Mod Note: This is a fantastic article. It may look a bit tl;dr at first, but i really encourage you to sit down and read through when you get a chance. Raises a lot of interesting questions. - Kennigit
A description of the article: "Fighting game commentator Ultradavid has written an incredibly in-depth piece on the origins of fighting game culture and how it compares to that of other gaming communities. It’s a thought-provoking examination of how we got to where we are, and potentially where we are going in the future"
----
As someone interested in competitive gaming and "esports" in general, this is a beautiful read by one of the figure-heads from the FGC (Fighting Game Community) named UltraDavid.
UltraDavid is a veteran commentator of the FGC with a firm grasp on origins of his community. He's a lawyer and viewed as one of the more "successful" people involved in their community. He also expresses his views on the ESPORTS movement of StarCraft 2 compared to their own competitive gaming scene.
In fact, the entire basis of this article compares every aspect of the "other" most popular competitive gaming scene, and in some ways, how they've learned from the SC2 community in terms of dealing with the business side of things.
I highly recommend everyone to take a moment to read this, it's kind of sobering to see how lucky we (the StarCraft community) are to have had as many talented and business-savvy community members contribute to the movement, as well as a Game Developer that has built and supported this community from the ground-up.
He even goes on to mention that Fighting Games "are not esports" and would not prefer them be considered so. The backgrounds from which their scene originated are much different than the online community of SC2 and doesn't think their scenes share similarities as other online gaming scenes do with SC2.
----
It's pretty damn long, but like I mentioned before, an excellent read. I've read a lot of negative feedback previously from tournaments streaming FGC matches in-between SC2 rounds.
Personally, I enjoy watching some of the quick, clutch matches like when a player comes back from being on his LAST of 3 characters to beat an opponent that seemed to dominate the his first two with ease. The commentary isn't up to par with the Tastosis and Day9's of SC2, but I have a feeling they'll catch up pretty soon.
[TL'DR] UltraDavid feels the fighting gaming community isn't under the same tent as "esports" and would rather they be left separate. Their community has learned of the benefits from video streaming, PODcasts, youtube, and corporate sponsorships from StarCraft 2 but doesn't think the two communities could ever co-exist under the same moniker because of a variety of reasons (mostly, the backgrounds from which their community originated).
I've read a lot of negative feedback previously from tournaments streaming FGC matches in-between SC2 rounds.
I wouldn't worry about that. DH deliberately injected the finals of SF between SC2 matches and it was received negatively because it was unexpected. Totally understandable if someone tried to broadcast Starcraft during a fighting game tourney. Personally I don't mind either, but I see why (a few) people did not like it; some are esports fans, some just want to watch Starcraft.
Fighting Game Community? More like Capcom Game Community.
Honestly, I'm surprised by the way many of them have responded to talk about being in leagues, somehow they think that "assimilating" will destroy their community, but all their claims of why this would happen are completely unfounded. I really hope they wake up and see what joining bigger leagues like MLG can do for their community and most of all, their pro players.
I don't think I agree with any of it. It makes the starcraft community out to be lucky and that fighting games are deeply engaging? Let me tell you this: I've watched THOUSANDS of hours of starcraft, and yet even after all those hours I still get perplexed by the new ways the game is being played. Is there really a thousand hours of entertainment of me watching guys kill each other in unique, complex combos?
Honestly I don't think so and for this purpose I DONT believe fighting games are well suited for spectating at all beyond the same way you'll have an introduction band to a large concert.
There was a part mentioned about how Blizzard is the sole reason our community exploded so quickly and that Capcom is a Japanese-based company that has no involvement with the competitive scene what-so-ever.
This is partly true, being that, MLG works with Blizzard directly in promoting our scene while MLG has attempted to inject themselves in the Fighting Game Community but was met with hostility from Evo loyalists, as UltraDavid mentioned in his article, worried that EVO and their community events be over-shadowed by a multi-gaming super-event (such as MLG).
I like watching/playing fighting games and would love to see that scene explode into something huge.
That said, I don't see what the problem is with having them at MLG. From what I understand, the fighting game community doesn't want the exposure or to be mainstream? How is it different the way that community evolved? We are all gamers. To a certain extent we are all the same. We all share a passion for gaming. I don't get it. Honestly, fuck them then. Don your hipster glasses and go play your little tournaments over there all by youselves. When the eSports scene blows up bigger than what it already is, and the world really starts to take notice, maybe you'll realize the mistake you made of shunning us.
I see this as we are all in it together and it can only help to grow the community to have different games involved. Why wouldn't you want to be a part of something like that? People confuse me man.
On December 13 2011 16:59 ICarrotU wrote: Fighting Game Community? More like Capcom Game Community.
Honestly, I'm surprised by the way many of them have responded to talk about being in leagues, somehow they think that "assimilating" will destroy their community, but all their claims of why this would happen are completely unfounded. I really hope they wake up and see what joining bigger leagues like MLG can do for their community and most of all, their pro players.
You say that derisively, as if it's something to look down on. But isn't the RTS community really just a part of the Blizzard community? When was the last time any other non-Blizzard RTS was relevant in tournaments?
Both SNK and Arksys are doing well within the Fighting Game community, even if Capcom is hyper-dominant. Warner Bro's MK9 and Namco's Soul Calibur 5 have gotten a decent amount of attention.
I was watching the Wednesday Night Fights stream when UltraDavid mentioned the basis for this article. He wants the scene to get bigger, everyone does, but it seems like it may be a little too much of a culture shock for the FGC to enter the mainstream eSports. Complexity and Evil Geniuses have already established their FG divisions, but the tournaments are just so much smaller.
Maybe it has something to do with Japan; Tougeki Super Battle Opera tournaments have demonstration of skill that can almost rival the BW scene, but the publicity was never as big. Capcom hasn't made the attempts Blizzard has to establish itself in eSports, and there was no national organization trying to make it big like Kespa.
Competitive Fighting Game Communities have developed/evolved differently from the rest of eSports, and that difference is why UltraDavid seemingly wrote that article.
On December 13 2011 17:40 theBALLS wrote: I agree that fighting games can never be under the tenet of eSports in general.
It doesn't fall under the category of an "e-sport" which I define as a competitive activity that a significant number of people are able to appreciate as a spectator.
Unlike RTS games, fighting games lack the strategical depth that makes a game "watchable". I've been playing fighting games for as long as I can remember, much longer than I have with RTSes; but I will never be able to appreciate watching a fighting game like I do with SC2.
There's a significant amount of "strategic depth" involved in fighting games, but it takes a person to immerse themselves in fighting game fundamentals to really see it.
There is resource management, there is spacing/map control, there is timing, and there are punishment opportunities. It's just often very fast paced and easy to miss if you aren't experienced. There is no Day[9] in the fighting game community, but James Chen and UltraDavid are both very good commentators to listen to when you have little experience with fighting games and often commentate on the WNF streams.
I agree that fighting games can never be under the tenet of eSports in general.
It doesn't fall under the category of an "e-sport" which I define as a competitive activity that a significant number of people are able to appreciate as a spectator.
Unlike RTS games, fighting games lack the strategical depth that makes a game "watchable". I've been playing fighting games for as long as I can remember, much longer than I have with RTSes; but I will never be able to appreciate watching a fighting game like I do with SC2.
Breaking away from eSports would serve them well, I feel. Fighting game spectatorship is a much more niche community than that of other video games. Catering specifically to this niche group would serve their community much more effectively than trying to serve fighting games + other video games under an umbrella called eSports.
Also, I sort of understand his pain of having "fighting game community" coming from very different backgrounds as compared to the RTS community. To make an extremely skewed exaggeration, the RTS community consists of the more "elitist" group of gamers who favour depth over action, and vice versa for the fighting gamers. It's sort of like a Jock vs Nerd high-school thing going on. Oil and water; it's hard to click.
On December 13 2011 17:40 theBALLS wrote: I agree that fighting games can never be under the tenet of eSports in general.
It doesn't fall under the category of an "e-sport" which I define as a competitive activity that a significant number of people are able to appreciate as a spectator.
Unlike RTS games, fighting games lack the strategical depth that makes a game "watchable". I've been playing fighting games for as long as I can remember, much longer than I have with RTSes; but I will never be able to appreciate watching a fighting game like I do with SC2.
I can appreciate your opinon, but let me say this. Action over strategy you say. Well in that case, how does that differ from an FPS? They are pretty same in that regard, yet there is a strong following with FPS games in tournaments and spectatorship.
From another point of view, I actually think there is more stratgey involved in a fighting game than you give credit for. I look at it almost like watching a boxing match or an MMA event. In a high level game, there is a decision making process underlying every move that is made, whether it be to lure an opponent into making a mistake, or to trick them into thinking one thing is coming only to hit them with something else. It's a fast paced game of chess, which last time I checked was a stratgey game. I for one think it's exciting to watch and I think many would agree with me if it were presented to them. Just my .02
On December 13 2011 17:40 theBALLS wrote: I agree that fighting games can never be under the tenet of eSports in general.
It doesn't fall under the category of an "e-sport" which I define as a competitive activity that a significant number of people are able to appreciate as a spectator.
Unlike RTS games, fighting games lack the strategical depth that makes a game "watchable". I've been playing fighting games for as long as I can remember, much longer than I have with RTSes; but I will never be able to appreciate watching a fighting game like I do with SC2.
I can appreciate your opinon, but let me say this. Action over strategy you say. Well in that case, how does that differ from an FPS? They are pretty same in that regard, yet there is a strong following with FPS games in tournaments and spectatorship.
From another point of view, I actually think there is more stratgey involved in a fighting game than you give credit for. I look at it almost like watching a boxing match or an MMA event. In a high level game, there is a decision making process underlying every move that is made, whether it be to lure an opponent into making a mistake, or to trick them into thinking one thing is coming only to hit them with something else. It's a fast paced game of chess, which last time I checked was a stratgey game. I for one think it's exciting to watch and I think many would agree with me if it were presented to them.
I was thinking about FPS games as I was writing my post as well, you bring up a good point
FPS games can be considered an eSport to me, although I don't enjoy them personally, because in my opinion they have a lot more depth than fighting games. People appreciate FPSes because of team dynamics. Things would be very different for FPS gaming spectatorship if it was 1 vs 1 FPS gaming (i.e no dynamics, no depth, incredibly boring). Because of team play in FPS games, it brings about a lot of strategy in addition to the action, therefore giving it depth, therefore making it "watchable".
I agree with your points of strategy in fighting games. The problem is that they happen so fast, that it's so hard to commentate on. Without good commentary, it's going to be boring. Also, the number of strategies are restricted. Tricking your opponent into this, luring into a mistake; it all revolves around the same axis. It gets old after awhile, whereas in RTS gaming, new strategies develop all the time.
Kinda depressing but I agree. I'm a fighting gamer at heart, will always be. Fighting game tournaments are always very rowdy. People who attend seem to be in a lower social-economic bracket than those who attend MLG.
I've been to a number of gamestop midnight releases: marvel vs capcom 3, call of duty and starcraft. The crowd for each is so unique!
MvC3 has mostly ...stereotypical nerd fans, most of which did not look like they fit into social norms Starcraft2's release had a very diverse group, but definitely more mainstream Call of Duty's release had mainly young men, who dressed very nicely...
Just give it time. A lot of what the article says is true, and I don't blame the "fighting game community" for it not blowing up like sc2. I'm actually surprised that fighters aren't more popular, but I guess that happens when your game's developer doesn't throw 1 million dollar tournaments. Fighting games fighting~
On December 13 2011 17:20 Exempt. wrote: I don't think I agree with any of it. It makes the starcraft community out to be lucky and that fighting games are deeply engaging? Let me tell you this: I've watched THOUSANDS of hours of starcraft, and yet even after all those hours I still get perplexed by the new ways the game is being played. Is there really a thousand hours of entertainment of me watching guys kill each other in unique, complex combos?
Honestly I don't think so and for this purpose I DONT believe fighting games are well suited for spectating at all beyond the same way you'll have an introduction band to a large concert.
I believe you're passing off fighting games strategic values because of a lack of knowledge of them at a competitive level. You've watched thousands of hours of Starcraft and yet still there are new ways to play the game, but is this the standard that everything must be held to when becoming suitable for spectating? Soccer has been played for over a hundred years and is now the largest spectator sport in the world, how often when watching a game do you find yourself perplexed by the way "they're just running around and kicking the ball"?
On December 13 2011 17:39 silencefc wrote: You say that derisively, as if it's something to look down on. But isn't the RTS community really just a part of the Blizzard community? When was the last time any other non-Blizzard RTS was relevant in tournaments?
Both SNK and Arksys are doing well within the Fighting Game community, even if Capcom is hyper-dominant. Warner Bro's MK9 and Namco's Soul Calibur 5 have gotten a decent amount of attention.
I was watching the Wednesday Night Fights stream when UltraDavid mentioned the basis for this article. He wants the scene to get bigger, everyone does, but it seems like it may be a little too much of a culture shock for the FGC to enter the mainstream eSports. Complexity and Evil Geniuses have already established their FG divisions, but the tournaments are just so much smaller.
Maybe it has something to do with Japan; Tougeki Super Battle Opera tournaments have demonstration of skill that can almost rival the BW scene, but the publicity was never as big. Capcom hasn't made the attempts Blizzard has to establish itself in eSports, and there was no national organization trying to make it big like Kespa.
Competitive Fighting Game Communities have developed/evolved differently from the rest of eSports, and that difference is why UltraDavid seemingly wrote that article
I was being sarcastic, but yes, I agree, Blizzard is the only company competent enough to make competitively viable RTS games.
On December 13 2011 16:59 ICarrotU wrote: Fighting Game Community? More like Capcom Game Community.
Honestly, I'm surprised by the way many of them have responded to talk about being in leagues, somehow they think that "assimilating" will destroy their community, but all their claims of why this would happen are completely unfounded. I really hope they wake up and see what joining bigger leagues like MLG can do for their community and most of all, their pro players.
On December 13 2011 16:59 ICarrotU wrote: Fighting Game Community? More like Capcom Game Community.
Honestly, I'm surprised by the way many of them have responded to talk about being in leagues, somehow they think that "assimilating" will destroy their community, but all their claims of why this would happen are completely unfounded. I really hope they wake up and see what joining bigger leagues like MLG can do for their community and most of all, their pro players.
Did you even read the article?
Yes, hence me saying many of them have responded, especially when agreeing with this article. This has been the only level-headed article I've read in reply to this FGC-eSports situation that has been buzzing lately. I'll spare you the research and let you know that the vocal majority (including quite a few community figures) have been completely against co-operating with claims that leagues will single-highhandedly dismantle their community with....a new tournament every 2 months. While David says that he can understand their reasoning, they're still confused with the situation and that joining leagues will not ruin the community.
The problem with ESPORTS for FGC is that they want to grow, but they don't want to change. That's not an unreasonable demand, especially since EVO and their own tournaments have been growing without the help of MLG. Fighting games are waaaay more hype, way more intimate and way more confrontational, and MLG history shows what happens when they start playing Tekken, DoA and Brawl... and they do not want that to happen again.
Finally read the whole thing, then saw the TLDR in the bottom (Doh!).
I dont really play other games other than SC2 and CS so it's really nice to get some perspective from other games. It was interesting to read about the cultural differences in different scenes, I definitely feel like a "Nick" in that article because what I enjoy about StarCraft is that our demographic doesn't seem as "frat" as those from other games. It makes me feel comfortable as a nerdy guy to go to SC2 tournaments because everyone sort of has the same expectations, "sit down and watch then go ape shit when its appropriate."
I've always hated the FGC with a passion. They seem way more elitist than anyone else and their personalities are all pretty horrible for the most part.
Also I have never been able to find the fun in playing fighting games competitively, so that doesn't help my outlook on these people. They are fun to play and watch but I could never imagine sitting around hammering out 1 combo or something for hours, where is the fun in that? I have a friend that used to be a competitive Melee player but I feel Melee is completely different (in a GREAT way) from other fighting games.
But I don't think the FGC can keep growing on its own, eSports doesn't need them but they will need us if they actually want to expand.
On December 13 2011 20:52 Turbogangsta wrote: wow why dont our pros/casters have casual matches with spectaters more often i just realised how awesome that is
Because the Pros/Casters are too good for the rabble.
Definitely a good read, and makes me hopeful that the FGC can keep doing it's thing without getting shit on by some corporation that just wants a quick buck.
Hm... I think he misses the main problem and is himself also part of it. He dismisses online play and sees it as not "natural" to fighting games. Now I understand his doubts due to the lag associated with it, that’s a problem that needs to be fixed somehow, but as long as the people need to go to an arcade to play competitively the FGC will never grow BIG. As much as I would and others do like to play againt the local champ in person, it's just not feasible at many places. It is mandatory for E-Sports to have the possibility to be competitively played from home, there is NO ESport that is played "mainly" in a LAN/Live environment. I don't know about the US but Arcades seem basically non existant to me here (as is the FGC... But that could just be my "blindness"...).
I also learned something more from this article: The majority of the people in the FGC seems to be: A: Poor. B: Criminal C: Homeless D: More than one of the above . E: White and therefore successful in live by default O_o.
I mean common... I can't be as bad as the article makes it out to be?
On December 13 2011 20:52 Turbogangsta wrote: wow why dont our pros/casters have casual matches with spectaters more often i just realised how awesome that is
Because the Pros/Casters are too good for the rabble.
Of course, that has to be it. Our casters and pros are completely disconnected from the community and are too good for playing little games with the plebs.
Whats the point/fun of playing against someone that just will dismantle you (when your not training)? I never understood that and never will. Seriously, all i would feel when playing against some high profile progamer would be stupidity because it would look like this:
A: We both play normal and he just mauls me. B: I try some cheese to have a very tiny chance of winning. C: He is restricting himself like mad and I could just as well play against someone of my own skill and have a better game.
My experience with the FGC is pretty limited, but quite frankly, the article takes a very narrow-minded approach. Despite everything the author mentions, some of which I don't agree with, beat-em-ups have one decisive advantage over RTS games when it comes to popularizing them:
Everybody immediately understands what's going on, and judging the score is as easy as looking at two red bars on top of the screen. Compared to that, in order to appreciate competitors duking it out in a top-level RTS game, you have to be a fucking sage...
On December 13 2011 23:00 Velr wrote: Whats the point/fun of playing against someone that just will dismantle you (when your not training)? I never understood that and never will. Seriously, all i would feel when playing against some high profile progamer would be stupidity because it would look like this:
A: We both play normal and he just mauls me. B: I try some cheese to have a very tiny chance of winning. C: He is restricting himself like mad and I could just as well play against someone of my own skill and have a better game.
your missing a point i see. imagine going to a live event and being luky enough to get on a machine to play your favorite pro gamer. i would love to even if i lost and im sure the pros could have fun doing it by playing rediculous strategies just for fun. i would love to be able to tell my friends i got to play a match against my favorite player. its not about winning its about interaction
Then i much rather play some Microwar or other "fungame against them. Well, i'm not a big "fan" person in the first place but I really don't see the point in having a "serious" game against a pro... Having an FFA while chatting around and stuff could be fun.
I've read a lot of negative feedback previously from tournaments streaming FGC matches in-between SC2 rounds.
I wouldn't worry about that. DH deliberately injected the finals of SF between SC2 matches and it was received negatively because it was unexpected. Totally understandable if someone tried to broadcast Starcraft during a fighting game tourney. Personally I don't mind either, but I see why (a few) people did not like it; some are esports fans, some just want to watch Starcraft.
If anyone read the schedule long before the final it should not come as a surprise.
I have to say, hes fucking right on the money when he says at the end that "esports" is a dumb word. It honestly makes me cringe.
That said, I think he is trying to show differences that arnt actually that relevant. I can accept his word that the games we've seen in WCG, ESWC, the foundations for traditional competative gaming, have fostered a scene that is not the same as the fighting games. However they seem to be used to argue the point "Why we're acting dumb" not "Why our actions are not dumb" if you'll allow me to be crude. I think this is really highlighted by the passage about teams like EG and coL picking up players and being greeted with what seems to amount to suspicion and fear rather than complaints based on anything thats actually happened.
As far as their tournament circuit goes, I think he's right, they dont need any help, they have some sweet events. BUT, if people want to pick up their games then they ought realise that they are going to want to pick them up in a way that engages with the current fighting game audience. I think the anal calls for proffesionalism thrown about by the sc2 scene is perhaps a slight factor in their concerns here, but they shouldnt be. Ultimately, if another tournament was to pick up streetfighter its not because they want to cater to teamliquid visitors, its because they are trying to cater to streetfighter demographic and if what sells to those guys are louder and more raw then those tournaments arnt gonna ignore that. And if they did, shit they deserve to fail.
On December 13 2011 22:45 Velr wrote: Hm... I think he misses the main problem and is himself also part of it. He dismisses online play and sees it as not "natural" to fighting games. Now I understand his doubts due to the lag associated with it, that’s a problem that needs to be fixed somehow, but as long as the people need to go to an arcade to play competitively the FGC will never grow BIG. As much as I would and others do like to play againt the local champ in person, it's just not feasible at many places. It is mandatory for E-Sports to have the possibility to be competitively played from home, there is NO ESport that is played "mainly" in a LAN/Live environment. I don't know about the US but Arcades seem basically non existant to me here (as is the FGC... But that could just be my "blindness"...).
See BroodWar and PC Bangs; thats where the clans and progaming teams come from.
FPS and LAN Parties.
Korean training houses.
It is true that players use network play to practice. Fighting Game players do it as well, even before it was officially supported by the game companies. However, for an actual community foundation to develop organically, you need LAN/Local play. Thats where the game will really develop.
Network play brings breadth, but local play brings depth, roots, and a solid foundation.
The weakest point of ESPORTS is that it has no depth. It is tethered to the will of the developing company. As soon as Blizzard deems Starcraft 2 obsolete, all they have is to cut the money and Starcraft 2 is done on behalf of the next game. This is what largely happened to the foreign Brood War scene.
Korean Brood War's roots are so deep that they trascend Blizzard, to the point it exists *despite* Blizzard. However, it can only develop in places with the proper environment (Korea, Japan). This is e-Sports.
The Fighting Game community developed without the help of corporations, and it will continue to organically grow, slowly, but steady and strong, as long as the community keeps working.
i wish the fgc would be more professional. there are people like gootecks, who i would describe as the tasteless of fighting games. he is well articulated but also a fun personality. and then there are people like chris hu, who seem utterly retarded to me, but the fgc loves them, making me sad.
but ultimately i think this article is very bad, and he is kinda insulting his own community. he sounds as if its a major desire of the fgc to stay unorganised and unsponsored. as if loudness and emotionality had anything to do with professionalism. sc2 is just more the tennis of esports and sf4 the football.
On December 13 2011 23:00 Velr wrote: Whats the point/fun of playing against someone that just will dismantle you (when your not training)? I never understood that and never will. Seriously, all i would feel when playing against some high profile progamer would be stupidity because it would look like this:
A: We both play normal and he just mauls me. B: I try some cheese to have a very tiny chance of winning. C: He is restricting himself like mad and I could just as well play against someone of my own skill and have a better game.
It is also the best way to improve. But you need to put a lot of effort in the process. However, a social setting gives you all the resources (prople to talk to) to work on it.
I played against John Choi's Sagat in Super Street Fighter II Turbo in the B5 tournament (the precursor of Evolution). I got mauled. I only hit him three times in two games (four rounds) with my Chun Li. Sagat is a bad matchup for Chun Li, but that's when I realized how bad it can be. His Sagat was that close to perffection.
However, ever since those games, I have never felt nervous against fighting Sagat. I know that unless I face someone as good as John Choi's I can make the correct moves and reads to win the fight. Not even Justin Wong's was that fearful.
While I've already posted about this in the SSFAE thread, I will state that I think he's wrong. The socioeconomic differences exist, sure... but that doesn't mean the spectators are all of that same background. Look at the stream #'s that a major from the FGC can pull. Does he honestly think that those 10k+ people all grew up in arcades? No, many are the same people who watch and play SC2 as well. I don't think it's a coincidence that their stream numbers grew drastically as SC2's did. The sheer # of people who began watching SC2 for countless hours led them to watch other games as well when major tournaments sprung up on major streaming sites like Jtv, livestrea, ustream, etc...
I think fear that combining scenes or new tournaments attempting to take on fighting games might not be that great to start... but that's where my sentiments stop and his continue. I think that the leagues would either improve it and keep it hype and entertaining, or it wouldn't and the FGC would return to exactly where they are now. Ultradavid wants to keep his community the way it is, the problem is, his own community will be changing greatly and is already doing so.
I wouldn't want fighting games to have slow or stale commentary, but I don't think that will ever happen. The games lend themselves so naturally to hype and excitement because of easily digestible, action packed rounds. There will always be excitement.
