody asks him, "Why do you like starcraft?" that he instead changes the question to, "How can you not like starcraft? It's awesome." I think that fundamental problem permeates throughout the FGC community. They want to grow, but I don't think people in the community really get why. They like where things are, and they like where things are going... But I don't think they really have this appreciation of wanting to see it blow up and even more and more people enjoy their game and respect/love what they do. The more I write and think about that point in particular the weirder it seems, but the more truthful it sounds to me. The very fact that so many people seem to struggle with figuring out what MLG/leagues offer says something deeper about the FGC. You mean, more money and the chance to have more exposure to your awesome games isn't reason enough?
Jerry talked a lot about the business world--excuse, me, the *adult* business world. I wonder why he doesn't grasp simple business concepts such as risk management. Not being fearful of what could go wrong in a business dealing is, well, stupid. That's what you do in business. You evaluate risks and take or avoid action based on your assessment of that risk. If he judges that as some form of dangerous fear, well, that just goes along with all the other dumb things he apparently believes. He also doesn't seem to understand the concept of leverage, which I hear is popular in the "adult business world" as well.
Maybe you can answer this one, because in all of my readings I've still never really found an answer that I consider remotely acceptable:
What are the risks?
The only "risks" I've read or been able to think are very, very shallow. 1: There's no hype. So the game doesn't do well, dies, and returns to exactly where it was. 2: It hurts smaller, community tournaments. So do majors. They draw people from their local scenes to play in bigger, more prestigious events... This is no different. 3: Possible conflicting dates. Work together in advance, realize that a compromise (probably on the FGC's end because MLG has much, much more to consider) is probably needed. 4: Keeping an open format. This is a very speculative argument because it's entirely fearful of a tournament structure for a game that MLG hasn't announced. 5: Fewer non-tournament games/No just free to play areas. This is simply something that can't be accommodated. There is a lack of space at MLG and the people going ahead of time just have to accept that it's going to be probably entirely about the tournament. There are still plenty of other tournaments with plenty of time/area to play at, this just probably wouldn't be one. Keep in mind, that this is also still speculation. Perhaps with the additional funding MLG will clearly be rolling in from its best year ever they'll find a way to operate on an even larger scale and include some space for f2p area.
Both sides should be striving to work together, you say. Well, maybe. Fighting games have grown tremendously in the last two years, and there's no indication that growth is going to stop. More streams, more media, more sponsorships, more teams, and all without any interaction with pro leagues. Is it as far along as other games? No. Is it advancing faster than other games? Hell yes. The 2012 Evo Tournament Season should be announced within a month or so. The games for Evo 2012, as well. Tournament organizers are making plans 6-12 months in advance to make this year's editions of their tournaments exponentially better than last year's. So the FGC doesn't necessarily need a pro league to grow. It can continue to do what it has been doing and grow still. Sure, it could use a league as fertilizer, but there's nothing wrong with staying organic, either.
Fighting games are advancing faster than MLG(not a game specifically, but as a whole because of their product) or League of Legends? I certainly wouldn't make that argument.
I think the most level-headed argument/discussion that comes from the FGC is the one you touch on lastly which basically boils down to, "Given our growth, why should we go to MLG when we can do our own thing?"
I don't get why you can't do both. I just don't see how "grow your own community" and "join mlg" are mutually exclusive. I've never understood why people can't just see as MLG as another group of tournaments they can attend, even if they're not exactly what the people are used to. The only legitimate fear I can see from that is that sponsors instead throw their money into MLG instead of the other FGC... but I'd have to think the market for both games is nearly identical and it's fairly clear that MLG simply has more to offer at this point anyway, so assuming a sponsor knows about both, the reason to toss bucks into the FGC certainly seems like a worse ROI than MLG.
One final thing I did want to mention, for the sake of the discussion since you're level headed, is that I'll retract my statement about the vVv podcast. I might disagree with Spooky's stance and his attitude, but I certainly don't agree with the other guy's stances/attitude either. I think his point of working towards unity is correct, but it's also insanely hypocritical given some of the shit he slung and his attitude about the whole thing. He was attempting to throw gasoline on the fire and succeeded.