On December 13 2011 22:45 Velr wrote: Hm... I think he misses the main problem and is himself also part of it. He dismisses online play and sees it as not "natural" to fighting games. Now I understand his doubts due to the lag associated with it, that’s a problem that needs to be fixed somehow, but as long as the people need to go to an arcade to play competitively the FGC will never grow BIG. As much as I would and others do like to play againt the local champ in person, it's just not feasible at many places. It is mandatory for E-Sports to have the possibility to be competitively played from home, there is NO ESport that is played "mainly" in a LAN/Live environment. I don't know about the US but Arcades seem basically non existant to me here (as is the FGC... But that could just be my "blindness"...).
I also learned something more from this article: The majority of the people in the FGC seems to be: A: Poor. B: Criminal C: Homeless D: More than one of the above . E: White and therefore successful in live by default O_o.
I mean common... I can't be as bad as the article makes it out to be?
You obviously missed a lot of the main points in the article, but okay. He was saying that the FGC community is more diverse than the SC community, which is true, in terms of both spectators and players. Also, where the hell did you get criminal from? And he gave one example of a guy in a car. One. One =! majority.
And the lag issue will never die for a very long time, not until basic infastructure in america is replaced. And even then, how do you play with someone from canada? From california to someone on the east coast? Fighting games have huge differences in even the smallest amount of latency. A 20ms match can still make some tactics viable, where with no MS delay, you wouldn't be able to pull that off. You need to play offline to be able to play competitively. Also, have you watched a fighting game tournament? You sit beside your opponent. With a huge, noisy, crowd behind you, with no seperation between you and them. You need the experience offline to be able to play competitively because you need to be used to that kind of setting.
On December 13 2011 23:00 Velr wrote: Whats the point/fun of playing against someone that just will dismantle you (when your not training)? I never understood that and never will. Seriously, all i would feel when playing against some high profile progamer would be stupidity because it would look like this:
A: We both play normal and he just mauls me. B: I try some cheese to have a very tiny chance of winning. C: He is restricting himself like mad and I could just as well play against someone of my own skill and have a better game.
It runs that way in fighting games too, bud. You play against a guy who mauls you, and you see how well you could do against him, with whatever experience you've had. It's called measuring yourself up. You obviously need more confidence in yourself to understand the fun of casually playing against a top level player.
On December 13 2011 23:00 Velr wrote: Whats the point/fun of playing against someone that just will dismantle you (when your not training)? I never understood that and never will. Seriously, all i would feel when playing against some high profile progamer would be stupidity because it would look like this:
A: We both play normal and he just mauls me. B: I try some cheese to have a very tiny chance of winning. C: He is restricting himself like mad and I could just as well play against someone of my own skill and have a better game.
It is also the best way to improve. But you need to put a lot of effort in the process. However, a social setting gives you all the resources (prople to talk to) to work on it.
I played against John Choi's Sagat in Super Street Fighter II Turbo in the B5 tournament (the precursor of Evolution). I got mauled. I only hit him three times in two games (four rounds) with my Chun Li. Sagat is a bad matchup for Chun Li, but that's when I realized how bad it can be. His Sagat was that close to perffection.
However, ever since those games, I have never felt nervous against fighting Sagat. I know that unless I face someone as good as John Choi's I can make the correct moves and reads to win the fight. Not even Justin Wong's was that fearful.
A pro will destroy you much faster in Street Figther than it will in Starcraft. Wasting 2 minutes a game to have some fun with the fans is much easier than wasting 15+ minutes, and if they only cannon rushed or 2 rax all inned it would kind off kill some of the fun. You really can't just compare both communities, there are huge diferences in them that need to be taken into account. It's not that it's less valuable to the common guy, but it's a much bigger commitment on the pro.
Plus, you can always face pros on the ladder, as long as you are good enough. If you get to the point where you really could apreciate playing one of them, you are not that far off from being able to do it.
I don't think you can compare this in SC2 and a Beat'em'up..
I would instantly have jumped in to have a Tekken brawl against some good player (i don't follow the scene) because i used the be pretty good at Tekken 3 and 4. But thats entirely diffrent for SC2 because the games are diffrent.
In Tekken i could see if i actually could give the guy a little trouble and even if not i would take a beating to remember .. In SC2 this is not the case because you don't see all the diffrences that make him better during the play... You just do your stuff and then get killed (or attack and then get countered/killed).
You obviously missed a lot of the main points in the article, but okay. He was saying that the FGC community is more diverse than the SC community, which is true, in terms of both spectators and players. Also, where the hell did you get criminal from? And he gave one example of a guy in a car. One. One =! majority.
I read the other poitns, but they seemed all less important to me. Where i live and in basically all of switzerland there are next to NO arcades. There is no "place" to go to play Street Fighter/Tekken except private/half-private meetings... Therefore onlineplay is the by far most important aspect of the game. Yes, lag is an Issue and will be for a long time, but i doubt that any fighter will get truely big before it can be played online.
He wrote about a guy sleeping in a car, guys that were in prison... In General i felt he stereotyped the FGC very bad.
On December 14 2011 00:58 Velr wrote: I don't think you can compare this in SC2 and a Beat'em'up..
I would instantly have jumped in to have a Tekken brawl against some good player (i don't follow the scene) because i used the be pretty good at Tekken 3 and 4. But thats entirely diffrent for SC2 because the games are diffrent.
In Tekken i could see if i actually could give the guy a little trouble and even if not i would take a beating to remember .. In SC2 this is not the case because you don't see all the diffrences that make him better during the play... You just do your stuff and then get killed (or attack and then get countered/killed).
You obviously missed a lot of the main points in the article, but okay. He was saying that the FGC community is more diverse than the SC community, which is true, in terms of both spectators and players. Also, where the hell did you get criminal from? And he gave one example of a guy in a car. One. One =! majority.
I read the other poitns, but they seemed all less important to me. Where i live and in basically all of switzerland there are next to NO arcades. There is no "place" to go to play Street Fighter/Tekken except private/half-private meetings... Therefore onlineplay is the by far most important aspect of the game. Yes, lag is an Issue and will be for a long time, but i doubt that any fighter will get truely big before it can be played online.
He wrote about a guy sleeping in a car, guys that were in prison... In General i felt he stereotyped the FGC very bad.
My introductions to fighting community (SSBM) was playing with friends on lunch breaks and then reading on the internet about tournaments/proscene and then searching for it. This sort of effort never happens now a day. SSBM esports is no more of a sport than warhammer or something similar. Its just as much about meeting people and having fun with a competitive aspect.
FG will not become big anytime soon but the FGC is really healthy as it is now.
Nearly all the replies in here seem to confirm the things UltraDavid wrote, so I guess he is on to something.
The way I see it is that they want to keep their core values in which everybody is a player, and if they want, competitor. It doesn't matter if you aren't already known, or if you are really good, if you come to a major event, got your money and enter, you get to play.
As for most of the commentators I think they would rather tell it as it is and keep bringing the hype over being "more professional". As a viewer of many a fighting game stream, as well as a player, I can attest to the quality of the stream and hype meter being lowered if the commentators have to keep the language "clean" or try to "up the professionalism". It simply doesn't fit with the crowd.
On December 14 2011 03:18 warcode wrote: Nearly all the replies in here seem to confirm the things UltraDavid wrote, so I guess he is on to something.
The way I see it is that they want to keep their core values in which everybody is a player, and if they want, competitor. It doesn't matter if you aren't already known, or if you are really good, if you come to a major event, got your money and enter, you get to play.
As for most of the commentators I think they would rather tell it as it is and keep bringing the hype over being "more professional". As a viewer of many a fighting game stream, as well as a player, I can attest to the quality of the stream and hype meter being lowered if the commentators have to keep the language "clean" or try to "up the professionalism". It simply doesn't fit with the crowd.
I respectfully disagree with the hype meter being lowered if the language on the stream is being kept clean. Spooky's stream for EVO 2011 was kept PG and was still very much just as hype as any previous EVO, if not more so, it's the matches, not the language, in my opinion. As UltraDavid put it, commentating is just icing on the cake for FGs.
On December 14 2011 00:58 Velr wrote: I don't think you can compare this in SC2 and a Beat'em'up..
I would instantly have jumped in to have a Tekken brawl against some good player (i don't follow the scene) because i used the be pretty good at Tekken 3 and 4. But thats entirely diffrent for SC2 because the games are diffrent.
In Tekken i could see if i actually could give the guy a little trouble and even if not i would take a beating to remember .. In SC2 this is not the case because you don't see all the diffrences that make him better during the play... You just do your stuff and then get killed (or attack and then get countered/killed).
You obviously missed a lot of the main points in the article, but okay. He was saying that the FGC community is more diverse than the SC community, which is true, in terms of both spectators and players. Also, where the hell did you get criminal from? And he gave one example of a guy in a car. One. One =! majority.
I read the other poitns, but they seemed all less important to me. Where i live and in basically all of switzerland there are next to NO arcades. There is no "place" to go to play Street Fighter/Tekken except private/half-private meetings... Therefore onlineplay is the by far most important aspect of the game. Yes, lag is an Issue and will be for a long time, but i doubt that any fighter will get truely big before it can be played online.
He wrote about a guy sleeping in a car, guys that were in prison... In General i felt he stereotyped the FGC very bad.
I guess it's a perspective thing, but growing up in a car and even being to jail doesn't necessarily make someone bad. It was supposed to be a difference in class, not like they are bad or anything, but socially, there are differences in culture that the two communities can't relate to. It's not about bad or worse, just about being different.
Also online is and will always considered second tier to the fighting game community. If there is any aspect of lag, ever, it devalues the game you play. The difference between people in the arcades or friday night fights and stream monsters is that stream monsters are NOT part of the community. You cannot just play online, and many people who watch streams will go to a few arcades to watch or get their asses kicked in local tournies, and this is the natural progression. If you solely observe, you are not part of the community and the opinion of stream monsters holds no weight, which is also a distinction between them and esports.
I totally admire the scene they spent ages building themselves and can see them going very far. As a person who has tried to create a scene for competitive RTS games that aren't made by Blizzard I have total respect for them.
Over the past few months I've seen various people from within and outside shit on them for what they do. Either saying that the commentary sucks (which will get better over time) and the prize pots are shit (which will get better over time).
A lot of people have said the scene isnt very inclusive towards new comers. I say is that different from any scene? Try playing a MOBA for the first time and not get a barrage of "OMFG FUCKING NOOB" messages. It's true that the scene caters more towards players than the viewers but they are changing, more players are streaming and tournament organizers are doing their best to get their events streamed by the best people in the scene.
In the short term what they could do is put out better viewer friendly content as currently people who do not play the games don't undestand the intricacies of what's going on. Day 9 helped popularize the viewing of SC2 with his show and that a fighting game show of similar content would work wonders to help viewers appreciate the games more.
The final point is if the FGC needs SC2 money. (SC2 is where the money comes from right now don't kid yourselves, I HATE SC2 but it's the REAL moneymaker in eSports right now.) Gootecks put on an event recently sponsored by Complexity and I think that the best example of the Fighting Game Community partnering with eSports. They know how to make the content just fund them and Ideally I believe that community as whole would like that, the current TOs having more money to make nicer events. Wether or not to let the big leagues take up FGs well that decision is up to one company and there is no point in blaming sections of either community about why Capcom haven't endorsed the use of their games in the leagues. The back and forth bickering over the past few months via twitter, blogs, forums etc. has only aggrivating things especially since neither community can do much about the situation.
This is a really, really good article. I agree that Capcom needs to start backing the FGC a lot more in order for it to be bigger. If Blizzard hadn't put in so many awesome spectator tools, and hell, even developed the game with esports in mind, it wouldn't be the same as it is now.
On December 13 2011 20:52 Turbogangsta wrote: wow why dont our pros/casters have casual matches with spectaters more often i just realised how awesome that is
street fighter games dont take ages to finish unlike starcraft matches which take alot longer to finish
I noticed a few people in this thread write off the competitive merit of fighting games, "TheBalls" even saying that they lack the strategic depth necessary to be watchable.
It's a misunderstanding. On its surface it may appear that guys are just mashing buttons and hollering, but there are strategic decisions to compliment the technique required to play fighting games well. They're just not as easy to recognize as a flashy combo or interesting setup.
It's actually very similar to SC2 in that technique (improving macroing would be a good comparison to fighting game execution) can drastically improve you as a player and is most likely one of the first things you should focus on when beginning to improve, but you must ultimately round out your skillset if you intend to play at the top of the game.
And much like RTS games, there are different varieties of players in fighting games. There are players with good game sense that are known for the consistent proper decision making - we call them smart. There are creative players - we call them stylish. There are players known for their technique or execution. There are players known for their impeccable defense and others for their wild unpredictable aggression and pressure. And there are players who are a little bit of each, or at times seemingly everything at once.
I also wanted to comment briefly on the perception that the fighting game needs to get more into online play. For many it is too frustrating to consider with today's connection speeds in the US and the generally poor net coding in fighting games.
Imagine unplugging your gaming mouse and trying to play SC2 using a laptop's touchpad. When the lag in a fighting game exceeds 30ms, the nature of the gameplay changes completely.
Many of your combos, special moves and opportunities must be done in short precise windows of time. We're talking 1/15th or 1/30th of a second, even. Missing that window would be similar to showing up at your opponents base with a well-timed drop, releasing just 1 marine in the wrong place, and then flying the dropship home. The opportunity is lost, and your effort has actually worked against you as a result potentially opening you up to risk and punishment.
Dropping that opportunity because of your own failing is bad enough, but being robbed of it by fluctuating lag conditions and skewed muscle memory is that much more frustrating.
Even in any lag fighting gameplay can suffer. Pros can recognize instantly when they're playing on an HD TV that has 1-2 frames of lag compared to a proper setup. Your eyes are not fast enough to tell the difference, but you can recognize the disconnect between what you're experiencing and what your muscle memory knows.
So long that I bookmarked it last night to finish off today.
Some interesting points, and good for a little perspective, but there wasn't enough SC2 for me to really enjoy it. (yes i know it was written for the fighting game community)
Fighting games are like the underground rap of musical professionalism, requiring keen instincts and a very fast paced mind, with intricate frame knowledge (like poetic phrase). Starcraft would be somewhere around opera, requiring the refined technical proficiency, and extremely strong mechanics (ability to hit each note perfectly, and sustain it).
I believe this is an appropriate analogy, I've been a part of both communities for a decent amount of time. A lot of fighter players co-exist in the RTS community, however the general persona and energies of the communities differ intrinsically does the gifted opera singer and the hard-working rapper. As such, I can completely understand why some people would prefer a divide between the two gaming communities.
I read this article an thought "About now someone is making a thread on TL". And sure enough, here it is. This article is amazing, and in my opinion this thread actually deserves to be spotlighted, just so everyone can see it.
On December 13 2011 20:39 Hall0wed wrote: I've always hated the FGC with a passion. They seem way more elitist than anyone else and their personalities are all pretty horrible for the most part.
On December 13 2011 20:39 Hall0wed wrote: Also I have never been able to find the fun in playing fighting games competitively, so that doesn't help my outlook on these people. They are fun to play and watch but I could never imagine sitting around hammering out 1 combo or something for hours, where is the fun in that? I have a friend that used to be a competitive Melee player but I feel Melee is completely different (in a GREAT way) from other fighting games.
Your talking about basic combos being difficult and yet you love melee. L-canceling has to be the most pointless and unnecessary execution barrier ever.
On December 13 2011 20:39 Hall0wed wrote: But I don't think the FGC can keep growing on its own, eSports doesn't need them but they will need us if they actually want to expand.
Actually the FGC is doing better than it ever has before. They won't be needing "esports" for a very long time.
On December 13 2011 20:39 Hall0wed wrote: But I don't think the FGC can keep growing on its own, eSports doesn't need them but they will need us if they actually want to expand.
Actually the FGC is doing better than it ever has before. They won't be needing "esports" for a very long time.
The FGC is a completely different beast and they won't take kindly to being so big that the pros need to be seperated from the crowd. That's just not how they do it. They will grow I think, but they won't take so kindly to MLG style events as we did, because it will make the pros unreachable and not players you could walk up beside, put in a quarter and play against.
On December 13 2011 20:39 Hall0wed wrote: I've always hated the FGC with a passion. They seem way more elitist than anyone else and their personalities are all pretty horrible for the most part.
Also I have never been able to find the fun in playing fighting games competitively, so that doesn't help my outlook on these people. They are fun to play and watch but I could never imagine sitting around hammering out 1 combo or something for hours, where is the fun in that? I have a friend that used to be a competitive Melee player but I feel Melee is completely different (in a GREAT way) from other fighting games.
But I don't think the FGC can keep growing on its own, eSports doesn't need them but they will need us if they actually want to expand.
So odd.
I guess if you have never practiced a build order, practicing a combo seems weird. But if you actually play starcraft and weren't just a spectator, it's pretty normal. Don't know what else to say about that lol, just highlights even more of the difference where everyone in the FGC is a player and most in SC2 just watch.
Rest of your post is just trolling =(
After almost 2 decades, the FGC suddenly needs esports to grow? After the last Evo matched even MLG in viewers and blew it up in terms of attendance? Back under you're bridge!
On December 14 2011 03:18 warcode wrote: Nearly all the replies in here seem to confirm the things UltraDavid wrote, so I guess he is on to something.
The way I see it is that they want to keep their core values in which everybody is a player, and if they want, competitor. It doesn't matter if you aren't already known, or if you are really good, if you come to a major event, got your money and enter, you get to play.
As for most of the commentators I think they would rather tell it as it is and keep bringing the hype over being "more professional". As a viewer of many a fighting game stream, as well as a player, I can attest to the quality of the stream and hype meter being lowered if the commentators have to keep the language "clean" or try to "up the professionalism". It simply doesn't fit with the crowd.
I respectfully disagree with the hype meter being lowered if the language on the stream is being kept clean. Spooky's stream for EVO 2011 was kept PG and was still very much just as hype as any previous EVO, if not more so, it's the matches, not the language, in my opinion. As UltraDavid put it, commentating is just icing on the cake for FGs.
Yeah, you know what. It really isn't as bad as UD made it out to be. I've been an active member of both communities for a very long time.
On December 13 2011 20:39 Hall0wed wrote: Also I have never been able to find the fun in playing fighting games competitively, so that doesn't help my outlook on these people. They are fun to play and watch but I could never imagine sitting around hammering out 1 combo or something for hours, where is the fun in that?
It's no different than practicing build orders and timing pushes in SC2, really.
Wow. Incredible insight. The whole analysis of the roots of each respective game really puts all of this into perspective for me. What's more, I feel like when you apply this to the COD and Halo communities it all begins to make sense.
One of the big things, I think, that will influence the development of the FCG is whether or not they can find the right games for a spectator sport. I used to LOVE watching competitive Melee. But then Brawl came out, and... ugh.
I don't have too much experience with other fighting games, but they'll need to have more than just timing and a few combos to make them entertaining. Compare SFIII: 3rd Strike, with its ability for parries to a game like Tekken. I haven't played Tekken6, but I don't remember any of the older games having any interesting mechanics like parrying. I've watched Tekken6 tounies a few times, and they just haven't been very exciting, and the game pretty much felt just like the old ones on the PS1.
...I'm a sports guy. Diehard Ohio State Buckeyes fan, Lebron hater, Tebow believer, Roy Jones Jr. nostalgia-ist, GSP grease accuser, BJ Penn lover, Yankees diehard from childhood memories of Don Mattingly, and Roy Bourque supporter because he was the toughest fighter on the first NHL Hockey for Sega... ... Lebron hater, Tebow believer, Roy Jones Jr. nostalgia-ist... ...Tebow believer... ...Tebow... ...TEBOW
On December 13 2011 16:43 trancey wrote: [TL'DR] UltraDavid feels the fighting gaming community isn't under the same tent as "esports" and would rather they be left separate. Their community has learned of the benefits from video streaming, PODcasts, youtube, and corporate sponsorships from StarCraft 2 but doesn't think the two communities could ever co-exist under the same moniker because of a variety of reasons (mostly, the backgrounds from which their community originated).
this TLDR is so broken.
streaming existed in FGC before SC2 came out. podcasts? we had podcasts for 3S on arcade. youtube? are you serious?
ultradavid also believes they can work with MLG *if* they have a lot of community support and work together and not against them. but one has to acknowledge the differences in scenes which have led to different development; it's not a fault of the community. remember that the FGC is being built now, grassroots; SC2 had so much to borrow from the Korean BW scene which was professionally developed. japan had the talent but never did anything to harvest their talent; it took MadCatz (remember them? they made memory cards and controllers that always broke!) to sign a Japanese player to a pro contract and now Japan is realizing what a difference good business practice can make.
------
i also don't understand the want for more "professional" commentary. you have a fast paced game (or games) that can end very quickly. you have a lot of players that are not necessarily famous and you may not know who they are. in starcraft you put down your barracks before supply and the game changes dramatically, though the effects do not manifest themselves for at least a minute or two or three giving you plenty of time to talk about it and analyze. in 5 seconds in SF4, 4 important decisions can be made. it's not even close to being the same and they call for different skill sets and james chen and ultradavid do a superb job; i much preferred watching the EVO stream as opposed to actually going to EVO.
I read the other poitns, but they seemed all less important to me. Where i live and in basically all of switzerland there are next to NO arcades. There is no "place" to go to play Street Fighter/Tekken except private/half-private meetings... Therefore onlineplay is the by far most important aspect of the game. Yes, lag is an Issue and will be for a long time, but i doubt that any fighter will get truely big before it can be played online.
This is also the kind of complacency that the FG community looks down into. Don't have a community? Create one. This is how Melty Blood, an obscure game by FG standards, made it all the way to the main stage. They started by playing tournaments in a gazebo in a park in New York. Of course network play helped, but it was by traveling and being in-person at events how they made a prescence.
He wrote about a guy sleeping in a car, guys that were in prison... In General i felt he stereotyped the FGC very bad.
It is no insult. He is being realistic. It just shows how much the FG community has gone thru, instead of given everything in a silver plate. ESPORT people have no idea how easy they have it, especially the SC2-only crowd.
One thing I really didn't like about the article was that he tried to include things about broodwar vs FGC. Professional broodwar in korea is a shining beacon of impossibility and I don't think he should've grouped it into ' esports ' at all. Korean professional broodwar came from very similar roots as the FGC ultradavid describes.
In the fighting games vs broodwar comparison someone like ultradavid [ white, born in the western world ] has no idea how similar his FGC and the korean broodwar community is. It literally cost less than $1 to play starcraft for an entire hour back in the 90s pc bangs. Pc bangs were MORE NUMEROUS than any section of arcades in NY/LA/DC and korea was wired up for anyone to play. Broodwar in korea in the 90s was face to face, I'd argue even more than fighting games.
If you were good at broodwar, pc bang owners let you play for free so you attracted more customers. This is the same stuff that Ultradavid is describing in his FGC history. And although Korea is a homogenous society, low-lifes/commoners/college-tracks were all in those pc bangs together hammering out starcraft. And if ultradavid somehow thinks what he does compared to what commentators like Um jae kyung and the other OGN commentators went through...then again I posit that he is ignorant.
I like the FGC a lot. I think ' I got next ' was one of the best documentaries I've ever watched, and I watch a lot. I like ultradavid a lot more than most sc2 commentators, and i think Seth Killian is a fantastic voice and media presence. A lot of my friends are into fighting games.
All that said, I think broodwar should have been left out of the article. This post was actually about 3x as long but I cut a lot of it because it was negative. My personal opinion is that even if a big figure of the FGC like ultradavid thinks they can work with esports they could never become something like professional broodwar. Sc2 sure, but not broodwar. It's not that they are choosing to be careful and wary. They just flat out can't. Broodwar as a professional ' SPORT ' in korea is just so beyond what any fighting game [ ANY ] could achieve that its naive to think the same could be done.
I don't think Ultradavid tries to compare FGs to Broodwar, but Starcraft II. He uses "Starcraft" as a generic term, but is pretty clear he is making a comparison to the ESPORT SC2 people.
On December 14 2011 07:13 VManOfMana wrote: I don't think Ultradavid tries to compare FGs to Broodwar, but Starcraft II. He uses "Starcraft" as a generic term, but is pretty clear he is making a comparison to the ESPORT SC2 people.
Did you read the full article?
He clearly uses broodwar as an example when describing the different background of esports vs fighting games. He thinks that because broodwar was successful, investors and blizzard were just like ok, we should put money into this.