Does the FGC absolutely need the big leagues? No. Do the big leagues need the FGC? most definitely yes. Just as much as SC2 doesnt need the leagues either but the leagues most definitely need SC2. In fact the dependance that esports has on SC2 in no way makes me happy but that's another story.
Super interesting. I know it's off-topic, but I like the EVO and MLG streams the exact same. But they are decidedly different. Sometimes I love the atmosphere that Starcraft's commentators and crowds bring to the game, but sometimes I want to see the excitement of 10,000 people going inside in a Las Vegas lobby on the EVO stream. I agree that it's tough to bring the two scenes together, but probably not impossible.
On December 16 2011 03:10 I_Love_Bacon wrote: The reason I say UD's article should be about how to work together is because it's productive. That is why I so largely agreed with the vVv guy's point when dealing with that particular topic. It shouldn't be about past problems. It shouldn't be about fighting for control. It shouldn't be about worries of culture clash. It should be about how do we make things better. How do we improve the FGC through joining the leagues? How would we make things actually work, instead of listing a bunch of perils and things to worry about?
This is productive, or at least, ends a lot of arguments. People always ask "Hey, FGs are growing exponentially, but the money isn't in it like it is with SC2. Why?" When we analyze the differences in the growth of each scene, we learn what we can and we can't do. We learn why certain things work with other games and why they don't with others. I think it's a very brazen statement to tell somebody what they were supposed to write when they did it on their own volition, to summarize arguments, and to see how to move forward while acknowledging what's different.
I think my biggest issue with a lot of the bigger names in the FGC or people in general who disagree is because they harbor a mentality of community vs everybody else. The problem is, the actual FGC isn't that large. The thousands and thousands of people who watch streams aren't even considered members of the community that they love to watch. The "arcade mentality" doesn't even exist in most of the people who play fighting games because they died off ages ago, despite the fact that some of the longstanding members might harbor those feelings.
The "arcade mentality" exists because of how local each scene is. Even when you don't have an actual arcade, those small public gatherings where you call up all your friends and play some Street Fighter, the nature of the game leads to those kinds of feelings. I also don't get how you seem to think you need some sort of membership card to be accepted in the community. If you watch a stream, talk about it with friends, etc., you ARE part of the community. It's only when outsiders who want to make their own rules and bring in their own people while disregarding the fans and what it made it popular... it's only then that people are separated into "community" and "non-community." It's like the XFL. They made their own rules and disregarded what made football popular, ended up backpedaling when their rules were dangerous and no one gave a damn about the cheerleaders locker room, and failed miserably... ignoring all the football culture in place from the NCAA and the NFL.
I like the stance that Day9 has preached for a long time about converting people to Starcraft in talking about how if somebody asks him, "Why do you like starcraft?" that he instead changes the question to, "How can you not like starcraft? It's awesome." I think that fundamental problem permeates throughout the FGC community. They want to grow, but I don't think people in the community really get why. They like where things are, and they like where things are going... But I don't think they really have this appreciation of wanting to see it blow up and even more and more people enjoy their game and respect/love what they do. The more I write and think about that point in particular the weirder it seems, but the more truthful it sounds to me. The very fact that so many people seem to struggle with figuring out what MLG/leagues offer says something deeper about the FGC. You mean, more money and the chance to have more exposure to your awesome games isn't reason enough?
I think the biggest concern that MLG has is clearing it lawfully through Capcom, which is like what Blizzard did with Brood War in Korea. (We don't care, do as you want, we don't need any contracts it's all good. Oh wait you're selling broadcasting rights? Time to jump in and sue! Money is ours! You have no contract!) That's the only thing holding them back. Most of the top players want to give it a shot and if it sucks then we can move on. The fundamental concern from the players is that the product they offer is not what we're used to. We don't want to watch some best of 7 rounds, 1 match, single elim bracket with only top players invited and no open play, commentated by a clueless Adam Sessler who has never experienced the game at this level. Whether that's going to be solved, we're not sure... but that is the main concern.
The only "risks" I've read or been able to think are very, very shallow. 2: It hurts smaller, community tournaments. So do majors. They draw people from their local scenes to play in bigger, more prestigious events... This is no different. 3: Possible conflicting dates. Work together in advance, realize that a compromise (probably on the FGC's end because MLG has much, much more to consider) is probably needed.