Broodwar was actually nothing significant until koreans put in the blood sweat tears and devotion to make things like Proleague/Kespa/OSL/MSL etc.... What I described, the 90's pc bang culture is very similar to what he described the FGC as. The main difference is the game[s] they are supporting. Certain broodwar games could be described as simply art....like watching a high-level world-cup soccer game. Watching daigo parry reverse super combo is not art....just straight up ownage.
I read the other poitns, but they seemed all less important to me. Where i live and in basically all of switzerland there are next to NO arcades. There is no "place" to go to play Street Fighter/Tekken except private/half-private meetings... Therefore onlineplay is the by far most important aspect of the game. Yes, lag is an Issue and will be for a long time, but i doubt that any fighter will get truely big before it can be played online.
This is also the kind of complacency that the FG community looks down into. Don't have a community? Create one. This is how Melty Blood, an obscure game by FG standards, made it all the way to the main stage. They started by playing tournaments in a gazebo in a park in New York. Of course network play helped, but it was by traveling and being in-person at events how they made a prescence.
He wrote about a guy sleeping in a car, guys that were in prison... In General i felt he stereotyped the FGC very bad.
It is no insult. He is being realistic. It just shows how much the FG community has gone thru, instead of given everything in a silver plate. ESPORT people have no idea how easy they have it, especially the SC2-only crowd.
Point 1: SAYING that a part of your community, that is big enough to be worth mentioning, was in jail is nothing negative? Well, to exagerate this a little... Is it also not negative when i say.. A part of our community, that is big enough to be worth mentioning, is raping teenage girls? See, i don't know where you come from, but it is not normal, nor positive or in some strange way "special" to have enough convicted criminals (serious enough to go to jail) in your community to make you feel to write about them when talking about your community in general. Thats, where i come from, normally the case when you write about some criminal organisation/group, not a video game community.
Sorry, i had no clue about the FGC before this article and there is next to nothing positive i can take from it, except that some of them are just as passionate as many SC2 fans.
Point 2: The "forming a community" stuff. I completly agree that "offline" or better "in person" events are more important than online tourneys/games, no matter the game. The problem the FGC has, is that to form a SC2 or Hon/Dota/Lol B I G community, you need the possibilty to play it online whiteout having to travel to somewhere EVERYTIME you want a decent game. Gathering some people that occasionally meet to play is never ever gonna compare to what online communities are able to do. You say the FGC just sais you should "Form" a community... We are talking about communities of thousands of people here, not 10-30 guys that occasionally meet in some guys garage, thats fun and awesome to do but thats hardly what i would call a community when comparing it to SC2 and what makes it big (we had something like this in Switzerland for SC/BW, but where did we met first? Battle.net). I know that right now, the lag is an issue (and will be for a long time probably). I would argue that you can forget a fighting game becoming truly BIG as an "Esport" before it is not an issue anymore or people don't care as much anymore. These small groupes/communities are awesome to play with and hang out with, i loved it, but they are not really what the fighting games would need to "explode".
Btw: I love playing fighting games and it's a shame that it's so hard to acutally play them kinda "serious". But thats how it is atm.
So, in short after reading that article: We're loud, abrasive, exclusionary and extremely passionate about this, so much so we have in groups that fight amongst ourselves, and that's what makes us awesome.
My first thought was that this was about gay pride?
But my second, more serious thought was honestly, if the group leaders who want their community to grow the way it always has with minimal support, best of luck. They know that people who are passionate about competitive gaming want them to grow, but the simple truth is you can't force them to change. They want to do it their way, and they will, and they are probably more passionate about their growth than others.
As a spectator who enjoys almost all competitive gaming, I want them to succeed. Maybe I'm not in the know why they feel the pressure to succeed now, and I hope that their course to stay themselves is the course the gives them mainstream appeal and growth.
Late Edit.
After reading my own last sentence, suddenly I realize that my own hopes are contradictory to their goals of independance. Ahh well. Hopefully you don't become a group that loved fighting games before it was cool. Be the group that loves fighting games before it was cool, while it was cool, and while you make it even better.
I did read the article. He clearly says Brood War, and I do agree with him that the reason money is thrown into ESPORTS is Korea's Brood War success.
But when it comes to communities, I think he talks about ESPORTS lead by SC2, not the Korean BW scene.
I actually agree with your original post in that he mistakenly puts BW with SC2 in terms of communities (I don't think FG people is aware that there is a division between BW and SC2 fans), but I don't think BW should be completely omitted as a cause of the current ESPORT scene.
Iirc I only brought in Brood War when talking about models of success that pro gaming leagues could use in bringing in and expanding SC2. BW was definitely one of the reasons, if not the main reason, that so many leagues wanted to jump on SC2 so fast. I've read about the conditions under which BW got popular but they're not relevant to what I was talking about. I understand that it developed in an arcade-like situation, that Korean infrastructure and culture were built in such a way as to allow it to succeed, that people were looking for something like it, etc. But for the North American FGC and SC2 comparison, which is what I was really writing about, all that doesn't really matter. All that was necessary to know was that BW had a very successful model for pro gaming. Comparing the North American FGC and early Korean BW would make for an interesting read just not terribly relevant to what I was writing about.
Anyway it's cool that you love your game. I like it too. But to the idea that there's no strategy in my games, no moments of art in gameplay? Obviously that's stupid to the point of hardly being worth responding to, but let me just say that yes, fighting games are very strategic games of space control, option control, and mixups, and there are absolutely times when the best players can make me go WHOA with the push of a single button. I don't care about the Daigo parry moment because he pressed toward a certain number of times, why care about that? I care about the strategic choices that were being made.
This is a little thing I put together a while back, year and a half ago or so, as a basic primer on how to watch fighting games: Including why the Daigo parry moment is interesting, why fireball wars are interesting, etc.
On December 14 2011 07:45 UltraDavid wrote: Iirc I only brought in Brood War when talking about models of success that pro gaming leagues could use in bringing in and expanding SC2. BW was definitely one of the reasons, if not the main reason, that so many leagues wanted to jump on SC2 so fast. I've read about the conditions under which BW got popular but they're not relevant to what I was talking about. I understand that it developed in an arcade-like situation, that Korean infrastructure and culture were built in such a way as to allow it to succeed, that people were looking for something like it, etc. But for the North American FGC and SC2 comparison, which is what I was really writing about, all that doesn't really matter. All that was necessary to know was that BW had a very successful model for pro gaming. Comparing the North American FGC and early Korean BW would make for an interesting read just not terribly relevant to what I was writing about.
Anyway it's cool that you love your game. I like it too. But to the idea that there's no strategy in my games, no moments of art in gameplay? Obviously that's stupid to the point of hardly being worth responding to, but let me just say that yes, fighting games are very strategic games of space control, option control, and mixups, and there are absolutely times when the best players can make me go WHOA with the push of a single button. I don't care about the Daigo parry moment because he pressed toward a certain number of times, why care about that? I care about the strategic choices that were being made.
This is a little thing I put together a while back, year and a half ago or so, as a basic primer on how to watch fighting games: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nd3riT6p9xU Including why the Daigo parry moment is interesting, why fireball wars are interesting, etc.
Sorry that you think its not worth responding to but you responded anyway.
To be absolutely clear, I am not saying there is no strategy, difficulty, or merit in fighting games. I am merely saying that fighting games [ take your pick, MvC, street fighter, blazblue, etc ] cannot achieve the level of something like professional korean brood war. I'm not even saying this is because broodwar is better [ which it happens to be, to more people ] but the statistical impossibility of brood war achieving what it did.
I will be the first to admit I don't know the most about fighting games. But you're shooting yourself in the foot if you think fighting games have had the art I describe like broodwar did.
Fireball wars. Ok cool East coast vs west coast. Ok cool. Daigo parry. Ok cool.
When daigo parry reverse super combos one of the best players in the FGC I just think wow he got owned. When boxer 3x bunker rushed Yellow into oblivion, I know for a fact Yellow is going home and questioning his existence as a human being.
When east coast 5-0s west coast, I think great the underdog won. When god of war JulyZerg win the golden mouse and the ENTIRE HISTORY OF ZERG PROGAMERS succed together in that one singular moment, I think east coast vs west coast is like an ant colony compared to the colloseum.
Mixups and strategic choices and on-screen space management. Ok cool When you see Flash play at 300+ apm against people who could be considered bonjwas in their own eras, and play at 4 places at once utilizing all those things like spacing, timing, and multitask...what do you have in fighting game that compares to this. Btw he does this shit in practice in his sleep.
You want me to watch a video about how to watch fighting games. It's your turn to read a Final Edit by Ver on Iloveoov or Savior and honestly say with a straight face anything a fighting game player has done compares.
Hm, I'd love to read something like that lol. I also kept very close tabs on BW back in the day, it's not like I'm new to this. I played it a ton and watched it a ton. In very early WC3, before I got tired of the game, I contributed significantly to a couple of the major online communities, posting a lot about strategy and digging in deep to dps and stuff.
Again, that's great that you prefer a particular game. But you clearly don't know jack about mine. Personally, I feel that fighting games are better spectator games than RTS. Presumably you feel the opposite, and that's great, there should be no hate or haughtiness on either side. But you'd do better to try to inform yourself first. I hope other people are willing to spend 10 minutes at least heh, cause I'm not gonna be interested in keeping this going if you're not willing to get outta your shell during the free time it takes to boil up some pasta.
Edit: Tekken used to be one of the major communities. Part of the reason was that the games are good, the other part that Tekkens were still being released during the 2D dead era, so it was the new stuff people played. For a long time it was maybe like, the 2nd biggest individual game in North America? But no longer, it's fallen way down. The last Tekken game was released in 2007 and the scene has been through some crap since then that hasn't helped it out. It's also had to deal with the resurgence in 2D fighting games since Street Fighter 4 came out. So those combined have meant that it's barely even a side game anymore, to be honest. It's too bad, hopefully Tekken Tag Tournament 2 changes things when it comes out next year.
On December 14 2011 08:11 UltraDavid wrote: Hm, I'd love to read something like that lol. I also kept very close tabs on BW back in the day, it's not like I'm new to this. I played it a ton and watched it a ton. In very early WC3, before I got tired of the game, I contributed significantly to a couple of the major online communities, posting a lot about strategy and digging in deep to dps and stuff.
Again, that's great that you prefer a particular game. But you clearly don't know jack about mine. Personally, I feel that fighting games are better spectator games than RTS. Presumably you feel the opposite, and that's great, there should be no hate or haughtiness on either side. But you'd do better to try to inform yourself first. I hope other people are willing to spend 10 minutes at least heh, cause I'm not gonna be interested in keeping this going if you're not willing to get outta your shell during the free time it takes to boil up some pasta.
I'm admitting that I don't know about your game. And I don't hate your fighting game genre or think that somehow RTS is better.
I'm just stating that objectively, factually, there's nothing that exists in the real world that shows that street fighter players are doing something more difficult, or even as close to as difficult as what the most top tier broodwar progamers do. That's it. It's not even to say hey my pros are better than your pros. It's just the way it is. If you want to listen to pop music, ok that's cool. But don't pretend like classical music isn't better in almost every way to any educated individual in regards to MUSIC.
Broodwar as a professional sport in korea [ not esport ] is more important that any fighting game ever will be to any nation is what my argument is. It's the nature of the game itself.
On December 14 2011 07:45 UltraDavid wrote: Iirc I only brought in Brood War when talking about models of success that pro gaming leagues could use in bringing in and expanding SC2. BW was definitely one of the reasons, if not the main reason, that so many leagues wanted to jump on SC2 so fast. I've read about the conditions under which BW got popular but they're not relevant to what I was talking about. I understand that it developed in an arcade-like situation, that Korean infrastructure and culture were built in such a way as to allow it to succeed, that people were looking for something like it, etc. But for the North American FGC and SC2 comparison, which is what I was really writing about, all that doesn't really matter. All that was necessary to know was that BW had a very successful model for pro gaming. Comparing the North American FGC and early Korean BW would make for an interesting read just not terribly relevant to what I was writing about.
Anyway it's cool that you love your game. I like it too. But to the idea that there's no strategy in my games, no moments of art in gameplay? Obviously that's stupid to the point of hardly being worth responding to, but let me just say that yes, fighting games are very strategic games of space control, option control, and mixups, and there are absolutely times when the best players can make me go WHOA with the push of a single button. I don't care about the Daigo parry moment because he pressed toward a certain number of times, why care about that? I care about the strategic choices that were being made.
This is a little thing I put together a while back, year and a half ago or so, as a basic primer on how to watch fighting games: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nd3riT6p9xU Including why the Daigo parry moment is interesting, why fireball wars are interesting, etc.
Sorry that you think its not worth responding to but you responded anyway.
To be absolutely clear, I am not saying there is no strategy, difficulty, or merit in fighting games. I am merely saying that fighting games [ take your pick, MvC, street fighter, blazblue, etc ] cannot achieve the level of something like professional korean brood war. I'm not even saying this is because broodwar is better [ which it happens to be, to more people ] but the statistical impossibility of brood war achieving what it did.
I will be the first to admit I don't know the most about fighting games. But you're shooting yourself in the foot if you think fighting games have had the art I describe like broodwar did.
Fireball wars. Ok cool East coast vs west coast. Ok cool. Daigo parry. Ok cool.
When daigo parry reverse super combos one of the best players in the FGC I just think wow he got owned. When boxer 3x bunker rushed Yellow into oblivion, I know for a fact Yellow is going home and questioning his existence as a human being.
When east coast 5-0s west coast, I think great the underdog won. When god of war JulyZerg win the golden mouse and the ENTIRE HISTORY OF ZERG PROGAMERS succed together in that one singular moment, I think east coast vs west coast is like an ant colony compared to the colloseum.
Mixups and strategic choices and on-screen space management. Ok cool When you see Flash play at 300+ apm against people who could be considered bonjwas in their own eras, and play at 4 places at once utilizing all those things like spacing, timing, and multitask...what do you have in fighting game that compares to this. Btw he does this shit in practice in his sleep.
You want me to watch a video about how to watch fighting games. It's your turn to read a Final Edit by Ver on Iloveoov or Savior and honestly say with a straight face anything a fighting game player has done compares.
Don't pretend to speak as though you're God. Comparing video games is exactly like comparing physical sports. Anybody who engages in an argument as to what sport is "better" is laughable, and is just as easily applied to esports. Don't believe me? Look at any conversation that has ever taken place between Soccer and American Football where both sides don't come out looking like complete retards.
I might disagree with some of UltraDavid's conclusions, but don't turn this into a pissing contest as to what game is "better," as if there's some sort of objective answer to that.
Mechanics are one thing, but if you judge games based on mechanics then we should all be playing games much harder than SC2 or BW. edit: This makes me think of Milkis being torn a new one by the community when he posted the exact same thing you posted but comparing SC2 to BW instead of SC2 to a fighting game.
On December 14 2011 07:45 UltraDavid wrote: Iirc I only brought in Brood War when talking about models of success that pro gaming leagues could use in bringing in and expanding SC2. BW was definitely one of the reasons, if not the main reason, that so many leagues wanted to jump on SC2 so fast. I've read about the conditions under which BW got popular but they're not relevant to what I was talking about. I understand that it developed in an arcade-like situation, that Korean infrastructure and culture were built in such a way as to allow it to succeed, that people were looking for something like it, etc. But for the North American FGC and SC2 comparison, which is what I was really writing about, all that doesn't really matter. All that was necessary to know was that BW had a very successful model for pro gaming. Comparing the North American FGC and early Korean BW would make for an interesting read just not terribly relevant to what I was writing about.
Anyway it's cool that you love your game. I like it too. But to the idea that there's no strategy in my games, no moments of art in gameplay? Obviously that's stupid to the point of hardly being worth responding to, but let me just say that yes, fighting games are very strategic games of space control, option control, and mixups, and there are absolutely times when the best players can make me go WHOA with the push of a single button. I don't care about the Daigo parry moment because he pressed toward a certain number of times, why care about that? I care about the strategic choices that were being made.
This is a little thing I put together a while back, year and a half ago or so, as a basic primer on how to watch fighting games: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nd3riT6p9xU Including why the Daigo parry moment is interesting, why fireball wars are interesting, etc.
Sorry that you think its not worth responding to but you responded anyway.
To be absolutely clear, I am not saying there is no strategy, difficulty, or merit in fighting games. I am merely saying that fighting games [ take your pick, MvC, street fighter, blazblue, etc ] cannot achieve the level of something like professional korean brood war. I'm not even saying this is because broodwar is better [ which it happens to be, to more people ] but the statistical impossibility of brood war achieving what it did.
I will be the first to admit I don't know the most about fighting games. But you're shooting yourself in the foot if you think fighting games have had the art I describe like broodwar did.
Fireball wars. Ok cool East coast vs west coast. Ok cool. Daigo parry. Ok cool.
When daigo parry reverse super combos one of the best players in the FGC I just think wow he got owned. When boxer 3x bunker rushed Yellow into oblivion, I know for a fact Yellow is going home and questioning his existence as a human being.
When east coast 5-0s west coast, I think great the underdog won. When god of war JulyZerg win the golden mouse and the ENTIRE HISTORY OF ZERG PROGAMERS succed together in that one singular moment, I think east coast vs west coast is like an ant colony compared to the colloseum.
Mixups and strategic choices and on-screen space management. Ok cool When you see Flash play at 300+ apm against people who could be considered bonjwas in their own eras, and play at 4 places at once utilizing all those things like spacing, timing, and multitask...what do you have in fighting game that compares to this. Btw he does this shit in practice in his sleep.
You want me to watch a video about how to watch fighting games. It's your turn to read a Final Edit by Ver on Iloveoov or Savior and honestly say with a straight face anything a fighting game player has done compares.
Don't get so defensive. David responded to "no strategy" posts like theBALLS, not yours. No need to throw a fit when he points out that the Korean BW scene is not relevant to the main point of his article. The "join us" message is coming from the ESPORT crowd, not the Korean BW scene.
What mozart contributed to music is more important than what kanye west contributed.
What top tier brood war progamers contributed to professional gaming is more important than what ' x top fighting game player ' contributed.
I didn't say broodwar was the only true esport or fighting games were easy.
Edit: But anyway this is going off topic. And it seems we've said what we need to. Neither of us are changing the other's mind so I'll just say you wrote a good article and I had minor gripes about it. If you gotta throw shit up on twitter to feel better about validating your own opinion or showing the world how stupid 1 guy on a forum that nobody cares about...go for it.
On December 14 2011 08:28 Ack1027 wrote: What mozart contributed to music is more important than what kanye west contributed.
What top tier brood war progamers contributed to professional gaming is more important than what ' x top fighting game player ' contributed.
I didn't say broodwar was the only true esport or fighting games were easy.
This is not an argument you're going to be able to win. You're attempting to speak objectively about purely subjective things.
Now you're also attempting to change the argument. Saying, somebody had a greater impact is measurable (I suppose...), but what does that have to do with anything? Dustin Browder has had a greater impact on esports than Boxer. What a pointless debate this would lead to.
You can personally see the beauty in BW because you're personally invested in it. It's ironic that you earlier referenced Boxer's bunker rushing of Yellow because that's the perfect example of strategy and mindgames being so important. Those exact same things persist in a fighting game but they simply happen much, much faster in the middle of a match.
On December 14 2011 08:28 Ack1027 wrote: What mozart contributed to music is more important than what kanye west contributed.
Give it 300 years and maybe Kanye's contributions will be very highly regarded.
On December 14 2011 08:28 Ack1027 wrote: What top tier brood war progamers contributed to professional gaming is more important than what ' x top fighting game player ' contributed.
I'd say helping to grow a flourishing community when no fighting games were being released for almost 10 years is a very big contribution, Alex Valle for example has done a shit ton of work investing loads of his time and money building the scene in SoCal and I think it's totally unfair to think that a korean SC:BW player just playing the game has contributed to the scene other than shrewd marketing capitolizing on their talent.
Great article, however i feel like there are some other reason why sc2 and other games are getting so big while fighting games aren't. I also know very little about fighting games so some of my arguments concerning them might not be that good.
First and this mostly for sc2 and League of legend (the lol's scene is less "pro" than sc2 but with that many viewers nobody can deny that they are big) they are nearly the only game of this type. - For rts, not that many at good at high level and the best one are getting very (very very for bw) old which limitate drasticly the number of player. If you are into RTS and you are not actualy playing one at a decent level you will play sc2. - For moba, there aren't that many and most of them are either old, bad or not "noob friendly" at all. LoL is very esay to start gameplay wise.
Therefore this two games have a huge player base which naturely tend to an active competitive scene (when the game permit it which is the case, very frequent balance patchs helps a lot too). On the other hand there are a lot of fighting games with the community spliting a lot between them making it harder to have a very large and active community.
Once you have a competitve scene to get big you obviously need money (for obvious reasons) and for that you need viewers. And for that i think the single most important thing is a game farly esay to understand/follow when you know nothing to very little of the game. I'm not saying understanding everything but enough. - For sc2 : you see absolutly everything on the screen, mini-map + production tab always show you 95% of what you need to know to understand what is happening. - League of legend : It's going to be the same argument you have everything on screen. And for both this game when something huge is happened you see it clearly and understand it without having to know the game (when someone lose 30mutas to storm it's pretty esay to understand).
- Halo (never watched nor played FPS, been watching a little lately so i can talk about from this point of view), you also see pretty esaly what is happening and you understand the grand lines of what they are trying to do witthout knowing that much.
On the other hand beside the fact that i see absolutly everything happening in a fighting game i find it hader to follow what is happening and the games beeing as fast as they are the caster can't really explain it to me, making it a little less enjoyable.
And to finish it's much more esay to see the skill of a player in a RTS/FPS game that in a fighting game. - RTS (sc2) : If you ever played any rts in your life you understand farely esay the kind of APM you are going to need just to make stuff and when you see them do it nearly perfectly while doing 2 or 3 other thing at the same time you see without a doubt how fast there hands. - FPS : thing happen very fast and great accuracy in shot show a great skill.
Whereas in fighting games with little knowledge of the game skill doesn't show as much and it looks a little more than "smashing" and again game beeing that fast pace the casters don't really have time to point it out for people not knowing it .
On December 14 2011 08:21 UltraDavid wrote: Lol pop? "Educated" listener, implying you're the educated one? Haha too good, that's goin on the ol Twitterland asap.
Anyway, stay ignorant buddy
Why do you do shit like this? What if day9 went into the SRK forums, found some ignorant person and posted their obscure opinion on twitter going "lolol look at this idiot?"
Not cool man, there is discussion and there there is running back to your twitter so a bunch of people who agree with you can say "yeah david you are the man you tell 'em whats up!"
You don't give your commentators, especially yourself enough credit. As a non fighting game player, I rather watch a stream with you and/or James Chen than one without commentary or one that has guys just trying to get things "hype" (yelling a lot, making up words; the other style that's less analytical) because I don't understand the minor details that are going on. I know when guys are punching/kicking, I know when there's a flashy combo and a character might die, I understand the obvious things going on but I don't know the deeper strategy those players are trying to use or why people pick team XYZ in MvC or if XvY is a good or bad match up for X. When you guys fill that in, it helps me stay interested since I'm now informed. There's things to look for that I wouldn't have known unless I played or did research myself.
For people who already play the games or know these things it's not useful but to any outsiders.. which I think is something the FGC is going to want to grow, commentators are going to be very important. Say MvC gets picked up by MLG. The value of your commentary over having nothing is HUGE to any SC2, LoL, Halo, etc viewer who tunes in but isn't exactly sure on what's going on other than what looks like "guys mashing buttons".
I really enjoyed this article, it brings up a lot of interesting points and its fascinating to see how other people view their respective scenes. The conclusion was a little surprising to me as well, after talking for so long about why the FG scene is so reluctant to work with outside organizations it ends on hopeful note about being open to situations that let you express yourselves in the way your scene has always manifested. That startles me a bit, because that goal -- growing only in ways we are comfortable with -- is quite literally my full time job. It's something we battle constantly in Starcraft, and is the main topic of discussions we have in TL's office. I've always felt like the fighting community undervalues the amount of work we put into making that happen ourselves, perhaps we have just been luckier in recent tournaments being receptive to working with what we give them.
I also think the fighting game community's perspective on Blizzard's involvement is really unexpected. I seem to hear a lot from SF guys that Capcom blows so much they wish they got as much support as Blizzard gives, while I think you'll find around here our general view is that people wish Blizzard had no involvement and let us run everything ourselves (Blizz is the main obstacle in several things holding us back such as the map pool).
The sudden burst of articles on this over the last week has been really fun, looking forward to seeing how it develops.
Really really well written article. Demographics and developer support were really nice points. Ironically, as heyoka said, Blizz support is also a crutch that some people wish would be lessened.