I think of the damage caused by players not being attend majors. I remember last year, SoCal Regionals took place on the same day as CEO. Imagine that, but now imagine that no top players attend majors. Majors get less money, meaning they can't put on good events, meaning less attendance, and it spirals downward. And if leagues turn out to be crappy or not to our liking, there will be a rebuilding period.
5: Fewer non-tournament games/No just free to play areas. This is simply something that can't be accommodated. There is a lack of space at MLG and the people going ahead of time just have to accept that it's going to be probably entirely about the tournament. There are still plenty of other tournaments with plenty of time/area to play at, this just probably wouldn't be one. Keep in mind, that this is also still speculation. Perhaps with the additional funding MLG will clearly be rolling in from its best year ever they'll find a way to operate on an even larger scale and include some space for f2p area.
I don't think is a problem given that MLG usually finds hotels that lets you plug in systems and FGC groups routinely rent out suites to host after hours events where all the open play happens. If you haven't attended Evo, basically lots of people wander the hotel rooms looking for matches.
I think overall people want to see the game blow up; they just don't want to surrender a lot of the rules and culture of the events that are currently held. Because of BW blowing up in Korea, I think people generally had an idea of how SC2 was supposed to be run for it to be successful regarding the rules and the culture. It's completely different for fighting games where every time we see a review or they try to put it on TV or something and talk about it, it's always hideously represented or reviewed and they never see it from the same perspective we do. You'll never hear someone call SC2 a button masher, and the only people who say it lacks skill are crazy BW fanatics like me. Yet you hear it routinely for any fighting game. I think it's that kind of opinion that the general public holds of fighting games and why it's absolutely essential that you integrate the current scene if you want to have any success in leagues.
Holy crap, kainzero, you just saved me like 800 words. I am literally deleting a whole bunch of stuff I was in the process of typing because you said it better, and before, I could. (It was ReveLAtions, though, not SCR. Point stands, though.)
Even if MLG allowed casual matches in the venue, they'd probably actively seek to ban "money matches", which are an important part of fighting game events. Top placing players in major events often make more money from these matches than the actual tournament winnings (especially Japanese players). Also some of the most hype matches in the history of fighting games were money matches (#1 probably being Neo vs Clockwork FT15 in MvC2).
It's just very difficult to fit the FGC culture to an organization like MLG without completely watering it down.
On December 16 2011 03:10 I_Love_Bacon wrote: I think there is revisionist history being done and basically fear mongering by the part of many of the community figures and players regarding this. I don't think it's a copout at all to suggest that people are looking for reasons they can't. All you have to do is go to Shoryuken and read through the forums and find out the reasons that people disagree with joining up with MLG and some of the ridiculous stuff they worry about (including the ridiculously petty argument about possibly being lied to by Adam, which is as retarded as it is inane), while putting no effort into learning the facts. I also think to suggest that MLG in particular in the past weren't figuring out what the community wants is 100% incorrect. The way they ran both Melee/Brawl and Tekken were completely accepted by all 3 communities. They had refs, organizers, broadcasters, etc, all who were familiar with the scenes and helped organize/design how things would work. Throwing out a blanket statement that leagues weren't trying to get input I have a hard time buying unless somebody comes in with specific examples (bearing in mind that WCG and Dreamhack are not leagues). I want to hear about the time some league came and told you guys to bend over and prepare your anuses for the raping you all were about to receive, if not it's empty accusations.
On December 16 2011 03:10 I_Love_Bacon wrote: I think my biggest issue with a lot of the bigger names in the FGC or people in general who disagree is because they harbor a mentality of community vs everybody else. The problem is, the actual FGC isn't that large. The thousands and thousands of people who watch streams aren't even considered members of the community that they love to watch. The "arcade mentality" doesn't even exist in most of the people who play fighting games because they died off ages ago, despite the fact that some of the longstanding members might harbor those feelings.
This I completely disagree with. Just because there aren't arcades doesn't mean there is no arcade spirit. That spirit migrated from actual arcades to "crack sessions" on console to tournaments of all sizes. Pass the stick is every bit as legit as putting your quarter up. You play for pride, you play to test and to prove yourself, and you earn respect through that play, and you do it all in person against another person sitting next to you. You don't have to be in an arcade to maintain that feeling, and it is incredibly different from the spectator-oriented, netplay-focused scenes of other games. I really think a lot of the misunderstanding comes from the fact that fighting games necessitate an in-person, local playing experience, and also because the community is overwhelmingly players who are active to some degree.