Fighting games definitely have a real chance at blowing up and gettin big. It was super easy for me to watch Evo despite never playing fighting games competitively. The only fighting game I ever owned was Soulcaliber and that game's horrible for competitiveness lol.
I think the biggest reason why Ack says that fighting games have less depth than SC is partially because of the surface simplicity of the genre. The fact that everything that's happening is on screen masks the fact that there's a lot going on off screen - mind games, controlling space, etc... For RTS, DotA, FPS, it's a given that there's stuff happening off screen so it seems deeper when it may not necessarily be. One of the biggest draws and most interesting aspect of fighting games to me is how really good players can almost seem to be able to read their opponents mind to do the right move or w/e in a split second.
I'm really glad someone stepped in and made an article like this that really got into the differences of each scene's gaming culture and why there is friction when people say "do what StarCraft did!" It really helped me understand the points that inkblot made in the previous articles.
On December 14 2011 08:28 Ack1027 wrote: What mozart contributed to music is more important than what kanye west contributed.
What top tier brood war progamers contributed to professional gaming is more important than what ' x top fighting game player ' contributed.
I didn't say broodwar was the only true esport or fighting games were easy.
Edit: But anyway this is going off topic. And it seems we've said what we need to. Neither of us are changing the other's mind so I'll just say you wrote a good article and I had minor gripes about it. If you gotta throw shit up on twitter to feel better about validating your own opinion or showing the world how stupid 1 guy on a forum that nobody cares about...go for it.
Do you even know what UltraDavid's point was in making that article? Your responses and people like you have been counter productive because you are talking from the standpoint "our game is better than yours."
UltraDavid's opening and closing statements was a shout out to us for being enthusiastic about the prospects of the FGC becoming a bigger entity like SC2 and LoL have become. You guys lack tact.
His opening and closing statements was also a reproach to the FGC to be true to what they are but don't become insular to the point that they are dismissive of any opportunity when we, who exist in the esports scene, try to offer them opportunities to level up their professionalism, hype machines and revenue streams.
Please stop being an obnoxious ambassador for esports and get over the cursory comparisons he was making to BW and the other games mentioned in his article.
You did make some very good points that BW's start was very much like the FGC; but your other assertions and assumptions since making that relevant point are negatively impacting this discussion.
On December 14 2011 08:21 UltraDavid wrote: Lol pop? "Educated" listener, implying you're the educated one? Haha too good, that's goin on the ol Twitterland asap.
Anyway, stay ignorant buddy
Why do you do shit like this? What if day9 went into the SRK forums, found some ignorant person and posted their obscure opinion on twitter going "lolol look at this idiot?"
Not cool man, there is discussion and there there is running back to your twitter so a bunch of people who agree with you can say "yeah david you are the man you tell 'em whats up!"
Heh I think it'd be super awesome if he was in here getting involved. Like I said in the article, I'm just one of the guys in here, man, lemme rock. I'm also not really running back to my Twitter. I'm still here. I can't tweet about something I found hilarious?
On December 14 2011 09:06 Nenyim wrote: - For sc2 : you see absolutly everything on the screen, mini-map + production tab always show you 95% of what you need to know to understand what is happening. - League of legend : It's going to be the same argument you have everything on screen. And for both this game when something huge is happened you see it clearly and understand it without having to know the game (when someone lose 30mutas to storm it's pretty esay to understand).
- Halo (never watched nor played FPS, been watching a little lately so i can talk about from this point of view), you also see pretty esaly what is happening and you understand the grand lines of what they are trying to do witthout knowing that much. On the other hand beside the fact that i see absolutly everything happening in a fighting game i find it hader to follow what is happening and the games beeing as fast as they are the caster can't really explain it to me, making it a little less enjoyable.
And to finish it's much more esay to see the skill of a player in a RTS/FPS game that in a fighting game. - RTS (sc2) : If you ever played any rts in your life you understand farely esay the kind of APM you are going to need just to make stuff and when you see them do it nearly perfectly while doing 2 or 3 other thing at the same time you see without a doubt how fast there hands. - FPS : thing happen very fast and great accuracy in shot show a great skill.
Whereas in fighting games with little knowledge of the game skill doesn't show as much and it looks a little more than "smashing" and again game beeing that fast pace the casters don't really have time to point it out for people not knowing it .
Dang dude I totally disagree on all points.
For one thing, you can't see absolutely everything. I mean... you can't. You got the minimap down there but that doesn't tell enough of a story to count as showing everything. Production tabs are great but again, they don't show everything. Players regularly attack or defend in multiple places at once and the observer can only pick one to watch at a time. And why is the screen changing what it's showing so frequently, how can I keep track of all this? As for FPS, the games where you can go out of body and float around are easier to watch, but you still miss a gigantic chunk of the action. You can't see everyone's perspective simultaneously, which means you can't know everything that's going on. It's very common to just hear that a player other than the one being watched was killed or died, and that's too bad because you didn't get to see all the fun stuff that led up to it or how it was actually done. 100% of all action is on screen in fighting games, there's quite literally nothing else. The only even semi-exception is in superjump games like the Marvel vs Capcom series where for a brief split second the camera follows the jumping character and leaves the grounded one behind. But that's tiny, and in any case there's still a cursor showing where the grounded character is standing or moving. For every other game, you could not have more action on screen if you tried, because... well, there's just nothing else.
I also totally disagree that it's easier for basic viewers to understand what's going on in RTS. Take a person who's never played either genre, ask them to watch a stream for both genres, and see which one they understand fastest in a basic way. They'll have no idea what kind of APM or execution is required since they're not watching the players' hands, although seeing big combos would probably be more impressive than seeing units move around without seeing the players' perspective. They'll have no clue about tech trees or build orders or unit properties or losing which units is worse than losing others, etc. They might see one player's units swarm over and destroy the other's, and that's very understandable, but sometimes losing units isn't that big a deal anyway, plenty of games end when that isn't even happening, and all that can be confusing. They also won't know what the characters in fighting games do or what their moves and move properties are. But that big THIS IS HOW MUCH LIFE YOU GOT LEFT thing tells anyone, even a non-gamer, what the ultimate score is. So do the rounds-won indicators. Neither is hard to figure out; see a character get hit and lose stuff on that bar, realize it's how many times you can get hit. See a round end, see one of the rounds-won indicators, understand what they mean and how many it'll take to win. They'll see that big flashing thing at the bottom go away when the players do a big cinematic move and realize the two are connected. They also only need to invest 5-10 minutes of their time for most whole matches rather than up to an hour for RTS.
Again, ton of respect for RTS including BW, SC2, etc. I played the games myself and I watch regularly. Obviously to an informed observer for both genres, it just comes down to which one you prefer. That's cool. Absolutely no problem with people who are informed about both preferring RTS. What can you say against subjectivity? Nothin. And I hear you on why you think RTS might be simpler to get at the basic level. But just imo, I think that fighting games are significantly easier to understand for that kind of viewer.
It reads as though Shoryuken.com (EVO) basically wants have to control over all aspect of the fighting game tournament scene. They are just one major players amongst many other tournaments (NEC, Warzone, Showdown, etc), yet they have the biggest and basically ONLY voice (via Shoryuken website).
I've been in the fighting scene since the beginning. Before their tournaments were even called Evolution. Back then it was called the B series. When Shoryuken says they are doing things "for the players", its a load of crap. The truth is, there are many games we do not even care for at all. Shoryuken has sold out long time ago once they gotten big.
Hey UltraDavid, just wanted to let you know I'm a huge fan of James Chen and yourself. Your commentary makes viewing streams much much more enjoyable for me. I especially love the analytical information you both give, like frame data and match-ups.
One thing that I would like to note is that in the article you say that the FGC has come so far by itself, specifically streams and viewers numbers. I believe that the Starcraft community has played a vital role in streams across all genres, as it appears that streaming didn't really blow up until SC2 began to. I know for myself (and my brother, whom came up to and said hi to you at the NASL finals earlier this month) we probably wouldn't be playing or viewing fighting games at all if it weren't for SC2, but now we both own fightsticks, copies of MvC3, UMvC3 and AE and try to go to events in the SoCal area whenever I can.
Perhaps it's not a large portion of viewers or players, but that's still genuine growth of the community and an example of how we're all just gamers at heart, regardless of backgrounds.
On December 14 2011 10:22 UltraDavid wrote: Again, ton of respect for RTS including BW, SC2, etc. I played the games myself and I watch regularly. Obviously to an informed observer for both genres, it just comes down to which one you prefer. That's cool. Absolutely no problem with people who are informed about both preferring RTS. What can you say against subjectivity? Nothin. And I hear you on why you think RTS might be simpler to get at the basic level. But just imo, I think that fighting games are significantly easier to understand for that kind of viewer.
Subjectivity? Unlike you, some of us has been through the rise of BOTH starcraft and fighting games. You just know fighting games. History as shown that, RTS to be easier to understand & follow to the mainstream audience. Look at Korea and the numbers prove it. Korea has tried very hard with Tekken, and other fighting games. The result, it only attract a certain type of people.
For Starcraft players here and progaming, looking at other emerging scenes is like looking in the past. Been there, done that. Right now, you're resisting the inevitable.
The author of this article is underselling the FGC, they are a key component to esports, or rather the movement of competitive video games. Fighting genre, although having communities stretching across many games, is much closer to games that it is trying to separate themselves from.
First of all, what else to say then fighting and Halo/Cod share the same sponsorship market, aside from gaming pads all their equipment is similar. (tvs/monitors, xbox, gunnars, etc). Second the competitive aspect is not unlike that of FPS 1v1 DM games. The movement, reaction speed and understanding of opponents capabilities are all similar to the aspects of 1v1 DM. The parallels are very similar to other competitive video games, it seems the author of this article is holding other games at a arms length while smothering his own.
The biggest argument is that we come from different cultures, sc being white/asian affluent, and fighting being a black/hispanic poverty stricken culture. Which is a false dichotomy which he extracted from his own personal experience. First of all, he is a white affluent law student, he considers his friends to be intelligent, whilst at the same time claiming that they have been forced into the fringe of society due to outside pressures. It seems silly that the members of the community are any less off then the members of a sc community, except he does so by equate race to social standards. It seems fickle that he claims that the fighting scene is some how more attractive to poor people, when in reality, we all have a high standard of living if competing in video games takes a higher priority than working a 9-5.
Great article, would love to see more like this, especially if the fighting scene starts to formulate into something more concrete.
On December 14 2011 11:48 Holcan wrote: First of all, what else to say then fighting and Halo/Cod share the same sponsorship market, aside from gaming pads all their equipment is similar. (tvs/monitors, xbox, gunnars, etc). Second the competitive aspect is not unlike that of FPS 1v1 DM games. The movement, reaction speed and understanding of opponents capabilities are all similar to the aspects of 1v1 DM. The parallels are very similar to other competitive video games, it seems the author of this article is holding other games at a arms length while smothering his own.
This is a very valid point. Economically speaking, I think most people agree the FGC fits in to eSports nicely, sponsorships could work out very well and there are marketable players (Mike Ross, Combofiend and Yipes come to mind) while even those who aren't traditionally marketable have extremely large personalities that could probably be used to market something (Filipino Champ, Marn, etc.).
This, however
On December 14 2011 11:48 Holcan wrote: The biggest argument is that we come from different cultures, sc being white/asian affluent, and fighting being a black/hispanic poverty stricken culture. Which is a false dichotomy which he extracted from his own personal experience. First of all, he is a white affluent law student, he considers his friends to be intelligent, whilst at the same time claiming that they have been forced into the fringe of society due to outside pressures. It seems silly that the members of the community are any less off then the members of a sc community, except he does so by equate race to social standards. It seems fickle that he claims that the fighting scene is some how more attractive to poor people, when in reality, we all have a high standard of living if competing in video games takes a higher priority than working a 9-5.
is much less valid. Look at the crowd at something like East Coast Throwdown, Season's Beatings, or whatever FGC tournament you want, really. Compare that crowd to something at an MLG. They're different crowds. Hell, if this isn't objective enough, look at the winners of some of these tournaments - in Marvel, you could have Filipino Champ. In Street fighter, maybe Puerto Rican Balrog. In Mortal Kombat, perhaps CrazyDominican. I don't think you can find someone from any of these nationalities at the top of many major SC2 or other eSports tournaments (not that I follow MOBA or FPS closely enough to know for sure). As for the socioeconomic "9 to 5" aspect, it does exist. Clockw0rk didn't just invent a team so iconic that Day[9] named his Diablo 3 character after it, he also taught at public school. Hell, even Mike Ross worked as an event photographer before Cross Counter blew up, he describes it in his documentary. Combofiend shows up to Wednesday Night Fights (essentially a local practice meetup for SoCal pros) in a shirt and tie not because he's a man of class (which he is), but because he's coming from work.
On December 14 2011 11:48 Holcan wrote: First of all, what else to say then fighting and Halo/Cod share the same sponsorship market, aside from gaming pads all their equipment is similar. (tvs/monitors, xbox, gunnars, etc). Second the competitive aspect is not unlike that of FPS 1v1 DM games. The movement, reaction speed and understanding of opponents capabilities are all similar to the aspects of 1v1 DM. The parallels are very similar to other competitive video games, it seems the author of this article is holding other games at a arms length while smothering his own.
This is a very valid point. Economically speaking, I think most people agree the FGC fits in to eSports nicely, sponsorships could work out very well and there are marketable players (Mike Ross, Combofiend and Yipes come to mind) while even those who aren't traditionally marketable have extremely large personalities that could probably be used to market something (Filipino Champ, Marn, etc.).
On December 14 2011 11:48 Holcan wrote: The biggest argument is that we come from different cultures, sc being white/asian affluent, and fighting being a black/hispanic poverty stricken culture. Which is a false dichotomy which he extracted from his own personal experience. First of all, he is a white affluent law student, he considers his friends to be intelligent, whilst at the same time claiming that they have been forced into the fringe of society due to outside pressures. It seems silly that the members of the community are any less off then the members of a sc community, except he does so by equate race to social standards. It seems fickle that he claims that the fighting scene is some how more attractive to poor people, when in reality, we all have a high standard of living if competing in video games takes a higher priority than working a 9-5.
is much less valid. Look at the crowd at something like East Coast Throwdown, Season's Beatings, or whatever FGC tournament you want, really. Compare that crowd to something at an MLG. They're different crowds. Hell, if this isn't objective enough, look at the winners of some of these tournaments - in Marvel, you could have Filipino Champ. In Street fighter, maybe Puerto Rican Balrog. In Mortal Kombat, perhaps CrazyDominican. I don't think you can find someone from any of these nationalities at the top of many major SC2 or other eSports tournaments (not that I follow MOBA or FPS closely enough to know for sure). As for the socioeconomic "9 to 5" aspect, it does exist. Clockw0rk didn't just invent a team so iconic that Day[9] named his Diablo 3 character after it, he also taught at public school. Hell, even Mike Ross worked as an event photographer before Cross Counter blew up, he describes it in his documentary. Combofiend shows up to Wednesday Night Fights (essentially a local practice meetup for SoCal pros) in a shirt and tie not because he's a man of class (which he is), but because he's coming from work.
MajOr? Catz? They're both prominent Hispanic players in the SC2 community.
^^ That's two of a much smaller minority. I don't have the intent of compiling a comprehensive list of black or Hispanic elite fighting game players, but if I did it'd be rather lengthy.
What's funny is that arcade players use to hate on console (and players) so much. Didn't consider them legit until they played in the arcade. Now arcade is dead. While it is true that most of the competition were found in the arcade, you were automatically dismissed if you prefer playing on a console (and/or pad).
On December 14 2011 12:25 JaYCheY wrote: ^^ That's two of a much smaller minority. I don't have the intent of compiling a comprehensive list of black or Hispanic elite fighting game players, but if I did it'd be rather lengthy.
I don't understand what this brings to the table, if anything, this reinforces the idea of having FG's in larger leagues. Yes, many of the pros work in 9-5 jobs but would prefer not to, why not start to eliminate this by growing the scene even bigger?
On December 14 2011 12:25 JaYCheY wrote: ^^ That's two of a much smaller minority. I don't have the intent of compiling a comprehensive list of black or Hispanic elite fighting game players, but if I did it'd be rather lengthy.
I don't understand what this brings to the table, if anything, this reinforces the idea of having FG's in larger leagues. Yes, many of the pros work in 9-5 jobs but would prefer not to, why not start to eliminate this by growing the scene even bigger?
Well that's the debate in itself. Everyone knows/agrees that having fighters enter the general MLG/eSports realm would be great economically, but the fear is that the socioeconomic barriers between the FGC and eSports are too great for them to exist as one. These barriers just happen to be shown through the existence of 9-5s in this example, because Holcan suggested that both types of competitive gamers are able to value gaming over holding a job.
Honestly I think the most major difference is that the fighting game community is mostly filled with players (at least until streams really took off) while the Starcraft community is mostly spectators.
It's kind of obvious, really, when you look at for example TL/Reddit vs Shoryuken. I would say that most people here on TL are not truly competitors outside of laddering. The main connection to the competitions is watching tournaments and streams. Hell, I've never played a game of SC2.
I think the fighting game community doesn't need to do any convincing right now, to be honest. Just keep on keeping on. Things are going well right now, there's no need to hurry. At the beginning SC2 wasn't what it was now, not right away. The hostility from parts of the BW sector was immense. A lot of people were rooting against it, even. But I think by this point it's clear that SC2 has earned its place in the competitive gaming world. In five years I think the entire Starcraft community will see what you guys are all about.
edit: the way some fgc guys use "esports" is kind of bothering me. Whatever you might say about the word itself, fighting games are esports. Or competitive games. Or whatever you want to call it. The core concept is the same. You fight to get better, you get better to fight. To refer to the commercial structure (I guess?) of the SC2 scene as "esports" is like how mainstream media calls random guys from 4chan doing shit "anonymous".
On December 14 2011 12:25 JaYCheY wrote: ^^ That's two of a much smaller minority. I don't have the intent of compiling a comprehensive list of black or Hispanic elite fighting game players, but if I did it'd be rather lengthy.
I don't understand what this brings to the table, if anything, this reinforces the idea of having FG's in larger leagues. Yes, many of the pros work in 9-5 jobs but would prefer not to, why not start to eliminate this by growing the scene even bigger?
Well that's the debate in itself. Everyone knows/agrees that having fighters enter the general MLG/eSports realm would be great economically, but the fear is that the socioeconomic barriers between the FGC and eSports are too great for them to exist as one. These barriers just happen to be shown through the existence of 9-5s in this example, because Holcan suggested that both types of competitive gamers are able to value gaming over holding a job.
Don't you understand, FGC and esports are one in the same, before last year RTS was more of a "fringe" esport in Western cultures than fighting games were. Every time I tell someone that I compete in video games, I am linked to the Diago scene. The common person isn't talking about Boxers SCV rush, nor do they take the time to understand the intricacies involved in a game like this, Diago parrying? Everyone can see and respect that, even if they don't completely understand the skill required to pull it off. The fighting scene adds a lot to the video as well, just be being overwhelming load while surrounding the players, adding pressure to the scenario, making Diago's win climax at a high point.
I have more to post, but I have to leave and comeback to the discussion for me to be able to travel word my opinion correctly, the essential argument is that sc2 players need a 9-5 just as much as the FGC, its just that the sc2 players take Day9's word of advice of "make esports happen" to heart, and devote themselves to the progression of the scene. If the fighting scene had an experienced, well spoken, ex player come out every week, or after every majour, and breakdown the meta game of the fighting scene, the growth would be exponential, like that of sc2. RTS has been a fringe esport in America/Western society until sc2 was released, and with the collective actions of the merged wc3 and sc2 scenes, as well as the focus from international gaming organizations allowed sc2 to become what it has.
Essentially, the FGC has been relevant (outside the deadzone) for 20 years, RTS has only been relevant outside Korea for about 16 months.
On December 14 2011 11:08 ICarrotU wrote: Hey UltraDavid, just wanted to let you know I'm a huge fan of James Chen and yourself. Your commentary makes viewing streams much much more enjoyable for me. I especially love the analytical information you both give, like frame data and match-ups.
One thing that I would like to note is that in the article you say that the FGC has come so far by itself, specifically streams and viewers numbers. I believe that the Starcraft community has played a vital role in streams across all genres, as it appears that streaming didn't really blow up until SC2 began to. I know for myself (and my brother, whom came up to and said hi to you at the NASL finals earlier this month) we probably wouldn't be playing or viewing fighting games at all if it weren't for SC2, but now we both own fightsticks, copies of MvC3, UMvC3 and AE and try to go to events in the SoCal area whenever I can.
Perhaps it's not a large portion of viewers or players, but that's still genuine growth of the community and an example of how we're all just gamers at heart, regardless of backgrounds.
Hey, that's great, I appreciate that. Hope you're enjoying Ultimate and 2012. Come say hi if you ever see me around.
On December 14 2011 10:22 UltraDavid wrote: Again, ton of respect for RTS including BW, SC2, etc. I played the games myself and I watch regularly. Obviously to an informed observer for both genres, it just comes down to which one you prefer. That's cool. Absolutely no problem with people who are informed about both preferring RTS. What can you say against subjectivity? Nothin. And I hear you on why you think RTS might be simpler to get at the basic level. But just imo, I think that fighting games are significantly easier to understand for that kind of viewer.
Subjectivity? Unlike you, some of us has been through the rise of BOTH starcraft and fighting games. You just know fighting games. History as shown that, RTS to be easier to understand & follow to the mainstream audience. Look at Korea and the numbers prove it. Korea has tried very hard with Tekken, and other fighting games. The result, it only attract a certain type of people.
For Starcraft players here and progaming, looking at other emerging scenes is like looking in the past. Been there, done that. Right now, you're resisting the inevitable.
Again, as I said in the (sigh...) very paragraph you quoted, I played StarCraft and Brood War. I also took WC3 seriously for a few months until I dropped it, helping form some of the early strats and contributing heavily to a couple of the major English speaking forums for it. I watched Brood War tournaments all the time. I still watch SC2! If you read the article, did it seem to you like I had no idea what I was talking about?
On December 14 2011 13:20 Redmark wrote: the fighting game community is mostly filled with players (at least until streams really took off) while the Starcraft community is mostly spectators.
This is very true and would have made a valuable addition to my article, thanks. It's been obvious in all my interactions with the SC community in person and online (including here), but I didn't think to put it in.
I'm a 27 y.o. gamer who has been playing since the age of 4. Starcraft is my favourite. Nothing is likely to displace it.
I do however also like FG's. There was a period back during my uni days that I was really into Tekken (Tag and 5) and Guilty Gear, I was going to local tournaments etc. It was great. Why'd I stop? The community was tiny. It was insular. It slowly bled to death. These days I watch streams for big FG events and fucking love it, but don't watch religiously. I don't play at all anymore.
You guys want to remain insular? That's your business. You're hurting nobody but yourselves by doing so.
Hello i'm new to this discussion, i'm 27 and i've played BW and FG for a looong time, have known & followed the bw/sc2 pro scene for more than 10 years and started playing in the arcade around 5yo like a madman, got NES @ 6, have always loved street fighter & fighting games in general, however I started following SSFIV "pro"scene and tournaments around a year ago, only internet as I'm from Spain.
I saw SSFIV in a game convention, felt it was much like the old SF with better graphics and bought xbox 360 that same week with ssfiv, after around 10 years with no console at home, thats the kind of guy i am, thats how much i love my games and my memories. 1 week later I ordered TE round2.
Before I state my opinion I feel I'll throw this information about myself so you can understand where this is coming from. I'd also like to tell that I really like your commentary Ultradavid, knowing the fundamentals about FG but being knew to SFIV your commentary was quite helpful at the start, specially because half of the cast was unknown to me, sites like srk (forums) were helpful later on.
Esports vs FGC
First of all, I see this happening one way or another, may take some time tho. I see Fighting games being played in big stages and I know it will be a success because the genre as many people before have explained, is really suited for easy understanding (basic layer it is), this also happened with BW, u see zeals dying to mines, u see 10 lings surrounding 3 zeals, u know whats going on, i agree however SF (will use it as example as it is more known) is EVEN easier to follow than BW, no discussion there. That and having a high skill-ceiling makes FG suited for the business, and thats what it is, a business.
Some of these businessman are approaching the whole thing from the wrong angle and thats why FGC is putting them on blast and I can totally relate there. I was yesterday watching Arturo Sanchez's stream and he was hearing a podcast where Spooky( FGC streamer) , VVV owner (or leader or w/e) and another guy were debating Esports vs FGC (which btw is a retarded thing to call this whoe discussion IMHO even though i do it too, i thought i'd clarify that) and well, while listening he was getting MAD, genuinely MAD. That big shot corporate guy kept talking about money, about how they could reward top players, about professionalism and quality streams, about how the reticency of FGC to join namely MLG and IPL was based on personal interests of Tournament Organizers and such, and man even I who believe FGC will be in this "eSports" bus sooner or later wanted to punch this guy in the face. He kept implying that FGC was stupid for not wanting their money. "THEY UNDERSTAND NOTHING" Art kept saying, and here I disagree with him, they do in some way.
They understand very well, but they only understand the business aspect of it, these kind of guys arent promoting ESPORTS at all, they think with their purse, the bigger the event the bigger the impact more money in their wallet. They don't give a shit about HYPE, or tradition or anything like that, they have money and want to make more, so they try to lure the product (ofc they see FGC as a product, and a winning one too) with something they find it can be appealing: CHECKS.
Here comes the leagues, wanting FGC to join, and Capcom not being so sure about it, wow we have a problem here, totally understandable one at that.
There is also the professionalism issue, there is not very much of that in FGC, AND I LOVE IT FOR THAT. I love the drama, the hype and the trashtalk, thats some real sport smotions right there. The most professional in FGC must be Daigo, I totally see him playing in MLG, stoic, cold, pure skill, comparing him to Flash would be ok to a point, not in terms of dominance tho, so we could compare him to I dont know, maybe Oov in his prime, with Xellos personality. I even could see Tokido and many other players joining the leagues and fitting well(no ragging demon ) BUT, theres always a but, I don't want the top players and the top commentators only, I also want Marn trolling everybody, and JuiceBox (FGC's own FirebatHero) and commentators like Yipes or Arturo, even ChrisHu and JaHa (o_O) FFS, in FGC stream trolling starts in the event and its SO FUN. They keep it FUN. In SC2/BW you rarely have top players doing the commentary, and even then they focus on the game and the mindgames behind, it's another kind of commentary, it's another kind of sport. If the businessmen want FGC to join, they have first to understand them and for that THEY HAVE TO LIVE the FGC, so they can understand it and take a new approach.
It's all about knowing it and respecting it, so you can merge it with your model if possible, which I think it always is btw.
To the people thinking FGC is dumb because they don't want their top players/commentators/streamers, etc being well paid I'll say: you're wrong!!!!! but FGC wants it in another terms, they can't be a perfect fit for MLG(i keep saying MLG but it's about all the major leagues) right now, so it HAS to wait or FGC will be alienated.
It's not all about the 8.95 guys.
I hope this can be understandable, even tho i'm sure it will be quite disorganized i hope i took my point across, keep in mind english is not my first language. Again, sorry for my bad english.
holy shit david's article everywhere. gonna actually try and watch majority of this besides spooky's bit post school finals
having followed fighting games since 2005 and competing since 2008, i gotta say i'm extremely happy with the way fighting games are today especially compared to the dark days. looking back where "giant" tournaments of 50-60 ppl max and matches were being commentated over srk irc/threads, to now where we got 200+ entrants in tournaments + major streams once/twice a month. Do i want to see more sponsorships/money grow more where more deserving players get paid? Yes. Do i want to see FG's blow up even more and get more limelight? Hell yes. but as of now, looking back to what it was before, i'm extremely content with the way the community/progress is atm
holy shit david's article everywhere. gonna actually try and watch majority of this besides spooky's bit post school finals
having followed fighting games since 2005 and competing since 2008, i gotta say i'm extremely happy with the way fighting games are today especially compared to the dark days. looking back where "giant" tournaments of 50-60 ppl max and matches were being commentated over srk irc/threads, to now where we got 200+ entrants in tournaments + major streams once/twice a month. Do i want to see more sponsorships/money grow more where more deserving players get paid? Yes. Do i want to see FG's blow up even more and get more limelight? Hell yes. but as of now, looking back to what it was before, i'm extremely content with the way the community/progress is atm
edit: kof 13 for mlg ^^
I guess Tom is a God now, he can do no wrong and has no vested interest in keeping a monopoly on the FGC.
From the video anyway, but more to your paragraph is that you're extremely content with the progress is atm. It's pretty clear that the progress has been slackened directly by people not wanting to cooperate.
And then you want to see more sponsorships/money, more limelight, but then you're extremely happy with the way the FGC has been deliberately slowing progress? I don't understand that, I can understand the conservatism that the FGC wants to uphold (to some degree), but being extremely happy with the FGC and then wanting more sponsorships/money/limelight are completely opposite viewpoints.
holy shit david's article everywhere. gonna actually try and watch majority of this besides spooky's bit post school finals
having followed fighting games since 2005 and competing since 2008, i gotta say i'm extremely happy with the way fighting games are today especially compared to the dark days. looking back where "giant" tournaments of 50-60 ppl max and matches were being commentated over srk irc/threads, to now where we got 200+ entrants in tournaments + major streams once/twice a month. Do i want to see more sponsorships/money grow more where more deserving players get paid? Yes. Do i want to see FG's blow up even more and get more limelight? Hell yes. but as of now, looking back to what it was before, i'm extremely content with the way the community/progress is atm
edit: kof 13 for mlg ^^
I guess Tom is a God now, he can do no wrong and has no vested interest in keeping a monopoly on the FGC.
From the video anyway, but more to your paragraph is that you're extremely content with the progress is atm. It's pretty clear that the progress has been slackened directly by people not wanting to cooperate.
And then you want to see more sponsorships/money, more limelight, but then you're extremely happy with the way the FGC has been deliberately slowing progress? I don't understand that, I can understand the conservatism that the FGC wants to uphold (to some degree), but being extremely happy with the FGC and then wanting more sponsorships/money/limelight are completely opposite viewpoints.
I would love to know what your definition of "deliberately slowing progress" is. And there is absolutely nothing contradictory about being happy with where you are while wanting more. Not at all.
For people that don't quite get it: CEO is a big tournament in the FGC. its been running for 2 years now, even getting international competition all the way from Japan.
How did CEO start?
An event called GAMME, run by an outside company with big goals was being set up. $5000 pot bonuses for each game, tons of international players, etc etc. People booked up for it to support this great event. Then about a month before it happened, some people got in contact with a few of the Japanese players who were going to be participating in it, and none of them knew what they were talking about. At the same time, the TO (tournament organizer) for the Smash tourney at the event pulled out. Suddenly, the guy in charge wasn't answering any messages or phone calls.
In the wake of the giant scam, Jebailey and some others (I dont know the smash players' names) set up CEO, Community Effort Orlando, in a matter of 2 weeks so that people who had booked flights and hotels in Orlando would still have a tournament to go to, even if all the big promises had been lies.
The fighting game community has damn good reasons to be hesitant towards esports organizations, especially when said organizations want to ignore over 15 years of community and do things their own way.
Just a quick glance at MLG: things that are unanimously hated by the community (extended series) stay in place despite massive negative feedback. Something like that just doesn't happen when the guys in charge are players themselves.
And to answer the above, yes, Tom Cannon is a saint in the fighting game community. He has tried to work with esports companies far past 2005, despite guys like in the video claiming the opposite. Remember 2010 Evo SF4 Grand Finals? Guest commentary and TV coverage by G4 and Adam Sessler. It was fucking horrible, and that mistake won't be repeated. But the community is trying, we're just not about to hand over the keys to MLG and be like Halo, which now doesn't know what to do as a community since it's not the big dog at MLG anymore.
I guess Tom is a God now, he can do no wrong and has no vested interest in keeping a monopoly on the FGC.
From the video anyway, but more to your paragraph is that you're extremely content with the progress is atm. It's pretty clear that the progress has been slackened directly by people not wanting to cooperate.
And then you want to see more sponsorships/money, more limelight, but then you're extremely happy with the way the FGC has been deliberately slowing progress? I don't understand that, I can understand the conservatism that the FGC wants to uphold (to some degree), but being extremely happy with the FGC and then wanting more sponsorships/money/limelight are completely opposite viewpoints.
Being happy with the community and wanting more sponsorships/money/limelight are not completely opposite views.
What the FGC is doing is to set priorities straight. Making a profit is fine, but FGC doesn't want to do it at the expense of community.
The person Sp00ky was replying only offered paying people for their work. In short, he was about making a profit selling fighting games matches, a product the FGC can provide. There was nothing about strenghtening the community. Creating an spectator-only crowd or selling a product to spectators is not part of the FGC definition of a stronger community.
The impression I get from the ESPORT crowd is that when there is no strong sense of an active, offline, in person playing community, success and growth are measured with profitability. I think it's a very dangerous proposition, because the relevance and lifeline of your community is directly tied to how much money your game makes to Blizzard, MLG, etc.
My fascination with Korean Brood War did start from the fact it became a profitable activity, but they also have an important difference to ESPORTS: they are largely autonomous, just like the FGC community. It is no coincidence BW in Korea has survived Blizzard's plan for obsolescence.
holy shit david's article everywhere. gonna actually try and watch majority of this besides spooky's bit post school finals
having followed fighting games since 2005 and competing since 2008, i gotta say i'm extremely happy with the way fighting games are today especially compared to the dark days. looking back where "giant" tournaments of 50-60 ppl max and matches were being commentated over srk irc/threads, to now where we got 200+ entrants in tournaments + major streams once/twice a month. Do i want to see more sponsorships/money grow more where more deserving players get paid? Yes. Do i want to see FG's blow up even more and get more limelight? Hell yes. but as of now, looking back to what it was before, i'm extremely content with the way the community/progress is atm
edit: kof 13 for mlg ^^
I guess Tom is a God now, he can do no wrong and has no vested interest in keeping a monopoly on the FGC.
From the video anyway, but more to your paragraph is that you're extremely content with the progress is atm. It's pretty clear that the progress has been slackened directly by people not wanting to cooperate.
And then you want to see more sponsorships/money, more limelight, but then you're extremely happy with the way the FGC has been deliberately slowing progress? I don't understand that, I can understand the conservatism that the FGC wants to uphold (to some degree), but being extremely happy with the FGC and then wanting more sponsorships/money/limelight are completely opposite viewpoints.
I would love to know what your definition of "deliberately slowing progress" is. And there is absolutely nothing contradictory about being happy with where you are while wanting more. Not at all.
You think the FGC has been an open book to eSports. I wasn't saying there was contradiction with being happy with where you are and wanting more, but being happy with the FGC and wanting more is contradictory.
I guess Tom is a God now, he can do no wrong and has no vested interest in keeping a monopoly on the FGC.
From the video anyway, but more to your paragraph is that you're extremely content with the progress is atm. It's pretty clear that the progress has been slackened directly by people not wanting to cooperate.
And then you want to see more sponsorships/money, more limelight, but then you're extremely happy with the way the FGC has been deliberately slowing progress? I don't understand that, I can understand the conservatism that the FGC wants to uphold (to some degree), but being extremely happy with the FGC and then wanting more sponsorships/money/limelight are completely opposite viewpoints.
Being happy with the community and wanting more sponsorships/money/limelight are not completely opposite views.
What the FGC is doing is to set priorities straight. Making a profit is fine, but FGC doesn't want to do it at the expense of community.
The person Sp00ky was replying only offered paying people for their work. In short, he was about making a profit selling fighting games matches, a product the FGC can provide. There was nothing about strenghtening the community. Creating an spectator-only crowd or selling a product to spectators is not part of the FGC definition of a stronger community.
The impression I get from the ESPORT crowd is that when there is no strong sense of an active, offline, in person playing community, success and growth are measured with profitability. I think it's a very dangerous proposition, because the relevance and lifeline of your community is directly tied to how much money your game makes to Blizzard, MLG, etc.
My fascination with Korean Brood War did start from the fact it became a profitable activity, but they also have an important difference to ESPORTS: they are largely autonomous, just like the FGC community. It is no coincidence BW in Korea has survived Blizzard's plan for obsolescence.
-----
Warpticon: sup!
It's hardly dangerous. Make a profit and survive, that's how the world works.
And if FG's were added to the eSport crowd, they could/would make a profit or they wouldn't and go back to the way they were. It's not like if they stop being conservative assholes that they can't go back to being conservative assholes. But you know what? I want more FG content. I want more stuff to watch even though I haven't played a FG since I was a child going to arcades. But I can't get that because other people don't want it. Or they do but they won't say how to do it.
"Oh, I'd love more sponsorship/money/limelight, but not the way you're doing it even though it works!"
Then come up with something better right now so I can watch to my hearts content like I can with SC2/DotA2. But right now, I can watch people streaming (started in November 2011, way fucking late) and I watched CanadaCup. But since then, nothing. I don't even know what's happening until next Evo because I didn't start watching FG's until 2011.
Fighting game matches just have something about them that's interesting to watch, especially with good commentary (explaining no, he's not turtling, he's just not blinding rushing into x y and z that can punish careless play because it's a unfavorable matchup at the moment).
Actually playing fighting games, for me, feels like having to learn an entire language just to get started, though it seems to have some transfer ability between games. Just not a mountain I've ever managed to climb. I also have terrible split second timing, so I'd suck anyway haha. Stupid technical limitations... oh well, the alternative is the Nintendo route so I think I'm content with sucking (and knowing I need to learn Go eventually - lack of finger dexterity isn't really a limiting factor there).
Now some games are more spectator friendly than others, but there's some definite entertainment value there.
On December 15 2011 10:48 Hnnngg wrote: It's hardly dangerous. Make a profit and survive, that's how the world works.
And if FG's were added to the eSport crowd, they could/would make a profit or they wouldn't and go back to the way they were. It's not like if they stop being conservative assholes that they can't go back to being conservative assholes. But you know what? I want more FG content. I want more stuff to watch even though I haven't played a FG since I was a child going to arcades. But I can't get that because other people don't want it. Or they do but they won't say how to do it.
"Oh, I'd love more sponsorship/money/limelight, but not the way you're doing it even though it works!"
Then come up with something better right now so I can watch to my hearts content like I can with SC2/DotA2. But right now, I can watch people streaming (started in November 2011, way fucking late) and I watched CanadaCup. But since then, nothing. I don't even know what's happening until next Evo because I didn't start watching FG's until 2011.
Just so you know, the community is not there to serve you, a passive "stream monster" with no interest of getting involved. That's quite some selfishness. And you call the FGC assholes?
The ESPORT model is very dangerous not because of the profit model. Its dangerous because it is not you who determines your own worth.
Yes, there is a better model: profitability with autonomy. FGC has autonomy. ESPORTS offers profit, but the FGC won't take it at the expense of autonomy. Korean Brood War is both profitable and autonomous; it is corporate backed, but its autonomy allows it to look for new sponsors instead of dying right away after losing sponsorship.
I have a hard time to believe Starcraft II will survive for long once Blizzard moves on something else.
Fighting games might come and go, but what the community plays is not up to Capcom or ArcSys or SNK or whatever.
On December 15 2011 11:35 VManOfMana wrote: Just so you know, the community is not there to serve you, a passive "stream monster" with no interest of getting involved. That's quite some selfishness. And you call the FGC assholes?
The ESPORT model is very dangerous not because of the profit model. Its dangerous because it is not you who determines your own worth.
Yes, there is a better model: profitability with autonomy. FGC has autonomy. ESPORTS offers profit, but the FGC won't take it at the expense of autonomy. Korean Brood War is both profitable and autonomous; it is corporate backed, but its autonomy allows it to look for new sponsors instead of dying right away after losing sponsorship.
I have a hard time to believe Starcraft II will survive for long once Blizzard moves on something else.
Fighting games might come and go, but what the community plays is not up to Capcom or ArcSys or SNK or whatever.
What's to get involved with? I pay my 8.95 (I actually did, no joke). And it's not up to me what I'm worth, I'm not experienced enough to determine that. I defer to my elders within eSports to determine that.
What has Blizzard done for SC2? They don't do anything outside of balance and their shitty Blizzcon tournament. And I absolutely hate Korean BW. So few tournaments, low low content for English, and nothing personal without being a coreaboo.
They don't have anything else to move on to, so that's cute. And if you lose sponsorship that's your own fault. Earn your keep and you won't die.
holy shit david's article everywhere. gonna actually try and watch majority of this besides spooky's bit post school finals
having followed fighting games since 2005 and competing since 2008, i gotta say i'm extremely happy with the way fighting games are today especially compared to the dark days. looking back where "giant" tournaments of 50-60 ppl max and matches were being commentated over srk irc/threads, to now where we got 200+ entrants in tournaments + major streams once/twice a month. Do i want to see more sponsorships/money grow more where more deserving players get paid? Yes. Do i want to see FG's blow up even more and get more limelight? Hell yes. but as of now, looking back to what it was before, i'm extremely content with the way the community/progress is atm
edit: kof 13 for mlg ^^
I guess Tom is a God now, he can do no wrong and has no vested interest in keeping a monopoly on the FGC.
From the video anyway, but more to your paragraph is that you're extremely content with the progress is atm. It's pretty clear that the progress has been slackened directly by people not wanting to cooperate.
And then you want to see more sponsorships/money, more limelight, but then you're extremely happy with the way the FGC has been deliberately slowing progress? I don't understand that, I can understand the conservatism that the FGC wants to uphold (to some degree), but being extremely happy with the FGC and then wanting more sponsorships/money/limelight are completely opposite viewpoints.
I would love to know what your definition of "deliberately slowing progress" is. And there is absolutely nothing contradictory about being happy with where you are while wanting more. Not at all.
You think the FGC has been an open book to eSports. I wasn't saying there was contradiction with being happy with where you are and wanting more, but being happy with the FGC and wanting more is contradictory.
I honestly have no idea what the bolded means, and the rest is you saying the exact same thing in very slightly different words while saying one is not contradictory and the other is. *headscratch* There is absolutely nothing remotely contradictory about anyone, in any situation, having contentment and ambition at once. Yes, people want to see the fighting game scene grow and more avenues for money arise. Yes, leagues can help facilitate that, but they aren't the only avenue to achieve that. And it doesn't help with the apprehension when you have people like Jerry from vVv talking to Spooky in the most condescending manner possible while completely misconstruing the message and intent of UltraDavid's article.
I guess Tom is a God now, he can do no wrong and has no vested interest in keeping a monopoly on the FGC.
From the video anyway, but more to your paragraph is that you're extremely content with the progress is atm. It's pretty clear that the progress has been slackened directly by people not wanting to cooperate.
And then you want to see more sponsorships/money, more limelight, but then you're extremely happy with the way the FGC has been deliberately slowing progress? I don't understand that, I can understand the conservatism that the FGC wants to uphold (to some degree), but being extremely happy with the FGC and then wanting more sponsorships/money/limelight are completely opposite viewpoints.
Being happy with the community and wanting more sponsorships/money/limelight are not completely opposite views.
What the FGC is doing is to set priorities straight. Making a profit is fine, but FGC doesn't want to do it at the expense of community.
The person Sp00ky was replying only offered paying people for their work. In short, he was about making a profit selling fighting games matches, a product the FGC can provide. There was nothing about strenghtening the community. Creating an spectator-only crowd or selling a product to spectators is not part of the FGC definition of a stronger community.
The impression I get from the ESPORT crowd is that when there is no strong sense of an active, offline, in person playing community, success and growth are measured with profitability. I think it's a very dangerous proposition, because the relevance and lifeline of your community is directly tied to how much money your game makes to Blizzard, MLG, etc.
My fascination with Korean Brood War did start from the fact it became a profitable activity, but they also have an important difference to ESPORTS: they are largely autonomous, just like the FGC community. It is no coincidence BW in Korea has survived Blizzard's plan for obsolescence.
-----
Warpticon: sup!
It's hardly dangerous. Make a profit and survive, that's how the world works.
And if FG's were added to the eSport crowd, they could/would make a profit or they wouldn't and go back to the way they were. It's not like if they stop being conservative assholes that they can't go back to being conservative assholes. But you know what? I want more FG content. I want more stuff to watch even though I haven't played a FG since I was a child going to arcades. But I can't get that because other people don't want it. Or they do but they won't say how to do it.
"Oh, I'd love more sponsorship/money/limelight, but not the way you're doing it even though it works!"
Then come up with something better right now so I can watch to my hearts content like I can with SC2/DotA2. But right now, I can watch people streaming (started in November 2011, way fucking late) and I watched CanadaCup. But since then, nothing. I don't even know what's happening until next Evo because I didn't start watching FG's until 2011.
"Make a profit and survive" is a massive oversimplification. if it was that simple, no one would ever lose money, struggle, or shut down business. And furthermore, profit doesn't come in a vacuum. I That's the point that people have been trying to make, and I don't understand why it's so hard for some to grasp it. For most of the FGC, it's s not a spectator activity: it's a participation activity. Things that may impede on the capability for or quality of competition have a risk of detriment. That doesn't mean that it WILL be a detriment, but to dismiss the fact that it COULD be is just silly.
As for the rest, I'm honestly puzzled how you can not know about anything after Canada Cup if you actually knew about Canada Cup. How did you find out about it, and what's keeping you from finding more? It's really easy to find fighting game content to watch if you want to. If you use Teevox, there's a pulldown menu for fighting. There's the Option Select stream every Monday, 8 on the Break every Tuesday. Cross Counter has their live talk show on fighting game topics every Tuesday. Starbase, Big Two, and Wednesday Night Fights are streaming every Wednesday. There's usually a Norcal stream on Thursdays, too. Avoiding The Puddle streams Tekken from Super Arcade every Friday. Top players like Juicebox, NYCFurby, Justin Wong, Floe, Filipino Champ, Flash Metroid, and others have personal streams that go up at random times. Fighting game streams are posted on the front page of Shoryuken, IPlayWinner, EventHubs, and other news sites. Fighting game streams are on the front page of Twitch.tv. Several fighting game streamers are listed on gamescast.tv. Cross Counter has a live fighting game news show every Tuesday. There has been one major tournament (NEC, the first major for Ultimate Marvel vs Capcom 3), a steady diet of weeklies, and several high profile exhibitions such as LA Barfights and the SRK Showmatches since Canada Cup. SoCal Regionals happens this weekend. Several players and commentators have been on Live On 3 and Slasher's show both previewing and reviewing the events since Canada Cup happened, almost every week. Streams get talked about in the SSF4, UMvC3, and general fighting game threads on this very forum. If you have a legitimate interest, you almost have to be trying not to find stuff to watch to miss it.
holy shit david's article everywhere. gonna actually try and watch majority of this besides spooky's bit post school finals
having followed fighting games since 2005 and competing since 2008, i gotta say i'm extremely happy with the way fighting games are today especially compared to the dark days. looking back where "giant" tournaments of 50-60 ppl max and matches were being commentated over srk irc/threads, to now where we got 200+ entrants in tournaments + major streams once/twice a month. Do i want to see more sponsorships/money grow more where more deserving players get paid? Yes. Do i want to see FG's blow up even more and get more limelight? Hell yes. but as of now, looking back to what it was before, i'm extremely content with the way the community/progress is atm
edit: kof 13 for mlg ^^
I guess Tom is a God now, he can do no wrong and has no vested interest in keeping a monopoly on the FGC.
From the video anyway, but more to your paragraph is that you're extremely content with the progress is atm. It's pretty clear that the progress has been slackened directly by people not wanting to cooperate.
And then you want to see more sponsorships/money, more limelight, but then you're extremely happy with the way the FGC has been deliberately slowing progress? I don't understand that, I can understand the conservatism that the FGC wants to uphold (to some degree), but being extremely happy with the FGC and then wanting more sponsorships/money/limelight are completely opposite viewpoints.
I would love to know what your definition of "deliberately slowing progress" is. And there is absolutely nothing contradictory about being happy with where you are while wanting more. Not at all.
You think the FGC has been an open book to eSports. I wasn't saying there was contradiction with being happy with where you are and wanting more, but being happy with the FGC and wanting more is contradictory.
I honestly have no idea what the bolded means, and the rest is you saying the exact same thing in very slightly different words while saying one is not contradictory and the other is. *headscratch* There is absolutely nothing remotely contradictory about anyone, in any situation, having contentment and ambition at once. Yes, people want to see the fighting game scene grow and more avenues for money arise. Yes, leagues can help facilitate that, but they aren't the only avenue to achieve that. And it doesn't help with the apprehension when you have people like Jerry from vVv talking to Spooky in the most condescending manner possible while completely misconstruing the message and intent of UltraDavid's article.
I guess Tom is a God now, he can do no wrong and has no vested interest in keeping a monopoly on the FGC.
From the video anyway, but more to your paragraph is that you're extremely content with the progress is atm. It's pretty clear that the progress has been slackened directly by people not wanting to cooperate.
And then you want to see more sponsorships/money, more limelight, but then you're extremely happy with the way the FGC has been deliberately slowing progress? I don't understand that, I can understand the conservatism that the FGC wants to uphold (to some degree), but being extremely happy with the FGC and then wanting more sponsorships/money/limelight are completely opposite viewpoints.
Being happy with the community and wanting more sponsorships/money/limelight are not completely opposite views.