On December 16 2011 03:10 I_Love_Bacon wrote: I like the stance that Day9 has preached for a long time about converting people to Starcraft in talking about how if somebody asks him, "Why do you like starcraft?" that he instead changes the question to, "How can you not like starcraft? It's awesome." I think that fundamental problem permeates throughout the FGC community. They want to grow, but I don't think people in the community really get why. They like where things are, and they like where things are going... But I don't think they really have this appreciation of wanting to see it blow up and even more and more people enjoy their game and respect/love what they do. The more I write and think about that point in particular the weirder it seems, but the more truthful it sounds to me. The very fact that so many people seem to struggle with figuring out what MLG/leagues offer says something deeper about the FGC. You mean, more money and the chance to have more exposure to your awesome games isn't reason enough?
More money for whom? People talk about "the players' making more money, but that only applies really to a fraction of a percent of players. Okay, then what? How does that benefit the scene outside of those players? I don't think Tekken@MLG was a bad experience overall, but I know that Aris has said that players stopped wanting to go to non-MLG events because they could only travel so much, and the money was better. When MLG dropped Tekken, they were back to square one, only with more of the game's life lost. It doesn't appear they gained any significant number of new players from the whole thing, either.
Honestly, a lot of players don't care that much about exposure if it doesn't help the scene. I know that, right now, if I go to a tournament and Justin Wong is there, I have a chance to play him, whether we meet in tournament or in casuals. It doesn't matter that he's a legend. Until KO appears on the screen, we're equals. That most likely doesn't happen at an MLG. The degree to which those experiences are limited is up for debate, but it would unquestionably be more restricted.
I also know that community majors are great to go to because I know I will be in a room full of people who love fighting games, playing fighting games. Also, because I've been to them. when I went to Final Round 2 and a half years ago, which was my first major tournament, there were side tournaments in lots of other games. I got games in in things I've been wanting to play with people for years but couldn't because the local scene was limited and netplay is still pretty bad. People go to majors to test themselves and to find new people to play against, in and out of tournament. People who don't even play the big games go because when people who love fighters gather, there are almost always going to be some chances to play other games that you do play, even if they aren't in an official tournament.
Case in point: Frieda is one of the best Japanese MvC3 players. He's also the Japanese national champion in another game called Daemon's Bride, and was an SBO top finisher in Arcana Heart 2 and 3. At Evo this year there was an Arcana Heart 3 side tournament. Frieda was the victor, but he had a tough fight. So, the largest AH3 tournament on American soil, featuring a Japanese elite player, was only able to happen because the scene's largest event is such an ardent supporter of all fighting games, even those that aren't featured in the tournament. That's a scenario that could never happen at a league event.
You can say "yeah, well, you can go to your own tournaments, they're not going anywhere." Maybe so, but they could take players from the other tournaments. It's bad enough when majors within our scene are in conflict like ReveLAtions and CEO were last year. Having an outside organization waving big checks at top players holds an inherent risk to those community events, their attendance, and their growth. Note I am not saying this is an insurmountable obstacle, but it most certainly exists.
On December 16 2011 03:10 I_Love_Bacon wrote: Maybe you can answer this one, because in all of my readings I've still never really found an answer that I consider remotely acceptable:
What are the risks?
The only "risks" I've read or been able to think are very, very shallow. 1: There's no hype. So the game doesn't do well, dies, and returns to exactly where it was. 2: It hurts smaller, community tournaments. So do majors. They draw people from their local scenes to play in bigger, more prestigious events... This is no different. 3: Possible conflicting dates. Work together in advance, realize that a compromise (probably on the FGC's end because MLG has much, much more to consider) is probably needed. 4: Keeping an open format. This is a very speculative argument because it's entirely fearful of a tournament structure for a game that MLG hasn't announced. 5: Fewer non-tournament games/No just free to play areas. This is simply something that can't be accommodated. There is a lack of space at MLG and the people going ahead of time just have to accept that it's going to be probably entirely about the tournament. There are still plenty of other tournaments with plenty of time/area to play at, this just probably wouldn't be one. Keep in mind, that this is also still speculation. Perhaps with the additional funding MLG will clearly be rolling in from its best year ever they'll find a way to operate on an even larger scale and include some space for f2p area.