What the FGC is doing is to set priorities straight. Making a profit is fine, but FGC doesn't want to do it at the expense of community.
The person Sp00ky was replying only offered paying people for their work. In short, he was about making a profit selling fighting games matches, a product the FGC can provide. There was nothing about strenghtening the community. Creating an spectator-only crowd or selling a product to spectators is not part of the FGC definition of a stronger community.
The impression I get from the ESPORT crowd is that when there is no strong sense of an active, offline, in person playing community, success and growth are measured with profitability. I think it's a very dangerous proposition, because the relevance and lifeline of your community is directly tied to how much money your game makes to Blizzard, MLG, etc.
My fascination with Korean Brood War did start from the fact it became a profitable activity, but they also have an important difference to ESPORTS: they are largely autonomous, just like the FGC community. It is no coincidence BW in Korea has survived Blizzard's plan for obsolescence.
-----
Warpticon: sup!
It's hardly dangerous. Make a profit and survive, that's how the world works.
And if FG's were added to the eSport crowd, they could/would make a profit or they wouldn't and go back to the way they were. It's not like if they stop being conservative assholes that they can't go back to being conservative assholes. But you know what? I want more FG content. I want more stuff to watch even though I haven't played a FG since I was a child going to arcades. But I can't get that because other people don't want it. Or they do but they won't say how to do it.
"Oh, I'd love more sponsorship/money/limelight, but not the way you're doing it even though it works!"
Then come up with something better right now so I can watch to my hearts content like I can with SC2/DotA2. But right now, I can watch people streaming (started in November 2011, way fucking late) and I watched CanadaCup. But since then, nothing. I don't even know what's happening until next Evo because I didn't start watching FG's until 2011.
"Make a profit and survive" is a massive oversimplification. if it was that simple, no one would ever lose money, struggle, or shut down business. And furthermore, profit doesn't come in a vacuum. I That's the point that people have been trying to make, and I don't understand why it's so hard for some to grasp it. For most of the FGC, it's s not a spectator activity: it's a participation activity. Things that may impede on the capability for or quality of competition have a risk of detriment. That doesn't mean that it WILL be a detriment, but to dismiss the fact that it COULD be is just silly.
As for the rest, I'm honestly puzzled how you can not know about anything after Canada Cup if you actually knew about Canada Cup. How did you find out about it, and what's keeping you from finding more? It's really easy to find fighting game content to watch if you want to. If you use Teevox, there's a pulldown menu for fighting. There's the Option Select stream every Monday, 8 on the Break every Tuesday. Cross Counter has their live talk show on fighting game topics every Tuesday. Starbase, Big Two, and Wednesday Night Fights are streaming every Wednesday. There's usually a Norcal stream on Thursdays, too. Avoiding The Puddle streams Tekken from Super Arcade every Friday. Top players like Juicebox, NYCFurby, Justin Wong, Floe, Filipino Champ, Flash Metroid, and others have personal streams that go up at random times. Fighting game streams are posted on the front page of Shoryuken, IPlayWinner, EventHubs, and other news sites. Fighting game streams are on the front page of Twitch.tv. Several fighting game streamers are listed on gamescast.tv. Cross Counter has a live fighting game news show every Tuesday. There has been one major tournament (NEC, the first major for Ultimate Marvel vs Capcom 3), a steady diet of weeklies, and several high profile exhibitions such as LA Barfights and the SRK Showmatches since Canada Cup. SoCal Regionals happens this weekend. Several players and commentators have been on Live On 3 and Slasher's show both previewing and reviewing the events since Canada Cup happened, almost every week. Streams get talked about in the SSF4, UMvC3, and general fighting game threads on this very forum. If you have a legitimate interest, you almost have to be trying not to find stuff to watch to miss it.
Sup, VMan.
So you didn't like what Jerry said because he was condescending? From what I've seen the FGC is really hardcore and doesn't like being carebears. Oh well.
And it's not an oversimplification. I'm not saying that making a profit was easy, but that's what you need to do. You make a profit and then you live. That's how it works.
I seriously don't see how sponsored players getting full-time jobs being players will negatively affect the quality.
And I heard about Canada Cup from LO3. That's where I get all my FG stuff (aside from Wong/Ricky/EG twitter). And I don't want to watch daily streams. Streaming is cute, but online play cannot compare to offline play. I want to see huge-ass LANs with tons of hype and big-ass crowds chanting names. I don't get that outside of EVO with FGC, wasn't there less than 1000 people at CanadaCup and DevEvent? It's so smalltime and I don't like it.
Every time I read an article on Fighting games and ESPORTS in general, I get the sense that fighting game folks are really onto something.
There's so much talk about blowing up e-sports and supporting e-sportings and growing e-sports that I feel like people don't realize that it won't be just a jumbo version of what we have now. If it gets big enough, e-sports (and even just SC2) might not look anything like it does now. You may not enjoy what it turns into. Appreciate what it is now.
The fighting game folk have something going, and it's theirs. They know that if they grow it too fast, it's going to be someone else's. Maybe, to go along with UltraDavid's article, fighting gamers sometimes don't have anything else to hold onto, so they'll be damned before they let some outsiders in, even well-meaning ones.
holy shit david's article everywhere. gonna actually try and watch majority of this besides spooky's bit post school finals
having followed fighting games since 2005 and competing since 2008, i gotta say i'm extremely happy with the way fighting games are today especially compared to the dark days. looking back where "giant" tournaments of 50-60 ppl max and matches were being commentated over srk irc/threads, to now where we got 200+ entrants in tournaments + major streams once/twice a month. Do i want to see more sponsorships/money grow more where more deserving players get paid? Yes. Do i want to see FG's blow up even more and get more limelight? Hell yes. but as of now, looking back to what it was before, i'm extremely content with the way the community/progress is atm
edit: kof 13 for mlg ^^
I guess Tom is a God now, he can do no wrong and has no vested interest in keeping a monopoly on the FGC.
From the video anyway, but more to your paragraph is that you're extremely content with the progress is atm. It's pretty clear that the progress has been slackened directly by people not wanting to cooperate.
And then you want to see more sponsorships/money, more limelight, but then you're extremely happy with the way the FGC has been deliberately slowing progress? I don't understand that, I can understand the conservatism that the FGC wants to uphold (to some degree), but being extremely happy with the FGC and then wanting more sponsorships/money/limelight are completely opposite viewpoints.
I would love to know what your definition of "deliberately slowing progress" is. And there is absolutely nothing contradictory about being happy with where you are while wanting more. Not at all.
You think the FGC has been an open book to eSports. I wasn't saying there was contradiction with being happy with where you are and wanting more, but being happy with the FGC and wanting more is contradictory.
I honestly have no idea what the bolded means, and the rest is you saying the exact same thing in very slightly different words while saying one is not contradictory and the other is. *headscratch* There is absolutely nothing remotely contradictory about anyone, in any situation, having contentment and ambition at once. Yes, people want to see the fighting game scene grow and more avenues for money arise. Yes, leagues can help facilitate that, but they aren't the only avenue to achieve that. And it doesn't help with the apprehension when you have people like Jerry from vVv talking to Spooky in the most condescending manner possible while completely misconstruing the message and intent of UltraDavid's article.
On December 15 2011 10:48 Hnnngg wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:47 VManOfMana wrote:
I guess Tom is a God now, he can do no wrong and has no vested interest in keeping a monopoly on the FGC.
From the video anyway, but more to your paragraph is that you're extremely content with the progress is atm. It's pretty clear that the progress has been slackened directly by people not wanting to cooperate.
And then you want to see more sponsorships/money, more limelight, but then you're extremely happy with the way the FGC has been deliberately slowing progress? I don't understand that, I can understand the conservatism that the FGC wants to uphold (to some degree), but being extremely happy with the FGC and then wanting more sponsorships/money/limelight are completely opposite viewpoints.
Being happy with the community and wanting more sponsorships/money/limelight are not completely opposite views.
What the FGC is doing is to set priorities straight. Making a profit is fine, but FGC doesn't want to do it at the expense of community.
The person Sp00ky was replying only offered paying people for their work. In short, he was about making a profit selling fighting games matches, a product the FGC can provide. There was nothing about strenghtening the community. Creating an spectator-only crowd or selling a product to spectators is not part of the FGC definition of a stronger community.
The impression I get from the ESPORT crowd is that when there is no strong sense of an active, offline, in person playing community, success and growth are measured with profitability. I think it's a very dangerous proposition, because the relevance and lifeline of your community is directly tied to how much money your game makes to Blizzard, MLG, etc.
My fascination with Korean Brood War did start from the fact it became a profitable activity, but they also have an important difference to ESPORTS: they are largely autonomous, just like the FGC community. It is no coincidence BW in Korea has survived Blizzard's plan for obsolescence.
-----
Warpticon: sup!
It's hardly dangerous. Make a profit and survive, that's how the world works.
And if FG's were added to the eSport crowd, they could/would make a profit or they wouldn't and go back to the way they were. It's not like if they stop being conservative assholes that they can't go back to being conservative assholes. But you know what? I want more FG content. I want more stuff to watch even though I haven't played a FG since I was a child going to arcades. But I can't get that because other people don't want it. Or they do but they won't say how to do it.
"Oh, I'd love more sponsorship/money/limelight, but not the way you're doing it even though it works!"
Then come up with something better right now so I can watch to my hearts content like I can with SC2/DotA2. But right now, I can watch people streaming (started in November 2011, way fucking late) and I watched CanadaCup. But since then, nothing. I don't even know what's happening until next Evo because I didn't start watching FG's until 2011.
"Make a profit and survive" is a massive oversimplification. if it was that simple, no one would ever lose money, struggle, or shut down business. And furthermore, profit doesn't come in a vacuum. I That's the point that people have been trying to make, and I don't understand why it's so hard for some to grasp it. For most of the FGC, it's s not a spectator activity: it's a participation activity. Things that may impede on the capability for or quality of competition have a risk of detriment. That doesn't mean that it WILL be a detriment, but to dismiss the fact that it COULD be is just silly.
As for the rest, I'm honestly puzzled how you can not know about anything after Canada Cup if you actually knew about Canada Cup. How did you find out about it, and what's keeping you from finding more? It's really easy to find fighting game content to watch if you want to. If you use Teevox, there's a pulldown menu for fighting. There's the Option Select stream every Monday, 8 on the Break every Tuesday. Cross Counter has their live talk show on fighting game topics every Tuesday. Starbase, Big Two, and Wednesday Night Fights are streaming every Wednesday. There's usually a Norcal stream on Thursdays, too. Avoiding The Puddle streams Tekken from Super Arcade every Friday. Top players like Juicebox, NYCFurby, Justin Wong, Floe, Filipino Champ, Flash Metroid, and others have personal streams that go up at random times. Fighting game streams are posted on the front page of Shoryuken, IPlayWinner, EventHubs, and other news sites. Fighting game streams are on the front page of Twitch.tv. Several fighting game streamers are listed on gamescast.tv. Cross Counter has a live fighting game news show every Tuesday. There has been one major tournament (NEC, the first major for Ultimate Marvel vs Capcom 3), a steady diet of weeklies, and several high profile exhibitions such as LA Barfights and the SRK Showmatches since Canada Cup. SoCal Regionals happens this weekend. Several players and commentators have been on Live On 3 and Slasher's show both previewing and reviewing the events since Canada Cup happened, almost every week. Streams get talked about in the SSF4, UMvC3, and general fighting game threads on this very forum. If you have a legitimate interest, you almost have to be trying not to find stuff to watch to miss it.
Sup, VMan.
So you didn't like what Jerry said because he was condescending? From what I've seen the FGC is really hardcore and doesn't like being carebears. Oh well.
And it's not an oversimplification. I'm not saying that making a profit was easy, but that's what you need to do. You make a profit and then you live. That's how it works.
I seriously don't see how sponsored players getting full-time jobs being players will negatively affect the quality.
And I heard about Canada Cup from LO3. That's where I get all my FG stuff (aside from Wong/Ricky/EG twitter). And I don't want to watch daily streams. Streaming is cute, but online play cannot compare to offline play. I want to see huge-ass LANs with tons of hype and big-ass crowds chanting names. I don't get that outside of EVO with FGC, wasn't there less than 1000 people at CanadaCup and DevEvent? It's so smalltime and I don't like it.
Okay, so apparently you care more about the size of the in-person crowd than the actual content. Okay. Forget I ever said anything. (also, when did anybody say anything about online play?)
probably about the player's personal streams. 90% of the time, its the player streaming themselves in an online session. but still, if the amount of ppl there the only way you gauge a tournament stream worth watching or not, then that's just retarded imo. anyway.....
On December 15 2011 05:06 Hnnngg wrote: I guess Tom is a God now, he can do no wrong and has no vested interest in keeping a monopoly on the FGC.
From the video anyway, but more to your paragraph is that you're extremely content with the progress is atm. It's pretty clear that the progress has been slackened directly by people not wanting to cooperate.
And then you want to see more sponsorships/money, more limelight, but then you're extremely happy with the way the FGC has been deliberately slowing progress? I don't understand that, I can understand the conservatism that the FGC wants to uphold (to some degree), but being extremely happy with the FGC and then wanting more sponsorships/money/limelight are completely opposite viewpoints.
dude. look back about 3 years ago about a few months before sf4 dropped on console. besides smash being shown at mlg, fighting games and the community was basically comatose. my first ever tournament i attended was NEC 9 (the NEC b4 sf4 came out), and i only went to spectate. the entire venue at best probably had 300 players ballpark. next year at nec10, sf4 had almost 300 people+ just for sf4 itself. this year's nec was crazy too. it's hard to not be happy with the way the FGC is in comparison to back then. i don't think being happy with what we have atm but wanting more is completely polar viewpoints.
holy shit david's article everywhere. gonna actually try and watch majority of this besides spooky's bit post school finals
having followed fighting games since 2005 and competing since 2008, i gotta say i'm extremely happy with the way fighting games are today especially compared to the dark days. looking back where "giant" tournaments of 50-60 ppl max and matches were being commentated over srk irc/threads, to now where we got 200+ entrants in tournaments + major streams once/twice a month. Do i want to see more sponsorships/money grow more where more deserving players get paid? Yes. Do i want to see FG's blow up even more and get more limelight? Hell yes. but as of now, looking back to what it was before, i'm extremely content with the way the community/progress is atm
edit: kof 13 for mlg ^^
I guess Tom is a God now, he can do no wrong and has no vested interest in keeping a monopoly on the FGC.
From the video anyway, but more to your paragraph is that you're extremely content with the progress is atm. It's pretty clear that the progress has been slackened directly by people not wanting to cooperate.
And then you want to see more sponsorships/money, more limelight, but then you're extremely happy with the way the FGC has been deliberately slowing progress? I don't understand that, I can understand the conservatism that the FGC wants to uphold (to some degree), but being extremely happy with the FGC and then wanting more sponsorships/money/limelight are completely opposite viewpoints.
I would love to know what your definition of "deliberately slowing progress" is. And there is absolutely nothing contradictory about being happy with where you are while wanting more. Not at all.
You think the FGC has been an open book to eSports. I wasn't saying there was contradiction with being happy with where you are and wanting more, but being happy with the FGC and wanting more is contradictory.
I honestly have no idea what the bolded means, and the rest is you saying the exact same thing in very slightly different words while saying one is not contradictory and the other is. *headscratch* There is absolutely nothing remotely contradictory about anyone, in any situation, having contentment and ambition at once. Yes, people want to see the fighting game scene grow and more avenues for money arise. Yes, leagues can help facilitate that, but they aren't the only avenue to achieve that. And it doesn't help with the apprehension when you have people like Jerry from vVv talking to Spooky in the most condescending manner possible while completely misconstruing the message and intent of UltraDavid's article.
On December 15 2011 10:48 Hnnngg wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:47 VManOfMana wrote:
I guess Tom is a God now, he can do no wrong and has no vested interest in keeping a monopoly on the FGC.
From the video anyway, but more to your paragraph is that you're extremely content with the progress is atm. It's pretty clear that the progress has been slackened directly by people not wanting to cooperate.
And then you want to see more sponsorships/money, more limelight, but then you're extremely happy with the way the FGC has been deliberately slowing progress? I don't understand that, I can understand the conservatism that the FGC wants to uphold (to some degree), but being extremely happy with the FGC and then wanting more sponsorships/money/limelight are completely opposite viewpoints.
Being happy with the community and wanting more sponsorships/money/limelight are not completely opposite views.
What the FGC is doing is to set priorities straight. Making a profit is fine, but FGC doesn't want to do it at the expense of community.
The person Sp00ky was replying only offered paying people for their work. In short, he was about making a profit selling fighting games matches, a product the FGC can provide. There was nothing about strenghtening the community. Creating an spectator-only crowd or selling a product to spectators is not part of the FGC definition of a stronger community.
The impression I get from the ESPORT crowd is that when there is no strong sense of an active, offline, in person playing community, success and growth are measured with profitability. I think it's a very dangerous proposition, because the relevance and lifeline of your community is directly tied to how much money your game makes to Blizzard, MLG, etc.
My fascination with Korean Brood War did start from the fact it became a profitable activity, but they also have an important difference to ESPORTS: they are largely autonomous, just like the FGC community. It is no coincidence BW in Korea has survived Blizzard's plan for obsolescence.
-----
Warpticon: sup!
It's hardly dangerous. Make a profit and survive, that's how the world works.
And if FG's were added to the eSport crowd, they could/would make a profit or they wouldn't and go back to the way they were. It's not like if they stop being conservative assholes that they can't go back to being conservative assholes. But you know what? I want more FG content. I want more stuff to watch even though I haven't played a FG since I was a child going to arcades. But I can't get that because other people don't want it. Or they do but they won't say how to do it.
"Oh, I'd love more sponsorship/money/limelight, but not the way you're doing it even though it works!"
Then come up with something better right now so I can watch to my hearts content like I can with SC2/DotA2. But right now, I can watch people streaming (started in November 2011, way fucking late) and I watched CanadaCup. But since then, nothing. I don't even know what's happening until next Evo because I didn't start watching FG's until 2011.
"Make a profit and survive" is a massive oversimplification. if it was that simple, no one would ever lose money, struggle, or shut down business. And furthermore, profit doesn't come in a vacuum. I That's the point that people have been trying to make, and I don't understand why it's so hard for some to grasp it. For most of the FGC, it's s not a spectator activity: it's a participation activity. Things that may impede on the capability for or quality of competition have a risk of detriment. That doesn't mean that it WILL be a detriment, but to dismiss the fact that it COULD be is just silly.
As for the rest, I'm honestly puzzled how you can not know about anything after Canada Cup if you actually knew about Canada Cup. How did you find out about it, and what's keeping you from finding more? It's really easy to find fighting game content to watch if you want to. If you use Teevox, there's a pulldown menu for fighting. There's the Option Select stream every Monday, 8 on the Break every Tuesday. Cross Counter has their live talk show on fighting game topics every Tuesday. Starbase, Big Two, and Wednesday Night Fights are streaming every Wednesday. There's usually a Norcal stream on Thursdays, too. Avoiding The Puddle streams Tekken from Super Arcade every Friday. Top players like Juicebox, NYCFurby, Justin Wong, Floe, Filipino Champ, Flash Metroid, and others have personal streams that go up at random times. Fighting game streams are posted on the front page of Shoryuken, IPlayWinner, EventHubs, and other news sites. Fighting game streams are on the front page of Twitch.tv. Several fighting game streamers are listed on gamescast.tv. Cross Counter has a live fighting game news show every Tuesday. There has been one major tournament (NEC, the first major for Ultimate Marvel vs Capcom 3), a steady diet of weeklies, and several high profile exhibitions such as LA Barfights and the SRK Showmatches since Canada Cup. SoCal Regionals happens this weekend. Several players and commentators have been on Live On 3 and Slasher's show both previewing and reviewing the events since Canada Cup happened, almost every week. Streams get talked about in the SSF4, UMvC3, and general fighting game threads on this very forum. If you have a legitimate interest, you almost have to be trying not to find stuff to watch to miss it.
Sup, VMan.
So you didn't like what Jerry said because he was condescending? From what I've seen the FGC is really hardcore and doesn't like being carebears. Oh well.
And it's not an oversimplification. I'm not saying that making a profit was easy, but that's what you need to do. You make a profit and then you live. That's how it works.
I seriously don't see how sponsored players getting full-time jobs being players will negatively affect the quality.
And I heard about Canada Cup from LO3. That's where I get all my FG stuff (aside from Wong/Ricky/EG twitter). And I don't want to watch daily streams. Streaming is cute, but online play cannot compare to offline play. I want to see huge-ass LANs with tons of hype and big-ass crowds chanting names. I don't get that outside of EVO with FGC, wasn't there less than 1000 people at CanadaCup and DevEvent? It's so smalltime and I don't like it.
Okay, so apparently you care more about the size of the in-person crowd than the actual content. Okay. Forget I ever said anything. (also, when did anybody say anything about online play?)
That's how you get money and sponsorships. As far as I know, there aren't any professional FG players outside of Japan. You have guys that just play the games well. But not as well as they could, they could be so much better if they actually had the time to dedicate to playing instead of having jobs outside of progaming.
So you know what? I do care about the content because it could be better with an increase in the size of the in-person crowd.
Wow I finally read that whole article. Its really interresting. I've always wondered, why there were so many black ppl (not that there's anything wrong with that!) in those games. And I remember watching some clip on SRK some time ago, where some black dude where playing Daigo, and he was completely trash talking him Daigo because he took one round from him, and bashing him the rest of the match, even though he got owned afterwards. And everybody was just laughing (I admit I laughed to, but that was mostly because I found it weird that some scrub (I didnt know him) would talk like that to god (Daigo in my spectator eyes)), a top progamer who has been owning in this scene for over 10 years. But they probably werent laughing for the same reasons as I was. I was laughinh because he was a nobody scrub, but seems thats not how people look at it in the FGC, because its normal to just stand next to your opponent, when playing.
And to everybody: I really recommend reading the article. It's really good and it puts alot of stuff in perspective.
street fighter 3rd strike is probably the only game to rival bw at a real competitive level (broodwar not starcraft 2) one thing im also curious about is what has blizzard actually done to promote esports? all the development of esports was done by the community and definitely not blizzard they just made sure they benefited from it...
I can't be the only one who listened/watched that clip from the podcast and actually thought that Jerrith came out sounding a lot better than Spooky, right? I don't necessarily agree wholeheartedly with all of his points, but they certainly make sense and a lot of what he said is on the right track.
In a way, it is almost a micro-chasm of the arguments surrounding both sides condensed into that 7 minute clip.
On December 15 2011 15:52 I_Love_Bacon wrote: I can't be the only one who listened/watched that clip from the podcast and actually thought that Jerrith came out sounding a lot better than Spooky, right? I don't necessarily agree wholeheartedly with all of his points, but they certainly make sense and a lot of what he said is on the right track.
In a way, it is almost a micro-chasm of the arguments surrounding both sides condensed into that 7 minute clip.
*microcosm
Well, it depends. Did you actually read the article? All the way through? If you didn't, I can get how you might have that impression, to a point. If you did, though, then I don't know what to say, because the overwhelming majority of what Jerry was talking about was pure nonsense.
Jerry said "I think what Tom wrote, and what David wrote, which is 'I don't think this is gonna work, the cultures don't fit--" is complete bullcrap. In fact, it's pretty much the opposite of what they were saying. They weren't saying "We're different, so it won't work." They were saying "We're different, so it won't work the way everything else works, and if you're going to work with us, you need to acknowledge that." The last paragraph of UltraDavid's article:
"Nevertheless, I think the FGC is doing a great job building itself now and slowly starting to get away from its insularity even as it retains all the other things about what it is. The fighting game community doesn’t feel compelled to work with professional gaming leagues.At the same time, I expect that we’ll eventually go pro, either on our terms with something we create or working with informed established professional leagues. I think we can work together. There have already been examples of that. But as in any business venture, everyone involved has to make absolutely sure that they understand the other side."
How can any competent, intelligent, reasonable person read that and decide that UltraDavid was saying that it could never work?
Jerry: "I can go to any event and find something wrong, and then write about it. And that's exactly what David did, and that's disingenuous. David went to a NASL event, picked one small part of it out, and said 'look, it's not gonna work.'"
Um, no, he didn't. I can't even count how many ways this is wrong. For starters, David didn't say anything was wrong with his experience at NASL. He just said it was different. And that was the point: to highlight the differences in culture and expectations between the pro gaming circuit and the grassroots fighting game community. He used the situation with Nick to make a single point. He used the "black guy" incident to highlight the relative homogeneity of the crowd there. He talked about a lot of different aspects, he talked to a lot of people to get their ideas, and he put his thoughts to words. And of course, as I just said, HE NEVER SAID A COLLABORATION WOULDN'T WORK. His insistence on being mad about things that were never said makes him look like a buffoon.