1. In my opinion this is relatively small, but I don't think you can dismiss the atmosphere players prefer to play in as "very, very shallow." 2. I have no idea how you come to this conclusion. FGC tournaments are like a pyramid. Evo is at the top, majors on the next level, regionals on another level, and local tournaments and gatherings at the bottom. Majors are kind of the point. Local scenes want to go to majors and play against more, better players. This is how the scene as a whole improves. It's not through tournament play alone, either. It's through casuals, money matches, long sets, and stuff like that that go on off stream and after hours. Community tournaments are the ideal training ground, especially in a country with such a geographical spread. 3. Obviously working around schedules would be necessary, but there's only so much MLG can do since they run several different games of different types with different scenes. 4. I feel somewhat confident they would go with a full open bracket, knowing that's what the FGC believes in. 5. As noted above, this is a much bigger deal for most of the actual playing scene than I think the average spectator can appreciate.
On December 16 2011 03:10 I_Love_Bacon wrote: Fighting games are advancing faster than MLG(not a game specifically, but as a whole because of their product) or League of Legends? I certainly wouldn't make that argument.
In the last two years, tournament attendance has increased three to tenfold, international attendance has increased dramatically, stream views have multiplied by up to twenty times, Evo attendance topping 3000 and millions of stream views, etc. Yes, I would say that is a higher rate of growth than in other games. Note I didn't say all other games. I'm just emphasizing that it's a very fast rate of growth.
On December 16 2011 03:10 I_Love_Bacon wrote: I think the most level-headed argument/discussion that comes from the FGC is the one you touch on lastly which basically boils down to, "Given our growth, why should we go to MLG when we can do our own thing?"
I don't get why you can't do both. I just don't see how "grow your own community" and "join mlg" are mutually exclusive. I've never understood why people can't just see as MLG as another group of tournaments they can attend, even if they're not exactly what the people are used to. The only legitimate fear I can see from that is that sponsors instead throw their money into MLG instead of the other FGC... but I'd have to think the market for both games is nearly identical and it's fairly clear that MLG simply has more to offer at this point anyway, so assuming a sponsor knows about both, the reason to toss bucks into the FGC certainly seems like a worse ROI than MLG.
Nobody's really saying you can't do both. I really don't understand that interpretation. The point is, and has always been, that if you want us to do both (because we are not going to give up on what we have), you have to come to us and show us that you care about our needs and concerns. We don't want to throw Final Round under the bus because a league wants one of our games. We don't want to show up and play under random or screwy rules. And more importantly, we don't have to, so it only makes sense to entertain that possibility if it's clearly to our benefit.
As to the last sentence, I think you just answered your own question. I would much rather sponsors throw money at Larry at Final Round, who has been busting his ass for 15 years putting on awesome tournaments for players to compete in. If a sponsor would rather give money to MLG, that doesn't help Larry at all. The answer, to me, is not "go to MLG because that's where the money is," but rather, "Help Larry, and Jebailey, and Valle, and Choi, and Keits, and Big E make their tournaments so big, so amazing that sponsors can't ignore them." That's harder to do if there's a fractured community. Mind you, I'm not saying that there WOULD be a fractured community. But it's possible, and it's not just a remote possibility, either.
If the top players are isolated from the rest of the community, the scene overall is hurt. It hurts other games that may not be as popular as the big two or three but also have followings as well. And, eventually, it could end up hurting those American top players' chances against international players. It's easy to say that our players would be able to compete at a higher level if they could quit their jobs and just play all day. That doesn't explain why Japan's median skill level is far above America's, even though their players are almost all working, in school, or both. Japan can't even legally have cash prizes for tournaments like the US can. Clearly money has next to nothing to do with why they're so strong. Who's to say money will make our players significantly stronger?
On December 16 2011 03:10 I_Love_Bacon wrote: One final thing I did want to mention, for the sake of the discussion since you're level headed, is that I'll retract my statement about the vVv podcast. I might disagree with Spooky's stance and his attitude, but I certainly don't agree with the other guy's stances/attitude either. I think his point of working towards unity is correct, but it's also insanely hypocritical given some of the shit he slung and his attitude about the whole thing. He was attempting to throw gasoline on the fire and succeeded.