"I'm gonna tell you as an adult, every event I do in the world...I may invite McDonald's and IBM and everything, and everybody's got a little complaint about something that could be better. But, you know what? It's done, and we all move on to the next year, because we have bigger things to do. They may not have worked perfectly, but in the adult world--especially in the adult business world--this is not personal. This is about making things better so everybody can profit."
Alright, nevermind that he never answered Spooky's question. Nevermind that he's basically dismissing the grievances of the Evo side with no acknowledgment by just saying "business, not personal." The part that really set me off when listening to this is how this clown had the nerve to talk down to someone, especially when he didn't bother to do the most basic, fundamental part of his own job and read the article he intended to discuss.
As an adult. Really? In the adult world. Are you freaking kidding me? You're seriously talking to a 31-year-old entrepreneur like he's a child? "Yeah, I'm going to not answer your question, because that small potatoes stuff doesn't matter with us grownups, we have other stuff to do." Right, I'm sure you have that attitude when the bank you do business with overcharges you on fees, or the restaurant you do business with undercooks your food, etc. Hey, business, never personal, right? To dismiss a legitimate gripe as a petty grudge is just garbage. If you don't think it's legit, you explain your side, or you extend a hand and offer to make things better going forward. You don't blow it off and say "well, we adults wouldn't be worried about that." It's insulting, counterproductive, and just plain stupid. Oh, and you know what people do in the "adult world?" Adults with radio shows/podcasts who plan to discuss an article typically read the article they plan to talk about.
And then people wonder why the fighting game community is apprehensive about dealing with these organizations and question whether they have our best interests at heart? Come on. I know this guy doesn't represent esports as a whole, but that is exactly the kind of attitude that makes the scene pensive.
Beyond that, he also suggested that he's suspicious that they're just trying to protect their own interests, both Tom and David. How does UltraDavid benefit from the scene growing more gradually? He's a (primarily unpaid) commentator and an attorney with clients in the scene. How would greater exposure not benefit him? What possible agenda could he have in encouraging the scene to emphasize community over money?
So, with all that in mind, I have no idea how you can actually think Jerry looked good in any way, shape, or form.
The fact that you started by correcting a single spelling mistake already sets this off on the wrong foot.
You certainly put a whole bunch of words in my mouth that I don't ever recall saying. Was me saying I don't agree with all his points misinterpreted as, "I agree with all of his points?"
Where the dude on the podcast 100% hit the nail on the head is that they should be looking for a way to work together properly, not looking for reasons they can't. Ultradavid's article was not directly opposed to leagues and whatnot, obviously, but it certainly wasn't setting out good ideas on how to do things.
Ironically, the point that you brush over the quickest is one I happen to actually agree with (while all of the other points you seemed to think I agreed with him about I don't). I actually think it is very territorial, even if subconscious. When the debate first really started, months ago, one of the primary things that was talked about was how people didn't want to see Spooky and other tournament organizers/casters/streamers pushed out of the loop. I think that, even if they rationalize away from that, is still in the back of their minds. I think the FGC and some of its members specifically want to succeed on their own terms so it can be used as a pedestal to prove how awesome and right they were in history's eyes. Never mind that there is an opportunity staring them in the face; if they avoid it then they can still have their day in the sun.
Now, I'm not saying they're all selfish and looking to better only their own stock. Far from it. I just happen to think that, of the arguments he posed, that one actually makes a lot of sense. Where I really backed him up was the simple idea that everybody should be striving actively to work together, not to be fearful of what could go wrong. UD obviously sees this as an option, but a lot of other members in the FGC are much, much more reserved and UD's article reads much more like a warning, rather than a hopeful or spirited message.
Now, the primary way this podcast debate was a miniaturized version of the debate (notice how in that post I never mentioned UD's article?) is the attitude that both sides took. VvV dude was pushing, pushing, pushing to get the esports point across and all of its glory while Spooky was taking an emotional stance primarily built around 1 community figure. It's the big bad Walmart coming to town to push the mom-and-pop corner store out of business as far as many are concerned.
Well its good article, but i feel its acurate only in regards to US. I mean here (In eastern Europe) fighting games are the rich kids games (consoles+games are really expansive while PC +pirating games isnt). Cs and SC (to less the degree) are games for "poor" kids. But maybe i will start from the begining.
There are almost no arcades in Poland, they used to be, they were pretty popluar and atracting a lot of diverse people just like Ultradavid said, but they disappered after few years, i would wager it had something to do with laws,taxation and involvment of organized crime, but i am just guessing.
Anyway those poeple who played at arcades moved on to PC caffes as we call them or pc bangs if You like. You just paid for an hour, and played...what were u playing? Duke,C&C, NFS, Quake, later SC and CS, a lot of different kids, i used to frequent those before i got internet at home, and so did a lot of kids from so called middle class. They were located (pca bangs) mainly in centre of the city, so we had to get there by bus (not that i live in suburbs just not in the middle of the town). Just stating this so You know we had to put effort to get there. Of course we met a lot of kids from centre town, usually poor, poorer then us, they had no money to play, so they borrowed it (and never gave it back), or steal it...they would just go out, when their time was up, for few minutes, rob some kid on the street that came to the center of town to party (those PC bangs were located right next to clubs and pubs) and come back to play. There were usually no violence involved but threat of it...anyway. Some of those poor center town kids were selliing drugs, most of them were using it (amphetamine), thats a drug that coincidently works great with all night long cs or sc gaming. Some of my friends got into drugs that way, some of them got into some serious debts over gaming. Anyway most of us stoped frequenting those when we got installed interent at home. Those who werent so lucky...well they stayed there. So once interent got cheaper scene got more diveresed, middle class people joined, but roots are pretty much in those pc bangs, and that roots stay strong.
Thats pretty much the orgins of eastern europe sc and cs..thats the way Poland was so strong in bw, and was becoming stronger the longer bw was out. It was old game, You dont need expansive rig to play bw, that way polish bw scene is still living, some people just cant aford rig to play sc2...its changing as sc2 is becoming older, and you can play it on cheaper rig but still....
Just look at most succesfull polish cs team (pantagram,again,fx or esc now) i dont want to hate, i love these guys! But just look at them, you can see they have different history than fnatic or mtw. Do you guys remeber what Rekrul or some other guys were saying about Suncow when he was in Korea? Do You recall the amount of hatred, bm and other shit that was present whenever polteam (polish bw team) were playing? Polish sc an cs scenes are "diverse" in sense that Ultradavid used.
Just using it as oportunity to explain that sc and even more cs are polish equivalent of what FGC is in USA. Poor kids game. That of course is huge generalization, but is largly true i feel. One more example, i recall that some of known (not respected but known) members of polish comunity were once caught stealing gear from sc LAN. Can u imagine it? Basicly stealing from the game You love, the game You play....Different background.
On December 15 2011 17:54 I_Love_Bacon wrote: The fact that you started by correcting a single spelling mistake already sets this off on the wrong foot.
You certainly put a whole bunch of words in my mouth that I don't ever recall saying. Was me saying I don't agree with all his points misinterpreted as, "I agree with all of his points?"
Pots, kettles, etc. When did I put any words in your mouth at all, much less a whole bunch? You said you came away thinking Jerry looked better than Spooky, in spite of the fact that most of Jerry's comments were ignorant at best and insulting at worst. I said that I could understand if you didn't read the article, but if you read the article and understood all the falsehood and nonsense Jerry was spewing, I don't know how you could come away thinking he looked better than Spooky (and it doesn't help that he would barely let Spooky get a word in, either). At no time did I ever say you agreed with everything he said, or even any particular thing.
On December 15 2011 17:54 I_Love_Bacon wrote: Where the dude on the podcast 100% hit the nail on the head is that they should be looking for a way to work together properly, not looking for reasons they can't. Ultradavid's article was not directly opposed to leagues and whatnot, obviously, but it certainly wasn't setting out good ideas on how to do things.
That's the thing: nobody is "looking for reasons they can't." That's a complete copout. Neither of the articles in question was about finding reasons not to do it. They were explaining why it hasn't happened yet. They were essentially giving pro leagues a checklist of things to avoid if they were going to approach the scene's players/organizers/producers, etc Up until now, leagues weren't trying to get involved and figure out what the community wants and needs, but figures in the esports community were more than happy to throw around stories about how we're holding ourselves back, which is nonsense. I don't think many of us, if any of us, are against bigger payouts, but the priority is on community over money all the way.
Incidentally, nobody in the fighting game community was even thinking about this stuff until Scoots decided to make a fool of himself on LO3 with that rant of his, basically accusing the Evo staff of intentionally holding back the community so they can be the big boys on the block. Inkblot wrote that first article in response to essentially having mud slung in his face. Before that, people were just playing games and minding our business. Fighting game chats were full of fighting game discussion, watching fighting game streams, watching sc2 streams (yes, fighting game players watch and enjoy SC2), and general whateverness.
And UltraDavid's article didn't say "here's how we can make leagues and our community work" because that wasn't the purpose of the article. Why would you even expect that? MLG isn't going to come to Ultradavid and say "hey, tell these guys what we want." The point was that they need to come to the community and find out what we want if they want to work with us. They need to do a better job of explaining their position and what they have to offer if they want to work with us. Rarely is the message from the pro-league side anything other than the fact that some fraction of a percent of our players may be able to quit their jobs, which is great for that fraction of a percent but doesn't tell the rest of us anything.
On December 15 2011 17:54 I_Love_Bacon wrote: Ironically, the point that you brush over the quickest is one I happen to actually agree with (while all of the other points you seemed to think I agreed with him about I don't). I actually think it is very territorial, even if subconscious. When the debate first really started, months ago, one of the primary things that was talked about was how people didn't want to see Spooky and other tournament organizers/casters/streamers pushed out of the loop. I think that, even if they rationalize away from that, is still in the back of their minds. I think the FGC and some of its members specifically want to succeed on their own terms so it can be used as a pedestal to prove how awesome and right they were in history's eyes. Never mind that there is an opportunity staring them in the face; if they avoid it then they can still have their day in the sun.
Now, I'm not saying they're all selfish and looking to better only their own stock. Far from it. I just happen to think that, of the arguments he posed, that one actually makes a lot of sense. Where I really backed him up was the simple idea that everybody should be striving actively to work together, not to be fearful of what could go wrong. UD obviously sees this as an option, but a lot of other members in the FGC are much, much more reserved and UD's article reads much more like a warning, rather than a hopeful or spirited message.
Yeah, once again, I wasn't saying you agreed with anything. I was pointing out how much bullcrap he was spewing and questioning how you could think he came off looking good at all, considering. And I "brushed over" this part because it had nothing to do with what I was talking about.
Jerry talked a lot about the business world--excuse, me, the *adult* business world. I wonder why he doesn't grasp simple business concepts such as risk management. Not being fearful of what could go wrong in a business dealing is, well, stupid. That's what you do in business. You evaluate risks and take or avoid action based on your assessment of that risk. If he judges that as some form of dangerous fear, well, that just goes along with all the other dumb things he apparently believes. He also doesn't seem to understand the concept of leverage, which I hear is popular in the "adult business world" as well.
Both sides should be striving to work together, you say. Well, maybe. Fighting games have grown tremendously in the last two years, and there's no indication that growth is going to stop. More streams, more media, more sponsorships, more teams, and all without any interaction with pro leagues. Is it as far along as other games? No. Is it advancing faster than other games? Hell yes. The 2012 Evo Tournament Season should be announced within a month or so. The games for Evo 2012, as well. Tournament organizers are making plans 6-12 months in advance to make this year's editions of their tournaments exponentially better than last year's. So the FGC doesn't necessarily need a pro league to grow. It can continue to do what it has been doing and grow still. Sure, it could use a league as fertilizer, but there's nothing wrong with staying organic, either.
On December 15 2011 17:54 I_Love_Bacon wrote: Where the dude on the podcast 100% hit the nail on the head is that they should be looking for a way to work together properly, not looking for reasons they can't. Ultradavid's article was not directly opposed to leagues and whatnot, obviously, but it certainly wasn't setting out good ideas on how to do things.
That's the thing: nobody is "looking for reasons they can't." That's a complete copout. Neither of the articles in question was about finding reasons not to do it. They were explaining why it hasn't happened yet. They were essentially giving pro leagues a checklist of things to avoid if they were going to approach the scene's players/organizers/producers, etc Up until now, leagues weren't trying to get involved and figure out what the community wants and needs, but figures in the esports community were more than happy to throw around stories about how we're holding ourselves back, which is nonsense. I don't think many of us, if any of us, are against bigger payouts, but the priority is on community over money all the way.
Incidentally, nobody in the fighting game community was even thinking about this stuff until Scoots decided to make a fool of himself on LO3 with that rant of his, basically accusing the Evo staff of intentionally holding back the community so they can be the big boys on the block. Inkblot wrote that first article in response to essentially having mud slung in his face. Before that, people were just playing games and minding our business. Fighting game chats were full of fighting game discussion, watching fighting game streams, watching sc2 streams (yes, fighting game players watch and enjoy SC2), and general whateverness.
And UltraDavid's article didn't say "here's how we can make leagues and our community work" because that wasn't the purpose of the article. Why would you even expect that? MLG isn't going to come to Ultradavid and say "hey, tell these guys what we want." The point was that they need to come to the community and find out what we want if they want to work with us. They need to do a better job of explaining their position and what they have to offer if they want to work with us. Rarely is the message from the pro-league side anything other than the fact that some fraction of a percent of our players may be able to quit their jobs, which is great for that fraction of a percent but doesn't tell the rest of us anything.
I think there is revisionist history being done and basically fear mongering by the part of many of the community figures and players regarding this. I don't think it's a copout at all to suggest that people are looking for reasons they can't. All you have to do is go to Shoryuken and read through the forums and find out the reasons that people disagree with joining up with MLG and some of the ridiculous stuff they worry about (including the ridiculously petty argument about possibly being lied to by Adam, which is as retarded as it is inane), while putting no effort into learning the facts. I also think to suggest that MLG in particular in the past weren't figuring out what the community wants is 100% incorrect. The way they ran both Melee/Brawl and Tekken were completely accepted by all 3 communities. They had refs, organizers, broadcasters, etc, all who were familiar with the scenes and helped organize/design how things would work. Throwing out a blanket statement that leagues weren't trying to get input I have a hard time buying unless somebody comes in with specific examples (bearing in mind that WCG and Dreamhack are not leagues). I want to hear about the time some league came and told you guys to bend over and prepare your anuses for the raping you all were about to receive, if not it's empty accusations.
The reason I say UD's article should be about how to work together is because it's productive. That is why I so largely agreed with the vVv guy's point when dealing with that particular topic. It shouldn't be about past problems. It shouldn't be about fighting for control. It shouldn't be about worries of culture clash. It should be about how do we make things better. How do we improve the FGC through joining the leagues? How would we make things actually work, instead of listing a bunch of perils and things to worry about?
I think my biggest issue with a lot of the bigger names in the FGC or people in general who disagree is because they harbor a mentality of community vs everybody else. The problem is, the actual FGC isn't that large. The thousands and thousands of people who watch streams aren't even considered members of the community that they love to watch. The "arcade mentality" doesn't even exist in most of the people who play fighting games because they died off ages ago, despite the fact that some of the longstanding members might harbor those feelings.
I like the stance that Day9 has preached for a long time about converting people to Starcraft in talking about how if somebody asks him, "Why do you like starcraft?" that he instead changes the question to, "How can you not like starcraft? It's awesome." I think that fundamental problem permeates throughout the FGC community. They want to grow, but I don't think people in the community really get why. They like where things are, and they like where things are going... But I don't think they really have this appreciation of wanting to see it blow up and even more and more people enjoy their game and respect/love what they do. The more I write and think about that point in particular the weirder it seems, but the more truthful it sounds to me. The very fact that so many people seem to struggle with figuring out what MLG/leagues offer says something deeper about the FGC. You mean, more money and the chance to have more exposure to your awesome games isn't reason enough?
Jerry talked a lot about the business world--excuse, me, the *adult* business world. I wonder why he doesn't grasp simple business concepts such as risk management. Not being fearful of what could go wrong in a business dealing is, well, stupid. That's what you do in business. You evaluate risks and take or avoid action based on your assessment of that risk. If he judges that as some form of dangerous fear, well, that just goes along with all the other dumb things he apparently believes. He also doesn't seem to understand the concept of leverage, which I hear is popular in the "adult business world" as well.
Maybe you can answer this one, because in all of my readings I've still never really found an answer that I consider remotely acceptable:
What are the risks?
The only "risks" I've read or been able to think are very, very shallow. 1: There's no hype. So the game doesn't do well, dies, and returns to exactly where it was. 2: It hurts smaller, community tournaments. So do majors. They draw people from their local scenes to play in bigger, more prestigious events... This is no different. 3: Possible conflicting dates. Work together in advance, realize that a compromise (probably on the FGC's end because MLG has much, much more to consider) is probably needed. 4: Keeping an open format. This is a very speculative argument because it's entirely fearful of a tournament structure for a game that MLG hasn't announced. 5: Fewer non-tournament games/No just free to play areas. This is simply something that can't be accommodated. There is a lack of space at MLG and the people going ahead of time just have to accept that it's going to be probably entirely about the tournament. There are still plenty of other tournaments with plenty of time/area to play at, this just probably wouldn't be one. Keep in mind, that this is also still speculation. Perhaps with the additional funding MLG will clearly be rolling in from its best year ever they'll find a way to operate on an even larger scale and include some space for f2p area.
Both sides should be striving to work together, you say. Well, maybe. Fighting games have grown tremendously in the last two years, and there's no indication that growth is going to stop. More streams, more media, more sponsorships, more teams, and all without any interaction with pro leagues. Is it as far along as other games? No. Is it advancing faster than other games? Hell yes. The 2012 Evo Tournament Season should be announced within a month or so. The games for Evo 2012, as well. Tournament organizers are making plans 6-12 months in advance to make this year's editions of their tournaments exponentially better than last year's. So the FGC doesn't necessarily need a pro league to grow. It can continue to do what it has been doing and grow still. Sure, it could use a league as fertilizer, but there's nothing wrong with staying organic, either.
Fighting games are advancing faster than MLG(not a game specifically, but as a whole because of their product) or League of Legends? I certainly wouldn't make that argument.
I think the most level-headed argument/discussion that comes from the FGC is the one you touch on lastly which basically boils down to, "Given our growth, why should we go to MLG when we can do our own thing?"
I don't get why you can't do both. I just don't see how "grow your own community" and "join mlg" are mutually exclusive. I've never understood why people can't just see as MLG as another group of tournaments they can attend, even if they're not exactly what the people are used to. The only legitimate fear I can see from that is that sponsors instead throw their money into MLG instead of the other FGC... but I'd have to think the market for both games is nearly identical and it's fairly clear that MLG simply has more to offer at this point anyway, so assuming a sponsor knows about both, the reason to toss bucks into the FGC certainly seems like a worse ROI than MLG.
One final thing I did want to mention, for the sake of the discussion since you're level headed, is that I'll retract my statement about the vVv podcast. I might disagree with Spooky's stance and his attitude, but I certainly don't agree with the other guy's stances/attitude either. I think his point of working towards unity is correct, but it's also insanely hypocritical given some of the shit he slung and his attitude about the whole thing. He was attempting to throw gasoline on the fire and succeeded.
Does the FGC absolutely need the big leagues? No. Do the big leagues need the FGC? most definitely yes. Just as much as SC2 doesnt need the leagues either but the leagues most definitely need SC2. In fact the dependance that esports has on SC2 in no way makes me happy but that's another story.
Super interesting. I know it's off-topic, but I like the EVO and MLG streams the exact same. But they are decidedly different. Sometimes I love the atmosphere that Starcraft's commentators and crowds bring to the game, but sometimes I want to see the excitement of 10,000 people going inside in a Las Vegas lobby on the EVO stream. I agree that it's tough to bring the two scenes together, but probably not impossible.
On December 16 2011 03:10 I_Love_Bacon wrote: The reason I say UD's article should be about how to work together is because it's productive. That is why I so largely agreed with the vVv guy's point when dealing with that particular topic. It shouldn't be about past problems. It shouldn't be about fighting for control. It shouldn't be about worries of culture clash. It should be about how do we make things better. How do we improve the FGC through joining the leagues? How would we make things actually work, instead of listing a bunch of perils and things to worry about?
This is productive, or at least, ends a lot of arguments. People always ask "Hey, FGs are growing exponentially, but the money isn't in it like it is with SC2. Why?" When we analyze the differences in the growth of each scene, we learn what we can and we can't do. We learn why certain things work with other games and why they don't with others. I think it's a very brazen statement to tell somebody what they were supposed to write when they did it on their own volition, to summarize arguments, and to see how to move forward while acknowledging what's different.
I think my biggest issue with a lot of the bigger names in the FGC or people in general who disagree is because they harbor a mentality of community vs everybody else. The problem is, the actual FGC isn't that large. The thousands and thousands of people who watch streams aren't even considered members of the community that they love to watch. The "arcade mentality" doesn't even exist in most of the people who play fighting games because they died off ages ago, despite the fact that some of the longstanding members might harbor those feelings.
The "arcade mentality" exists because of how local each scene is. Even when you don't have an actual arcade, those small public gatherings where you call up all your friends and play some Street Fighter, the nature of the game leads to those kinds of feelings. I also don't get how you seem to think you need some sort of membership card to be accepted in the community. If you watch a stream, talk about it with friends, etc., you ARE part of the community. It's only when outsiders who want to make their own rules and bring in their own people while disregarding the fans and what it made it popular... it's only then that people are separated into "community" and "non-community." It's like the XFL. They made their own rules and disregarded what made football popular, ended up backpedaling when their rules were dangerous and no one gave a damn about the cheerleaders locker room, and failed miserably... ignoring all the football culture in place from the NCAA and the NFL.
I like the stance that Day9 has preached for a long time about converting people to Starcraft in talking about how if somebody asks him, "Why do you like starcraft?" that he instead changes the question to, "How can you not like starcraft? It's awesome." I think that fundamental problem permeates throughout the FGC community. They want to grow, but I don't think people in the community really get why. They like where things are, and they like where things are going... But I don't think they really have this appreciation of wanting to see it blow up and even more and more people enjoy their game and respect/love what they do. The more I write and think about that point in particular the weirder it seems, but the more truthful it sounds to me. The very fact that so many people seem to struggle with figuring out what MLG/leagues offer says something deeper about the FGC. You mean, more money and the chance to have more exposure to your awesome games isn't reason enough?
I think the biggest concern that MLG has is clearing it lawfully through Capcom, which is like what Blizzard did with Brood War in Korea. (We don't care, do as you want, we don't need any contracts it's all good. Oh wait you're selling broadcasting rights? Time to jump in and sue! Money is ours! You have no contract!) That's the only thing holding them back. Most of the top players want to give it a shot and if it sucks then we can move on. The fundamental concern from the players is that the product they offer is not what we're used to. We don't want to watch some best of 7 rounds, 1 match, single elim bracket with only top players invited and no open play, commentated by a clueless Adam Sessler who has never experienced the game at this level. Whether that's going to be solved, we're not sure... but that is the main concern.
The only "risks" I've read or been able to think are very, very shallow. 2: It hurts smaller, community tournaments. So do majors. They draw people from their local scenes to play in bigger, more prestigious events... This is no different. 3: Possible conflicting dates. Work together in advance, realize that a compromise (probably on the FGC's end because MLG has much, much more to consider) is probably needed.
I think of the damage caused by players not being attend majors. I remember last year, SoCal Regionals took place on the same day as CEO. Imagine that, but now imagine that no top players attend majors. Majors get less money, meaning they can't put on good events, meaning less attendance, and it spirals downward. And if leagues turn out to be crappy or not to our liking, there will be a rebuilding period.
5: Fewer non-tournament games/No just free to play areas. This is simply something that can't be accommodated. There is a lack of space at MLG and the people going ahead of time just have to accept that it's going to be probably entirely about the tournament. There are still plenty of other tournaments with plenty of time/area to play at, this just probably wouldn't be one. Keep in mind, that this is also still speculation. Perhaps with the additional funding MLG will clearly be rolling in from its best year ever they'll find a way to operate on an even larger scale and include some space for f2p area.
I don't think is a problem given that MLG usually finds hotels that lets you plug in systems and FGC groups routinely rent out suites to host after hours events where all the open play happens. If you haven't attended Evo, basically lots of people wander the hotel rooms looking for matches.