Thank you. That was my initial point of contention, and I'm glad you now see where I was coming from.
On December 16 2011 03:10 I_Love_Bacon wrote:The reason I say UD's article should be about how to work together is because it's productive. That is why I so largely agreed with the vVv guy's point when dealing with that particular topic. It shouldn't be about past problems. It shouldn't be about fighting for control. It shouldn't be about worries of culture clash. It should be about how do we make things better. How do we improve the FGC through joining the leagues?
What an awful series of points, especially that last question. If someone who hasn't worked well with me in the past wants to work with me in the future, then I'm going to bring up the problems I had in the past and ask how this person is going to approach them and make sure they don't happen in the future. If I've worked for 20 years to build something and now someone else wants to get in on what I've done and take some of my control away, then I'm going to ask why that would make sense from my perspective, what's in it for me? If my culture hasn't gotten along with another culture very well and now our two cultures might be thrown together again, I'm going to highlight the differences between the two and their historical underpinnings so that everyone can understand each other better and figure out how to clash less.
And lastly, the question "How do we improve the FGC through joining the leagues" is a million miles away from where we are right now. Our question is only "How do we improve the FGC?" That's all. Your question assumes or implies a ton of things, not least that joining the leagues is the only way to improve, that the FGC has done a crappy job on its own, and that professional leagues are good for us. I wholeheartedly disagree with the first two. I think we're doing an awesome job. I think we'll keep doing an awesome job. I think we can improve on our own. As for the third, they can be good for us if they understand us and are willing to work with us in a way that maintains our identity, but if they don't, they can be bad for us. This is very important to understand.
I didn't write an article about ways that we could work together because that's not my focus right now. My focus is just about making sure that everyone understands everyone else. Understanding is the foundation of any successful cooperation, but it can also be a reason to not work together if both sides understand that they might not be able to get along. I think we CAN have a successful cooperation, and if the FGC as a whole or Capcom thinks we should do it and we're sure the pro leagues understand us and will cooperate well with us, then great! That would be great. But we're not starting anywhere near the idea that we need to work with pro leagues instead of keeping up what we're doing.
Why did I like Street Fighter even before I realized it was a strategy game?
There are online StarCraft 2 tournaments that can reach over 1000 people because the game is designed for and people expect to play on the internet. I’ve never entered an online tournament in my life and probably never will. What’s the point? To me, online play is ass.
So even though I’ve never touched Arcana Heart in my life, I still feel a sense of connection with AH players.[then later] Smash players tend not to have our arcade history,
How many AH arcades are around you, if any? (For those who don't know, Arcana Heart is a fighting game with only cartoon underage girls).
"But let me tell you a little about some of the other major people in this community. A couple have spent time living on the streets or in homeless shelters. A couple others have been in jail. Another was a drug addict famous for not paying people back. Actually, a few of them were like that. Some had really bad family situations with abuse, theft, jail, abandonment, and so on.
Again, if I’ve never seen you in this arcade before, then you’ve never earned my respect and it’s on you to give me reason to say what’s up.
Common decency or class too much to ask for? How hard is it to say "Hello" or shake the hand of a player that share the same passion for the game.
StarCraft had a weird community in North America during Brood War because even though very large numbers of people played or watched it regularly (including me), it didn’t engender the same attachment to community. It ran online tournaments with entrants into the 1000s, but they were online, where a sense of community is relatively weak.
Whereas, TeamLiquid tournament, WCG, etc just only had a sense of community from their supporting COUNTRIES.
Fighting games have consoles, monitors, sticks, pads, gaming related apparel, and lifestyle brands. That’s all!
With all this in mind, then, it’s not exactly rocket science that StarCraft blew up first. And in blowing up first, they’ve cracked into a market of pure spectators, people who never played Brood War and don’t play StarCraft 2 but watch SC2 broadcasts anyway. Those people have money and time on their hands and they represent even more money in everyone else’s pockets. Fighting games haven’t gotten anything like that yet.
Why don't they watch fighting games? Maybe they prefer watching Starcraft.
Some people think that our window of opportunity is now. If we don’t join up with professional leagues soon, they say, those leagues won’t want us in the future. I honestly don’t know what about our history and current trajectory makes anyone think this sounds right. After such consistent growth, why would we all of a sudden stop growing?