I think overall people want to see the game blow up; they just don't want to surrender a lot of the rules and culture of the events that are currently held. Because of BW blowing up in Korea, I think people generally had an idea of how SC2 was supposed to be run for it to be successful regarding the rules and the culture. It's completely different for fighting games where every time we see a review or they try to put it on TV or something and talk about it, it's always hideously represented or reviewed and they never see it from the same perspective we do. You'll never hear someone call SC2 a button masher, and the only people who say it lacks skill are crazy BW fanatics like me. Yet you hear it routinely for any fighting game. I think it's that kind of opinion that the general public holds of fighting games and why it's absolutely essential that you integrate the current scene if you want to have any success in leagues.
Holy crap, kainzero, you just saved me like 800 words. I am literally deleting a whole bunch of stuff I was in the process of typing because you said it better, and before, I could. (It was ReveLAtions, though, not SCR. Point stands, though.)
Even if MLG allowed casual matches in the venue, they'd probably actively seek to ban "money matches", which are an important part of fighting game events. Top placing players in major events often make more money from these matches than the actual tournament winnings (especially Japanese players). Also some of the most hype matches in the history of fighting games were money matches (#1 probably being Neo vs Clockwork FT15 in MvC2).
It's just very difficult to fit the FGC culture to an organization like MLG without completely watering it down.
On December 16 2011 03:10 I_Love_Bacon wrote: I think there is revisionist history being done and basically fear mongering by the part of many of the community figures and players regarding this. I don't think it's a copout at all to suggest that people are looking for reasons they can't. All you have to do is go to Shoryuken and read through the forums and find out the reasons that people disagree with joining up with MLG and some of the ridiculous stuff they worry about (including the ridiculously petty argument about possibly being lied to by Adam, which is as retarded as it is inane), while putting no effort into learning the facts. I also think to suggest that MLG in particular in the past weren't figuring out what the community wants is 100% incorrect. The way they ran both Melee/Brawl and Tekken were completely accepted by all 3 communities. They had refs, organizers, broadcasters, etc, all who were familiar with the scenes and helped organize/design how things would work. Throwing out a blanket statement that leagues weren't trying to get input I have a hard time buying unless somebody comes in with specific examples (bearing in mind that WCG and Dreamhack are not leagues). I want to hear about the time some league came and told you guys to bend over and prepare your anuses for the raping you all were about to receive, if not it's empty accusations.
On December 16 2011 03:10 I_Love_Bacon wrote: I think my biggest issue with a lot of the bigger names in the FGC or people in general who disagree is because they harbor a mentality of community vs everybody else. The problem is, the actual FGC isn't that large. The thousands and thousands of people who watch streams aren't even considered members of the community that they love to watch. The "arcade mentality" doesn't even exist in most of the people who play fighting games because they died off ages ago, despite the fact that some of the longstanding members might harbor those feelings.
This I completely disagree with. Just because there aren't arcades doesn't mean there is no arcade spirit. That spirit migrated from actual arcades to "crack sessions" on console to tournaments of all sizes. Pass the stick is every bit as legit as putting your quarter up. You play for pride, you play to test and to prove yourself, and you earn respect through that play, and you do it all in person against another person sitting next to you. You don't have to be in an arcade to maintain that feeling, and it is incredibly different from the spectator-oriented, netplay-focused scenes of other games. I really think a lot of the misunderstanding comes from the fact that fighting games necessitate an in-person, local playing experience, and also because the community is overwhelmingly players who are active to some degree.
On December 16 2011 03:10 I_Love_Bacon wrote: I like the stance that Day9 has preached for a long time about converting people to Starcraft in talking about how if somebody asks him, "Why do you like starcraft?" that he instead changes the question to, "How can you not like starcraft? It's awesome." I think that fundamental problem permeates throughout the FGC community. They want to grow, but I don't think people in the community really get why. They like where things are, and they like where things are going... But I don't think they really have this appreciation of wanting to see it blow up and even more and more people enjoy their game and respect/love what they do. The more I write and think about that point in particular the weirder it seems, but the more truthful it sounds to me. The very fact that so many people seem to struggle with figuring out what MLG/leagues offer says something deeper about the FGC. You mean, more money and the chance to have more exposure to your awesome games isn't reason enough?
More money for whom? People talk about "the players' making more money, but that only applies really to a fraction of a percent of players. Okay, then what? How does that benefit the scene outside of those players? I don't think Tekken@MLG was a bad experience overall, but I know that Aris has said that players stopped wanting to go to non-MLG events because they could only travel so much, and the money was better. When MLG dropped Tekken, they were back to square one, only with more of the game's life lost. It doesn't appear they gained any significant number of new players from the whole thing, either.
Honestly, a lot of players don't care that much about exposure if it doesn't help the scene. I know that, right now, if I go to a tournament and Justin Wong is there, I have a chance to play him, whether we meet in tournament or in casuals. It doesn't matter that he's a legend. Until KO appears on the screen, we're equals. That most likely doesn't happen at an MLG. The degree to which those experiences are limited is up for debate, but it would unquestionably be more restricted.
I also know that community majors are great to go to because I know I will be in a room full of people who love fighting games, playing fighting games. Also, because I've been to them. when I went to Final Round 2 and a half years ago, which was my first major tournament, there were side tournaments in lots of other games. I got games in in things I've been wanting to play with people for years but couldn't because the local scene was limited and netplay is still pretty bad. People go to majors to test themselves and to find new people to play against, in and out of tournament. People who don't even play the big games go because when people who love fighters gather, there are almost always going to be some chances to play other games that you do play, even if they aren't in an official tournament.
Case in point: Frieda is one of the best Japanese MvC3 players. He's also the Japanese national champion in another game called Daemon's Bride, and was an SBO top finisher in Arcana Heart 2 and 3. At Evo this year there was an Arcana Heart 3 side tournament. Frieda was the victor, but he had a tough fight. So, the largest AH3 tournament on American soil, featuring a Japanese elite player, was only able to happen because the scene's largest event is such an ardent supporter of all fighting games, even those that aren't featured in the tournament. That's a scenario that could never happen at a league event.
You can say "yeah, well, you can go to your own tournaments, they're not going anywhere." Maybe so, but they could take players from the other tournaments. It's bad enough when majors within our scene are in conflict like ReveLAtions and CEO were last year. Having an outside organization waving big checks at top players holds an inherent risk to those community events, their attendance, and their growth. Note I am not saying this is an insurmountable obstacle, but it most certainly exists.
On December 16 2011 03:10 I_Love_Bacon wrote: Maybe you can answer this one, because in all of my readings I've still never really found an answer that I consider remotely acceptable:
What are the risks?
The only "risks" I've read or been able to think are very, very shallow. 1: There's no hype. So the game doesn't do well, dies, and returns to exactly where it was. 2: It hurts smaller, community tournaments. So do majors. They draw people from their local scenes to play in bigger, more prestigious events... This is no different. 3: Possible conflicting dates. Work together in advance, realize that a compromise (probably on the FGC's end because MLG has much, much more to consider) is probably needed. 4: Keeping an open format. This is a very speculative argument because it's entirely fearful of a tournament structure for a game that MLG hasn't announced. 5: Fewer non-tournament games/No just free to play areas. This is simply something that can't be accommodated. There is a lack of space at MLG and the people going ahead of time just have to accept that it's going to be probably entirely about the tournament. There are still plenty of other tournaments with plenty of time/area to play at, this just probably wouldn't be one. Keep in mind, that this is also still speculation. Perhaps with the additional funding MLG will clearly be rolling in from its best year ever they'll find a way to operate on an even larger scale and include some space for f2p area.
1. In my opinion this is relatively small, but I don't think you can dismiss the atmosphere players prefer to play in as "very, very shallow." 2. I have no idea how you come to this conclusion. FGC tournaments are like a pyramid. Evo is at the top, majors on the next level, regionals on another level, and local tournaments and gatherings at the bottom. Majors are kind of the point. Local scenes want to go to majors and play against more, better players. This is how the scene as a whole improves. It's not through tournament play alone, either. It's through casuals, money matches, long sets, and stuff like that that go on off stream and after hours. Community tournaments are the ideal training ground, especially in a country with such a geographical spread. 3. Obviously working around schedules would be necessary, but there's only so much MLG can do since they run several different games of different types with different scenes. 4. I feel somewhat confident they would go with a full open bracket, knowing that's what the FGC believes in. 5. As noted above, this is a much bigger deal for most of the actual playing scene than I think the average spectator can appreciate.
On December 16 2011 03:10 I_Love_Bacon wrote: Fighting games are advancing faster than MLG(not a game specifically, but as a whole because of their product) or League of Legends? I certainly wouldn't make that argument.
In the last two years, tournament attendance has increased three to tenfold, international attendance has increased dramatically, stream views have multiplied by up to twenty times, Evo attendance topping 3000 and millions of stream views, etc. Yes, I would say that is a higher rate of growth than in other games. Note I didn't say all other games. I'm just emphasizing that it's a very fast rate of growth.
On December 16 2011 03:10 I_Love_Bacon wrote: I think the most level-headed argument/discussion that comes from the FGC is the one you touch on lastly which basically boils down to, "Given our growth, why should we go to MLG when we can do our own thing?"
I don't get why you can't do both. I just don't see how "grow your own community" and "join mlg" are mutually exclusive. I've never understood why people can't just see as MLG as another group of tournaments they can attend, even if they're not exactly what the people are used to. The only legitimate fear I can see from that is that sponsors instead throw their money into MLG instead of the other FGC... but I'd have to think the market for both games is nearly identical and it's fairly clear that MLG simply has more to offer at this point anyway, so assuming a sponsor knows about both, the reason to toss bucks into the FGC certainly seems like a worse ROI than MLG.
Nobody's really saying you can't do both. I really don't understand that interpretation. The point is, and has always been, that if you want us to do both (because we are not going to give up on what we have), you have to come to us and show us that you care about our needs and concerns. We don't want to throw Final Round under the bus because a league wants one of our games. We don't want to show up and play under random or screwy rules. And more importantly, we don't have to, so it only makes sense to entertain that possibility if it's clearly to our benefit.
As to the last sentence, I think you just answered your own question. I would much rather sponsors throw money at Larry at Final Round, who has been busting his ass for 15 years putting on awesome tournaments for players to compete in. If a sponsor would rather give money to MLG, that doesn't help Larry at all. The answer, to me, is not "go to MLG because that's where the money is," but rather, "Help Larry, and Jebailey, and Valle, and Choi, and Keits, and Big E make their tournaments so big, so amazing that sponsors can't ignore them." That's harder to do if there's a fractured community. Mind you, I'm not saying that there WOULD be a fractured community. But it's possible, and it's not just a remote possibility, either.
If the top players are isolated from the rest of the community, the scene overall is hurt. It hurts other games that may not be as popular as the big two or three but also have followings as well. And, eventually, it could end up hurting those American top players' chances against international players. It's easy to say that our players would be able to compete at a higher level if they could quit their jobs and just play all day. That doesn't explain why Japan's median skill level is far above America's, even though their players are almost all working, in school, or both. Japan can't even legally have cash prizes for tournaments like the US can. Clearly money has next to nothing to do with why they're so strong. Who's to say money will make our players significantly stronger?
On December 16 2011 03:10 I_Love_Bacon wrote: One final thing I did want to mention, for the sake of the discussion since you're level headed, is that I'll retract my statement about the vVv podcast. I might disagree with Spooky's stance and his attitude, but I certainly don't agree with the other guy's stances/attitude either. I think his point of working towards unity is correct, but it's also insanely hypocritical given some of the shit he slung and his attitude about the whole thing. He was attempting to throw gasoline on the fire and succeeded.
Thank you. That was my initial point of contention, and I'm glad you now see where I was coming from.
On December 16 2011 03:10 I_Love_Bacon wrote:The reason I say UD's article should be about how to work together is because it's productive. That is why I so largely agreed with the vVv guy's point when dealing with that particular topic. It shouldn't be about past problems. It shouldn't be about fighting for control. It shouldn't be about worries of culture clash. It should be about how do we make things better. How do we improve the FGC through joining the leagues?
What an awful series of points, especially that last question. If someone who hasn't worked well with me in the past wants to work with me in the future, then I'm going to bring up the problems I had in the past and ask how this person is going to approach them and make sure they don't happen in the future. If I've worked for 20 years to build something and now someone else wants to get in on what I've done and take some of my control away, then I'm going to ask why that would make sense from my perspective, what's in it for me? If my culture hasn't gotten along with another culture very well and now our two cultures might be thrown together again, I'm going to highlight the differences between the two and their historical underpinnings so that everyone can understand each other better and figure out how to clash less.
And lastly, the question "How do we improve the FGC through joining the leagues" is a million miles away from where we are right now. Our question is only "How do we improve the FGC?" That's all. Your question assumes or implies a ton of things, not least that joining the leagues is the only way to improve, that the FGC has done a crappy job on its own, and that professional leagues are good for us. I wholeheartedly disagree with the first two. I think we're doing an awesome job. I think we'll keep doing an awesome job. I think we can improve on our own. As for the third, they can be good for us if they understand us and are willing to work with us in a way that maintains our identity, but if they don't, they can be bad for us. This is very important to understand.
I didn't write an article about ways that we could work together because that's not my focus right now. My focus is just about making sure that everyone understands everyone else. Understanding is the foundation of any successful cooperation, but it can also be a reason to not work together if both sides understand that they might not be able to get along. I think we CAN have a successful cooperation, and if the FGC as a whole or Capcom thinks we should do it and we're sure the pro leagues understand us and will cooperate well with us, then great! That would be great. But we're not starting anywhere near the idea that we need to work with pro leagues instead of keeping up what we're doing.
Why did I like Street Fighter even before I realized it was a strategy game?
There are online StarCraft 2 tournaments that can reach over 1000 people because the game is designed for and people expect to play on the internet. I’ve never entered an online tournament in my life and probably never will. What’s the point? To me, online play is ass.
So even though I’ve never touched Arcana Heart in my life, I still feel a sense of connection with AH players.[then later] Smash players tend not to have our arcade history,
How many AH arcades are around you, if any? (For those who don't know, Arcana Heart is a fighting game with only cartoon underage girls).
"But let me tell you a little about some of the other major people in this community. A couple have spent time living on the streets or in homeless shelters. A couple others have been in jail. Another was a drug addict famous for not paying people back. Actually, a few of them were like that. Some had really bad family situations with abuse, theft, jail, abandonment, and so on.
Again, if I’ve never seen you in this arcade before, then you’ve never earned my respect and it’s on you to give me reason to say what’s up.
Common decency or class too much to ask for? How hard is it to say "Hello" or shake the hand of a player that share the same passion for the game.
StarCraft had a weird community in North America during Brood War because even though very large numbers of people played or watched it regularly (including me), it didn’t engender the same attachment to community. It ran online tournaments with entrants into the 1000s, but they were online, where a sense of community is relatively weak.
Whereas, TeamLiquid tournament, WCG, etc just only had a sense of community from their supporting COUNTRIES.
Fighting games have consoles, monitors, sticks, pads, gaming related apparel, and lifestyle brands. That’s all!
With all this in mind, then, it’s not exactly rocket science that StarCraft blew up first. And in blowing up first, they’ve cracked into a market of pure spectators, people who never played Brood War and don’t play StarCraft 2 but watch SC2 broadcasts anyway. Those people have money and time on their hands and they represent even more money in everyone else’s pockets. Fighting games haven’t gotten anything like that yet.
Why don't they watch fighting games? Maybe they prefer watching Starcraft.
Some people think that our window of opportunity is now. If we don’t join up with professional leagues soon, they say, those leagues won’t want us in the future. I honestly don’t know what about our history and current trajectory makes anyone think this sounds right. After such consistent growth, why would we all of a sudden stop growing?
Was I jealous when I heard that commentators for other games can make up to $5000 per appearance while I’m over here working for gas money? Sure, but not nearly as much as you might think. I’m too in love with my community to wish I could trade places, and so is everyone else in the FGC.
On December 16 2011 03:10 I_Love_Bacon wrote:The reason I say UD's article should be about how to work together is because it's productive. That is why I so largely agreed with the vVv guy's point when dealing with that particular topic. It shouldn't be about past problems. It shouldn't be about fighting for control. It shouldn't be about worries of culture clash. It should be about how do we make things better. How do we improve the FGC through joining the leagues?
What an awful series of points, especially that last question. If someone who hasn't worked well with me in the past wants to work with me in the future, then I'm going to bring up the problems I had in the past and ask how this person is going to approach them and make sure they don't happen in the future. If I've worked for 20 years to build something and now someone else wants to get in on what I've done and take some of my control away, then I'm going to ask why that would make sense from my perspective, what's in it for me? If my culture hasn't gotten along with another culture very well and now our two cultures might be thrown together again, I'm going to highlight the differences between the two and their historical underpinnings so that everyone can understand each other better and figure out how to clash less.
And lastly, the question "How do we improve the FGC through joining the leagues" is a million miles away from where we are right now. Our question is only "How do we improve the FGC?" That's all. Your question assumes or implies a ton of things, not least that joining the leagues is the only way to improve, that the FGC has done a crappy job on its own, and that professional leagues are good for us. I wholeheartedly disagree with the first two. I think we're doing an awesome job. I think we'll keep doing an awesome job. I think we can improve on our own. As for the third, they can be good for us if they understand us and are willing to work with us in a way that maintains our identity, but if they don't, they can be bad for us. This is very important to understand.
I didn't write an article about ways that we could work together because that's not my focus right now. My focus is just about making sure that everyone understands everyone else. Understanding is the foundation of any successful cooperation, but it can also be a reason to not work together if both sides understand that they might not be able to get along. I think we CAN have a successful cooperation, and if the FGC as a whole or Capcom thinks we should do it and we're sure the pro leagues understand us and will cooperate well with us, then great! That would be great. But we're not starting anywhere near the idea that we need to work with pro leagues instead of keeping up what we're doing.
<3 Warp!
You sure put a lot of interpretation into "How do we improve the FGC through joining the leagues?" I don't think it's close to million miles away from where you are. I think you're merely misinterpreting what I mean at the very base level. I also didn't imply any of the things you seemed to suggest I did. How can the FGC take an opportunity like MLG or other leagues and use it to benefit themselves? That should be the question from the FGC's standpoint. Not a pessimistic approach as to how MLG is gonna' fuck something up, but how can we use this collaboration for our benefits? But the last part I've bolded is a part I'm still waiting for a legitimate explanation of. I've been waiting since this whole debate started to heat up months ago for a single real answer as to how it can be bad for the FGC. I'd expect you to have a coherent answer and I'd love to read it, because up until this point I've neither read nor heard a legitimate argument as to how it can be damaging to the FGC.
This also goes to the defensive aspect that I seriously see a lot of in the FGC. You throw up your shield and deflect the discussion to how great you're doing on your own. It's laudable and I don't mean that to sound at all condescending. But you immediately guard and point out that you've worked for years and ask why you should give up control? That shouldn't even be a question. MLG isn't taking over other tournaments and making everybody follow their rules, they're simply attempting to run their own tournament. I'm not stupid enough to accuse you or anybody else of being blatant obstructionists, but there is a sort of mentality that I've talked about where it constantly reads like a battle of Us-vs-Them. And, it also reads a lot like the argument that there are people who are specifically guarding their own stock in the community; not the community as a whole. Inadvertently or not, it definitely exists.
Your last paragraph is correct; that is not the article you wrote. Perhaps that's where a lot of these problems lie. I suppose I, and many others for that matter, are disappointed at what you didn't write: a long, fleshed out and in-depth examination as to why OR why not it should be done. You chose not to tackle that directly at the time, and perhaps it would've been better for everybody to merely abstain from debating about it and using the article for any purpose that was not as you described it as... information.
There are online StarCraft 2 tournaments that can reach over 1000 people because the game is designed for and people expect to play on the internet. I’ve never entered an online tournament in my life and probably never will. What’s the point? To me, online play is ass.
So even though I’ve never touched Arcana Heart in my life, I still feel a sense of connection with AH players.[then later] Smash players tend not to have our arcade history,
How many AH arcades are around you, if any? (For those who don't know, Arcana Heart is a fighting game with only cartoon underage girls).
"But let me tell you a little about some of the other major people in this community. A couple have spent time living on the streets or in homeless shelters. A couple others have been in jail. Another was a drug addict famous for not paying people back. Actually, a few of them were like that. Some had really bad family situations with abuse, theft, jail, abandonment, and so on.
StarCraft had a weird community in North America during Brood War because even though very large numbers of people played or watched it regularly (including me), it didn’t engender the same attachment to community. It ran online tournaments with entrants into the 1000s, but they were online, where a sense of community is relatively weak.
Whereas, TeamLiquid tournament, WCG, etc just only had a sense of community from their supporting COUNTRIES.
With all this in mind, then, it’s not exactly rocket science that StarCraft blew up first. And in blowing up first, they’ve cracked into a market of pure spectators, people who never played Brood War and don’t play StarCraft 2 but watch SC2 broadcasts anyway. Those people have money and time on their hands and they represent even more money in everyone else’s pockets. Fighting games haven’t gotten anything like that yet.
Why don't they watch fighting games? Maybe they prefer watching Starcraft.
Some people think that our window of opportunity is now. If we don’t join up with professional leagues soon, they say, those leagues won’t want us in the future. I honestly don’t know what about our history and current trajectory makes anyone think this sounds right. After such consistent growth, why would we all of a sudden stop growing?
Was I jealous when I heard that commentators for other games can make up to $5000 per appearance while I’m over here working for gas money? Sure, but not nearly as much as you might think. I’m too in love with my community to wish I could trade places, and so is everyone else in the FGC.
I love the fighting community. Drive 4 hours to the nearest tournament that's gonna start 2 hours late and end 4 hours late with money matches and people screaming over everything. However, I think people forget that sc2, just because it doesn't have lan, can be played at a lan party. Lan parties are awesome, you have a similar atmosphere, when it's the finals everyone's sitting at one projector screaming and talking to each other. It's just that the massive (and I mean massive, look at the stream bar right now) amount of money in online play took away from that. Yeah, sc1 had mostly online tournaments, but there were loads of lans, loads. I don't think the origins were as black and white as you paint it, but what the sc community has become opposed to the fighting community is quite different.
I think this is just a case of good intentions gone wrong. People want e-sports to grow as big as possible and sc2 was very very lucky to get as big as it did. (Maybe if brawl wasn't such a shit game when it got MLG sponsored it could've blown up, oops melee bias showing) And from this position that came from hard work but also good fortune we look at the games around us that we also like and think, "I love SSF" or "I love tekken" or "I love Soul Calibur" - "Why aren't they as successful as starcraft 2 in terms of money getting poured in?" Then they think "Well it's cause their leaders are doing it wrong, they should all be like Day9, or their forums should all be like Teamliquid" Yeah, as if it was that fucking easy for sc2 to get where it was, As if the leaders of those communities don't want to their community to explode as well.
There's a lot to be learned from both sides. I would love to go to a monthly sc lan and meet people who play sc, but it doesn't happen. Barcraft is awesome, but it's not a tournament. Online tournaments you just get crushed by some random who's ranked higher than you in ladder that you probably won't ever meet, it's completely different. Generating lots of fans that don't even play the game but just watches and degrees of professionalism can be injected to the fighting game community, though to choose between driving through a state to get to the nearest tournament and just play for a day before you have to drive back or having all those tournaments be online, the former is the obvious choice.
All it comes down to is answering a few questions:
Can Leagues run tournaments without conflicting with the community run majors? Even if it's not the same weekend, running it the next weekend would still cause a lot of people to choose either/or.
Can Leagues provide the same sort of setup that community run events provide? Extra stations setup for players to both play casuals and practice before getting to their games.
Will leagues allow the style of commentary that's already used? It's not a professional type of commentary, and it's not like starcraft where the crowd hears the commentators. Commentary is purely for the stream, and it's typical for people to just drop in and out on a whim to allow for various people to give their thoughts and insights. Especially certain players after they just finished playing a game.
Continuing with the commentary, would people like Yipes have to watch what they say? I love listening to someone like Yipes commentate Marvel, but I have a huge inkling that leagues wouldn't let his style fly.
Would Capcom even be willing to let leagues use their games anyway?
I mean, I get the idea that you can have both the leagues and the regular majors, and both can be different. However, I think most of the people in the fighting game community would rather the league tournaments be run like the majors. And that's where you get a lot of conflict. People don't want to feel like they're going to a watered down version of what the majors provide.
EPT
.
) BUT, theres always a but, I don't want the top players and the top commentators only, I also want Marn trolling everybody, and JuiceBox (FGC's own FirebatHero) and commentators like Yipes or Arturo, even ChrisHu and JaHa (o_O) FFS, in FGC stream trolling starts in the event and its SO FUN. They keep it FUN. 