Was I jealous when I heard that commentators for other games can make up to $5000 per appearance while I’m over here working for gas money? Sure, but not nearly as much as you might think. I’m too in love with my community to wish I could trade places, and so is everyone else in the FGC.
On December 16 2011 03:10 I_Love_Bacon wrote:The reason I say UD's article should be about how to work together is because it's productive. That is why I so largely agreed with the vVv guy's point when dealing with that particular topic. It shouldn't be about past problems. It shouldn't be about fighting for control. It shouldn't be about worries of culture clash. It should be about how do we make things better. How do we improve the FGC through joining the leagues?
What an awful series of points, especially that last question. If someone who hasn't worked well with me in the past wants to work with me in the future, then I'm going to bring up the problems I had in the past and ask how this person is going to approach them and make sure they don't happen in the future. If I've worked for 20 years to build something and now someone else wants to get in on what I've done and take some of my control away, then I'm going to ask why that would make sense from my perspective, what's in it for me? If my culture hasn't gotten along with another culture very well and now our two cultures might be thrown together again, I'm going to highlight the differences between the two and their historical underpinnings so that everyone can understand each other better and figure out how to clash less.
And lastly, the question "How do we improve the FGC through joining the leagues" is a million miles away from where we are right now. Our question is only "How do we improve the FGC?" That's all. Your question assumes or implies a ton of things, not least that joining the leagues is the only way to improve, that the FGC has done a crappy job on its own, and that professional leagues are good for us. I wholeheartedly disagree with the first two. I think we're doing an awesome job. I think we'll keep doing an awesome job. I think we can improve on our own. As for the third, they can be good for us if they understand us and are willing to work with us in a way that maintains our identity, but if they don't, they can be bad for us. This is very important to understand.
I didn't write an article about ways that we could work together because that's not my focus right now. My focus is just about making sure that everyone understands everyone else. Understanding is the foundation of any successful cooperation, but it can also be a reason to not work together if both sides understand that they might not be able to get along. I think we CAN have a successful cooperation, and if the FGC as a whole or Capcom thinks we should do it and we're sure the pro leagues understand us and will cooperate well with us, then great! That would be great. But we're not starting anywhere near the idea that we need to work with pro leagues instead of keeping up what we're doing.
<3 Warp!
You sure put a lot of interpretation into "How do we improve the FGC through joining the leagues?" I don't think it's close to million miles away from where you are. I think you're merely misinterpreting what I mean at the very base level. I also didn't imply any of the things you seemed to suggest I did. How can the FGC take an opportunity like MLG or other leagues and use it to benefit themselves? That should be the question from the FGC's standpoint. Not a pessimistic approach as to how MLG is gonna' fuck something up, but how can we use this collaboration for our benefits? But the last part I've bolded is a part I'm still waiting for a legitimate explanation of. I've been waiting since this whole debate started to heat up months ago for a single real answer as to how it can be bad for the FGC. I'd expect you to have a coherent answer and I'd love to read it, because up until this point I've neither read nor heard a legitimate argument as to how it can be damaging to the FGC.
This also goes to the defensive aspect that I seriously see a lot of in the FGC. You throw up your shield and deflect the discussion to how great you're doing on your own. It's laudable and I don't mean that to sound at all condescending. But you immediately guard and point out that you've worked for years and ask why you should give up control? That shouldn't even be a question. MLG isn't taking over other tournaments and making everybody follow their rules, they're simply attempting to run their own tournament. I'm not stupid enough to accuse you or anybody else of being blatant obstructionists, but there is a sort of mentality that I've talked about where it constantly reads like a battle of Us-vs-Them. And, it also reads a lot like the argument that there are people who are specifically guarding their own stock in the community; not the community as a whole. Inadvertently or not, it definitely exists.
Your last paragraph is correct; that is not the article you wrote. Perhaps that's where a lot of these problems lie. I suppose I, and many others for that matter, are disappointed at what you didn't write: a long, fleshed out and in-depth examination as to why OR why not it should be done. You chose not to tackle that directly at the time, and perhaps it would've been better for everybody to merely abstain from debating about it and using the article for any purpose that was not as you described it as... information.
EPT
